Gyro House overhauled AI -- inop after 80 hours/18 months

On 10/03/14, I had a TGH Aviation (The Gyro House) overhauled Horizon Gyro installed in my mighty Cessna C-150, during an annual inspection at Magnum Aviation in San Martin, CA.
Last week, it crapped out and started tumbling. Directional Gyro works good. Suction good.
The unit had a 1000 hour/1 year warranty.
My mechanic says he will "have a talk with Gyro House."
I think Gyro House ought to back up their product and give me another one, or at least give me a major break in price.
WHAT SAY YOU?
I will report to all what happens.

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Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk

On 10/03/14, I had a TGH Aviation (The Gyro House) overhauled Horizon Gyro installed in my mighty Cessna C-150, during an annual inspection at Magnum Aviation in San Martin, CA.
Last week, it crapped out and started tumbling. Directional Gyro works good. Suction good.
The unit had a 1000 hour/1 year warranty.
My mechanic says he will "have a talk with Gyro House."
I think Gyro House ought to back up their product and give me another one, or at least give me a major break in price.
WHAT SAY YOU?
I will report to all what happens.

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How many Lives do you suppose that Cat had?

There is a reason that the FAA is willing to go against its own orthodoxy to move us away from watchmaker technology.


Ted

sounds to me like it was out of warranty so I don't think they owe you anything.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

sounds to me like it was out of warranty so I don't think they owe you anything.

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Technically speaking, you may be right. My mechanic is still checking this out. If (as I suspect) there is no problem with my vacuum system, filters are OK, and it is indeed simply a failed instrument, do you think 80 hours/18 months is a reasonable amount of time to expect this instrument to work? Or, would I have just cause to be dissatisfied? Should I just shut up and buy another one? Or, should I complain a little bit? Considering that it failed so soon after the warranty expired and with relatively few hours with absolutely no abuse (such as spins or unusual attitudes) should Gyro House stick to its warranty terms, or should they grant me some leeway, such as offering to rebuild the unit they sold me?

I would make sure the vacuum pump isn't beginning to fail & contaminating the system. I know of a plane that kept having gyros fail & the guys doing the maintenance on that plane just kept replacing them, after a vacuum pump failed (and both pumps were replaced) the problem went away.

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Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk

Technically speaking, you may be right. My mechanic is still checking this out. If (as I suspect) there is no problem with my vacuum system, filters are OK, and it is indeed simply a failed instrument, do you think 80 hours/18 months is a reasonable amount of time to expect this instrument to work? Or, would I have just cause to be dissatisfied? Should I just shut up and buy another one? Or, should I complain a little bit? Considering that it failed so soon after the warranty expired and with relatively few hours with absolutely no abuse (such as spins or unusual attitudes) should Gyro House stick to its warranty terms, or should they grant me some leeway, such as offering to rebuild the unit they sold me?

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I believe in the legal world they call it a limited warranty. The part was guaranteed to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the time in service or calendar time period stated, whichever comes first. Apparently, you felt that was "reasonable" or you would not have purchased the product.

The manufacturer / overhauler satisfied the terms of the warrranty, i.e., the part didn't fail within the stated time in service / calendar time period so "technically speaking" (or legally speaking) they are under no obligation to entertain your claim.

Had the warranty offered 1000h / 2 yrs, you'd have a case. Sometimes a better warranty is only a few $$ more.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

I believe in the legal world they call it a limited warranty. The part was guaranteed to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for the time in service or calendar time period stated, whichever comes first. Apparently, you felt that was "reasonable" or you would not have purchased the product.

The manufacturer / overhauler satisfied the terms of the warrranty, i.e., the part didn't fail within the stated time in service / calendar time period so "technically speaking" (or legally speaking) they are under no obligation to entertain your claim.

Had the warranty offered 1000h / 2 yrs, you'd have a case. Sometimes a better warranty is only a few $$ more.

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You're right, legally, of course. However, there should be some consideration for buyer goodwill. Most items have warranties, but the expectation is that the device *well* exceeds the warranty period.

In my case, I bought a new car with a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty. My wife was driving it in another city, and a bunch of stuff in the electrical system fried. $3,000 worth of work.

Car had 37,000 miles on it. The dealer thought it was unfair for such a major failure to occur just after the warranty expired, and went to bat with the manufacturer. The manufacturer agreed, and covered the repair cost.

Gyro House should give Mark *some* amount of consideration...whether it's a free replacement, or a new unit at a steep discount...for two reasons. One, of course, is for customer satisfaction.

