AOPA Webpage fatal accident study

I will speak up as someone who has spent a thousand or so hours driving under-equipped light aircraft around in crappy weather amongst tall rocks. The first rule I learned was to expect that the weather forecast was just a guess and the winds and ceiling will, not may, be different. And expect Mother Nature to throw you a curve ball on a regular basis. Where you really need to know the weather, there will not be a reporting station. So always launch with a backup plan and a hard limit of what weather will trigger going to plan B.

The second rule I learned was that when it was time to go to plan B, do it. You never every "gotta" get home today. The folks at a thousand small airports offer great sympathy and hospitality to wayward aviators. You meet wonderful people at unscheduled stops.

Then I learned that I do not have to fly a straight line to get to my destination. Some days, running 100 miles in a different direction from my desired course line will allow me to get where I want to go rather than flying up to some bad weather and sitting stuck while a big glob of low ceilings takes its time moving overhead.

Finally, the best decision making is done before you crank up and start taxiing. Know before your wheels leave the ground that it is OK to launch to look at the weather but decide before the throttle goes forward how just far you will go to look at the weather. Plan where you will go as soon as the weather gets worse than a limit you have set for yourself.

If you can make yourself think about the enroute weather, make a plan, make a backup plan, and then make yourself follow the plans, you can work your way home through surprisingly challenging weather. But only if you understand that its a step-by-step process and that process does not guarantee that at the end of that day you will be at your destination airport. If you are flying an VFR airplane and absolutely have to get somewhere, drive or buy an airline ticket.

In my small airplane travels, I have managed to cajole Mother Nature into letting me fly small airplanes with no equipment from Boston to San Francisco and from Montreal to Galveston. But Mother Nature is ruthless, gives the test before the lesson about it, and should always be viewed with a little paranoia as you study at her College of Aeronautical Knowledge.

The only way to build experience is to fly. Don't fly the same one flight 1000 times. Fly 1000 different flights and build your knowledge one bit at a time.

Merry Christmas,

Wes
N78PS

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What people are loosing here is this...I am Not talking about going around the patch or flying 30 miles with a passenger. This is about a few hundred mile trip as a low time pilot.

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While there are more points to check out the weather for in the longer flight, but if you can't do the work for it, you have zero business leaving the ground as a solo student. As I said, the issue is not one of knowledge or skill being dependably predictable by total time. Anyone turned loose for their checkride- hell, for their solo training- should know how to plan any flight within the range of their aircraft.

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Just me..You do what you want.

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That's your prerogative. However, as someone else pointed out, you are letting fear dictate your activities where reason should reign.

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I had a woman whom found out I fly want to go for a ride...the very first thing she asked was...How many hrs I have flown....I told her do not worry about it..I fly no one but me.
She said..My dad was a pilot, he told me do not climb in any airplane if the pilot has under 300 hrs. So I am not the only one whom thinks this way.

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I had a racist grandmother who swore she would never ride in a car or bus driven by a black man because (in her misguided opinion) they were not smart enough or trustworthy enough to handle a vehicle in which she was riding. The point of this story is that "traditional" thinking is not necessarily correct. There are plenty of other examples of this in aviation alone.

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I just get so upset or emotional when I read articles like the one that draws us all here.

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I hate to say this but if you get that emotionally perturbed by a simple discussion of a crash, I must question how you would respond as a pilot to an emergency. That is not something that more time is going to cure. It's a matter of the mental makeup of a person for the most part.

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This low time pilot with his kids on board and someone elses child..we know the rest..

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Given the mistakes he made, it probably would not have mattered if he had 200 hours or 20,000 hours. Stupidity seldom gets better with time. In fact, in some ways, it gets worse as people become more confident in making the same asinine mistakes with an ever increasing level of confidence.

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So say what you want, its in black and white and the NTSB website is full of pilots just like this man.

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It is also full of 10,000 hour pilots who made the same poor choices. As I said, you need to check the fear and recognize that anecdotal evidence is not conclusive.

