Building a Nieuport 11...

[deftone]

I just read this thread from start to finish....one of the best build logs out there, well done and keep up the good work!!

[Frank Giger]

Well, it's "best" in that it is almost pedantic in detail....and most of it ain't pretty. But the idea behind the thread was to show the not-so-good more than to serve as a vanity achievement. That and to show that if a hack like me with the bare minimum skills, tools, equipment, and workspace required can build a plane, anyone can!

Thank you for your kind words, though.

Today I got the harness installed (mostly).

Since I had to pull out the MF'er and swag a cable there was going to be some fun and games.

But first I had to make the mount for the cable. It's a small steel lift tang with the rear hole secured to the gusset with a bolt and the thimble and cable going through both the tang and the gusset on the other end.

It was kind of tight getting the swagging tool in there, but that's okay - I got to do it twice. Seems that I got it twisted on the fitting and one of them didn't pass the go-no go gauge. Sigh. Cut it out and do over. Fortunately I managed to catch my thumb on some cable and leak the red stuff, so with the appropriate sacrifice the second attempt went without a hitch.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/harn003.jpg

The lap belt mounts were a cinch, though I did wind up putting some washers in the standard hole to make them fit an AN4 bolt.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/harn002.jpg

The (mostly) part is that the shoulder strap ends have to have safety lines put on them, but that's pretty straight forward.

Before I put the sheeting over the cockpit and the forward portion to the firewall I needed to drill the holes for the panel. No way I'd be able to easily get a drill in there once the sheeting is in place!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pan001.jpg

It needs sanding and the holes for the instruments cut before varnishing, but it's a panel. The little "tabs" to the left and right hanging down are for switches, if I need them.

[Frank Giger]

I'll try to put up pictures tonight or tomorrow morning, but I put a safety cable on each of the shoulder straps and locked down the bushings for the rudder cables.

So I'm ready for the top sheeting, and with that covering the fuselage.

[Frank Giger]

Well, let's catch up!

First off, here's how I resolved the harness "safety" issue, and turned it into really a primary.

I got some really big, beefy thimbles and put it around to where the cross cable is under it. That way the cross cable is still pulling on the harness mount.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/harn004.jpg

Then that was ran back one station on the fuselage and attached in the same manner as the cross cable. The gusset, not the tang, is the securing feature here!

The cable running back is firm when the harness is over one's shoulder and locked into the seat belt. So it's up for grabs on whether the cross cable is the primary and the long ones are the safeties or vice-versa.

I then took some electrical tape and wrapped the harness mounts on the cable to where it won't shift left or right.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/harn005.jpg

One of the small items on my list was to lock down the nylon bushings where the rudder cables exit the fuselage. I used my patented "copper conduit mount covered in spray rubber" technique to hold them in place.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cbl001.jpg

Cockpit and forward fuselage sheeting were up next. I just sort of went for it using a piece of poster board as a template to make circles and stuff on.
I couldn't resist throwing a piece of rubber pipe cover around the cockpit!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tpsht001.jpg

The forward piece was a bit more challenging. First off, it came out to 28" from firewall to cockpit piece. All the sheeting I had was 26" stuff. No matter how I oriented the sheeting I came up short.

So I took three of the pieces that were included for leading edges and riveted them together, taping the seams with aluminum tape. I plan on spilling gasoline on that part of the aircraft, and it won't be bothered by it.

Measuring and then cutting to allow for cables, the aileron push/pull rods, and the gas tank was a huge pain.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tpsht002.jpg

The edge that bends down over the fuselage got cleaned up after this picture was taken, and I put a strip of tape where it went over the piece over the cockpit. The neat thing was I managed it without having to put a single hole into the longeron, which was a goal of mine.

Next up is a check of the weather. If I can get three days without rain, I'll cover the fuselage. If not, I'll work out the panel stuff and cut holes for the instruments and work out the rudder stops.

[Frank Giger]

Top and bottom of the fuselage covered. Nothing but straight lines makes covering it seem like cheating!

Like everything, though, there's a snag. Measuring for the holes for the tailwheel and rudder wires is no problem. But I failed to measure the push rod for the elevator! So tomorrow I'll have to put it on and find out where exactly it exits near the tail.

[Frank Giger]

Here's three sides of a fuselage covered:

The fabric for the left side is on the seat of the aircraft. Also the tail is up on a little table so I can sit on the dirty concrete and work on the bottom of it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr002.jpg

From the tail. Of note is that while the glue past the tape looks ugly in the picture, it's smooth to the fabric and will be invisible when painted.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr001.jpg

It's taken me this long in the process to realize that if one wants a really sharp, clean glue line it's as simple as putting down some painter's tape, putting the glue on the fabric, and then pull up the tape.

:rollseyes:

So finally, on the fuselage where it would really be noticed, I have straight clean fabric lines under the tapes.

Also note the inspection panel rings at the top of the turtle deck. That's where the harnesses will come through. I plan on just slitting them (if my measurements were right) rather than cutting them open.

There's also an inspection ring at the tail which will have a cover to have access to the vertical stabilizer nuts underneath.

Tomorrow I have to pull the Bebe out of the tent and mount the vertical stab to measure where the push-pull rod exits it before I can cover the left side. Then cover it, cut it to let everything that needs to exit the fuselage have a way to do so, and then make covers for them.

[Matt Gonitzke]

Tip for the Stewart Systems glue: If you have some excess on the outside you want to remove, it can be rubbed off with a sanding belt cleaner stick.

[Frank Giger]

Or a regular rubber eraser will do it.

What you're seeing in the overage there is the glue discoloring the fabric - it's actually smooth to it with no ridges. Once the latex paint goes on it's invisible!

[Frank Giger]

A lot of people really like covering. I like it when it's done....it's rewarding to see the fabric tighten up and make things look pretty, but I went through the learning curve process which kinda takes the joy out of it.

Well, fuselage is covered...

Okay, to start out I had to mount the horizontal stab and elevator and hook up the push-pull rod to mark where it exits the fuselage...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr003.jpg

A series of marks with a sharpie showed where it exited - it's not a circle, but a long hole!

Also note the little spacer for the rear bolt that holds up the stab just sitting on the gusset. When I pulled the stab up, I had one of the forward spacers in my hand and the other fell to the floor. I tracked it with my eyes and recovered it no problem.

So I had three bolts from the stab and two spacers accounted for. Thus began The Great Pointless Search for the rear spacer on the floor, as I was sure it had fallen down. Fifteen minutes later I stand up in disgust, thinking that since it's untrimmed I could easily replace it....and then saw the bolt came through it cleanly and it was just sitting there as if to say "what are you doing?"

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr004.jpg

All done, with edging tapes top and bottom! The ones underneath went on without a problem, which shocked me.

Of note is the place for the foot hole. That's some excess T3 aluminum from the leading edge material cut into a horse shoe and then patched over like an inspection ring. I'm undecided as to whether I'll put a match for it over the fabric when it's done, but if I do there's something to rivet into.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr005.jpg

From the tail, with it on the ground. I'm offset to the left, so it looks like the fuselage is seriously warped (it's not). The glue across the top towards the back is a splint, btw. I'm gonna put a stripe across the fuselage there to help disguise it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr006.jpg


Tomorrow, if the weather works out, I'll start the painting process.

Oh, question - have y'all been covering the top sheeting of the cockpit forward, or just painting it? I have the fabric, but was thinking it might be overkill.

[Frank Giger]

Since the temperatures today weren't amiable to painting (looks like I gotta wait until next week for it to warm up), I settled for working on the panel:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pan002.jpg

The compass still has to go below the slip indicator. I was going to do a typical overly complicated rig with a full cutout of it into the panel and a mount behind it, but looked again and I can just make four holes and tie it in from the rear mounting bolts.

It'll stick up from the panel, but not much and it'll be okay, I reckon.

[wyoranch]

Frank,
i just wanted to take a minute and say thanks for letting me follow along with your build. I have been following it since almost the beginning here and look forward to seeing your progress. I always await your next post. I am really getting excited to see you finish it.
rick

[Frank Giger]

Thanks for your kind words!

Weather is amiable today for some painting this afternoon and tomorrow!

Got word the engine is going through final break-in runs this weekend and will be shipped next week! Hurray!

[Frank Giger]

Pics Monday, but the fuselage is painted. I've got to clean up some lines and adjust a few curves, but it looks okay-er enough for me.

I'll also cut the holes for the lines and the elevator rod, as well as for the step.

I pulled out the upper wings and cut the sections of sheet for the filler in the center, but ran out of time for cleaning those up and covering them.

Engine is in final break-in up at Valley Engineering and should get shipped this next week. Exciting stuff!

[Frank Giger]

Hey, just a little tweaking and some cutting to do, but she's painted!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr008.jpg

and

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fucvr007.jpg

The thing about painting curves is that one has to back up to look at them, which I didn't do enough of. That "clay" edge was really clever close up, but from a distance it just looks sloppy.

[Frank Giger]

Side sheeting trimmed up a bit to fit better and primed for paint, as well as the side access panels.

First friendly fire incident - I dropped one of the panels and didn't notice that the corner had curled 90 degrees inward, making a nice little knife. Repositioned the sheeting and put a one inch slice in the fabric quicker than one can say isn't that lovely, then - easy patch, but sigh.

[ssmdive]

" That "clay" edge was really clever close up, but from a distance it just looks sloppy. " Nonsense. 1. This is a war machine, they were painted for service not trying to win applause from the people they shot down. 2. Everyone is their own worst critic. It looks great!

[Frank Giger]

Thanks for your kind words. Part of the goofy look is the lack of a side panel. Sooo....

Hey, some pictures!

First, here's the sheeting trimmed up and held in place with some painter's tape. Marks are on the inside for drilling - I just hadn't got to that "breathe deep and drill" amount of intestinal fortitude yet.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/sdsht001.jpg

So the panel there is reinforced with little clips to hold the screws:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/sdsht002.jpg

And to tidy up the panel, I put some automotive door trim around the edges.

Looks okay to me and that panel's not coming off in flight.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/sdsht003.jpg

One of the many things left to the builder in the kit is the gas cap. Not a mention of it anywhere in the plans, and I've seen a crapload of ways to do it.

The tube that comes out of the top of the tank is kind of a weird size (well, for all I know it might be industry standard and a regular ol' Champ gauge will fit it, but it's still an odd size), and rather than monkey around with either the usual clear-tube-through-the-panel Baslee special which would require two more holes in the fuel tank, I opted to make my own float gauge.

Fooling around in the aviation section of Lowe's, I found a coupler out of PVC, some end caps that fit tightly inside it, some copper tubing, and a brass rod that fits loosely through it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/gas001.jpg

I was all shocked and shaken on making the holes in the perfect center (which I then failed completely at) when I realized there's a little lip around the inside of the cup that fits some washers I had around perfectly, and the inner hole was a real close match to the copper tubing.

Ha! I'll let the washer do my centering for me!

A little JB Weld epoxy to hold them into the cups, and a little more to hold the first cup into the coupler.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/gas002.jpg

To reinforce the center of the tube that I cut to length, I thought hard about what could I put around the tube in the coupler that would hold it in place as a reinforcement to the epoxy top and bottom, when I remembered that I did a gasoline tolerance test on the foam tubing I put around the fuel tank. Aha and voila! I did a quick test and it works wonders.

So after the epoxy sets up on the end caps and the washers, I'll seat the tube into the lower cup, epoxy it, put the foam around it, and epoxy the top cap over the top of the tube.

I'll either dig up a rubber gasket or make one for where the coupler meets the tank, and then find some cork and find out how to float the brass rod. Measure for the gas tank, put it through, clip it and bend the end that comes out of the top. And paint it red for MOGAS.

It's not often I do the clever dance around the back yard, but I'm pleased with this solution.

[Matt Gonitzke]

Frank, before you get too far with that, I would make sure the PVC parts are not going to be adversely affected by gasoline. JB Weld may claim to be, but in my experience, it is not. I have had to resolder several steel gas tanks on lawn and garden equipment that someone tried to fix with JB Weld. It worked for a little while, but eventually deteriorated.

The idea is good in principle, but if it were my airplane I would find something for the float and cap that are known to be compatible with gasoline. The last thing you want is for that to break down and clog your fuel line.

[Frank Giger]

That's a really valid point - once the epoxy sets up, I'm thinking several days immersed in gasoline will tell the tale. At most I'm out three bucks worth of material.

Btw, I did the same thing with the foam I put next to the gas tank over similar concerns.

[pittsdriver3]

How about just a cork on the end of a wire that goes through a hole in the middle of the cap ala J3. Simple and they work almost forever. Don

[Frank Giger]

That's exactly what I'm building - a gas cap. The copper tube goes through the holes top and bottom of the plastic bit, and a brass rod with cork on the bottom goes through it.

The cap won't be immersed in gasoline, but I'm going to do a tolerance check for it because of fumes. The white plastic joiner bit fits into the top of the fuel tank neck:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank012.jpg

Let's revisit this picture because I'm mucking things up in text:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/gas001.jpg

Left to right:

Tube for the rod to slip through.
Brass rod.
Caps for the ends, which the tube will be fixed to and centered by means of washers.
Plastic coupler that forms the body of the gas cap. It fits the tank filler tube perfectly!
Cup of coffee because, you know, coffee. ;)

I'll also find a gasket to go around the coupler where it meets the filler tube just to be pedantic. I'm not afraid of the gas cap coming out, as it's seating inside the filler tank by about two and a half inches. The kind of turbulence required to pull a gas cap two inches out of the filler neck of the tank will mean that the gas cap will be the least of my concerns!

[pittsdriver3]

My bad, I thought you were using the PVC for a float. It does need to fit tight as in turbulence you will have the pressure of the fuel trying to pop it out of there. Does the tank vent through the cap or does it have another source? Don

[Frank Giger]

Plastic floating in gasoline on an airplane....I would object, too! :)

Tank vents through the cap. The brass rod fits loosely through the tube (but not so loose as to bind) so I'm not overly concerned about pressure - the fitting fits well; neither snug nor waggling around, though it's on the loose side more than the snug. That's a good thing, as if the PVC does manage to swell over time it has some give.

The other reasons for not worrying too much about pressure is that I rarely find any reason to fly higher than 2,000 feet AGL. One cannot properly enjoy the sight of a cow grazing any higher than that.

[Frank Giger]

Here's said gas cap assembled:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/gas003.jpg

It needs the weekend to sit and the epoxy to completely cure before I do anything else with it, but here it is on the aircraft with the brass rod inserted:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/gas004.jpg

Side sheeting is screwed onto the aircraft:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/sdsht004.jpg

They're bog standard #10 sheet metal screws, and I did a variation on the theme the KC Dawn Patrol guys did on their Nieuports for holding them.

Conduit holders did such a great job on the flooring that I went that way for the sides as well. Clips hold the screws within.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/sdsht005.jpg

[pittsdriver3]

What I'm more concerned about is in turbulence or negative G the gas could slosh up the fill tube and blow the cap off. A big volume of fuel forced up that smaller volume fuel filler can exert some pretty high pressure on that cap. The fuel cap in a Pitts I flew was a thermos style cap with a locking lever. It fit pretty tight even without the locking lever down. I forgot to lock it one day and as I rolled inverted with less than 1 G it blew off. It is surprising how much fuel sucked out while flying back to the airport. I'm glad it was a S2B with a canopy. Don

[Frank Giger]

Ah, I see what you're trying so patiently to explain to me. While rolling is out (she's strickly a utility aircraft), I can see where strip induced turbulence, also known as test landings,* might send a geyser of fuel up the small neck.

So I'm going to put a swivel latch that fits around the neck of the filler cap. Push it one way and it clears the hole and one pulls the filler cap out; once back in place, pull it the other and it goes around it, keeping it from popping out. I did some back of the enevelope drawings and it should be easy to manufacture.

* Lesser pilots and uniformed observers have described this manuever as a "bounce," but that's their problem, not mine.

[edit]

This, btw, is precisely why this build thread exists - to trouble shoot my decisions and keep me out of trouble. Many, many thanks!

[Frank Giger]

Okay, center wing section stuff!

I've seen this done a bunch of ways, so I naturally tried something a little different.

First I took some sheeting and trimmed it to fit the upper and lower sections pretty well, and then covered it as one big long piece.

