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Thread: AOPA Webpage fatal accident study

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    I will speak up as someone who has spent a thousand or so hours driving under-equipped light aircraft around in crappy weather amongst tall rocks. The first rule I learned was to expect that the weather forecast was just a guess and the winds and ceiling will, not may, be different. And expect Mother Nature to throw you a curve ball on a regular basis. Where you really need to know the weather, there will not be a reporting station. So always launch with a backup plan and a hard limit of what weather will trigger going to plan B.

    The second rule I learned was that when it was time to go to plan B, do it. You never every "gotta" get home today. The folks at a thousand small airports offer great sympathy and hospitality to wayward aviators. You meet wonderful people at unscheduled stops.

    Then I learned that I do not have to fly a straight line to get to my destination. Some days, running 100 miles in a different direction from my desired course line will allow me to get where I want to go rather than flying up to some bad weather and sitting stuck while a big glob of low ceilings takes its time moving overhead.

    Finally, the best decision making is done before you crank up and start taxiing. Know before your wheels leave the ground that it is OK to launch to look at the weather but decide before the throttle goes forward how just far you will go to look at the weather. Plan where you will go as soon as the weather gets worse than a limit you have set for yourself.

    If you can make yourself think about the enroute weather, make a plan, make a backup plan, and then make yourself follow the plans, you can work your way home through surprisingly challenging weather. But only if you understand that its a step-by-step process and that process does not guarantee that at the end of that day you will be at your destination airport. If you are flying an VFR airplane and absolutely have to get somewhere, drive or buy an airline ticket.

    In my small airplane travels, I have managed to cajole Mother Nature into letting me fly small airplanes with no equipment from Boston to San Francisco and from Montreal to Galveston. But Mother Nature is ruthless, gives the test before the lesson about it, and should always be viewed with a little paranoia as you study at her College of Aeronautical Knowledge.

    The only way to build experience is to fly. Don't fly the same one flight 1000 times. Fly 1000 different flights and build your knowledge one bit at a time.

    Merry Christmas,

    Wes
    N78PS
    This ^^

    This particular accident hits home for me, which is why I'm writing this instead of a postition article for NAFI Mentor Magazine. Part of it is because I fly in and out of Indianapolis fairly often (my wife's sister and her husband live about five minutes from Indy Metro). Part of it is because this accident occured in what I consider my "home turf" - I got my private certificate (not "license", although that's an argument for a different thread) at Waukegan Regional what seems like a million years ago and because I also work full time for the railroad that goes through that area.

    But more than that. Way back in May of 2000, my wife and I flew from St. Louis back to Waukegan to see family in the northern Chicago suburbs. There were two fronts, as I recall, that were joined together south of St. Louis and were formed a giant "V" that straddled our planned route of flight, with a separation of about 150 - 200 miles on either side of Chicago. I think they were both cold fronts, or the leading one was a cold front and the trailer was a warm front - the latter makes more sense to me, given the conditions.

    At Spirit of St. Louis, the bases were about 1,000, with reported tops of about 8,000. We filed for 9,000 and launched. At 9,000 feet were were literally right on top of a stratus layer. Looknig up, I could see stars - out to the left and right, I could see the reflection of our nav lights. It was like this most of the way to Chicago, although around Peoria, the tops did go down a little.

    As we were being handed off from Kansas City Center to Peoria Approach, I heard ATC say to a TWA flight "There's a VFR Bellanca stuck on top and he sounds scared - do you have time to help him?" I thought briefly about offering, but I wasn't a CFI at the time and the TWA flight was probably in a better position, crew-wise, to provide assistance. I also did not want to clutter the frequency needlessly. So, off to check in with Peoria.

    When we returned from St. Louis and were attending Missouri Pilot's Association picnic the following week, my instructor took me aside and asked me if I heard about the Bellanca that crashed over the weekend. With a sinking feeling, I told him no. It turns out that the non-instrument rated pilot and his passenger were killed in conditions that any instrument pilot wouldn't have tried at an airport without approaches - it would have been a challenge to land at the nearest airport with a precision approach.