Maybe BFR's that consist less of honing the skillz your PPL "thinks" he has and a bit more of a reality check would work...
Rent a plane that Is IFR capable and pull him into the clouds. No foggles. REAL. Climbs. Decents. A 180* get the hell out turn. As he loses control for the third time admonish him that he and any friends or loved ones he had been flying with would be dead due to HIS ego.
Some people need to have the holy crap scared out of 'em to convince them they're not as smart as they think they are.

My wife of a few months was a smoker. She developed pneumonia and didn't tell me. I came home to find her in the pyramid position in bed and gasping for breath. To the ER we went. Long story short; the docs told her that if she kept smoking she would most likely end her days feeling that same way she did that day in bed; unable to draw a breath no matter how much she tried.
She never smoked another cigerette. Ever. No patch, No support Group. Simply Scared Straight.

When you pass your FAA PPL you need to display a modicum of IR capability (climb. dive. recovery) but in the back of your mind you know you won't be allowed to die. For some people this doesn't equate to a future danger.

If I were re-writing the FAR's i would make sure EVERY student got REAL IFR exposure for a couple of hours. Foggles are a video game. Real IMC not so much.


Chris

Besides; look how many training flights could occur...after all, when going after a PPL the weather is crappy 1/2 the time...

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Maybe BFR's that consist less of honing the skillz your PPL "thinks" he has and a bit more of a reality check would work...
Rent a plane that Is IFR capable and pull him into the clouds. No foggles. REAL. Climbs. Decents. A 180* get the hell out turn. As he loses control for the third time admonish him that he and any friends or loved ones he had been flying with would be dead due to HIS ego.
Some people need to have the holy crap scared out of 'em to convince them they're not as smart as they think they are.

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Darn straight.

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If I were re-writing the FAR's i would make sure EVERY student got REAL IFR exposure for a couple of hours. Foggles are a video game. Real IMC not so much.

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I couldn't agree more. I had something like 25 hours of real IMC time prior to Dave (my last CFI) and I coming to realization that I probably should go ahead and solo. I enjoyed his company while flying so much that it became less about "punching the clock and checking off the boxes" and more of a fun and productive time with a friend. His death from a massive coronary just before my solo really hit me hard.

Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.

Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.

H.A.S.

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.

Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.

H.A.S.

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I posted this in the wrong thread...Sorry about this people....I should know..... never post before coffee.

H.A.S

H.A.S. I have read your posts on the video about the guy who crashed and also about taking passengers up. I find your viewpoints very interesting. I also find what you posted about having 6 engine outs and a catastrophic failure amazing, all while flying single seaters. Do you mind if I ask a little more about these situations? I have been flying for 40 years, most of that time as a professional pilot, and I don't think I have had as many engine failures as you. Were all of these engine failures in the same airplane? If so, I am curious as to what kind it was. What did you find as the cause of these failures? Please share your stories with us. Maybe we all can learn something from your experience.

I am also facinated by your posts on carrying passengers. I agree that if you don't feel comfortable carrying passengers until you have 500 or even a thousand hours, then you shouldn't. But if you are flying a single seat airplane how will you ever develop the experience of flying a two seater, even if that seat is empty. I would think it would be better to fly a two seater by yourself for awhile, so you could gain the experience to get you comfortable to fly with a passenger. Of course, if you have no desire to ever fly a passenger it doesn't matter. I have found aviation to be a lot like sex, it is more fun with a partner. :-) I applaud you for developing your own minimums regarding flying passengers and staying within them. I was very comfortable with the instruction I received and flew my first passenger just a few days after my PPL checkride. When I got my instrument rating, I used it to go on a pleasure trip very soon afterward that required flying through the clouds. If I hadn't felt comfortable doing this, I would not have. I believe that when anyone takes flying lessons they should be learning much more than just how to operate the controls. They should be learning about themselves, how they think and process information, what they are comfortable with and what makes them uncomfortable. I used to tell my students, when I was a flight instructor, that they have a gauge they carry around with them at all times. It is their gut. If it is talking to them, they should listen. If your gut tells you the weather ahead is more than you want to take on, do something about it. To the best of my knowledge, none of my students ever crashed. I really feel for the poor guy in that video. I bet his gut was yelling at him during the last few minutes of that flight.