Then I shrank the fabric (which is doubled) around the center section to match the sweep.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctrcvr001.jpg

Four inch industrial Velcro went along the edges to hold everything down, and she was painted.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctrcvr003.jpg

I have to trim up the sheeting at the very back a little to clean it up, but there's a flap from the lower section that comes up to join them at the back and make it look better.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctrcvr004.jpg

Kind of hair raising to take an exacto knife to fabric, but those holes have to go in if I want the thing to get on the aircraft!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctrcvr002.jpg

One of the things that continues to amaze me is how tough the fabric is - I know it's just polyester cloth, but once sealed and painted it has the consistency of leather more than cloth.

[Frank Giger]

Well, as many triangular shaped bits of curled cowling shrouds piled up in rejected layers of my failure to grasp the intent and methods suggested by Robert and the maddening illustration in the plans, I stopped repeating the same effort that was ending in the same results.

Pictures later, but the problem was that I could get the curve to the firewall or I could get the flare from firewall curve to the flat sheeting, but I just couldn't do both. Not with any sort of satisfactory result.

I just lack the skill to properly "wad up" the aluminum to get it in the right shape.

So I was sitting there drinking coffee and trying to find out where the latest source of human red sauce was leaking out (bottom of left forearm this time) and suddenly stomped up to the aircraft to let it know my frustration with it.* So I put my left hand on my hip in a fist, squared up to it, and motioned at it with my right hand like a butcher knife (old Army habits die hard, I still can't point with one finger).

"Alouette," I admonished, "you're starting to give me the ass. What say you?"

My little lark just sat there, saying nothing, and then a little breeze blew the front flap of the Wonder Tent. A ray of sun struck the firewall right at the edge. The crimped edge. The one that was made the aluminum L shaped sheet that holds the clamps for the cowling to fit the curve of the firewall.

Ah, I think, she's a smart little bird, isn't she? And she just wants her wings back.

Back to my template and a fresh piece of aluminum. Adding an inch to the edge where it meets the firewall, I cut it and annealed along my marked lines.

Bending a nice edge by hand using a flat bending tool (it's too big for my brake), I went to work with the crimpers. Soon I had the curve to match the firewall, tweaking it here and there to get the fit right. A little bend past ninety degrees on the curve and she matched to the side sheeting pretty well.

Hmmmm, I'll put a crease on the back side where the rivets go to hold it to the sheeting. Done. And presto, the flare to the open bottom magically appears and it lays down nicely.

* I think most builders of things become animists of one kind or another. Intellectually I know it's just a machine - one with just eleven moving parts (not including the instruments on the panel) - but the other parts of me like to sing to her.

[martymayes]

You should leave that UPC label attached to your fuel "gauge" and paint it to look like a tricolour flag. When the flag gets to half mast you know it's time to start looking for fuel.....lol

[Frank Giger]

:) That's actually not a bad idea!

I cut the fuel cap retention piece late this evening...don't know if it'll work or not, so no pictures unless it does!

On to stuff I can show pictures of!

Okay, so this is how not to make a cowling cheek:

It's a floppy mess that would never fit right under the cowl and prove to be a nightmare lining up with the holes for the fasteners. This was one of my better attempts as well.

Bonus plan: it bulged out quite a bit to where it ballooned past the cowling edge.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cheek001.jpg

So, as I wrote earlier, I had an epiphany of sorts to just put a lip on the leading edge, bend it over, and crimp to bend to fit the firewall. Here's the right side in profile.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cheek002.jpg

And here's the left.

I've got some minor tweaking to do on it, but it's on and true to the firewall curve and lip.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cheek003.jpg

I couldn't resist and threw the cowl on it for a test fit!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cheek004.jpg

Because the cheeks are a little springy on the small flare from firewall to rivets on the side sheeting, I secured the flange in place with a sheet metal screw top and bottom.

In other news, the prop arrived as I was typing this update - holy smokes, what a piece of art!

[Frank Giger]

Engine is still in the crate:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng001.jpg

I guess my reputation proceeds me. Along with all the helpful tags on which is the oil pressure, oil temp, ignition wires for the coils, etc., they also included one for the oil filler cap. No tag on the dipstick, though. I think they figured it takes one to know one! :)

And here's the prop:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prop001.jpg

Because it's storming today, the flash kicked in on both pics with the camera.

[Sam Buchanan]

Frank, you are using a direct-drive engine?

(By the way, I have a D.VII kit on order, plan to fly an O-200.)

[Frank Giger]

Yep, it's a Valley Engineering 1915cc direct drive VW engine with a 20 amp Diehl case, electronic ignition, and "automatic" carb heat (meaning it's always on) that will spin a 62 inch prop.

More than enough for my obese ultralight.

[Frank Giger]

Brakes!

Okay, so here's what we have to start with, from left to right:

My wheel with the brake drum welded on with a bearing bushing from a tractor for a spacer between it and the wheel.

My spiffy pressed and welded bushings into steel to hold the brake pad.

The brake band, which decided to rust inside its sealed plastic bag. Sigh. Easy enough to fix, though.

The wheel mount bar, which slides into the axel.

Some tubing to make a thingie to hold the wheel onto the wheel mount bar.

Washer to go between brake mount bushing and the wheel, and bolts to hold everything together.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake001.jpg

So here's that brake mount bushing wrote about - it's a thick steel thing I found at Lowe's that we pressed into a hole of some thick steel stock and welded in place.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake002.jpg

The other side isn't welded.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake003.jpg

With the bearing race spacer between the wheel and the brake drum, I came up a bit short on the end for putting anything that would actually hold the wheel onto the axel. I just don't think best wishes will do the job, so....

I'd been kicking around an idea to replace the wheel mount bar with some stock steel, but one of the guys on the builder's forums I frequent wrote about strengths of steel in the wheel mount, and while I doubt it would really matter all that much, there's no use borrowing trouble. What I need is less than 3/8 an inch on the end to give me good purchase on securing the wheel.

So I just backed off the rubber on the shaft a tiny bit...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake004.jpg

And that gave me the space I needed to put in an AN3 bolt through some tubing to hold the wheel on. Robert supplied this exact same thing with the kit, but I lost them on the transfer down from Holden, MO.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake005.jpg

From here it was just a matter of putting a washer between the wheel and the bushing, figuring out where the brake band fit, drilling a hole and then taking a hack saw to the steel stock to get it roughly to length.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake006.jpg

You'll note the break band is a little bent there. Sigh. Torqued it too much when tightening, so it'll come off, get spread, and some washers will go in there. It's also an AN4 bolt, but what it needs is an AN5...so I'll have to enlarge the hole and put one of those in there. May just go grade 8 non-aviation for it.

From here I'll have to drill another hole above the band brake mount for the tube that will go from the gear strut to this mount. I entertained putting them both on the same bolt but it seemed like I might be asking too much of it.

And of course trim down the corners of the mount, sand, and paint it all.

[jdanneel]

Hi Frank,

you must have the "finish line" in sight, good feeling I guess...

any chance of checking the weight of that wheel-brake assembly before putting it on ?

regards

johan

[Dana]

Re the brake band, you might be better off putting a sleeve in there slightly longer than the band width, then you can tighten down the bolt hard against the sleeve and you won't crush the eyes on the band.

[Frank Giger]

Sure, I'll hang it from a fish scale when it's done.

Sleeving the bolt is a grand idea! Thanks for the suggestion - should be easy enough to do, and is an elegant solution.

[Frank Giger]

Pics later....

The brake mount, when trimmed and painted, is 10 ounces. The brake band itself is five ounces.

[jdanneel]

Pics later....

The brake mount, when trimmed and painted, is 10 ounces. The brake band itself is five ounces.


thanks for getting the fish scale out
actually I was interested in the weight of wheel + brake unit

greetings
johan

[Frank Giger]

Heavy duty wheel with tube, tire, and drum is seven pounds, four ounces.

[Frank Giger]

Moar brakes!

Okay, so while the camera battery recharged, I cut the steel stock, shaped the end, sanded, primed and painted it after drilling the holes for the band brake itself and the stabilizer bar.

Then I put it all together, measured the end bit sticking out, cut and drilled the end piece to keep the wheel on.

The stabilizer bar is some half inch thick walled tubing I had left over from my pile-o-scrap. Annealed, pounded, bent, trimmed and painted.

It came out as a pretty neat installation.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake007.jpg

There's a metal sleeve over the bolt that goes through the brake strap to keep me from crimping it!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake008.jpg

Now if the axel moves up on the bungees, the brake post moves forward. When the brake is applied, the stabilizing arm keeps it in place, slowing the wheel without turning the axel.

I bought the sleeves for the brake wire, the brake wire, and some end stops. The dual cable brake lever for the stick comes in on Friday.

Oh, on the other wheel mount I didn't have to move a thing - it was long enough on its own.

[Frank Giger]

Instead of just a bump, how about some actual work?

One of the things I've done when working on the plane is to put the axel on blocks to keep the fuselage from rolling around and storing the wheels to the side. Unfortunately, I put them where they could get wet. The left wheel in particular took the brunt of it...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl003.jpg

Ug. That's just terrible! The rust is surface stuff, but there's absolutely no reason to leave it there.

They make a lot of products for removing rust from chrome, but the Alabama solution from my youth when cars still had chrome on them was Coke-Cola and aluminum foil. One pours the Coke onto the rust and rubs it with the aluminum foil (I always used shiny side down).

It turns into a dark gray kind of paste as it comes up:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl004.jpg

Then rinse and wipe away with water and a damp rag as one goes until all the rust is gone...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl005.jpg

I did use a soft wire brush in a few places where the spokes go into the rim.

The other wheel was only spotted here and there with rust and went really fast.

Going to pick up some new tubes after I pick up my son from school. The current ones I have both have a slow leak somewhere.

[jdanneel]

Hi Frank,

quick question,

the spars on the mainwing are they 2" and 1.5" similar as in the lower wing ?

I had put the question to Robert and that's what he told me but I seem to remember from your pic's they looked both 2" on the upper wing

I am still working on my technical file for the Belgian administration and that is keeping me busy right know, and as I see you are "online" and the N11 expert ...

have fun

johan

[Frank Giger]

As supplied and labeled, both my upper spars are 2" and both lower ones are 1.5," so that's how I put them together!

The lower carry throughs to fit the lower wing into are both 1.5" as well, so I think he might have done it that way for the N11 and the other way for the N17 (which is full scale). He's only had two N11 kits go out the door AFAIK - Jeff Stiles and mine!

But he might have changed it. Robert isn't the least bit afraid of modifying the plans and designs from kit to kit! So an N11 materials supply and plans bought today might well be that way.

It's hard to say "kit" with these planes, as nothing is pre-punched or perfectly cut (except the gussets, and sometimes they need adjustment). Almost every piece needs trimmed or coped or bent in some way.

[jdanneel]

thanks !!!

I raised the same question to a guy in France who is building the same machine, and I am wondering what his answer will be ??

From the plans I got I could figure out the 2" and 1.5" for the subwing, and my plans show the front carry through as 2" as well, but then again,as you said, the plan is more or less a copy of the N17 with measurments errased and changed, and maybe that one was forgotten....

I learned a lot from your posts, and they will come in very handy once I start building, thanks for sharing this (apart from the coke and rust thing, thatone I knew, it crossed the Atlantic some 70 years ago)

enjoy

[Frank Giger]

The only way to be certain is to get ahold of the materials list....and that's a State Secret. Loads of stuff is detailed by spec in the plans, but its usually fittings. The tubing itself, including spars, isn't.

[Frank Giger]

Here's my handy-dandy super brake handle installed on the stick:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake009.jpg

It runs down and along the floor, joined by zip ties, until it splits and runs down the gear legs, also held by zip ties:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake011.jpg

Until the cables connect to the brakes:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brake010.jpg

As always, there's some drama to go with even such a simple task! First off, that little spacer/bushing at the rear of the brake has an allen wrench fitted bolt that is threaded in it.

I'd lost one of them. Gone. After tearing apart my work area - and I mean just tearing it apart - I had given up and looked online to see where I could get one (no place around here, from scooter repair places to bike shops, has them). They cost about a buck fifty. Shipping, even after calling and talking about sticking one in an envelope and putting a regular stamp on it, was at a minimum eleven dollars. Crazy town stuff.

I had worked up a cable stop of my own using a regular spacer and a drilled bolt. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would work until I stopped steaming about paying shipping costs and broke down and paid it any way.

But I didn't have an allen wrench that would fit the bushing thingie I had, so I bought a socket set (since I need a metric set for another project) that had the wrenches as part of it. It's one of those "36 piece complete set" briefcase deals. Anyhow, I opened up, popped out the allen wrenches, and immediately dumped all the sockets in the set on the floor. Jeepers and other bad words.

I put on the left brake and discovered that the way the handle is rigged one can't get good purchase with just one cable connected. Hmmm, if one cable fails, no brakes. I guess that's a good thing in one way - no running in circles when a cable breaks.

Sigh. Might as well pick up all those sockets I spilled all over the place. I quickly found all but one, the 4mm one. Maybe it's in the crook of the work bench, behind the L shape of the leg. Reach behind it and feel it there. Humph, figures.

But it wasn't the socket.

It was the stupid cable lock bushing I had spent hours last week looking for!

Well, that 4mm socket has gone to the tool gods in the sky - never found it after a further minor search - but I could care less. Good swap of sacrifices, building gods!

Adjusting the tension on these brakes is going to be a PITA. Right now they're too tight - there's some friction as placed - but I'll have to loosen them up all the way to remove the wheels to cover them anyway. But I know it works and it'll just be a matter of dinking with them.

[planecrazzzy]

Seeing you cable routed from in front of that tube... causes a tighter bend in the cable... more friction...and wear...

Coming from behind the tube would decrease the radius...


I found some cable guides at bike shops that helped with tight bends... they cost about $3 bucks each... I'll post some samples...

They are Teflon coated cable guides.

Gotta Fly...
JAM
.

.
.
http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4521&stc=1http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4522&stc=1

[Frank Giger]

Hey, those are great! I like how they clean things up nicely, as my cables are, um, not floppy but flexing a bit and not truly fixed like I want them.

I (heart) the EAA.

[Bud K]

Great Thread, Frank. I have been looking at the Baslee designs for some time. I am looking for a project. Keep up the good work and posting pics.

Bud

[Frank Giger]

Well, you're in luck, as I should be putting some up tomorrow!

Since putting on the leading edges to the wings and covering I haven't had the airplane together. Before I take the plunge and make the move out to the airport it's gotta be done - and I finally have weather amiable to it.

Naturally it's been a comedy of errors (as usual), but things have sorted themselves out.

[Frank Giger]

Well, she's put together, and as I thought there is some work to be done.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep001.jpg

Right lower wing, taken from the front - it's a bit tight, and the leading edge got a wrinkle. Sigh oh sigh.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep002.jpg

Left wing had the opposite problem - I reckon I bowed in the top of the rib during covering. This is not a huge problem, though. I can always tape it over!

;)

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep003.jpg

Making the cut for the elevator push rod was one of those "wait a minute" things, but it had to be done.

Note that I forgot to put the bolt into the vertical stab rod at the bottom of the fuselage!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep004.jpg

Still, all in all she's pretty.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep005.jpg

And the hero shot, naturally!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep006.jpg

[Frank Giger]

Wife came out into the back yard to see what I had been doing for the last two days on the plane and took my picture.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep007.jpg

Naturally I ran into the house and put on some more appropriate headgear!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prep008.jpg

:cool:

[cub builder]

Nice job Frank.

[planecrazzzy]

GREAT JOB so far...

and you can't even see any SPIT on the plane from making airplane NOISES !!!!!
.
Gotta Fly...
.
.

[Floatsflyer]

Very impressive and you look quite satisfied sitting in it. Are the neighbours curious and inquisitive about this airplane in their backyards?

[Frank Giger]

Thanks, y'all.

The neighbor behind me, who can look right over my back fence from his porch said it looked great.

My next door neighbor has four kids - two boys aged seven and eight, and two girls ages three and one, and they came over last night to climb over it and take turns in moving the controls and asking questions. He and his wife are better Catholics than I am, that's for sure!

The neatest thing was his three year old daughter who was wondering why she was being dragged into my back yard. She just stopped in her tracks when she saw the plane and stared at it. With that look. The one all of us flyers have had. The boys were jerking on the controls and running their mouths. She stood on the seat and ran her hands over the combing of the cockpit, looking about at the plane and leaning left and right to look around the nose.

I'm no expert on early childhood development, but I think I may have caused a spark.

[Floatsflyer]

The neatest thing was his three year old daughter who was wondering why she was being dragged into my back yard. She just stopped in her tracks when she saw the plane and stared at it. With that look. The one all of us flyers have had. The boys were jerking on the controls and running their mouths. She stood on the seat and ran her hands over the combing of the cockpit, looking about at the plane and leaning left and right to look around the nose.