The second? Gyro House should be *really* wondering why their product failed so early. They should exchange with Mark, just to tear into the failed unit and determine why it failed. Because if there's a flaw, it's likely some some number of additional early failures will occur *before* the warranty period expires. Forget the time since installation, it only had eighty hours. Finding why Mark's unit quit might save them a bundle down the road.

Ron Wanttaja

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

The second? Gyro House should be *really* wondering why their product failed so early.

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Agree, which is why I would request to get the inop unit back in my shop where it could be disassembled, inspected, repaired and returned to customer in working order. If it's full of particles from a deteriorating air supply line, filter or other component upstream of the gyro, is gyro house responsible? Should they replace the gyro for free or at deep discount?

As a customer, I would not march in demanding free replacement. That doesn't foster good customer service either.

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Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk

On 10/03/14, I had a TGH Aviation (The Gyro House) overhauled Horizon Gyro installed in my mighty Cessna C-150, during an annual inspection at Magnum Aviation in San Martin, CA.
Last week, it crapped out and started tumbling. Directional Gyro works good. Suction good.
The unit had a 1000 hour/1 year warranty.
My mechanic says he will "have a talk with Gyro House."
I think Gyro House ought to back up their product and give me another one, or at least give me a major break in price.
WHAT SAY YOU?
I will report to all what happens.

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I've seen your post on at least 3 different aviation forums. Do you really think it is necessary to go to such lengths to put a vendor in a negative light when the product is out of warranty and before you've even talked with the vendor?

I spoke to my mechanic. He said he talked to Gyro House, and to paraphrase my mechanic, and I quote "..they said it's out of warranty and there's nothing we can do blah blah blah -- eff you."
Except instead of "eff you" my mechanic used an epitaph, but he may have been exaggerating.
Yes, the filters were clean (and are replaced every annual), and yes the vacuum pump is fine, and no there does not appear to be any source of contamination.
And, to paraphrase my mechanic, he said "we've had issues with other Gyro House stuff, so we don't use them much."
So, maybe I should be a good little customer and just accept the fact that my expensive AI went belly up after 18 months/80 hours and shut up and buy another one.
I will buy another one, but not from Gyro House. Your mileage may vary.
And if someone from Gyro House does not like me posting this on the internet, by all means reply here on this forum, and we can have a discussion.

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Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk

I spoke to my mechanic. He said he talked to Gyro House, and to paraphrase my mechanic, and I quote "..they said it's out of warranty and there's nothing we can do blah blah blah -- eff you." .

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Your gyro was out of warranty. I don't see that you have any reason to be indignant that they will not give you a longer warranty than you paid for.

If they chose to go above and beyond, that would have been great, but I bet you wouldn't have posted about it to 3 different boards.

I agree "the gyro was out of warranty". Now having said that it seems a lot 'certified aircraft quality' units have a short service life. May I mention directional gyros, turn and bank indicators (I had one that lasted probably 50 hours tops but out of warranty in time). Radios, transponders....the list goes on. I spent a small fortune trying to keep the radios and transponders operating when I had my Cherokee and they were 'maintained' by a approved service center. Finally gave up and bought something simple (Champ) and use a 'uncertified' handheld that cost maybe $250. End of problem.

If you can be a smart consumer, when you have something that you feel is unsatisfactory, first make a polite notice to the company or business with your problem. The unit is clearly out of warranty, in fact is twice the warranty period, But the company might offer something, perhaps to do a repair at a discount. I had Cont once offer cylinders at a discount price in a similar situation. The hard part may be getting your problem to the attention of the right person. Being too negative, too condemning is not likely to help. And best not to leave it to a 3rd party to do your talking, unless he has some in with them.
I recently had a meal at a restaurant that did not taste right, I politely told the waitress who told the manager who tasted the sauce herself and agreed it was not right. The gave me a free meal, and said hope I come back again.

Yep I agree with you Bill but part of the problem is the company who performed the 'repair' gave you a 90 day or (say) 50 hour warranty. Meanwhile you live in NW Wisconsin and shut down for the winter. So much for the 90 day warranty period but you're right it's possible to get some satisfaction if you get to the right party. By the way, I know something about this as (in a former life) I worked as a service manager for a large truck dealership and had to evaluate various requests for 'adjustments'. Meanwhile the company who built a certain engine we sold did a lot of 'stonewalling' even though they knew they had a problem.

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Originally Posted by L16 Pilot

Yep I agree with you Bill but part of the problem is the company who performed the 'repair' gave you a 90 day or (say) 50 hour warranty. Meanwhile you live in NW Wisconsin and shut down for the winter. So much for the 90 day warranty period but you're right it's possible to get some satisfaction if you get to the right party.