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Steve I have to agree with everything you say. I put it all out on the table and leave nothing back. Not like most whom like to hold thier cards close to the body, I show my hand, honest upfront.

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No worries man. That's all anyone can ask of you in that regard. I've had three or four engine failures in my time- one in a Cessna 172 due to a maintenance error and the rest in ultralights- but the make takeaway point was that you need to use your flying time to build your skills and not wait for a certain number of hours to fly passengers or take longer (but still reasonable) trips.

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To date I have had 6 engine outs and one complete catastrophic failure, all flying single seaters so that would be, I was alone and on my own. I get ask..did you get scared....no time to think about it, you have a job and you better do it.

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Might I ask what you are flying that has had so many failures? If these are all on the same type of powerplant, it might be time to consider a different model or at very least consider the way in which you are handling it.

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Do I think those events make me a better pilot, not to sure, but I am a smarter pilot.

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Nothing scrubs away undeserved positive opinions of oneself like staring risk in the face....or landing an ultralight in someone's front yard and having to meekly ask "Do you mind if I use your phone?" as I had to do on one occasion after my engine started giving me problems.

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Hope your Christmas was a good one for you and your's.

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I don't personally observe it per se (since I am Jewish) but thanks for the sentiment. My fiancee and her family had a nice little private celebration of it which I attended. It is always nice to get to spend time with those you care about regardless of the reason or the season. Merry Christmas to you and your friends and family. Fly safe in the new year!

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Originally Posted by Hiperbiper

the docs told her that if she kept smoking she would most likely end her days feeling that same way she did that day in bed; unable to draw a breath no matter how much she tried.
She never smoked another cigerette. Ever. No patch, No support Group. Simply Scared Straight.
...

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Neighbor had triple bypass and docs said if he kept smoking he would be dead in 6 mos. He got a new doc that wasn't so adamant and kept smoking. Some people are invincible. That seems to be the case with the Cirrus pilot.

Which one would you rather fly with? Your wife or my neighbor?

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental, but I don't really see the difference between an hour "around the patch" and three hours in cross-country, other than duration and change of airports.

I do the same weather analysis for both.
I have the same contingency plans for both (yes, I've diverted on a "local" flight to another airport).
I have my sectional out and check my waypoint landmarks for both.
I pre- and post- flight the same way.
In the air, I check fuel levels, weather, engine conditions, clouds, etc. continuously.

I also fail to see how something can be less or more dangerous if there is a passenger in the aircraft. The aircraft doesn't care, the weather doesn't care, and there's still only one person working the controls.

If a pilot is competent to fly it himself - and is honest about his limitations - I don't see what the big deal is.

Then again, I work on the starting premise that it isn't a good day to fly and then list all the mitigating factors to the risks until they are acceptable.

[edit]

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Might I ask what you are flying that has had so many failures? If these are all on the same type of powerplant, it might be time to consider a different model or at very least consider the way in which you are handling it.

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I got a dollar it was a two cycle Rotax. Everyone I know that has flown with them has had multiple "unscheduled landings" due to them conking out.

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Originally Posted by WLIU

I will speak up as someone who has spent a thousand or so hours driving under-equipped light aircraft around in crappy weather amongst tall rocks. The first rule I learned was to expect that the weather forecast was just a guess and the winds and ceiling will, not may, be different. And expect Mother Nature to throw you a curve ball on a regular basis. Where you really need to know the weather, there will not be a reporting station. So always launch with a backup plan and a hard limit of what weather will trigger going to plan B.

The second rule I learned was that when it was time to go to plan B, do it. You never every "gotta" get home today. The folks at a thousand small airports offer great sympathy and hospitality to wayward aviators. You meet wonderful people at unscheduled stops.

Then I learned that I do not have to fly a straight line to get to my destination. Some days, running 100 miles in a different direction from my desired course line will allow me to get where I want to go rather than flying up to some bad weather and sitting stuck while a big glob of low ceilings takes its time moving overhead.

Finally, the best decision making is done before you crank up and start taxiing. Know before your wheels leave the ground that it is OK to launch to look at the weather but decide before the throttle goes forward how just far you will go to look at the weather. Plan where you will go as soon as the weather gets worse than a limit you have set for yourself.