I'm no expert on early childhood development, but I think I may have caused a spark.

You may very well have done just that. Too bad you don't have a 2nd hole in that Nieuport.

[Frank Giger]

GREAT JOB so far...

and you can't even see any SPIT on the plane from making airplane NOISES !!!!!
.
Gotta Fly...
.
.

I was pretending she had an authentic engine and it was blipped off, silly man!

A few notes are in order on some details I either hadn't mentioned or didn't flesh out:

I don't think I'm going to do anything about that lower wing's leading edge buckle right now. Cutting the fabric back, moving the rib's angle slightly and trimming back the end of the edge isn't something I'm amiable to at this point. Maybe at the first conditional inspection.

I haven't mentioned that I put some tension on the control column's forward and back motion. Not much, but it's not loosey goosey as it is on the aileron control. This plane has a lot of elevator for its size and with a lot of travel - and I can see where it could be a recipe for trouble.

She's not exactly trailer friendly. Because I was miserly in the amount of hole I cut for access, in many places it's like that Operation game we played as kids, with starting bolts held with needle nose pliers. But I'm not planning on dragging her to airshows and junk. I just want to fly up and down the Coosa river and visit exotic places like Albertville and Fort Payne here in Alabama, so that's okay to me.

[Bud K]

Airplane noises. That's exactly what I thought when I saw the pic. Only thing missing now is the silk scarf, an engine, tires,... small stuff. :)

[Todd copeland]

Frank,
is your plane capable of using a Rotec Radial for power? It's a cool little airplane with a VW but a Rotec would put it odd the charts cool. Wind in your face flying, definitely will cause the fun meter to peg!

[jimdc8]

Looks really nice Frank! Good job! Will definitely be a fun machine!

Jim

[Sam Buchanan]

I just want to fly up and down the Coosa river and visit exotic places like Albertville and Fort Payne here in Alabama, so that's okay to me.

Looking good, Frank!

Plan on making a swing by Pryor Regional (DCU) while ripping about the North Alabama skies. An adversary will be lurking in wait for you:

My D.VII Project (http://fokkerd7.com)

[Frank Giger]

Totally sweet!

Perhaps we could meet at Guntersville and fly around South Sadi....they'd look awesome along the water and mountain.

Heck, I may have to venture up your way to take a look....awesome aircraft!

[planecrazzzy]

Frank,
is your plane capable of using a Rotec Radial for power? It's a cool little airplane with a VW but a Rotec would put it odd the charts cool. Wind in your face flying, definitely will cause the fun meter to peg!


Hey Frank... I forget what engine you already bought... It looked nice...

What is it... and what's the HP ?

Gotta Fly...
.

PS This is one of the reasons I like my Building Log.... Everything is in sections... instead of rolling along...
When I want to look at engine stuff or add to that part of the log... it's easy to do.
and it counts how many times it was looked at... One has over 18,000 views
http://www.wingsforum.com/viewforum.php?f=320

[Frank Giger]

The VW is a 1915cc on direct drive...don't know the exact horsepower because Valley Engineering put it together and they're experts, but we'll say around 90. Maybe a touch more due to electronic ignition, etc.

My actual builder log is like yours - sections (Fuselage, wings, etc.) - but this thread is as it comes.

Using the theory that when one faces an obstacle during the build one should defer it whenever possible and work on something else, I'm covering the wheels. Fabric's on and I'm touching up the paint. Pics later.

[Frank Giger]

Oh, and your forum log is awesome!

[Frank Giger]

So let's cover those wheels! First, though, I had to remove some rust spots that had come back since removing it all. Enough of that crap, I painted the wheel after scrubbing with aluminum foil and Coke-Cola.

Stealing shamelessly from the KC Dawn Patrol, right down to the brand of contact cement they used, I went with their method.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl006.jpg

I had some scrap fabric that was just large enough to cover the wheels. It's got some dirt on it, but to heck with it, I reckon it won't matter.

I started in the center to make sure the short sides were hanging over enough to bite onto the wheel rim.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl007.jpg

Glued and shrank. The glue nor the fabric goes over the lip inside the wheel that the tire fits into.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl008.jpg

Measuring for the hole. I used a bicycle pump end for my diameter and used a hole saw bit that matched it to draw a circle. Sharpie marks show on both sides of the fabric to get me aligned.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl009.jpg

I sourced some thin aviation grade cardboard to make a reinforcing ring for the hole.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl010.jpg

The inside was the same, minus the air pump hole. I just made a slit in the middle to fit over the brake drum.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl011.jpg

[Frank Giger]

Ready for paint. Put on primer and pondered.

I could go solid colors to match the rest of the plane, but darn if there isn't anything really personal about it.

So I put blue on the insides and made an Alabama flag of the outsides using spray paint.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/whl012.jpg

The lines are straight - the wheel covering is convex, making it look goofy.

[Todd copeland]

Wow, those wheels look great Frank.

[planecrazzzy]

wow, those wheels look great frank.


ditto !

[jdanneel]

good idea to cover the wheels with fabric,
now I know where to save another "millipound" on the W&B

a bit late, but cutting the hole for the valve on the inside ....

summer is in the air

johan

[Frank Giger]

It's a fig leaf to historical accuracy. That's where they put the holes in 1915.

Thanks for the kind words. Big thunderstorms today, and it's all my fault. I have finally figured out how to do the transition piece from the top of the fuselage to the side sheeting and am really eager to get on with it.

Never fails...

[Frank Giger]

No pictures, as my main PC is down for maintenance, but work on the cockpit combing and the transition piece at the side sheeting to fuselage continues. I cut up a vinyl long coat for the material and it's worked out pretty well so far!

[Frank Giger]

Well, let's put up some pics to prove I ain't just telling stories about doing work on the plane.

First up is the cowling stuff. The wife surrendered a long vinyl coat for the cause, and I gleefully cut it up. The part that formed the front of the coat had a lovely seam on it that seemed to me to be perfect for the transition between side sheeting and top of the fuselage.

I measured it up to put a peg every two inches (four inches between them on either top or bottom:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl000.jpg

I spent waaayyy too much time trying to figure out how to make a peg with a lip at the top to hold a leather shoe lace. Turns out a little bit of copper tubing, a small pipe cutter, and some time in front of the TV was just what was needed. A small washer on a long 1/8" rivet over them worked well.

The pipe cutter idea is a gift from the EAA. I had brought my test sheet with a bunch of riveted stuff up there and the copper tube part was tilted owing to my poor work with a dremel cut off tool...one of the guys said I should have just used a small pipe cutter. Naturally I laughed as I actually have one and it never dawned on me to actually use it!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl001.jpg

The strip is three inches across - one inch above the longeron and two below. I didn't want any holes in my longerons or to rivet the side sheeting to the fuselage!

The problem was the forward most gusset and the one in the rear. I couldn't put the rivet through them, obviously, so I just drilled through the side sheeting, made a mark, and then enlarged the 1/8" hole to where the rivet fits through it. Clearly I was off on my first guesses on placement and had to move the holes to keep from hitting the tubes underneath.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl002.jpg

The gusset in the rear had a more difficult fit, as it's two tubes that meet together in an inverted vee shape. To find the right placement I took a couple of small rare earth magnets, one on the inside and one on the outside of the sheeting. Worked really well, as you can see.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl003.jpg

All laced up! I'll go back and paint the pegs.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl004.jpg

The cowling around the fuselage was simple - coat material over pipe insulation and a boot lace through holes. The back of the cockpit is actually the collar to the coat.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cwl005.jpg

I'll adjust the boot laces to get rid of some of the sausage effect. But it's gooder enough for me.

[Frank Giger]

I've been fussing with the notion of the rudder pedal stops for a long time, and none of my solutions I drew out were worth a flip. Spoke to Robert Baslee about it and he steered me the right direction.

He said to run a bolt of "all thread" back from the firewall to the pedals. Simple enough.

Okay, not so simple. The firewall is just a sheet of aluminum and it moves some when pressure is put on it. Either I could adjust the length of the pedal throw based on the warping of the firewall or find a way to stop it.

The former is wrought with disaster - repeatedly bending a sheet of metal with a rod stuck through it seems like something that is the start of an accident chain in a report. So it's on with the latter!

First is a reinforcing plate of thin steel, painted thickly to keep different metals apart.

It helped a great deal on the warping of the firewall issue and I'd of put it there even if the firewall was rock solid, but there was still some play.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pdl001.jpg

I wracked my brain over how to stabilize the bolt, drawing up complex shapes of aluminum and other crazy stuff when it struck me that all I needed was a nice curved bit of metal with some bends in it to make it beefy.

Shelf supports. They're strong, light, and cost about a buck fifty each in the aircraft section of Lowe's.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pdl002.jpg

It worked.

I also put two long bolts on the end. This makes the length of the stop adjustable. It's much easier to adjust the length of the stop than the rudder cable itself, and the differences between throws if one is different from the other is so small one would never notice it with one's feet.

The wife was coming out of the door as I was coming back into the house to tell her what a smart fellow she married, gone to check the mail. Ha! Gotcha!

She reluctantly squeezed into the tight space behind the tail and I explain that I need to know how far from the up-and-down thingie the swishy tail thingie is when it's from one side to the other. I threw her a ruler to help out, and climbed into cockpit.

Full left rudder, bring the elevator up.

"Now go the other way," she says.

Full right rudder. *whack*

"Ow, you should tell me if you're going to do that. I meant the other thing."

So for fifteen minutes we totally miscommunicate as she measures the distance from the rudder to the elevator, I hop out to make minor adjustments, hop back in, whack her with either the rudder or the elevator, and wind up with about 3/4 an inch on each side clearance. It's a lot of rudder even with that large safety zone of space between the two - without a vertical stab it should be pretty interesting when she gets in the air!

Sherry also confirmed I had measured the cable lengths to the tail wheel correctly - when the rudder is straight, so is the wheel. I had used a brick on each of the pedals to make the rudder center, centered the wheel, and swagged the cables together - not very scientific, but it worked out!

[Frank Giger]

I tend to agonize over little things in projects; it's the finishing touches that make me nuts more than the big things. I once did a free decent down a two hundred foot cliff only to trip over a rock stepping away from it at the bottom to land on my ass, after all.

So it is with putting the markings on my tail. The "Big N" in particular had me vexed.

Now the experten go to print shops, use hole punching wheels along the edges, puts that on the plane, makes little marks on the plane with the hole, and make art with perfect edges.

I went another way.

I looked through various photographs I'd taken at Gardner and Liberty Landing and found that I had taken a pretty decent photo of Dick Lemon's N11 from the side.

Well, decent in that it was flat on to the tail, which is what I needed.

I slapped into MicroSoft PowerPoint, scaled it up to fill most of the page, printed it, and then cut out the N with an exacto knife.

This was laid onto the tail and the hole traced with a pencil. The pencil lines were then used as a guide for painter's tape.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/n001.jpg

Out to the paint shed, which means I leaned it up against the fence in the back yard after taping paper all around the rest of it to cover the tail.

I shot it first with some white to fill the inevitable little gaps in the paint, giving me a clean edge with the black.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/n002.jpg

Pulling the tape off with it still wet, naturally I had to let the tape curl, touch the right side of the letter, and pull that paint off.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/n003.jpg


The bottom left of the letter doesn't match the right side of the curve.

A little work with a sharpie pen in freehand and the white spots are removed and the curve at the bottom of the letter is symmetrical.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/n004.jpg

Whew.

Note the picture next to the rudder. It's not the example I used. I carried the wrong picture out with me for reference into the back yard, but figured there was no use in going back for the other one - what I made is what I made.

[Hal Bryan]

I don't tell you this nearly enough, Frank, but thank you for continuing to post the updates on your Nieuport. It's one of my very favorite parts of our forums, and is always inspiring. Keep up the great work! I can't wait to see it here in Oshkosh one of these days - it's going to be quite the celebrity airplane!

[Frank Giger]

* Blush *

Thanks for your kind words. I think if I ever flew it to Oshkosh they'd make a new parking section called "Comedy Relief" and hold forums on it with titles like "Poor Craftsmanship - Why?" and "Gooder Enough Usually Isn't." :)

Leaving off the bottom lettering for the tail for a minute, I decided to tackle two other tasks that need done - the cable exits from the fuselage and the aileron push rod exits.

I decided just to put down some leather(ish) patches where the cables go back to the rudder and the tail wheel. It's a simple thing that doesn't require a lot of muss or fuss.

I had measured what was needed to cover my slits in the fabric and let the cable through and began to muck about marking circles with varying degrees of success, as I broke the needle end of the small plastic compass.

I've been breaking a lot of things lately, it would seem.

I also kicked over my plastic "smokeless" ashtray cup in the garage (I never, ever smoke in the house) and broke it. So I've been borrowing one of the wife's Coke bottles for that duty, throwing them out when they fill with butts.

Frustrated, I decided to grab some coffee and enjoy a cigarette while I contemplate the right combination of profanity that will make this simple task go smoothly. And set the Coke bottle down on what was the sleeve of the wive's long coat.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pch001.jpg

Um, the bottom of the bottle was just the right size! Eureka! I'll put "not worth a hair in the pimple on a frog's posterior" into reserve for something else.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pch002.jpg

Pretty scary how well that went.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pch003.jpg

Now, then, when I put the sheeting on the top of the fuselage forward of the cockpit I made some overly generous and somewhat asymmetrical holes for the aileron push rods to go through. They work great but are ugly as sin.

One may notice some little Sharpie marks around that hole; they're marking about where the rods move. The rods themselves have a little movement as they go up and down, owing to some give to the rod end mounts and not being perfectly over each other (about an eighth an inch). This isn't a problem, of course - just have to give them some play room.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prd001.jpg

What I want is a nice plate to cover that ugly hole, something done precisely and with only the best materials, preferably designed and checked in 3D in a CAD program.

I opted for some folded up paper instead, though, along with some pencil marks.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prd002.jpg

I sourced some scrap sheeting and an aileron control rod gusset hole bushing* to complete the work.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prd004.jpg

* Sold under the odd brand name of "toilet tank gasket."

[planecrazzzy]

Wait.... What ???

The Firewall is ALUMINUM ????

That's no Firewall....

I thought they had to be Galvy or Stainless Steel...

Aluminum MELTS...

Does Aluminum pass for a Firewall...

I know it'll fail with a Fire...
.
Gotta Fly...

PS Mine is Stainless Steel.... Galvy produces Toxic fumes when heated with fire...
.

[Frank Giger]

It's actually very thin steel - I am just so used to typing aluminum that's all I know how to write.

[edit]

On fire - with a three-quarters cowl (the lower third is cut away, exposing the engine), fire is going to wind up exiting the compartment and along the bottom of the fuselage if it gets going. That's one of the reasons I opted for a wooden floor (as in the original) versus running fabric all the way up, as a lot of folks do with these replicas.

[planecrazzzy]

Yep... Hope for the Best...

Prepare for the Worst...
.
Gotta Fly...

JAM

[Frank Giger]

So my son is graduating High School and apparently my wife thinks that stuff like getting him decent clothes to wear under the gown (they actually have a dress code for that!), getting him to various functions associated with it, and other junk is more important that getting some of the final stuff done on my airplane before taking it out to the airport.

I'm down to mounting the throttle, painting the top of the forward bit of the fuselage, and doing some touch-up paint before making its journey.

[pittsdriver3]

Frank, Have you got your engine installation done? You might want to get that done before you haul it to the airport. Don

[Frank Giger]

Nope, it'll be installed at the airport under expert guidance.

[jdanneel]

Looking forward to hear from your first flight !

[planecrazzzy]

Also looking forward to seeing pictures of the engine installation.
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Gotta Fly...
JAM

[Frank Giger]

Not as much as I am!

With my son's graduation from High School out of the way ("Welcome to the ranks of the unemployed," I said), time to tighten things up in order to take her out to the airfield.


First is that area forward of the cockpit. I was concerned about glare from the off white underbelly of the upper wing, so taped it off:


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/top001.jpg


(if you think that's bad, you should see what I can do to a Christmas present)


And painted it flat black.


Looks gooder enough for me!


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/top002.jpg


Bob Ross said there are no accidents in painting, only happy opportunities. I think I had one of those.


I had done a test piece of sheet using three layers: a primer, white gloss, and then aluminum paint. It was nice and smooth and pretty.


Well, when I did the same for the aluminum of the cheek cowls, I suppose I was a little impatient and sprayed the aluminum before the white was completely dry.