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The calendar limitation in this case is a bit silly... few folks do a thousand hours in a single year. I can see some sort of calendar limit applying, but not one requiring an owner to fly 80 hours a month.

However, of course, there are SOME folks who have an unreasonable attitude towards warranties. Too much experience with these kinds of can harden the attitude towards those with more-reasonable objections. Depending on the persons involved, making the issues public may harden the attitudes even further.

Ron Wanttaja

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

The calendar limitation in this case is a bit silly... few folks do a thousand hours in a single year. I can see some sort of calendar limit applying, but not one requiring an owner to fly 80 hours a month.

However, of course, there are SOME folks who have an unreasonable attitude towards warranties. Too much experience with these kinds of can harden the attitude towards those with more-reasonable objections. Depending on the persons involved, making the issues public may harden the attitudes even further.

Ron Wanttaja

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I have to concur with Ron on the 'hardening' of warranties. I built a guitar for a touring musician. My warranty is very loose (most of which is determined by the manufacturer of the parts as an individual). I stand behind all my work. No question...... This musician put the guitar through three world tours and was constant issue over his mistreatment. Eventually I had to put him to the bottom of the list and DEFINE and set of rules that each of my guitars now leave the shop with. He alone took what was a GREAT relationship with many many customers and flushed it. Unfortunately for those whom I would give flexibility to were lumped into the same group as that one creep.
Rick

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The calendar limitation in this case is a bit silly...

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1 yr warranty on an OH'd gyro is common in the industry.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

1 yr warranty on an OH'd gyro is common in the industry.

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What is the average expected lifetime for a $600 - $1,000 overhauled vacuum-driven attitude indicator? I'm getting a newly-purchased OH AI installed today -- NOT from TGH.
Under normal conditions, no unusual attitudes, I fly average 50-75 hours a year, usually weekly, parked outside with canvas cover, Rapco vacuum pump, average suction. Clean filters and lines, etc. C-150.
How long? I would hope AT LEAST 350 hours/three years .

Is it better to buy new? I'm seeing prices averaging $2.5K to $5K for new ones.
Digital?

I really enjoyed training for IFR and I like keeping my plane IFR current and I like to stay IR current. An AI is required equipment for certified IFR-legal planes. So, I have no choice but always have a working AI.

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Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk

What is the average expected lifetime for a $600 - $1,000 overhauled vacuum-driven attitude indicator? I'm getting a newly-purchased OH AI installed today -- NOT from TGH.
Under normal conditions, no unusual attitudes, I fly average 50-75 hours a year, usually weekly, parked outside with canvas cover, Rapco vacuum pump, average suction. Clean filters and lines, etc. C-150.
How long? I would hope AT LEAST 350 hours/three years .

Is it better to buy new? I'm seeing prices averaging $2.5K to $5K for new ones.
Digital?

I really enjoyed training for IFR and I like keeping my plane IFR current and I like to stay IR current. An AI is required equipment for certified IFR-legal planes. So, I have no choice but always have a working AI.

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MTBF for pneumatic instruments is ~1000h. However, that's under optimum conditions. The only gyros I've changed with that kind of TIS is on planes that fly every day, or nearly so. However, I don't think expecting 400h or life out of a gyro is unreasonable. Again, be nice to know the forensics of what caused the o'haul unit to fail. Otherwise, can't do much about it.

I find that aircraft that don't fly much tend to go through gyro instruments much more often than aircraft that are flown regularly (usually commercially). I've heard that all that sitting around doesn't agree with the bearings, but I'm not an instrument tech, just an IA.

And, to paraphrase my mechanic, he said "we've had issues with other Gyro House stuff, so we don't use them much."
So, maybe I should be a good little customer and just accept the fact that my expensive AI went belly up after 18 months/80 hours and shut up and buy another one.
Gyro instruments like your AI normally used to last more than 40 yrs. ( back before corporations created planned obsolescence ) I've replaced perfectly good working gyros over 40 yrs & 2000 hrs old just because some nut passed a rule that Radium Dials are hazardous waste.

The comment from the mechanic says a lot. Feel free to "dis" the manufacturer if you like ( just stick to confirmable facts ) but I think your best option is to buy another brand. Your life matters more than a few bucks and an AI can truly be life-saving.

I had to do my AI frequently and the overhaul shop reported black particles in the instrument. I replaced all my vacuum hoses and have had no more problems. So check the hoses.