If you can make yourself think about the enroute weather, make a plan, make a backup plan, and then make yourself follow the plans, you can work your way home through surprisingly challenging weather. But only if you understand that its a step-by-step process and that process does not guarantee that at the end of that day you will be at your destination airport. If you are flying an VFR airplane and absolutely have to get somewhere, drive or buy an airline ticket.

In my small airplane travels, I have managed to cajole Mother Nature into letting me fly small airplanes with no equipment from Boston to San Francisco and from Montreal to Galveston. But Mother Nature is ruthless, gives the test before the lesson about it, and should always be viewed with a little paranoia as you study at her College of Aeronautical Knowledge.

The only way to build experience is to fly. Don't fly the same one flight 1000 times. Fly 1000 different flights and build your knowledge one bit at a time.

Merry Christmas,

Wes
N78PS

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This ^^

This particular accident hits home for me, which is why I'm writing this instead of a postition article for NAFI Mentor Magazine. Part of it is because I fly in and out of Indianapolis fairly often (my wife's sister and her husband live about five minutes from Indy Metro). Part of it is because this accident occured in what I consider my "home turf" - I got my private certificate (not "license", although that's an argument for a different thread) at Waukegan Regional what seems like a million years ago and because I also work full time for the railroad that goes through that area.

But more than that. Way back in May of 2000, my wife and I flew from St. Louis back to Waukegan to see family in the northern Chicago suburbs. There were two fronts, as I recall, that were joined together south of St. Louis and were formed a giant "V" that straddled our planned route of flight, with a separation of about 150 - 200 miles on either side of Chicago. I think they were both cold fronts, or the leading one was a cold front and the trailer was a warm front - the latter makes more sense to me, given the conditions.

At Spirit of St. Louis, the bases were about 1,000, with reported tops of about 8,000. We filed for 9,000 and launched. At 9,000 feet were were literally right on top of a stratus layer. Looknig up, I could see stars - out to the left and right, I could see the reflection of our nav lights. It was like this most of the way to Chicago, although around Peoria, the tops did go down a little.

As we were being handed off from Kansas City Center to Peoria Approach, I heard ATC say to a TWA flight "There's a VFR Bellanca stuck on top and he sounds scared - do you have time to help him?" I thought briefly about offering, but I wasn't a CFI at the time and the TWA flight was probably in a better position, crew-wise, to provide assistance. I also did not want to clutter the frequency needlessly. So, off to check in with Peoria.

When we returned from St. Louis and were attending Missouri Pilot's Association picnic the following week, my instructor took me aside and asked me if I heard about the Bellanca that crashed over the weekend. With a sinking feeling, I told him no. It turns out that the non-instrument rated pilot and his passenger were killed in conditions that any instrument pilot wouldn't have tried at an airport without approaches - it would have been a challenge to land at the nearest airport with a precision approach.

The reason that this grieves me is not that I could have saved the day by jumping on the radio - far from it. At the time, I would have had no business trying to do so, and I probably would have made matters worse. No, it's because the narrative seems depressingly familiar. There seems to be an ethos in this business where some people will push to do impossible things, given the limitations of themselves and/or their airplanes. I will say that even the most capable of transport category aircraft, be it Boeing, Airbus, Brazilia, whatever, can be brought down by bad judgement.

Where am I going with this? I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here: I have far more respect for a pilot that has the courage to say "Nope, this ain't for me" then I do for the "pilot" that says "Whew - wasn't sure we were gonna make that one!" And it's not the number of hours. It is the quality of training, and, more importantly, the quality of thinking that goes into any flight, whether it's spinning around the patch or going on a transcontinental trip.

As Wes said, there is no compelling reason to ever take off. Even if it means getting fired from your job because you're late. Those of you that are AOPA members can find an article I wrote in Flight Training where I tell the story of getting stuck for week at my in-laws because I simply refused to risk a flight I felt a simple 172 couldn't handle. No, I didn't get fired - in fact, a lot of people in my office were impressed that I had the moxie to say "Oh, well." To add to that, one thing I ask all of my students when it comes to marginal weather (which might be different for VFR and IFR training): "Show me the emergency take off procedure for that airplane."