Little ridges popped up all over it in random patterns, giving it a texture.


I'm not sure if I like it or not....gonna take it out into the sunshine to see how it looks. If not, I'll sand it down and do over.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/chkcowl.jpg

[Frank Giger]

Sometimes a fresh perspective after a day is really helpful. My idea of painting the forward part of the fuselage was sound, but it sure does show every rivet and when I tape up the cable holes they'll stand out like nobody's business. Little ugly things like that can serve to be a turd on top of a wedding cake....that's all anyone remembers.


So tomorrow I'm going to just cover it with fabric, paint it, and make slits for the cables to slip through.


I also got my hangar. It's a bit further than I like - Talledega (yes, right next to the famous race track) - but it has a lot going for it. First, the bulk of my EAA brethren have hangars there. Second, I got a huge T hangar with electricity for 115 USD a month. Indeed, my little plane will probably fit entirely within the back of the T.


The reason for the price is that there's an inch wide gap in the doors at the sides from floor to ceiling. When it rains water gets into the hangar. But it doesn't pool inside and just makes the first three feet wet.* It'll never touch the plane.


Because the two main doors (it's split, rolling left and right from the center) will open wide enough for the plane to fit through, I could just run duct tape over the gap.


So next week after I clean up the plane it's out to a hangar.


* There are water marks on the floor showing just that. One can see where it's been, thanks to pollen and the clean marks.

[Frank Giger]

Well, the more I looked at the top of the front of the fuselage the more I disliked it.

So I covered and painted it:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/top003.jpg

The color matches, it's a trick of the light that makes it look darker.

The next was my break lines. I had just zip tied them to the gear legs, and it was kind of rinky-dink. So I put them through the gear legs (and painted a little):

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/brakeline.jpg

And got to my first repair. Well, the first in a long time. My step hole is reinforced with an aluminum U, but it didn't loop around the bottom longeron. Naturally I caught a foot in it and ripped it right on out:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/step001.jpg

Good grief! Well, I cut some spare tubing, split it, and flattened one end to give me a J shaped piece that fits around the longeron, riveting it into the U shaped piece.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/step002.jpg

I got so thrilled at coming up with an easy solution I didn't tape over it before covering and painting it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/step003.jpg

Oh well, at least I won't be ripping up the side of the plane getting in now. The color actually matches perfectly - it wasn't quite dry all the way when I took the picture.

[planecrazzzy]

Hey Frank,
I'm not really sure why you didn't reinforce the other side of that Aluminum Step hole/ Fabric guide...

Seems like it could rip like it did before...?

If your lapping that Gusset...

Maybe a quick rivet would secure the aluminum "U"... ?

That hole will be used a lot... Twice each flight at Minimum....

It's hard to see... But maybe the "U" is already shielded by the Gusset...?
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Gotta Fly...
JAM
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[Frank Giger]

Well, to be honest the reason I didn't reinforce the other side of the step U is I wasn't sure if my first solution would work. I just cut a piece of thick tubing of the same diameter as the longeron as wide as the step guide, cut it length wise, and then using a screw driver and other wedges that seemed to work widened it until I could get some purchase on it. Then I beat on one end of the tube until it was flat with a hammer. I have no idea how it turned out to be just what I wanted - a J shaped piece of tubing that fit over the longeron. It actually goes around half of the longeron, poking up through the fabric underneath.

All the bad force is upwards, and I really don't want to put a hole in the longeron if I can avoid it. I reckon it won't elongate and it sure won't slide. Missing the hole on the way out results in a mark on the fabric - the thin aluminum won't catch on a shoe or boot.

The position of the hole is such that if a toe drags or pokes hard into the hole it's on the rear.

I may well reinforce the front of the U, though. I've got the scrap for it, and now I know how to make the piece. The only time I throw away scrap is when it has stuck into my skin. I have used some of the tiniest pieces for things - heck, I've used the thin trimmed pieces about an eighth of an inch wide as a grabber for washers that have fallen down.

A couple other notes - painting the plane with latex has been a blessing. Since the fuselage is exposed to the elements (my Wonder Tarp Tent blocks the sun, which is the big deal, and most of the rain), dust and junk collect on the plane. Cleaning it is as simple as a little soap and water.

Running the brake lines through the gear was far more of a chore than it should have been, but I've been missing drama in my life of building so it was kind of refreshing. It seems entirely too simple - drill two holes and run a cable through them.

Heck, Rule 11 of building, "Cut nothing until you have to" made things easier, as I've got a huge amount of brake cable to feed through the holes before I get to the sheathing.

Time for the Tool Hunt. What's required? A little allen wrench to loosen the brake line from the brake itself. A 3/16 inch drill bit. No problem! Open up the bit holder - one missing. Son of a...start looking around the work table. Found it! Oh, it's in terrible shape. That's why I didn't put back in the drill holder. I needed to replace it. Hmmm, forget it, I can go one bigger if I can't find the replacement bit I know I bought. Maybe it's in the storage shed.

Open up the socket set briefcase to get the allen wrench to loosen the cable from the brake. Pull out wrenches - one missing. For the love of Pete, are there evil gnomes messing with me at night? Crap in a hat, it's a conspiracy! Grumble a bit about how it's a pretty important tool and impossible to replace without buying a whole 'nother wrench set. Easy to lose, too. Something I should have placed where I could....oh, I did. I've got a plastic bin from a fishing tackle box that I keep all the nuts and bolts required to put the plane together kinda sorted to purpose. I put the allen wrench in with them because it's small and easy to lose.

What a clever fellow I am! Good thinking!

Hmmm, drill bit. Drill bit. 3/16 bits are something I've used a lot, and I know I bought several. Last time I used one is right before I got the replacement drill (needed a new battery and it was cheaper to buy the identical drill with one than a replacement by itself)....check the old drill. Sure as heck, pull out the old one and there it is, and in good shape! Slap a battery on it and I'm all ready with the bit in place!

Drill the holes.

Getting the wire into the top hole is no problem. How to get it out of the bottom one? Try grabbing it through the hole with a looped twisty tie. Nope, too big with the cable in it to come through the hole. Try grabbing it with a bit of safety wire looped. Impossible. The cable doesn't want to bend for me. Run the brake cable through the hole all the way to keep it in one place and out of the mud. Drink some coffee and wipe sweat (it's approaching 95 degrees in the tent). Notice the end of the brake cable is at the bottom of the gear leg. Ah. Run safety wire from the bottom hole through the end of the gear, wrap it around the end of the brake cable, and use it as a guide to pull the cable through. That wasn't such a chore was it?

The other leg, however, isn't cooperating. The cable doesn't want to pop out of the end of the gear, no matter how much I twist it about. Try the loop catch thing, which works about as well as the last time, which is to say not as all. Maybe I can go the other way? Run some safety wire up the leg from the bottom hole to the top. Aha! This I can loop and catch pretty easily with another bit of safety wire. Wrap and pull it through.

Time spent? Two friggin hours. Two hours to pull a cable through two holes, twice.

[Frank Giger]

Hmmm, I'm of the mind to get the engine mounted before taking her out to the airport.

I've seen a lot of pictures of folks dangling engines on firewalls to mount them, but I think I'm going a different way.

My engine weighs around 150 pounds with accessories, and my mount about five. So it's occurred to me to mark the mount to center/line of thrust, take it off the airplane, fit it to the engine, mark the spots for drilling, drill it, and then put the mount back on the plane.

Then I can simply raise the engine to the mount, put the bolts in, and tighten.

Anybody see a problem with this technique?

[Todd copeland]

Sounds like a good plan to me. I know with the lycoming dyno focal the challenge is getting the engine on the mount itself. I needed to have the mount on my plane so I could leverage against it to get it on the mounts. If your engine goes on the mount easily I think you have a good plan.

[planecrazzzy]

Hey Frank,
One thing to keep in mind...

When I was fitting up my Engine mount... I asked the question...

With "Tolerance".... plus or minus.... WHICH WAY should I favor...

The reply I got was plus "Right"..... Zero - Left....

So aside from getting it PERFECTLY straight.... If it's "off" a little.... Favor "Right"
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Or Does YOUR engine turn the opposite ???? If so... Go the other way...
Ask someone you know with the same engine...?
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Gotta Fly...
JAM
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[Frank Giger]

Yes, it turns "the other way."

From other builders of type, trying to bring the thrust line to the left results in a lot of work with little effect; but a little down angle is desired (about five degrees). Those with straight on mounts say it's not enough to make much of a difference, as in the end the plane is ground trimmed for cruise at the vertical stab.

One of the things that drew me to this particular plane is that it's sedate; apart from a few quirks owing to the free flying rudder they're analogous to a Champ - everyone who pilots these says Champ time is the best way to be prepared for them. I wouldn't say I'm a great pilot, but I can work the stick of a Champ pretty well in the air and all of my takeoffs and landings have been on pavement with a model that doesn't have the "no bounce" gear (so why don't they call it the "bounce gear?").

I was asked once why I've spent most of my time doing touch-and-goes, and my response was that's where the trouble lays in flying a tail wheel. That and it's my favorite thing to do in an aircraft, apart from flying down the river at 500 feet AGL.

The mount itself is a sort of double bar H placed on its side. The long ends run flush across the firewall and connect to bolts coming out of the longerons, and the vertical bars between them spaced to fit the back of a VW engine. One simply drills holes and runs bolts through them (or fits a nut at the longeron bolts). It's simplicity that's oddly beautiful by my way of thinking.

The starter will poke back from the engine, and rather than extend it outwards (which will have CG implications) I'll cut the firewall and make a box for it on the inside.

Changing subjects, I made a mess of the 7/8ths scale Lewis gun kit. It's formed PVC, and I mucked up cutting it out of the forms and mating the sides together. Naturally I fixed it to the point of being ugly, and no repair will make it anything other than ugly. So I bought some wood and will use it as a pattern for a replacement.

[planecrazzzy]

Cool....GUNS....
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Yeah the Idea was just putting any tolerance on the proper side...

Not trying to compensate for anything...

Mine compensates "P" factor torque by off-setting my Vertical Stabilizer by 1/2"
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You say compensating "Down"..... Was that in the Design or because of the Engine your using...

I think Free Flight models do that with their engines...
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Gotta Fly...
JAM
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[Frank Giger]

Inherent in the design, as the lower wing has an angle of incidence that tends to pitch the nose up. But the guys back in 1914 didn't have CAD-CAM and computer modelling.

[Frank Giger]

Cool....GUNS....

What else does one put on the upper wing of an aircraft? Blinking lights?

:)

[Frank Giger]

I'll put up pics later, but the gun is done except for the handle and painting.

I received a message from Mirka, a guest to our forums from Poland - and his English is much better than my Polish - that was encouraging. It's nice to know that folks can see a plane can be built in the most primitive of conditions and figure they can do it themselves.

[jdanneel]

Frank, if all the people who follow your project would donate one dollar, you could run for president...

if you win the election (without any doubt), you'll have no time left to fly, and I understand this is not something you want ;)

keep it going

johan

[Frank Giger]

I could never be POTUS.

"I'd like to go flying today."
"Sorry, Mr. President, there's a TFR."
"Dang."

[Two weeks later]

"I'd like to go flying today."
"Sorry, Mr. President, there's a TFR."
"Again? Sheesh! It's like that darned thing is following me around wherever I go!"

[Sam Buchanan]

It's actually very thin steel - I am just so used to typing aluminum that's all I know how to write.

[edit]

On fire - with a three-quarters cowl (the lower third is cut away, exposing the engine), fire is going to wind up exiting the compartment and along the bottom of the fuselage if it gets going. That's one of the reasons I opted for a wooden floor (as in the original) versus running fabric all the way up, as a lot of folks do with these replicas.

Frank, if your firewall came with the kit, stick a magnet to it to see if it is indeed steel. The firewall that shipped with my D7 kit was 6061 aluminum which is unacceptable for a firewall. I replaced it with 26g galvanized steel.

[Frank Giger]

Yep, it is aluminum. Hmmm, gonna have to think that one through.

Gun is almost done, and I started work on the windscreen.

[pittsdriver3]

I have used this on several airplanes. A little spendy but how much is your life worth. Get their fireproof glue to go with it. Don
http://www.brownaircraft.com/product_p/ct-190-36.htm

[rv8bldr]

Here in Canada at least, the firewall MUST be steel, not aluminum. I just bought a big piece of stainless from Aircraft Spruce for my Bearhawk. You do NOT want just a piece of aluminum between you and that roaring fire under the cowl...

[Sam Buchanan]

Here in Canada at least, the firewall MUST be steel, not aluminum. I just bought a big piece of stainless from Aircraft Spruce for my Bearhawk. You do NOT want just a piece of aluminum between you and that roaring fire under the cowl...

Especially with the aluminum fuel tank just two inches behind the "firewall"...... :eek:

[bookmaker]

For stainless steel for firewalls, check with local metal cabinet shops. I was able to get a piece of .032" stainless cut 42" perfectly round by a local shop for less than the shipping on a piece of square sheet steel.

Dale

[Frank Giger]

Hmmm, I'm thinking I can mount steel over the aluminum, which will keep me from undoing a lot of the work already done. One of the easier things.

Either that or start carrying a pistol in the cockpit as they did in WWI. ;)

[Sam Buchanan]

Hmmm, I'm thinking I can mount steel over the aluminum, which will keep me from undoing a lot of the work already done. One of the easier things.

Either that or start carrying a pistol in the cockpit as they did in WWI. ;)

That should work, I even considered that option (not the pistol...) when I changed my firewall. I ended up saving part of the old "firewall" and replacing the majority of it behind the engine (and in front of the tank).

http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4897&stc=1

http://fokkerd7.com

[Frank Giger]

That's pretty much what I'm going to do.

[Frank Giger]

One less thing to do, one more to add to the list.

First off, the gun is done! I had made a mess of the plastic gun kit I bought and rather than just mess around with it making it even more ugly, I decided to use it as a template and make another out of wood:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lew002.jpg

Yep, that's a half inch board with some big dowels I ripped with my circular saw, some epoxy, some drywall spackle, and some sanding.

On the other side I used a bit of copper tubing after figuring out it's easier than molding that bit out of epoxy putty.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lew001.jpg

Oh, and the top bit there is some left over plastic cutting board I used as reinforcement for the turtle deck stringer.

I recycled the magazine and the barrel end from the kit.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lew003.jpg

The handle and the grips were pretty easy to do - it's just some scrap and a dowel that I didn't really clean up - I just lacquered over them as they were, with little imperfections and stuff on them.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lew004.jpg


So that's done.


Now I have to put some steel on my firewall to make it a firewall.

[Frank Giger]

The other thing I've been working on is the windscreen. What I want is something that looks Nieuport-ish without the metal frame around it.

Here's the second mock-up with cardboard, as the first with poster board wasn't robust enough to stand up:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind001.jpg

That's not quite in the right spot, but getting it to stand up was a huge challenge until I figured out a small paint can behind it worked out great.

So it's off to the aviation section of Lowe's for some thickish plexiglass - I think it's quarter inch, along with a tool for cutting it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind002.jpg

This works great for straight lines, but what about curves?

The cutting tool is really just a razor with a little knob on it and a really sharp point. Sucker can really make the red stuff flow. One just scrapes a groove into the plastic until it's about halfway through and snaps it apart on the line.

I don't know if I violated some sort of rule about cutting plexiglass, but I wound up using my jigsaw, running the blade slow enough that it didn't melt the plastic.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind003.jpg

My windscreen professionally fitted.

My plan is to use angles to hold the three pieces together and reinforce with superglue and silicone stuff.

I used a super technical technique for measuring the angle I need for them.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind004.jpg

I TLAR'd the first one and then got busy replicating it from a bit of steel I had.

B is for Bend, C is for cut. I make no apologies for idiot labeling my stuff even if it's done in one motion.

I found it easier to bend the piece, then cut it off, then bend, then cut...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind005.jpg


A little work on the sanding belt and they came out pretty good.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind006.jpg


Now to put holes in them and mount the pieces together. And then fit it to the aircraft.

[planecrazzzy]

WOW... That Gun looks VERY GOOD !!!!
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The Firewall was brought up before...

Mine is SS...

They say a Galvanized steel works... But I've welded and torched on Galv...

I've heard the fumes that come off of it are VERY POISONOUS...

I'll stick with Stainless Steel...
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Gotta Fly...
JAM
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[planecrazzzy]

Hmmm Can't find the Gun Picture...