    The reason that this grieves me is not that I could have saved the day by jumping on the radio - far from it. At the time, I would have had no business trying to do so, and I probably would have made matters worse. No, it's because the narrative seems depressingly familiar. There seems to be an ethos in this business where some people will push to do impossible things, given the limitations of themselves and/or their airplanes. I will say that even the most capable of transport category aircraft, be it Boeing, Airbus, Brazilia, whatever, can be brought down by bad judgement.

    Where am I going with this? I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I have far more respect for a pilot that has the courage to say "Nope, this ain't for me" then I do for the "pilot" that says "Whew - wasn't sure we were gonna make that one!" And it's not the number of hours. It is the quality of training, and, more importantly, the quality of thinking that goes into any flight, whether it's spinning around the patch or going on a transcontinental trip.

    As Wes said, there is no compelling reason to ever take off. Even if it means getting fired from your job because you're late. Those of you that are AOPA members can find an article I wrote in Flight Training where I tell the story of getting stuck for week at my in-laws because I simply refused to risk a flight I felt a simple 172 couldn't handle. No, I didn't get fired - in fact, a lot of people in my office were impressed that I had the moxie to say "Oh, well." To add to that, one thing I ask all of my students when it comes to marginal weather (which might be different for VFR and IFR training): "Show me the emergency take off procedure for that airplane."

    We, in GA, whether in the experimental faction or in the "spam can" world, must adopt the attitude the real pros, the airlines and business aviation communtiy, have and simply not fly beyond our capabilities. And the equipment and the airplane cannot replace judgement or skill - they are merely tools for our use, that's all.

    We also have to adopt a culture where it's OK to listen to our peers when they say "Are you sure about this?" Rod Machado, in his collection Plane Talk has an article entitled "Time to Speak Up" that touches on this. Even if we don't like what we hear, we have to take it into consideration. And the person that cares enough to say something shouldn't be treated as a meddler; instead they should be thanked for caring enough to say something, even if we disagree.

    OK, that was a bit disjointed, but I think you get the gist. Fly safely and encourage safe behavior, please, and have a wonderful New Year.
    Anxiety is nature's way of telling you that you've already goofed up.

  2. #52
    danielfindling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Meder View Post
    Fly safely and encourage safe behavior.
    This phrase should be an integral part of EAA's culture.

  3. #53

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    Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
    At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

    The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

    He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

    I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

    He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

    Conversation on the radio....

    Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

    Lynn....What happened?
    me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
    Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
    Me....That field right below me....
    Lynn...Yes...
    Me..OK
    Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
    Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
    Me....Pause..
    Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
    Me...OK.
    Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
    Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

    One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

    I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

    All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

    I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

    H.A.S
    P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

  4. #54
    Auburntsts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
    At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

    The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

    He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

    I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

    He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

    Conversation on the radio....

    Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

    Lynn....What happened?
    me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
    Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
    Me....That field right below me....
    Lynn...Yes...
    Me..OK
    Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
    Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
    Me....Pause..
    Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
    Me...OK.
    Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
    Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

    One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

    I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

    All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

    I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

    H.A.S
    P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol
    Ahhh context - a beautiful thing. This puts a lot of the discussion into perspective.
    Todd “I drink and know things” Stovall
    PP ASEL - IA
    RV-10 N728TT - Flying
    EAA Lifetime Member
    WAR DAMN EAGLE!

  5. #55
    Mayhemxpc's Avatar
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    Previous comments: IMC training in prep for PPL: Absolutely. It doesn't take much, just enough. As a CFI it is always fun to sit back, and look at the student's face as they penetrate the cloud. (Keep your hand ready to counteract the student's reaction to pull up.) It gives them a whole new perspective.

    The post about people not learning until they got scared enough. Oh, I love training teenage boys (CAP cadets.) They come at it as Flight Simulator aces. Takes what, 4 hours, before you can reach the point where they admit that they don't know how to fly? THEN they can learn. (You can't tell them, or show them. They have to figure it out for themselves.) Teenage girls are easier to teach. There is nothing sexist about that comment. It is entirely cultural. They don't come at it trying to prove to me that they already know how to fly. Saves the first 4 hours. The BEST is when the student does not yet have a driver's license. Little to "unlearn."