We, in GA, whether in the experimental faction or in the "spam can" world, must adopt the attitude the real pros, the airlines and business aviation communtiy, have and simply not fly beyond our capabilities. And the equipment and the airplane cannot replace judgement or skill - they are merely tools for our use, that's all.

We also have to adopt a culture where it's OK to listen to our peers when they say "Are you sure about this?" Rod Machado, in his collection Plane Talk has an article entitled "Time to Speak Up" that touches on this. Even if we don't like what we hear, we have to take it into consideration. And the person that cares enough to say something shouldn't be treated as a meddler; instead they should be thanked for caring enough to say something, even if we disagree.

OK, that was a bit disjointed, but I think you get the gist. Fly safely and encourage safe behavior, please, and have a wonderful New Year.

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Originally Posted by Bob Meder

Fly safely and encourage safe behavior.

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This phrase should be an integral part of EAA's culture.

Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

Conversation on the radio....

Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

Lynn....What happened?
me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
Me....That field right below me....
Lynn...Yes...
Me..OK
Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
Me....Pause..
Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
Me...OK.
Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

Solo'ed 7-12-09, My first bird was a 80's something quicksilver, after 3 engine outs with that I sold her. I then purchased a Brand new bird, engine and all, brand new.
At the 4 hour mark and at 1000' the engine came apart. I lost the complete reduction unit and prop. I had logged about 30 hrs solo by this time. This too was an ultralight.

The owner of the company where the engine was made told me he had a design flaw. He thought all old stock engines where gone, well I got one. It was brandnew, NOS { New Old Stock}. His new design had more bolts to hold the reduction unit on, the first design he said would fail..I said no shit. When I purchased this bird this engine was on it.

He said he thought all those engines where gone, guess not. He blamed everyone but himself for this, cussed me up one wall then the other for flying with this engine, would not stand behind his product and charged me over 1 grand to fix this engine. I sold it, bird and all.

I will tell you what saved me here was a radio. I was flying with friends all in our own birds. Myself and one other friend we had radio's. When I announced I had a catastrophic failure he talked me down. First he asked what happened, I did not know at the time, I just knew it was like a brick hit me and I was going down, but flying.

He told me where I was putting the bird down,watched me land, then went for help. I landed ever so nicely in a field with corn about 2 inchs tall. I can tell you I would not of landed their. I would have glided past this point and after this was nothing but tree's. I thought I was to high to make that field, today I would slip her in but back then I never had done a slip, never even knew about doing one.

Conversation on the radio....

Me.......Mayday Mayday I am going down......

Lynn....What happened?
me....No Idea but I had a catastrophic failure and it felt like a brick hit me.
Lynn..ok....you are landing right dwon thier in that corn field.....
Me....That field right below me....
Lynn...Yes...
Me..OK
Me..I am goinmg to fast I am going into those tree's....
Lynn...As soon as you touch the ground pull that stick back hard and let that tailwheel dig into the dirt..My bird had no brakes....
Me....Pause..
Lynn...You think you will go airborn again....you won't no thrust...
Me...OK.
Lynn....Great job and I am proud of you..
Me.. Thanks...as I step out and fall to the ground thanking the Lord for letting me live.

One friend followed the prop to the ground and Lynn stayed with me. After it was over and I was back in my hangar they told me I was calm and cool on the radio. I said not time to be anything but. It was after standing on the ground waiting for someone to come and get me my knees started to shake and it all set in what had just happened.

I walked those fields of tree's looking for that prop and reduction unit, for all fields around where tree's but this one field I landed in. I never did find that prop and reduction unit. I can just see the person whom finds it and then starts looking for an airplaneto go with it...lol

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

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Ahhh context - a beautiful thing. This puts a lot of the discussion into perspective.

Previous comments: IMC training in prep for PPL: Absolutely. It doesn't take much, just enough. As a CFI it is always fun to sit back, and look at the student's face as they penetrate the cloud. (Keep your hand ready to counteract the student's reaction to pull up.) It gives them a whole new perspective.