I was going to send the picture to "Paint"....

add some dark spots on the barrel area as a suggestion for your Mock Machine Gun realism...
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Gotta Fly...
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[Frank Giger]

had to reset the server - it lost its web instance - so pictures show now.

My plan for aging the gun is to kind of lay it about and move it as needed to get to tools and junk.

[planecrazzzy]

Get the wife involved ??? Or the KId ???

Hey Frank... I took the picture to "Paint".... added some color to the barrel area to give you the idea I was thinking about for

some realistic looking detail.... I just did a little , you'll have to picture the whole barrel done...

Maybe simple gloss Black would work ? Maybe Black Duct Tape ???4903
4904
See what you think...
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Gotta Fly...

[Frank Giger]

Looks good; the early Lewis guns had a solid cooling shroud, though.

Later they realized that the airflow over the gun on an aircraft meant that it wasn't needed, and they just took them off.

[planecrazzzy]

Yeah... Come to think of it... I only remember seeing the ones without the shroud... ( Se 5 ? )

OK... Sorry... I was confused with something else.. I thought the holes weren't done in the mock gun because of Drag...

I figured the dark spots would get around that.... Sort of Tickle the eye illusion...

Gotta Fly...

[Frank Giger]

It's all pretty interesting - there was a whole lot of TLAR going on in 1915. They simply tagged on a standard Infantry Lewis gun onto the top wing, putting fixtures on the sides of the box at the front of the top center wing, and then another towards the rear. They put a turnbuckle on the rear support for adjusting elevation.

Indeed, the first ones relied on the pilot reaching up and pulling the trigger, and had the smaller 26 round magazine! In short order they got a cable attached to the stick and the larger 46 magazine, and then they figured they could just get rid of the cooling shroud. The shroud itself is a solid tube with a lot of baffles inside that touch the barrel, acting as cooling fins.

[planecrazzzy]

Well , there ya go...

We don't just build planes and fly...

We learn History while we're at it...

Thanks,
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Gotta Fly...
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[Frank Giger]

Early flight really interests me, as it's where the real engineering moxie of the guys back then came to the fore. We tend to think of them as simpler times, but in reality it was much more complex than today, owing to new technologies being leveraged against those that already existed. Airplanes were the ultimate in interdisciplinary arts - everything from cabinet making to metallurgy had to be known and used in both design and manufacture. Make it light, make it strong, and make it as inexpensively as possible - using only materials commonly available.

There was a lot of research on flight prior to the Wright Brother's figuring out how to truly control flight and Curtiss' development of the aileron, so the engineers of the day had a wealth of knowledge to work from, and as engines got better they could apply that to everything behind it. Rotating engines solved a lot of problems on the weight-to-power issue, but brought with it the gyroscopic problem; the solution was a free-flying rudder that, unlike the Wright Flyers, was unlinked from the bank controls (allowing the pilot to slip the aircraft). The early Nieuports sported both positive (lower wings) and negative (upper wings) dihedral to help it stay stable; they did this because they also made them short as they could to give them maneuverability.

They knew that biplanes were aerodynamically inefficient. But they also knew that using a box kite design gave the strength to the materials at hand far greater than the sum of the parts, so that's the format they used. From there they tweaked designs and materials as they went along, from streamlined wires to no wires at all (as in the Fokker DR1, which only got interplane struts at the insistence of the German war ministry). They worked with different airfoils, getting the best trade-offs between speed and lift.

But it's that interdisciplinary thinking that really appeals to me. They drew from every skill set in different industries and applied them to aircraft design and manufacturing, much as we homebuilders do.

[Frank Giger]

Getting back to the work at hand, as I mentioned I suck at putting down a nice smooth bead of silicone sealant/adhesive.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind007.jpg

It occurred to me that while I've opted out of having an aluminum frame around the windscreen (as in the original), I can pay a bit of homage to that with a couple of little strips over that seam.

So I used my standard "take a piece of scrap and bend it until it looks okay" method of measurement and bent a bit of aluminum.

I didn't take pictures (I didn't know if it would work), but I found that bending a larger sheet to the correct angle and then trimming it thin on a paper cutter worked really well.

I also painted the strips using the same metallic paint as the metal joiney bits and then applied silicone stuff behind them.

To mount the windscreen to the aircraft, I made little mount brackets the same way I made the ones that hold the sides to the front, with a big rivet onto the fuselage and bolts through the wind screen. There's two in the front and two in the sides.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind008.jpg

The scheme makes it a lot stronger than I thought it would. As the front is pushed back, the load is transferred along the sides, and there's a lot of surface area to take that stress. I grabbed the top of the center section and pulled back as hard as I could and it didn't budge.

Now, then, the upper edge of the windscreen which I had cut out with a jigsaw is great. It's smooth and flowing and there isn't a hitch on it, as I wasn't worried too much about it and just cut it with one motion.

The lower edge, where it meets the aircraft, however, is an entirely different matter. It's close and I've tweaked it on the band sander, but I didn't get the curve just right.

I could spend endless hours trimming here and there hoping for the perfect curve and the perfect beveled edge, but that's a pipe dream. Long experience tells me what I'd wind up doing it "improving" it right into the scrap bin.

What I need is something to cheat that edge, make it smooth, and keep air from travelling underneath it. I had good results using car door trim stuff on the seat for both appearance and smoothing, so I decided to go with that.

And immediately ran into a problem. The edge material is a square groove with a rounded tip of plastic/rubber material to make it rounded at the end, about 3/8" below the bottom of the square channel. Too much! And my windscreen is wider than the car door edge it was designed to go over, meaning I really had to abuse it to make it fit.

So I slapped in the remaining part of the steel I used to make the windshield mounts and put the belt sander to use.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind009.jpg

I brought down the bottom to where I could just see the steel underneath.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind010.jpg

Now it's about an eighth of an inch thick and flat on the bottom.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind011.jpg

Test fitted it on the windscreen and mounted.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind013.jpg

Since I wasn't sure this would work I cut it at the seam between pieces. I'll have to do it again, trimming down the sides at that join to make it one continuous seal, as well as hitting it with some steel wool to take the chrome appearance off of it.

[Frank Giger]

Here's how it looks all done:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind014.jpg


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wind015.jpg

I also found a new term: unforseen craftsmanship.

My wife was looking at the windscreen and said "one of your screws is off."

Now, I was about to go into the necessity of drilling some of the holes a little off center of the brackets in order to counter act the Coriolis effect and sunspots (always a ready explanation of my inability to center a hole on a piece of metal), when she continued,

"That one isn't going up and down."

Huh?

Well, out of 20 machine screws on the wind screen, 19 of them wound up with the screw driver slot vertical. The 20th was off by about 30 degrees.

"Um, well one of them has to be a little different from the rest in order to ensure the stresses on the installation don't loosen them all."

She almost bought it! Then she scoffs and says "you had no idea you did that!"

Nope.

[pittsdriver3]

Frank, There are over 300 philips screws in my L-21 Super Cub. All of the crosses line up as well as all the bolt heads. I think I'm mentally ill or have a bad case of ADD. Keep up the good work. The finish line is getting closer. Don

[Frank Giger]

That's actually pretty neat - but I'm not nearly that way. Heck, I'm happy when I can rivet in a straight line for more than four inches.

My FWF from Valley Engineering came with everything but the mounting bolts, so first order of business was finding out what size (3/8ths an inch) and how much I needed to back off from the Diehl case to clear it and the bolts from it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng001a.jpg

I found an inch and a half or so back would do the trick. I'm not a big fan of extending the engine forward, as I have no idea what CG problems I'd be giving myself later on.

I'll wind up cutting the firewall and making a doghouse for the starter on the inside, which I have no problem with doing.

But I can't just have a grade 8 bolt out there all naked for that inch and a half, which means I'll need a bushing around it to beef it up.

The single bushing in 3/8ths an inch isn't beefy enough, so I'll nest three together:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng002.jpg

There's a little lip inside each one to help it grab onto the next.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng003.jpg

A couple whacks with a hammer (using a wood block to keep from damaging them), and we get a nice, solid bushing that's going to keep our bolt from bending.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng004.jpg

Here's how it looks with the mount in place.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng005.jpg

Now it's just a matter of doing that three more times, make a template for the bolt holes for the engine, and then mark the mount (after I clean it up) for center of the firewall, put the template on it, and drill.

[Frank Giger]

So I measured bolt hole to bolt hole and came up with 11" between them vertically.

But is that right? It would really stink to be off because I suck with a tape measure.

So I came up with the idea to drill a yard stick and see if the bolts lined up through them:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng006.jpg

Sun's going down, so I'll wait until tomorrow to confirm horizontal distance. I don't trust to simply drill the center of the mount - best to be sure.

I'll most likely super glue some supports across and use it as a template for holes at any rate.

Oh, and note that on the stick to the left in the picture I had a problem adding eleven and came up with twelve...hence the "NO" to the "practice hole."

:rollseyes:

[Frank Giger]

Time to man up and drill some holes.

Or, rather, take a minute and measure closely on the mount and confirm some stuff.

First, I confirmed that the center of the Diehl kit is in fact the center of the crankshaft, which is the center of the prop. Simply a matter of putting a ruler on both ends of the engine.

Second, I leveled the mount while it is on the aircraft - meaning I leveled the aircraft. Easy enough.

Now, then, the center of my firewall was easy to find - I just ran a line from longeron to longeron; where they cross is the center, and more importantly the line of thrust.

I ran a level across the mount at the center:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng007.jpg

Now it was just a matter of going up and down 5 1/2 inches from my center line, and running the level across again to make a line. Then I did the same for the horizontal distance.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng008.jpg

Deep breath and on to the drill press.

From there it was back to the engine with the mount to confirm fit. Hurray!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng009.jpg

A few notes - it wasn't entirely smooth sailing. Those rubber stopper thingies have a bushing inside them, and they like to be straight and center. There's a lot going on with those bolts - washers and bushings and stuff - so those vibration stoppers were fighting all the while.

I finally figured out that lining up and starting the lower two* first, then seating the upper ones and then tightening in an X (starting from the top right) everything started to sing.

* The lower two bolts were a PITA. The case to the engine does a little cut in and down, which doesn't give a lot of room. That's why there's a bushing on the back side of the mount. Turns out I measured correctly, and the bolts snug up just fine in the space allowed.

Hell, I'm starting to think it may be easier to put the engine on the aircraft as an assembly - with the mount attached - than it will be to undo the bolts, put the mount on the aircraft, then play the "line up the bolts in the holes" game I just went through.

[Geezer]

Frank, I'm very interested in Airdrome Aeroplanes and I stumbled across this thread.

Thanks a a million for posting all your adventures in construction.

The Hun will have much to fear!

Cheers

[Frank Giger]

Aw, shucks. :cool:

At any rate, this is an example of an Airdrome Airplane being built by the most ignorant of first time builders. When they say one can be built using normal hand tools (and a few non-exotic power ones like an electric belt sander, a small cheap drill press, a little air compressor for the rivet gun) in the space of a small car garage, they ain't kidding.

Most folks take the basic plans and modify them, making them look more like actual WWI aircraft or changing things up to suit their preference and turned them into award winners. I haven't done any of that - mine's about as "stock" to the plans as one can get.

My plane won't win any awards - but that was never my goal.

I only hope she can fly straight and well.

[Frank Giger]

After some consultation with other builders, putting the engine on as an assembly with the mount attached to it is technique I'm going to use.

The starter is going to poke through the firewall, so all sorts of misadventures were at hand. I had thought to mount it with the selenoid on top, as it looks cleaner to me and kept the footprint of the engine. So I made this great template of cardboard that used the holes on the mount and told me exactly where to make the hole. Then I checked it against the firewall, and the cross brace for the fuselage intersects. Since that's Station One (or is it zero?), starting and setting the square for the front of the fuselage, there's no monkeying around with that tube.

So the selenoid has to go on bottom, which meant a new template. And confirming its measurements. The hole is cut - if I did everything right after I mount the engine the starter should go through it nicely and the bolts in without fuss. Oh, I'm leaving it off while mounting the engine; since it stands past the mount, playing Keep The Starter In The Hole And Don't Bang It Around seems like a funny story I'd rather not share later on.

Tomorrow's weather looks amiable - no rain (we don't mention that at 8 a.m. it's to be 78 degrees with 90% humidity and then thankfully gets warmer so I don't have to be bothered with the nuisance of mittens or a thick coat), so I plan on mounting the engine.

First, though, the engine had to come out of the crate and onto a dolly for transport into the back yard.

Now, then, in the crate the engine sits on a wooden cradle and is held in place with some retaining straps that are screwed into the floor of the crate. My plan was to lift the engine off of the cradle with my shop crane, pull it up, and place it on the dolly.

Except the cradle sits on a bit of plywood that is set on the floor of the crate. The cradle is screwed onto this, and the plywood is screwed down with lots and lots of wood screws.

So lower the engine back down and get to work with a drill and bit to take them all out.

Then lift the engine, put the cradle and the board on the dolly, move the crate out of the way, and then lower the engine back onto the cradle.

The last bit was sort of adventurous, as my ropes weren't quite evenly tight and there was some stretch, giving the prime mover a decided tilt to one side.

But she's ready for transport and mounting!

[Frank Giger]

I have to say that mounting the engine was pretty anti-climatic.

Not to say there wasn't the usual drama. It started when I pushed the dolly out of the garage and onto the driveway. Things went katywhompus and in very, very slow motion the engine slid off of the mount. I had a scrap bit of plywood handy and slipped it under where one of the exhaust pipes was about to hit the pavement.

So take the shop crane and lift it up, take the mount off the base piece of particle board, put the mount directly on the dolly, and lower the engine back down.

Then it was just a matter of using some of the sides of the shipping crate to slowly - really creeping - to the back yard:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng010.jpg

No, the camera's not tilted - that's the slope of my back yard. Note my Bebe pulled out and the cinder block chalks to keep it from rolling down into the fence.

So it was move it forward from one piece to another, taking into account the slope of the yard and the right hand turn I had to make. I used one of the plywood sheets for a ramp onto the concrete and it worked really well.

The airplane's out from under the tent because it's slightly longer than the concrete patio slab I've "entented" as a work shop. I needed the shop crane, engine, and aircraft nose all over that concrete, so I had to pull the plane out, turn it around, and put it back in.

My front "wall" tarp pretty much fell apart when I removed it - more on that later.

So with the plane reversed and my nifty one hundred dollar Harbor Freight shop crane (gotta love those sales and coupons), it was time to lift the tail of the aircraft, put a couple ropes on the engine, and lift it.

Go figure that I just winged the ropes and it lifted level - had I of measured anything it probably would have taken a couple hours.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng011.jpg

Note the cheap folding table, the recycle bin, bit of plywood, and block of foam hold up the tail!

The tricky thing of the bolts that come out of the longerons is that the bottom ones are actually tilted upwards. So while the engine mount was vertical, I put a little back angle on the firewall...and the bolts slipped right through the holes.

Then I lifted the tail a bit to make it vertical and the top bolts slipped in.

Couple washers and some bolts and done. No muss, no fuss, on in about fifteen minutes. I was pretty shocked.

My behind-the-mount-bushings for the lower engine mount bolts cleared the firewall just fine.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng012.jpg

A few extra notes - my hole for the starter looks dead on. I'll put it on tomorrow to make sure.

Note the extra bit of sheeting on the firewall. That's some light steel for insurance I put over the aluminum. It's a little more weight but I think it's worth it in piece of mind.

My wife wasn't surprised at all that the engine just slid onto the bolts without issue - I had done all the hard work up front so that mounting it shouldn't have been a problem. I guess she was right.

I also took the front wall tarp and draped it over the engine to keep the weather off of it. It's time to replace all the tarps, as I'm at the point of water resistance instead of water proofing.

[planecrazzzy]

Another "Milestone"... Looks nice Frank !
.
.
Gotta Fly...
JAM

[Geezer]

Something to make real airplane noises with!

[Frank Giger]

Let's build a box out of a sheet of steel!

Note that while I made a sort of plan in PowerPoint it needed some scribbles on it to make it work.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/box001.jpg

Looks like my measurements and bends worked out okay. Time to make some reinforcing tabs for the side and paint it.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/box002.jpg

Mount the starter...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/box003.jpg

And mount the box with some metal screws into some nut fittings.

After priming it I hit it with a can of gold paint I had on the shelf. The reason for making it a gold box? Because GOLD BOX, that's why!