    Anyway, off topic, sorry.

    2 genuine engine failures due to fuel contamination and I unexpectedly ran a tank dry once (plenty of fuel in the other tank.) Landed on airport in the first, twin engine in the second (fortunately contamination was only in that tank) and for the third, OH it is amazing how fast you can go through the bold face "engine out" procedures. (And then feel like a fool.)

  6. #56
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post

    All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

    I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

    H.A.S
    P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol
    Yes, context does explain a lot, and I suspected your background was with non-certificated engines when I saw your signature. But man.....you have had a most unfortunate flying "career" even for someone flying two-strokes!

    I hope you are eventually able to relax and enjoy aviation, sounds like up to this point you haven't experienced the freedom and fun of aviation like most of us due to your "adventures" and understandable intimidation. And I encourage you to complete your private pilot training if you have not done so. This will do more than anything to instill confidence in your abilities and in the fact that most aircraft are not looking for an excuse to fall out from under us.

    Who knows, you might start having so much fun that you will revise your "1000 hr requirement" for sharing the skies with a passenger. It would be a shame for you to miss one of the most incredible aspects of flying our aerocraft
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 12-27-2012 at 08:51 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
    The RV Journal RV-6 build log
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  7. #57

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    I had a stator go bad on a rotax. This was in a Hi-Max. The plane and engine had 25 hrs on them. So off came the stator. I order a Brand New stator for this engine. If you never purchased one of these let me tell you they are not cheap.

    As soon as this Stator arrives I install it. I do a complete run up with the bird tied down, starting and running, then shutting down then doing it all over again. I ran her for about 1 hr on the ground. She always started right up and ran great.

    I untie the bird and go and taxi her. I spend another 30 mins taxing around doing crow hops. I shut her down, do another preflight and head to the runway thrushold.

    Check for traffic, slowly apply throttle and head down the runway. Just as I am getting ready to break gravity all went quiet. I knew right off what happened, and to say I was pissed was not saying enough.

    I pull the bird over and get out. Then I reach in and unplug my ignition module and plug it into the other side of the stator. She fires right up. I taxi to the hangar for I will not fly this bird with this engine.

    So off comes the engine and I buy a new engine then sell the bird. I was done with two strokes.

    Here is a short video of this bird. This is the new owner flying her right after he purchased her from me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGro7gJfy8

    H.A.S

  8. #58

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    I looked in my log book and I did fly that bird again before pulling that engine. I came back the next day and pulled her back out.

    After about 40 mins of flying above my field a freind " Lynn" flew in in his bird. I form up on his side and just as I do the engine goes almost to an idle. I head straight for the runway, as I land she stops running. I get out and the engine was siezed, it was then I was done with two strokes, that was engine out 6 in under 3 years.

    I believe it was fuel oil seperation, the rear cylinder siezed.

    H.A.S.

  9. #59
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    I fly safe and will not subject anyone to a low time pilot in the left seat as PIC. Just the way I do things. Say what you want, it does not bother me one bit....If this scares you, I feel for you......

    What scares me is a low time pilot acting as PIC.....Look at the statistics.....They speak volumes.......Its pilots that think this way that kill people.....

    You want to fly passengers there should be a min amount of logged hrs flying before you can take anyone up....

    I hope Steve from Indy rings in on this, he see's what a low time pilot will get you......KILLED is what it will get you.

    H.A.S.


    You must be better then me...Thats ok for I am sure you are the best.
    Either you're safe and stay within your limits or you're not. Taking 1000 hours of flight time to become safe is well behind the curve.
    Ryan Winslow
    EAA 525529
    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

  10. #60
    Flyfalcons's Avatar
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    Nevermind. I see from your other posts where your fear comes from. There is a clear distinction between someone who has received the bare minimum instruction necessary to fly an ultralight, and someone who has received actual instruction and completed their Private training (minimal as that may be too).
    Ryan Winslow
    EAA 525529
    Stinson 108-1 "Big Red", RV-7 under construction

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