The post about people not learning until they got scared enough. Oh, I love training teenage boys (CAP cadets.) They come at it as Flight Simulator aces. Takes what, 4 hours, before you can reach the point where they admit that they don't know how to fly? THEN they can learn. (You can't tell them, or show them. They have to figure it out for themselves.) Teenage girls are easier to teach. There is nothing sexist about that comment. It is entirely cultural. They don't come at it trying to prove to me that they already know how to fly. Saves the first 4 hours. The BEST is when the student does not yet have a driver's license. Little to "unlearn."

Anyway, off topic, sorry.

2 genuine engine failures due to fuel contamination and I unexpectedly ran a tank dry once (plenty of fuel in the other tank.) Landed on airport in the first, twin engine in the second (fortunately contamination was only in that tank) and for the third, OH it is amazing how fast you can go through the bold face "engine out" procedures. (And then feel like a fool.)

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

All the rest where engine seizers in two strokes. I swore off two strokes. Since purchasing my Experimental with a VW I have had a good time flying, but its hard to shake those ultralight days, everytime I go up I expect something to fall off or for the engine to quit.

I flew off about 50 hrs this year and am starting to feel better about flying but still do not like going out of site of my runway. If I can not see my runway I start to worry a little. I hope to get over this and be able to enjoy a X-country again.

H.A.S
P.S. In my Experimental Avenger to date I have logged almost 100 trouble free hrs...knock on wood....lol

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Yes, context does explain a lot, and I suspected your background was with non-certificated engines when I saw your signature. But man.....you have had a most unfortunate flying "career" even for someone flying two-strokes!

I hope you are eventually able to relax and enjoy aviation, sounds like up to this point you haven't experienced the freedom and fun of aviation like most of us due to your "adventures" and understandable intimidation. And I encourage you to complete your private pilot training if you have not done so. This will do more than anything to instill confidence in your abilities and in the fact that most aircraft are not looking for an excuse to fall out from under us.

Who knows, you might start having so much fun that you will revise your "1000 hr requirement" for sharing the skies with a passenger. It would be a shame for you to miss one of the most incredible aspects of flying our aerocraft :)

I had a stator go bad on a rotax. This was in a Hi-Max. The plane and engine had 25 hrs on them. So off came the stator. I order a Brand New stator for this engine. If you never purchased one of these let me tell you they are not cheap.

As soon as this Stator arrives I install it. I do a complete run up with the bird tied down, starting and running, then shutting down then doing it all over again. I ran her for about 1 hr on the ground. She always started right up and ran great.

I untie the bird and go and taxi her. I spend another 30 mins taxing around doing crow hops. I shut her down, do another preflight and head to the runway thrushold.

Check for traffic, slowly apply throttle and head down the runway. Just as I am getting ready to break gravity all went quiet. I knew right off what happened, and to say I was pissed was not saying enough.

I pull the bird over and get out. Then I reach in and unplug my ignition module and plug it into the other side of the stator. She fires right up. I taxi to the hangar for I will not fly this bird with this engine.

So off comes the engine and I buy a new engine then sell the bird. I was done with two strokes.

Here is a short video of this bird. This is the new owner flying her right after he purchased her from me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBGro7gJfy8

H.A.S

I looked in my log book and I did fly that bird again before pulling that engine. I came back the next day and pulled her back out.

After about 40 mins of flying above my field a freind " Lynn" flew in in his bird. I form up on his side and just as I do the engine goes almost to an idle. I head straight for the runway, as I land she stops running. I get out and the engine was siezed, it was then I was done with two strokes, that was engine out 6 in under 3 years.

I believe it was fuel oil seperation, the rear cylinder siezed.

H.A.S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

I fly safe and will not subject anyone to a low time pilot in the left seat as PIC. Just the way I do things. Say what you want, it does not bother me one bit....If this scares you, I feel for you......

What scares me is a low time pilot acting as PIC.....Look at the statistics.....They speak volumes.......Its pilots that think this way that kill people.....

You want to fly passengers there should be a min amount of logged hrs flying before you can take anyone up....

I hope Steve from Indy rings in on this, he see's what a low time pilot will get you......KILLED is what it will get you.

H.A.S.