:)

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/box004.jpg

And now a problem. I couldn't see this while mucking about with the engine in the crate, but now that it's mounted the starter shaft seems to be too short, and the teeth don't mesh with the fly wheel.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/eng013.jpg

The starter is mounted correctly - flush with the case - so I think there was supposed to be some sort of mod done to it in Missouri that didn't happen.

I shot an email to Valley Engineering, as I spotted this after they had closed for the day. I'll follow up with a phone call tomorrow.

[Frank Giger]

Okay, so I'm a bit dense - the starter gear should be retracted, as it moves forward and turns when engaged.

So yet another "sorry, I'm stupid, please ignore me" email will be sent to Valley Engineering.

[pittsdriver3]

I've done that a time or two. It's always after you've sent the email to the company that you realize you're a dummy. Don

[Geezer]

Did you wire that beauty before you put it in the "Gold box"?

[Frank Giger]

No, no electrical work has been done.

In fact, one can easily reach the connection from the engine side, and the box is in place by metal screws and can be easily removed.

[jdanneel]

and make sure the electrics stay far away from that firewall, once the engine starts jumping around ...
fireworks due to the firewall cutting the isolation is not something you want (I guess)

well, you 're almost there, good job

[Frank Giger]

Today was an EAA day for me.

Loads of folks like to talk about the Headquarters and Oshkosh and SportAviation and damned ol' "Mac" McMillian and how the organization is circling the toilet bowl, but it's never been that for me. I really don't care if they have Taco Tuesday on Friday and recite FAA 14 CFR Part 91 as a Gregorian Chant up there in Wisconsin or wherever, as I'm down here in Alabama.

Today I spent more than three hours with "Rusty" Hood from our EAA Chapter in his hangar/workshop while he showed both his complete mastery of aircraft systems and command of small words (so I could understand). I drove up befuddled about how to make both my fuel and electrical systems. I left with diagrams I understand, a list of things to buy, and a sense of relief.

I did mention we're in Alabama, didn't I? And it's a big ol' un-air conditioned hangar with the door open and a big fan. With a heat index of 105 degrees.

Want to know what the EAA is? That's what the EAA is.

[Frank Giger]

A couple of questions I'll throw out because the web isn't being helpful.

1) The black regulator box that hooks to the Diehl case has three wires. The "pluggie thing" that's obviously connected to the pluggie thing from the case.
2) A short black wire that has kind of a star cutout around the inside of the connector, and
3) A long black wire that has a smooth round connector.

Neither is labelled and I'm scratching my head as to which one is the hot and which is the ground.

Second question:

My VW is electrical ignition. Where do I hook up the tach at?

[Frank Giger]

For those scratching their heads and wondering what I'm writing about....

The regulator/adapter from the Diehl case is this black oval dealie:


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wire001.jpg


Note there are no labels - just the adapter that hooks into the Diehl alternator, a short wire and a long wire. One has to be hot and the other ground, as clearly the power is coming into the box from the connector to it, and it is supposed to give power back to the battery.


Onto the tach. Since the only connection coming off of the alternator is the plug connection, it doesn't go there.


Here's a pic of the dual coils on the engine:


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wire002.jpg


In a standard coil and distributor cap, one would just plug the tach into the hot post on the single coil (as the VDO instructions say). The next guess would be the Number One connection....but which is that?


I'm probably going to call Valley tomorrow and see if they can illuminate me on this.

[Matt Gonitzke]

Strictly a wild guess, but I'd say the short wire is the ground since there'd probably be a lot of things nearby to connect it to wherever it gets mounted in the aircraft, and the fact that the terminal end has the teeth, which would cut through paint and primer to establish a good connection to the structure when attached to a ground stud. No need for that on the hot wire that is being connected to other wiring instead of terminating at the structure.

Don't trust me though...

[Frank Giger]

That's what I suspect as well - but at 90 bucks for a replacement if I let the smoke out, I need an expert to be sure.

[jdanneel]

The short one is "probably" the ground connection
The long one is "probably" the "hot" (battery) connection
The gray connector has two wires, one is "probably" the connection after the "generator switch"
But if I see well enough there are 5 wires coming out of that regulator ....

And there are a lot of "probabilities",

Checking with the supplier wil remove the stress that comes with swithing on the MASTER for the first time, (where is that gray smoke coming from...)

have fun

johan

[planecrazzzy]

The short one is "probably" the ground connection
The long one is "probably" the "hot" (battery) connection
The gray connector has two wires, one is "probably" the connection after the "generator switch"
But if I see well enough there are 5 wires coming out of that regulator ....

And there are a lot of "probabilities",

Checking with the supplier wil remove the stress that comes with swithing on the MASTER for the first time, (where is that gray smoke coming from...)


have fun

johan


The long lead sure DOESN'T go to the Battery....

It's a Heat sink.... It goes to something that's CHARGING too much.... It's getting rid of the charge with HEAT...( See the Fins )
.
.
Maybe BOTH black wires are GROUNDS...Engine and Airframe...


Gotta Fly...
JAM

[Frank Giger]

And the answer is.....the short goes to the ground side of the battery, the long to the hot.

Planecrazzy, I didn't give you enough context - this is the voltage regulator that comes off the generator on the back of the engine. So it's got to go to the battery. That's what threw me - they can't both be grounds, or there wouldn't be a point to having an alternator.

Why for pete's sake they don't color code or label something like this is beyond me.

[jdanneel]

using one color and one size is cheaper (Made in xxxxx)

[planecrazzzy]

And the answer is.....the short goes to the ground side of the battery, the long to the hot.

Planecrazzy, I didn't give you enough context - this is the voltage regulator that comes off the generator on the back of the engine. So it's got to go to the battery. That's what threw me - they can't both be grounds, or there wouldn't be a point to having an alternator.

Why for pete's sake they don't color code or label something like this is beyond me.

Yeah the Colors would be ok if they marked it with Red Electric tape at the End by the terminal...

I figured it was getting the "Hot" from the Plug...

OK it's a regulator.... But it is still scrubbing juice with heat from those fins....

Kind of two in one...
.
Thanks for clearing that up... It was making quite a stir !
.
Gotta Fly...
JAM
.
PS I hope "YOU" mark the wires with Elec marking tape...

By the way... The way I marked a lot of wires on my first plane...
TYPE what you need on the computer... Print it... Cut it out and wrap it around the wire tightly... and Clear tape...
Seem to work on more than just wires... Especially with color ink

[Frank Giger]

Yep, those are indeed cooling fins. The unit has to be placed vertically, and if it goes over 180 degrees for extended periods it could fry.

[Frank Giger]

While I sort out how to run the fuel and electrical systems, I have been lax in showing how I mounted the oil cooler.

Simplicity itself - some steel cut and bent to fit the engine and cooler:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rad001.jpg

It came with straight fittings, but I didn't like the way the hoses would drape over the engine - so now the fittings face rearwards.

I'll run the hoses back and then up and over from the rear.

The angle is such to where the air flows through the holes in the cooler.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rad002.jpg

The back isn't blocked off, but it will still be a high pressure area to cool my oil.

[Frank Giger]

Fuel system is in!

Just a few pics for something I spent a lot of time thinking about, trying to make it simpler and less complex with every iteration.

First up is the stupid fuel strainer. I went through a host of trials using screens and stuff with little to show for it. And then I remembered the purpose of the strainer isn't to work as a filter, but to keep junk in the tank that's big enough to clog the line itself until it gets to the filter.

Hmmm, a bit of copper tubing with 1/8th inch holes drilled in it should keep 1/4" sized junk out of the lines.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel001.jpg

I flow tested it by running water through the fitting and then putting on the pipe bit - no restriction. It also marked my first soldering in about 30 years.

I want a fuel cut off, and this is where a lot of trial and error factored in. Running it over, across, down the fuselage to where I could reach it by hand and then back down to the firewall presented more problems than it solved.

The plane is just so small that no matter how I ran it either it was too close to my feet and the pedals, rubbed by the aileron control rods, or otherwise too complex.

It occurred to me that I could put it on the tank, and since it's a big lever to operate, position it so that if there was trouble I could lift my foot and kick it over.

A few trials from the seat and it's a winner. One can't accidentally bump the lever in flight, but it's not difficult to put a toe of a shoe on it with the left foot and push it shut.

No real love on returning it into position, though. One is committed when the fuel is shut off.

Note the bottom of the tank has just a plug put into it. It'll be a condition inspection item to drain the tank and pull that plug for any trash or water that might accumulate there throughout the year.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel002.jpg

On the engine side of the firewall, I put in a bog standard gascolator. First off, I like the idea of one. Secondly, I bought one about two years ago when I was on a purchase tear for stuff I might need.

The lines are fire sleeved up to the electric pump (which is below the level of the fuel tank), and then up and over to the carb.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel003.jpg

The oil lines got a clamp to the mount to keep them out of the way of the hot stuff and to clean things up a bit.

I'm thinking of putting a bit of sheeting between the pump and the exhaust pipes (there's quite a bit of room between them, but I don't know how hot they will get) as a heat shield.

Fuse box arrived in the mail today, so I'll start the prep for the electrical system, mounting everything for the wiring job.

I had to buy and mount a voltage meter onto the panel, which went amazingly well. I had room for it under the other VDO gauges and it looks aesthetically pleasing IMHO. Didn't take a pic of it, though.

[wyoranch]

Just a thought about your exhaust heat concerns. First let me say I am NOT an A & P, but on my race cars I use ceramic fiber wrap around the pipes. It lowers under hood temps by quite a bit. Of course there is probably a very good reason that you can not or should not use it on an airplane.
just a thought
Rick
p.s. Here is a link as an example.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/exhaust-wrap?ibanner=MobileSwitchNo
and here is the installation instructions for the brand I use
http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/PDF/ISheets/ExhaustWrapISheet.pdf

[Frank Giger]

I'm assuming it's light weight, and therefore worth looking into.


Of course there is probably a very good reason that you can not or should not use it on an airplane.

We never say "can not" in the world of experimentals, though we do use the phrase "should not" now and then. :)

I may be over thinking the heat from a VW exhaust pipe, though.

[pittsdriver3]

Two things Frank. You should put a drain valve on that fuel tank sump and check it before every flight. You probably figure out a way to run a hose from the valve out the bottom. Also your gascolator is unsupported. Spruce has a bracket to mount it in and you can bolt it to the firewall with some stand offs. Don

[Frank Giger]

I had a lot of conversations about the sump at the bottom of the fuel tank with my EAA brethren (including our tech advisers), and the question becomes:

If I have a gascolator to check for water before each flight, why check the sump as well?
If I check the sump before each flight, why have a gascolator? Might as just put a regular fuel filter in the line instead.

So the gas is checked in each pre-flight; I'm not that cavalier! I just see no reason to check two places on the tank before each flight.

If there is any water in the fuel at the gascolator, the tank has to be drained and the sump plug pulled, as it would in any arrangement.

On the gascolator itself, the pictures don't show just how solidly it is attached. I'll give it a bunch more looks and take into consideration the notion of additional support though - that's why I put up pictures in the first place, to get opinions on the work!

As always, thank you for all that point out possible weaknesses in the build! It's the sort of things that will keep me safer than the ideas I come up with on my own.

[planecrazzzy]

About that drain...

The one below the tank , COULD be full of water ( After Time )

and you might only drain off a little at the gascolator...

I don't know what type of maneuver you'd need... Probably inverted...

But I wouldn't want a Cup of water ready to join the fuel...
.
I agree with a way to tap that ... if not every flight...

SOMETIMES ... just for peace of mind...
.
Just My TOO SCENTS...
.
.
Gotta Fly...
JAM
.

[martymayes]

If I check the sump before each flight, why have a gascolator? Might as just put a regular fuel filter in the line instead.

There's good arguments for NOT having a gascolator. Mainly, in an event where the plane ends up on it's belly, the gascolator will likely be compromised and unless the shutoff valve is closed in the heat of the moment, it will empty the fuel tank increasing the potential for fire. Simply drain the sump during preflight and go.

[Frank Giger]

You mean on it's back, not belly?

Because if I'm in a wreck where it takes the gear off my just-over-ultralight aircraft, leaking fuel will be third or fourth down the list of things to worry about.

[Sam Buchanan]

Frank,

My D.VII has the same fuel tank as your plane. I installed a sump valve, disposable filter....and no gascolator. The sump can be easily drained every preflight, sump fuel drains down the clear hose and through the bottom of the plane.

4986

This is just a fit-up, finished installation with have clamps on the hoses. There is stainless braided hose with AN fittings firewall forward.

[Frank Giger]

Hmmm, I could run a line from the bottom to the current gasolator and just run the fuel line next to it with a filter - no need for a cutoff valve there. The gascolator gets a plug where the fuel line comes out presently - making it a sump-within-a-sump. Since it's already installed, no need to remove it.

Easy transition through the firewall in a straight through-and-through with fittings, and a filter. Put the fuel line higher than the gascolator and it isn't the lowest part of the system.

Tomorrow is touch up paint on the fuselage and wings (they got a little beat up, nothing major) as well as an inspection - out to the airfield this week! Gotta cut the cowl, too, which is going to be one of those "hold your breath" moments.

[Sam Buchanan]

You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add,
but when you have nothing more to take away.
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Frank Giger]

I like the solution because it has a certain Rube Goldberg "why did you do that?" element to it.

[Sam Buchanan]

Well...guess I've never considered Mr. Goldberg as an icon of aircraft design.....except in those cartoons on the last page of the magazines...... ;)

Frank, the fuel system has caused more crashes during early flights than any other mechanical failure. Those of use who are EAA Tech Counselors are justifiably concerned when we see fuel system components/designs that are outside "normal".

Think very carefully before following Mr. Goldberg's lead. The last thing we want is somebody saying "why did you do that?".

Best wishes for a speedy and quality conclusion of your build.

[Frank Giger]

Actually it is simpler.

I'm just keeping the gascolator there instead of just a drain cock.

The actual fuel line will be like yours.

[Frank Giger]

So I spent a very wet day (CAVU, but I was drenched! ) re-configuring the fuel system while also inspecting and cleaning up the wings in prep for Friday's move out to the airport.


Naturally I'm deferring to wiser heads, and now the fuel line has a filter and goes to the pump from there. There's now a line from the sump as well.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel004.jpg


It's hard to get a good picture, but the fuel exits to the left and slightly higher than the sump drain.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel005.jpg


Here's from the engine side of the firewall. I ditched the gascolator and just put on the drain thingie from it. Now I'll be testing the sump before each pre-flight.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/fuel006.jpg

I'll put a little clamp on the sump line where it is near the battery box tomorrow. I'm just too hot to do it today.

:)

[Frank Giger]

Airplane is out in the hangar - the hour was too late and I was just too smoked from loading and unloading it in the Alabama heat that I didn't put her together. I'll do that this afternoon.

[Frank Giger]

What a grand adventure!

I headed out to the airfield at about 1600, only to drive straight into a massive thunderstorm - and me with the vertical stab in the bed of the truck. Oh well, that's why there's drain holes!

I had told the wife that it would be about four hours in assembly, and I'd be home around 2100. It's now 0045 and a whole new day!

I had brought all the tools needed, except one....and it wasn't needed until the end, and I started with the vertical stab. Somehow my labels for which one goes where had faded or rubbed off, so I got to play the "nope, this goes on the other side" game for far too long. Putting the rudder on was simplicity itself, though, so I guess that was the reward.

The upper wing went together in a snap - sure is nice to work with level surfaces - and I threw some ropes over the roof beams and hoisted it up from the saw horses I put it on to get it started. Up, up she went, first one side, then another, and the plane slid under it smoothly. One of the sawhorses went under the tail wheel.

Much fussing with the bolts for the front cabanes. Thank goodness for my telescoping magnet thingie - if not for it the upper wing would definately rattle with a collection of wayward nuts and bolts. I actually had to take a break to cool down both figuratively and literally.

But they went in with a minumum of profanity, and the wing settled down into the rear cabane with the gentlest of persuasion with a rubber mallet. Bolts in!

And then I was in interplane strut hell. The right one simply did not want to line up with the holes, even after my little trick of rotating the compression strut slightly to get a better angle at it. I gave it a rest and put the left one on - which naturally gave no problems. After a short break, I gave that bit of aeroplane some color commentary and it got the message.

Lower wings were sort of fussy, but nothing compared to some of the laugh olympics shenanigans they've provided in the past.

Wires went on okay, but I had left behind my little screwdriver with a shaft that fits the turn buckles perfectly. I used a rivet that was in my tool bag, but there's two on each side that need more tightening. I'll get to them next time.

One of my aileron push rod holes is about 3/8 an inch too far back and it's scrubbing. The other is just fine. But I'll have to perform some minor surgery on that.

And go around making sure I didn't miss putting a nut on something somewhere.

But she sure looks happy in that hangar (which I'll describe with pics next time, as I didn't bring my camera, and it certainly has character).

[pittsdriver3]

Frank, When I do any major assembly I get several of my friends to look everything over very closely. It is amazing how many things you can miss. Don

[Frank Giger]

Oh, that's one of the perks being an EAA member - I've got a good group of guys to give her a close look over. Bonus - we're all cordial and on good terms, but not quite friends; they won't have any worries about offending me by way of criticism.

:)

[Frank Giger]

I brought the camera along yesterday to take some pictures of build progress, but didn't take any relating to it! Just too busy working when that got started. Before that, though, I grabbed some pics of my new digs.

Hey, is that...is that a hangar? I wonder what's inside?

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/hangar001.jpg

Oh, lovely! What a neat little aeroplane!

One's first hangar is a bit like one's first apartment, I guess. I had asked for - and gotten - the least desirable one on the field in order to negotiate for the lowest price. This one has a nasty tendency to let water into it under the door for the first three feet of the hangar due to run off.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/hangar002.jpg

Like all first apartments, it came with obnoxious roommates.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/hangar003.jpg

I found we were incompatible after discovering she was far too goth for my liking and had to get rid of her. Plus it turns out she had a sister hiding inside an old cinder block on the floor in the corner.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/hangar004.jpg

Plus she had some friends that stayed from time to time that just left dirt in piles or long streams on the shelves and walls.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/hangar005.jpg

Each airport has its own flavor, and Talledega is no exception. When assembling the aircraft I worked until after dark. Around seven or eight somebody started up their hot rod and just revved and revved the engine. Annoying. Then their buddy joined in. What the f... Then a loud speaker started warbling and the National Anthem kicked up. Stopping work, I stood facing the music, only to put together that it's Talledega, and that's the short track races.

Leaving the airport at around 2300, I found the main access road had a chained gate blocking it off. Trapped like a rat! After many sighs and some color commentary, I correctly guessed that there was an escape route through the industrial park that is adjoined to the airport.

On the plus side, I struck up a conversation with the A&P's in the maintenance hangar across from mine and it's already proven to be a mutually beneficial friendship. He needed some help moving a metal shear and I was more than happy to strain and lift. I had ran out of AN4 washers and he let me wander around the hangar collecting strays from the cracks in the floor and from under shelves.

Anyhow, on to the airplane. She's all assembled and I had our resident EAA guru and tech counselor come out to give her a once-over and help with getting the wiring started. Rusty did a little frowning and some smiles, but mostly approving nods. He wants to put a third swag in the center of my cable joins...I'm not too thrilled with that, as I'm afraid that it will goof up the ones on the end. But I remember Robert saying one could do that.

Overall he was satisfied with my workmanship, which is reassuring. He even found a couple of my solutions to be praiseworthy.

Anyhow, we dug into wiring, with me being helper man to his expert. None of it is rocket surgery, but the execution of crimping and connection has to be done right. He's a master and has the right tools for it, so I'd be a fool not to defer to his judgement and skills.

Rusty also has this neat circle cutting tool, so the cowling now has a proper hole in the center. He held it in place and I measured back to see how far the extension needs to go. Rusty says it's kind of a shame to cut nearly two thirds of it away!

[Frank Giger]

Great big milestone today. Our EAA tech advisor and super guru came out to show me how to put together the wiring, as he had worked up the bus bar for the fuse box:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wire003.jpg

I think it's a work of art.

We run all the wires and flip the master switch to see...

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wire004.jpg

Volt meter shows the juice, and the oil temp and pressure wiggled slightly up from the peg.

A quick bump of the starter button and the selenoid kicked in.

Lots of work to do - I've got to dress up the wiring back from the firewall (it's hot and I wouldn't begin to ask Rusty to stick around for that!) and there's still a zillion friggin' things to do on the rest of the plane.

But here's a scary thought: If I mounted the prop and stuck gas in the tank she'd fly.

Sure, the turnbuckles aren't safety wired, the clevis pins holding them on don't have any cotter pins to hold them in, and the wiring to the panel is a hanging mess, but she could fly.

Bonus plan: one of my other EAA brothers showed up and, having a little time to spare, took me around the patch in his Cessna 150! Just too much fun! He let me move the flying stuff around, which was just a joy. First time every using a yoke.

Of course it's a super fancy airplane with flaps and trim and mixture and even ashtrays on the door, but I've never been a reverse snob.


;)

[jdanneel]

good looking gauges !

[Frank Giger]

They do look pretty, don't they?

When I cut the panel I put those tabs or ears or whatever down on each end because I though it looked good. When we sat down to plan the wiring, I realized I didn't have a voltmeter! A quick order on Amazon and it came....with me thinking it just might fit in that lower bit I put down. Pure, absolute luck that the space was darned near perfect for fitting it.

All the wiring got cleaned up and zip tied to where it's not in the way of anything today, and along with a bunch of other minor tasks I started marking the cowling for where to drill for the transition piece that goes back to the fuselage.

I was getting pretty hot and fussy - not a good combination for precision work - so I called it a day and went home before I messed anything up.

[pittsdriver3]

Use a flush side cutter to cut all the zip tie ends with. I learned the hard way when I used a regular pair of dykes on my RV7. Any time I had to get anywhere there was wiring my hands and arms looked like a wildcat had attacked me. Finally used a razor blade to cut them flush. Don

[Frank Giger]

Because the sides of the airplane are open from panel to firewall, I could both put the wiring well out of the way of everything and get to the zip tie ends easily to cut them. I actually used my little pocket knife for them.

[Frank Giger]

Just to keep the thread alive, Mom came to visit en route from Germany to Washington State and gave her approval of the plane.


http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/mom_plane.jpg

I was looking at the pictures and it seemed the left lower wing had reverse washout - the roundel shouldn't be showing like that. So yesterday afternoon I went out to the airport to put in the ground wire on the tach and start on the "check every bolt" process (I plan on repeating it a bunch of times).

Turns out that when I assembled the aircraft I didn't put any nuts on the bolts that hold the interplane struts onto the lower wing! After a rueful "well, that ain't good," nuts were installed and tightened after loosening the landing wires. Wires back to proper tension and the wing has the required 1.5 degree washout. Much rejoicing in the hangar - I spent a LOT of time getting the rigging right, and did not want to have to attempt a do-over.

I need to bring some gas up to the airport as well. It dawned on me there is absolutely no reason I shouldn't put a gallon or so in the tank to make sure there's no leaks in the system and fire up the engine briefly. I must say that when I plunged the starter button to the bottom and turned it over it gave me quite a thrill. First gasps for breath from my Bebe.

I also need to purchase a good fire extinguisher for the hangar as well.

[jdanneel]

Make sure you are allowed to run the engine without the counterweight of a prop.
greetings

[Frank Giger]

I'm afraid to sound really stupid, but what do you mean?

[jdanneel]

My wording is a bit off, it should have said "flywheel " iso counterweight, an engine needs this too "smoothen the 4-strokes, when converting a car engine the mass of the standard fitted flywheel at the end of the crankshaft is often removed to save on weight because it is replaced by the weight of the prop, so if you want to run the engine without prop maybe ask Valley if that's ok.
Greetings

[Frank Giger]

Ah, now I understand.

The flywheel was definitely left on, and the Diehl case on the back hooks the flywheel to the generator and the starter. Because there's no prop, though, I'll have to limit the amount of time I run it as there's no active air going over the engine to cool it.

[Frank Giger]

Shameless bump - with Mom for a visit, no real work got done on the plane. Planning on heading up tomorrow to work on the cowl and the static/pitot system.

And, as a reward for clicking on this thread...

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/71/7179/UACU100Z/posters/wings-clara-bow-1927.jpg

[jdanneel]

That is all I needed this Saturday morning



Shameless bump - with Mom for a visit, no real work got done on the plane. Planning on heading up tomorrow to work on the cowl and the static/pitot system.

And, as a reward for clicking on this thread...

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/71/7179/UACU100Z/posters/wings-clara-bow-1927.jpg

[Frank Giger]

Quite a number of things irritating me at the hanger!

First, I brought some fuel and a very nice, large fire extinguisher with me. Pell City has a gas station that sells ethanol free High Test, so I put five gallons in a nice metal fuel can and brought it out with me.

The good news - two gallons in and no leaks in any of my fuel connections, and the drain from the sump was clean!

The bad news - my float rod is too long on my cap. I figured out that though I didn't mean to, I put it down into the sump area. Easy fix.

The other bad news is that one of several things is going on with my battery. Either:

A) I never brought it to a full charge, and hopefully the "reconditioning" feature of my charger and time spent getting some fresh electrons will fix it.
B) It's a bad battery (even though it's new).
C) It's just not enough battery. On Valley's advice I grabbed a series seven motorcycle battery, one advertising great cranking amps.
D) I've got a sneak circuit somewhere grounding the battery in the wrong way.

Flip the master, let the pump run some to build up fuel pressure, and press start. The engine turns over twice and then it's click-click-click. My little battery charger would run some and when I got decent voltage I'd try again with the same result.

Tantalizing and frustrating in the extreme is that the engine caught but didn't start - one more turn, dammit!

I'll bring starter cables next time and just jump the damned thing off from my truck if the battery isn't in good enough form. I need to hear the engine run!

I'm struggling with the cowl.

Yesterday I put in one side of the strip that connects the bowl with the sheeting that hooks to the fuselage.

My first attempt was a friggin' disaster! I had started the strip too far down into the bowl, and though I thought I was straight the piece wound up in a sort of angle, coming up to where the far end was about a 35 degree angle to the bowl!

So all the rivets get drilled out and I tried again. First I rolled the transition piece to let it lay inside the curve of the bowl (I didn't do that at first), and tacked the first rivet in on one side, lined it up evenly at one inch depth rather than the two I had before, clamped the end, and put a rivet there to hold it.

Then I started around using the line of rivet holes (about three inches apart) furthest from the edge, keeping the measure marks on the edge. Much, much better.

The upper row (closest to the edge) went in okay, but I still wound up with some minor buckling between some of the rivets. I'm beginning to suspect the bowl itself is flared outward at the edge slightly (and it's a little beat up from the last three years of being moved around). I may just apply a little rubber mallet to them to see if I can get some relief.

The next problem is that I need 14 inches from the edge of the bowl to the fuselage. My sheeting is 12 inches. I've the idea of running a two inch strip between bowl and sheeting (my transition strip is six inches wide) to fill the gap. If I can't make it work I guess I'll just bite the bullet and buy sheeting.

Any thoughts?

[pittsdriver3]

Buy the correct width sheeting and find a sheet metal roller and roll it to the right diameter before you start drilling holes. Go over your wiring and make sure you don't have some kind of dead short. Test the battery with a load tester. I had one on my car that would show 13 volts on a meter but when load tested failed in a couple seconds. Let it sit for a couple minutes and would show 13 volts again and fail the load test. Don

[Frank Giger]

Of all the dippy....

So I spent a couple hours checking all the cables three or four times without any love. Finally I just threw up my hands and went to the parts store and bought a new battery, figuring that it was the only thing that could be screwing things up.

Thirty minutes and a hundred bucks later the new series 12 motorcycle battery was installed.

She cranked on the first turn!

A couple issues came up immediately:

First a minor leak at one of the fittings to the oil cooler - easy fix.
Second, none of my gauges - excepting my volt meter - are working. I'll start trouble shooting them some other time, as I'm whipped from bending into the airplane and getting frustrated.

The oil temp and pressure gauges wiggle when the master is first turned on, but I think they're not getting enough juice. We daisy chained the power connector to connector, with the first stop being the volt meter.

I'm going to move the incoming hot line to other gauges to see if that's the issue. Otherwise I'll beg Rusty (who helped run the wiring) to come out and ungefuch the system.

[Frank Giger]

Turns out the ground to my gauges isn't doing its job! Somewhat sorted out, but I need to re-do them.

Ran the tubing for the pitot tube through the lower wing using a wire snake for drains. The hole in the back of my altimeter isn't threaded, though, so I'll have to come up with something to put the static line into it.

One of my fuel fittings was weeping a little, so I tightened it up (it was a little loose!).

And brought home the new battery so I can build a box for it.

[planecrazzzy]

Something I never heard you mention was Amp Hour ( AH ) when you talk about your Battery...

Mine... Needs minimum 18ah ....

I look for "SIZE" from that point...

What's the ah on your new battery ?
.
Gotta Fly...
JAM

[Frank Giger]

Not a clue...I'll have to check.

I just went with a battery that Valley Engineering recommended and then went up one.

[Frank Giger]

No pictures - I keep forgetting to put the camera in the truck - but lots of education to go with my recreation on the build, and I figured I'd fill y'all in.

My problem with gauges was the ground - they just weren't getting a good one. So I daisy chained it like we did the "hot" from the battery and now they all work, excepting the tach. Consensus is that the darned gauge is faulty, not the wiring. Or, on a slim possibility, I may have let the smoke out of it somehow. Valley Engineering says to send it back to them and they'll replace it (it is part of the Firewall Forward package, and so I can't send it back to VDO).

On Valley Engineering: They make a fine engine, gorgeous props (in their in-house subsidiary, Culver Props), but the documentation provided is limited to the tags they hang from the sensors. They make up for this by answering the phone and if the answer to a question isn't immediately available, they'll call one back with it in short order. I'm going to have to invest in some books on VW engines.*

This lead to some engine hilarity. The minor stuff I could suss out on my own - tightening oil line connections to the cooler, for example, but when I cranked the engine for the first time with working gauges the oil pressure shot straight up to 60 psi and stayed there. Your garden variety VW engine should be running about 25 psi oil pressure on start, so I shut it down immediately and said many, many bad things. It could be one of two things: a stuck oil pressure relief valve or the installation of a high pressure oil pump.

It's the latter, which makes sense. So it's working as it should.

I ran the pitot tube tube (:)) through the wing after several attempts. First I went for the wet noodle approach of pushing just the tubing up along the inside of the wing. That went as well as one can imagine. Then I took some excess wire left over from rigging and tried to run that through. Slightly better than the noodle approach with the tubing, but it didn't work either. So I put the wire inside the tubing to keep it from hanging on the drag/anti-drag wires and the ribs. That managed to make the inside of the tubing a little cruddy looking, but didn't work either. Then I got a small drain unclogger wire, taped the end up to keep it from cutting the fabric or hanging, and ran it through. Hit it the first time, taped the end of the tubing to it, and dragged it through.

Now, then, the back of your typical ASI and altimeter has threaded holes. My altimeter does not. So I had to come up with a plug to fit into it securely. I'm tying the static ports of both together with a T that goes to filter. In the course of fitting them I learned that once a fitting goes into tubing it's really not coming back out. I broke the T fitting attempting it. Oh, well, that's why I bought two. Enough bad words said over that to where it's bumped down on the sh!t-to-do list.

And so begins the saga of the cowling.

The cowl provided with the kit is a spun bowl of aluminum. It's very pretty but has some unique problems with it. I didn't realize just how soft it was and it's a little beaten from moving and storage, but nothing serious. I'm going to blame that on the fact that the top of the bowl isn't quite 90 degrees to the flat. It's flared a bit. But we'll come around back to that.

With the center hole enlarged and fit onto the engine, we measured back from the seam to find that I need about 14" back from it to make it to the fuselage (being a bit generous; one can trim excess off a lot better than add to it). I have quite a bit of 12" wide 6161T6 sheeting that was intended for leading edge material unused from when I opted to buy some T3 aluminum for that instead. My plan, which I'm sticking to, is to run a 2" strip over the transition pieces from the cowl bowl and then put the 12" stuff on from it.

But first I have to put on the transition pieces that lay under the bowl, the strip, and the sheet. My first attempt saw me putting the piece too far down into the bowl, which forced a sort of bowing effect. When I got towards the end of the piece it was sticking above the end of the bowl. Sigh. Well, I may not be good at a lot of things, but I can drill out a pop rivet like a pro, thanks to much practice. Out it went. I grabbed another piece, backed up a bunch towards the edge of the bowl, and went at it again. It worked, but there was some buckling between rivets. Bah!

Ah, I need to pre-roll the sheeting. Done. That seems to work much better, but there's some slight bowing of the sheeting. It doesn't make sense. That's when I took a big step back and noticed the joined sheeting flared outwards. It's only in the bowl by just over an inch, so it's not picking up the curve. The bowl itself is flared. I cut my joining sheets down to about a foot long and ran them around. Now when I run the 2" band around I can pull it in slightly to give me a nice transition and correct for it.