You must be better then me...Thats ok for I am sure you are the best.

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Either you're safe and stay within your limits or you're not. Taking 1000 hours of flight time to become safe is well behind the curve.

Nevermind. I see from your other posts where your fear comes from. There is a clear distinction between someone who has received the bare minimum instruction necessary to fly an ultralight, and someone who has received actual instruction and completed their Private training (minimal as that may be too).

For all of our complaining about the FAA, the above makes you appreciate the study and training required for the Private Pilot Certificate.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78PS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flyfalcons

Nevermind. I see from your other posts where your fear comes from. There is a clear distinction between someone who has received the bare minimum instruction necessary to fly an ultralight, and someone who has received actual instruction and completed their Private training (minimal as that may be too).

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I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

I will suggest that your LSA Student Pilot Certificate puts you on the road towards becoming a competent aviator. It may not be obvious to you today, but if you keep studying, you questions and concerns will be answered. You do not need to fret about the level of competency required to carry passengers, or the margins of safety. Simply studying, doing a lot of listening, and practice will get you where you want to go. Unlike many aspects of life today, it is not instant gratification. And Mother Nature will not be hurried.

Patience grasshopper.

Wes
N78PS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WLIU

I will suggest that your LSA Student Pilot Certificate puts you on the road towards becoming a competent aviator. It may not be obvious to you today, but if you keep studying, you questions and concerns will be answered. You do not need to fret about the level of competency required to carry passengers, or the margins of safety. Simply studying, doing a lot of listening, and practice will get you where you want to go. Unlike many aspects of life today, it is not instant gratification. And Mother Nature will not be hurried.

Patience grasshopper.




Wes
N78PS

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Being a Student I read everything I can. I will look at the NTSB reports and try to understand what happened and not repete it. I am sure most everyone does this.

A friend tells me I read to much. I just want to have fun and be safe.

H.A.S.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

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A student certificate represents the bare minimum to solo an airplane. It is a far cry from completing the private pilot training. If you want to err in the name of safety, then the best way to do that is to get more training with a competent instructor. It'll go a long way for your confidence and skill.

Aviation is learned by doing, much more than by reading. Reading gives you background and theory. Doing lets you see how theory relates to the real world and where theory falls short. Mother Nature does not respect the internet or folks who write a lot and fly little. One of the things that you learn when you fly a lot is what really works vs what is good for hangar conversation or internet posting.

Go fly.

Wes

I disagree with some of what Wes is saying, that doing and not reading about flying teaches you as a pilot, particularly a new pilot.
Doing, can give you certain skills, like hand and eye coordination, but it can also be just repeating the same mistakes or improper procedure again over and over.

Reading, if it is the right sources, gives you the experience and learning of those who have gone before.
When I was a student pilot, I had the time and interest to read much about flying, and I still do a lot.
I also have spent a lot of time at airports or airstrips watching others fly and learning from that, both the good and what not to do.
And being able to talk to others about flying is a big part of it also.

You are welcome to disagree. In the last 25 or so years of aviating one thing that Mother Nature has taught me is that you don't know what you don't know. Reading about density altitude, or hearing someone talk about density altitude, is not the same as launching from Sheridan Wyoming on a warm day at gross weight with the DA at maybe 6,000'. And reading about orographic lifting only partly prepares you for picking your way around tall rocks on a marginal weather day. Study is important. Listening to the older heads is important. But flying is real life, to paraphrase Steve McQueen.

Go fly.

Happy New Year.

Wes
N78PS

Hmmm, may I suggest a middle proposition for the study vs. experience debate?

I'd say it depends on what one is reading and how one is flying that makes the difference on whether or not either is going forward in helping the pilot become an aviator.

I'm a Sport Pilot with low hours - around 50 or so - and am very, very aware that my ignorance far outweighs my knowledge/experience base. Not to say I'm not competent within the personal minimums I've set for myself, mind you - I've brought along some really Ace guys with me that have a lifetime of flying in all sorts of aircraft including Champs that say I'm "pretty good." And in our circles that's as high a praise as I can think of.

Knowing about density altitude and gross weight on a hot day by reading or talking through it with an experienced pilot gives one a heads-up on what to expect....which translates to better performance in the aircraft, as one knows that it will take more of that strip to take off and a longer climb time.

One of things I do is have a point to every flight (I fly mostly local) and tie it to something I've read or heard. Sometimes it's ground reference manuevers, others it's compass navigation, occasionally slow flight, etc.

As part of the low and slow association, a big part of my flying is ensuring that there's a decent place to land if the Big Fan goes quiet. Last time up I decided to put my judgement to the test and pull carb heat, idle down, and see if I could make my designated spots. Not too bad, but then I cross-checked with some older hands and found out that while some of my places were better than trees or the river, the ground was actually more marsh than field and I'd of most likely flipped it. The river had been up - minor flooding - and had just gone down to bring the fields back to the sunlight; picking a place another 500 feet from where I'd selected from the river would have been much, much firmer ground.

Factoid to put in my head - translate recent past weather into how it will effect the fields along watersheds. Maybe it might save my life some day.

I also read that power lines are often invisible over roads. Hmmm, maybe little ones, but the big, thick black powerlines? So I took her down to 200 feet AGL along a road (in a rural area with no structures or people around) and flew alongside a road I thought was clear of lines and looked. Yep, they're invisible....until it would be too late to do anything but shout an obscenity.

So it's a mix.

If all one ever does is read but doesn't tie it to actually flying, it's just academic and as important to flying as is good penmanship.

If one never reads or seeks counsel from others and learns only by trial and error, it's unnecessarily risky.

With a few exceptions. Nothing can really prepare a pilot for a spin but actual spin training, IMHO; talk it though with an instructor and then go do it. And wake turbulence? One can do everything to avoid it and it can still grab one...and it really has to be dealt with in order to know how to deal with it.

Frank, what you say is so true. A person has to be able to apply what he's read to make the reading worth while. I own a tennis shop and have been stringing racquets for quite a while. I've actually strung a bit on the ATP/WTA tour. I consider myself a professional with about 18,000+ racquets strung. I was able to apply all that I read about stringing and it is a big help. However, my proficiency took a while to get to the point that I can do a racquet in about 15 minutes at cruise speed (pardon the analogy) by doing. I can speed up if needed, but it's not as comfortable. The reading was a basis, the doing made it what it is.

So...it just adds to the argument that what is read is useless if it's not applied properly.

David

Sounds like you are working on the flying part. All good stuff.

I will offer an agricultural tip. The books say when over a plowed field, land with the furrows, but then most pilots say land into the wind. Corn is plowed about 9" deep and if you land into the wind across the furrows you will likely just have a bumpy landing. But around where I am, potatoes are plowed 18" deep and a friend discovered the hard way that if you land into the wind across the furrows of a potato field your landing gear will dig in and you will flip onto your back.

So the "book" offers the guidance to land on plowed fields with the furrows, but not enough emphasis as to why that is more important than landing into the wind if you want to use the airplane again sometime soon.

Knowledge is also regional. I have seen a bunch of "flatland" pilots come to grief when flying around tall rocks. They just did not know what they did not know and did not respect that the airplane will happily take them places where their lack of knowledge will hurt them.

So go fly. Poke your nose into challenging places a little bit at a time. Fly in marginal weather close to home so you know what it looks like and how it acts, but can land as soon as it gets too interesting. Climb up high and carefully explore what the manual says the airplane can do. Mother Nature loves to try to find the holes in your knowledge and take advantage of them. First the test, then the lesson.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 1600vw

I hold a LSA Student Certificate.

Its the fool whom keeps doing the same thing but expects different results.

We talk saftey....Want better saftey...But just go about doing the same thing.

Just trying to state maybe just maybe if we change something we will not be loosing good people as we do.

If I error in the name of safety I will live with that.

H.A.S.

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Howdy 1600VW,

You might want to consider starting a new thread that addresses your concerns about pilot experience and passenger carrying; i.e. pilot certification requirements. I've read your posts and it seems you've had a significant amount of misfortune in your very "young" aviation career and have developed impressions/attitudes that may actaully be detrimental to your flying. Just a thought since there's an absolute world of info and experience within the EAA.