That's where I left it yesterday, ready for the 2" band. I have to get a better set of snips to get a really clean edge on my strips (oh, but for a metal shearing machine!), and a little time for my aching back to recover from bending over a cowl for four hours.

* About a zillion years ago I owned a VW Bug with serious mechanical issues, so I know how to do most basic stuff on VW engines as well as some troubleshooting. But I need lots of refresher training.

[bookmaker]

Frank, if you take your aluminum to a local air conditioning shop they will probably cut you some very clean 2" strips. Most shops have 8 foot shears.

Dale

[Blue Chips]

Frank,
Your probably pretty sick of buying new tools at this point but if you have a Harbor Freight close by these pistol grip air shears do pretty well, I have a set and they cut through the aluminum sheet easily.

http://www.harborfreight.com/pistol-grip-air-shears-98580.html

[Frank Giger]

I just need to go slow with some decent hand shears (which I bought). My skill with an electric cutter isn't good enough for a precise edge; my cuts with it look like I've been drinking. Then again, I haven't ever made a jig to ensure a straight cut with it, either.

I'll give it a try and if it doesn't work out do what Dale suggested - show up to a shop with some aluminum and beg for help.

[Kyle Boatright]

I just need to go slow with some decent hand shears (which I bought). My skill with an electric cutter isn't good enough for a precise edge; my cuts with it look like I've been drinking. Then again, I haven't ever made a jig to ensure a straight cut with it, either.

If you have a decent straight edge, you can clamp that to the aluminum as a fence and do your trimming with a router.

[Frank Giger]

Okay, so some pics of the cowl, but there's only a few as I didn't take a lot of photographs.

Here's attempts one through three, but at an early (promising) stage:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl001.jpg

The idea was to put some sheet inside the bowl and then run a two inch strip over it flush with the bowl. Then the 12" wide strip would go flush with that.

Initially it looked pretty good, but soon devolved into a bunched up mess. The problem is the bowl isn't flat at the edges, but rolls outwards. I guess I could have invested in a shrinker and spent days finding just the right amount around the edge, but my patience for that has ended.
Robert Baslee's suggestion was "well, some people run the sheeting over the outside of the cowl bowl," (:D) and then he paused and said "that's what I usually do."

So that's what I did.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl002.jpg

Now, then, I had kind of an idea that putting the short band in the center was not the smartest way to do things...mostly because it was my first thought on how to do it, and that's usually the least efficient and effective way.

If I put the extension on the back side, the overlap and stiffening from it will be by where it mounts to the aircraft, rather than having all that overlap at the bowl.

I could also put a little more than 2" on the end in case I measured wrong and needed more than 14" from the edge of the bowl.

So that's what I did, and it turned out okay. Not great, but acceptable.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl004.jpg

I've got a bunch more rivets to put in to tighten it up before mounting it to the aircraft and making lines for the horseshoe cut.

In doing a trial fit to the aircraft the cowl did a half gainer off the nose and put a couple minor dents in it, so some rubber mallet magic is in order.

I'm thinking of putting a peg on the top center of the fuselage and a hole to match into the cowl to help align it when mounting. And run some car door edging on the back side to keep the scratching down after I paint it.

[Frank Giger]

To get the cut lines from the opening in the bowl to the bottom of the cowl cheeks:

1) Check level of fuselage (what are the odds? Dead on the money!).
2) Mount the cowl.
3) Use the level to make sure I'm cutting both sides in the same place.
4) Run some painter's tape from that point to the bottom of the cheeks.

Now, then, how to ensure that the angle of the tape is the same from cheek to points at the front of the bowl? Use the patented Angle-O-Matic, a bit of sheeting marked using the tape on one side, with the join at the sheeting and bowl as a straight reference.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl005.jpg

Flip it over on the other side for a check. Turns out my eyeball was pretty much on the money.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl006.jpg

Deep breath and cut.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl007.jpg

On the front of the bowl, I got the transition wrong a bit, working off of memory. So it's not quite the hard horseshoe of a Nieuport 11.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl008.jpg

But it clears the exhausts and gives the prop the room it needs.

Some minor cleaning up to do, quick fasteners to put in, painting, etc., but it's pretty much done.

To ensure that I got the clearance right, I stuck the prop on (nuts started just to the nylon). Or, possibly, because I really, really wanted to see my plane with a cowl and a prop.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl009.jpg

[Frank Giger]

Going out to the airport later today to start mapping out the baffling. Should be an adventure!

[Frank Giger]

Here's some closer shots of that prop:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prop004.jpg

With the setting sun on it, she looks lighter (but the details stand out better).

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/prop002.jpg

On to work, though. Mucking about with poster board, I got most of the left side of the baffling:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle001.jpg

There's some unused bolt holes to secure it with - one in the front and two on the block left and right of the fuel/air intakes. There's to be a bend at the back for the firewall, naturally.

I'm not sure how to block off between the Diehl case and the firewall, though. One thing at a time, I reckon.

And because I simply couldn't resist: first slow taxi today. Oooh, the smallest advance of throttle and she wants to GO!

[Frank Giger]

After getting frustrated with figuring out the engine baffling, I treated myself to a rainy day start of the aircraft and a test of the new GoPro the wife bought me as a surprise gift!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGoa1hHZnP0&feature=youtu.be

[Frank Giger]

Today was a big work day, though there isn't much to show for it at the end.

First, Camlocks are in on the cowl:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl010.jpg

A few little notes are in order. That's aluminum tape around the back edge to cover the rivet holes from when there was an extension and to help prevent scratching the cabanes and cheeks when putting it on. It'll be invisible after painting.

Then on to baffling!

I've worked out two thirds of the baffling, namely the left and right sides of it, using poster board. Time to put some of that cutting to the test with some sheet metal:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle003.jpg

I freely stole from the KC Dawn Patrol page on the subject, modifying to suit.

There's a bolt hole on the far left (as you look at it) that will secure it at that point. It's intentionally wide so I can trim to fit the cowl to it for a good seal.

There will be a scoop of sorts that goes on the bottom of this down the cylinder like in the KCDP.

Here's a pic of the side:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle002.jpg

I did this in two sections because it was just sooooo much easier that way. There are two bolt holes on the engine case a little in from where the nuts are showing to either side of the intakes.

Where I'm dipped is how to seal up behind the engine. Maybe a three sided box around the engine mounts? Or just run strips of aluminum tape on the offsets.

Also note that I worked until the sun went down on this, so the photography isn't the best.

[bookmaker]

Looking really nice, Frank.

Dale

[FloridaJohn]

Where I'm dipped is how to seal up behind the engine. Maybe a three sided box around the engine mounts? Or just run strips of aluminum tape on the offsets.
On my C-152, the back of the baffle goes vertical up to the cowl (parallel to the firewall). There are a couple holes to let the hoses pass through, and a flexible seal at the top touching the cowl. Seems like that might work in your installation, too.

[Frank Giger]

So I drove on with the baffling, finishing up the left side, and started to figure out the rear part of it.

After a couple of hours of screwing around with construction paper,* I came up with this:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle004.jpg

It's a simple box that fits against the Diehl case and is inside all the hoses and wires.

Now it's just a matter of making into a two part metal box with a seam along the middle of the top - otherwise I'd never get it onto the engine.

* It took twice as long as it should have due to the lack of glitter-glue. Plus I did some other stuff, too.

[Frank Giger]

The box is taking shape in metal:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle005.jpg


:)

[Jim Hann]

Another bite of the elephant swallowed. Looking good Frank.

[Sam Buchanan]

Frank, how are you going to accommodate engine motion? Baffles usually have flexible seals so the engine can move without damaging the baffle or cowl.

Maybe I just can't see all the system in the photos.

[Frank Giger]

Sam, the baffles are more or less floating around the engine with some space.

Here's the finished box:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle006.jpg

The box is actually held in three places to the aircraft: The firewall and at the bottom of the sides that go into the horizontal baffling. There is some play where the front and sides of the box are at the engine, which I'll put some aluminum tape over to seal it better (and protect the wires from rubbing).

The horizontal cowling is attached at the front and sides to the engine and the firewall, but it's aluminum and can flex pretty well. And it doesn't actually touch the engine at the cylinders (but is pretty close).

One of the things that surprised me is how little that engine moves, even at higher RPM's. I suppose it comes down to being a small engine with a balanced prop.

Cowl's not quite done, but it's shaping up nicely. Gonna need some sanding and an additional coat:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl011.jpg

Oh, and I got the replacement tach from Valley Engineering and after figuring out the dip switch off/on diagram is reverse of what is on the gauge itself got it to work. I may never actually look at it in flight, but at least it'll be a working gauge I'm ignoring!

[Sam Buchanan]

The horizontal cowling is attached at the front and sides to the engine and the firewall, but it's aluminum and can flex pretty well. And it doesn't actually touch the engine at the cylinders (but is pretty close).

One of the things that surprised me is how little that engine moves, even at higher RPM's. I suppose it comes down to being a small engine with a balanced prop.

Frank, maybe I'm missing something but it appears to me per your description and photo that the baffle side is attached to both the engine and the firewall. That will crack. The engine may move only a small amount, but that will be enough to fatigue the aluminum. The baffle may be attached to either the engine or airframe, but not to both.

My apologies if I have misunderstood your baffle system.

[Frank Giger]

Hmmmm, lemme think about that.

Right now the horizontal baffle is bolted to the engine, and the box to the horizontal baffle.

I put in some sheet metal screws to the firewall at the back of the box and the horizontal baffle.

If I need to do one or the other, it's easy enough to remove the screws into the firewall - the box is solid without it, and the horizontal baffle is as well - I was just overbuilding.

I could put in another stiffening fin under the horizontal baffle (to keep with the whole idea of overbuilding) and then just put some tape along where it meets the firewall....it'll be cushioned against the cowl with some felt (as well as providing a seal). That would make it float with the engine, independent of the air frame.

Thanks, Sam, for educating me on baffling! This is precisely the reason I made this thread - so that smart folks like you can spot my errors and put me on the right path.

[pittsdriver3]

Frank, A good way of doing that would be to cut the horizontal baffle and the box so you have abbout a 1" gap between them and the firewall. Then just rivet some 2" wide silicone baffle seal to the baffles so it closes the gap. You can see how it looks on the baffle of the C-140 I just finished.

[Sam Buchanan]

Frank, here is a video that illustrates vibration being transmitted via the baffles:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pla43oLRZoo" data-cke-saved-href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pla43oLRZoo">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pla43oLRZoo

This video is selling a particular brand of baffle seal but it does show the reason why the engine and airframe must be isolated from each other. Baffle seal material is the standard method for isolating the baffles while retaining the very important air seal. Be sure you orient the seals so the high pressure on the upper half of the baffles forces the material to seal against the cowl rather than opening up a route for air to escape.

Take a close look at a certificated or well-designed experimental engine installation to see how the seals are designed. Pittsdriver3's photo is an excellent example.

[bookmaker]

Pretty impressive video.

Dale

[Frank Giger]

Did some adjusting on the baffling, cutting it back from the firewall and trimming a bit back from the cowl, as well as putting in a reinforcing strip on the horizontal pieces.

I'll put some flexible baffle sealing between it and the cowl, and then just use some aluminum tape on the back to the firewall.

I noticed that there's some sunshine where the cowl meets the fuselage, particularly around the ends of the engine mount. I think I'll just put some felt there.

[Frank Giger]

A couple pics of my, um, baffling solution.

As Sam pointed out to me, it can either be attached to the engine or to the airframe, but not both (unless I want to replace it due to cracking), so I opted to stick with keeping it attached to the engine.

A fin underneath gives it some stiffness, and it now floats free of the firewall.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle008.jpg

The hole with the oil lines was enclosed with aluminum tape.*

Here's the other side with tape along the end where it meets the firewall to seal it off, along with tape along the seams of the box around the Diehl case.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/baffle007.jpg

The white stripe is some stickum tape for the gap seal where it meets the cowl. That'll get a strip of aluminum over it and some rivets - I just wanted to see if it would fit and work.

* Yes, it's ugly. Yes, it's lazy to cover up my lack of metal working ability with tape. And yes, it should work, as it's industrial ducting tape rated for high temps.

I ran the engine to see how much it moves, and it moves quite a bit (well, it looked that way to me, but it's probably an eighth an inch at low idle) with the engine, but it moves with the engine, and the tape along the firewall and the gap seal when the cowl let it move a bit as well.

From the cockpit it doesn't feel any more vibration-y than before it was on.

[pittsdriver3]

Frank, That aluminum tape won't last long at all and you need to seal all the way around the sides and front where it contacts the cowl. Do yourself a favor and get some baffle seal material and do the job once. I also see that cable going to the carb. If that is the throttle cable or even the choke it needs more support. It should have a bracket a couple of inches from the arm with the outer cable clamped to the bracket. As it is now when the engine moves around the arm will move also, not good. Not picking on you, just want you to be safe. Don

[Frank Giger]

Thanks for your comments! That's why I post here - to get opinions, and I really appreciate them.

On the cowl - it actually does seal along the sides and the bit in the front steers it to the top. Remember I have an open cowl!

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/cowl011.jpg

The cowling actually hits the baffling forward of the first plug.

Where the cowl goes around the firewall, I'm going to put in some baffling material to ensure there's a seal there.

On tape - I did some idle tests to look at flex, and some slow taxi to see how it held up to being under the cowl and at higher revs. I think it'll be okay; time will tell and I may revisit it. This is an aircraft that will fly for about two hours at a time under gentle conditions (think ultralight - early mornings, late afternoons) under gentle flight profiles.

On the throttle cable - I've also had concerns, but the photos don't show a lot of scale. It's only four inches of cable out when at idle. The cable sheathing is held to the firewall with a mount - it just doesn't show in the picture.

Looking out for my safety isn't picking on me - it's something I hope everyone does.

[Frank Giger]

I did a test of the baffling using some slow taxi work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZugN9FSfaXQ

As always, there were a few little things I noticed that were fixed afterwards.

The baffling, however, stayed in place and didn't rub in a bad way against the cowl or anything.

[wyoranch]

Simply awesome! As a long time follower of this thread, I find myself getting excited for you. The airplane is just beautiful. Congrats!
Rick

[jdanneel]

THE big day is coming ....
are you sure that there was no high speed "taxi" allong the runway with the camera OFF ?

[Floatsflyer]

Frank, it's been almost 4 years and 1 month to the day.

"It's alive, it's alive!!!

Looking forward to seeing your creation sprout wings.

[planecrazzzy]

Way ta Go Frank.... Hmmm... Taxi done... Time for the Airworthiness inspection...
.
Gotta Fly...

PS Looking at some of those Cables "Bounce"... Are they too loose ?

[Jim Hann]

Looking good Frank!

[Frank Giger]

My list is getting shorter, and I need to start figuring in the admin stuff along with the physical final stuff.

[pittsdriver3]

Get the EAA package that has everything you need to apply for your AW. Contact the DAR soon to see exactly what he wants and what his schedule is like. Don

[Frank Giger]

Oh, that was purchased the same day I ordered the kit.

So today was a funny mixed bag with the airplane. Dave, my brother-in-law came out to check out the aircraft and lend a hand, which was pretty cool.

In the "of all the dippy s!&^" category:

When putting in the cotter pins I had to loosen the wires to move the clevis pins about. Before committing to putting on the safety wire, I walked about 20 feet in front of the aircraft and just looked at it.

She was out of rig. The lower left wing had negative washout at the end and the right upper wing the same. Huh? So I loosen everything back up and re-tighten in order. Still katywhompus.

My brother-in-law is looking at me with this "I dunno about your skills" look an I decide to try something unconventional on the hunch that something isn't seated right. I walked over to each of the wings, grabbed both spars at the end, and wagged the whole plane from them fairly aggressively.

Step back and it's dead on using the mark-one eyeball test. Whip out my measuring stick and the lower wings are dead on. Raise the tail, check level of the plane, and the upper wings are dead on.

I think when I was working cotter pins I moved the lift tangs off from straight lines (the wires were slack) and they were pulling in different directions, and wiggling the plane jerked them back into true.

In the "bad things happen to good people when they're really good things" category:

We were mucking about, talking about Weight and Balance, and decided to go ahead and weigh the plane.* I grabbed the right horizontal stab outside of the support strut, lifted, thought better of it, put it down, and lifted from the center to go on my little table.

After we put the tail down Dave looks back and says "you have a major problem." :eek:

The rivnut on the left front support strut for the horizontal stab had come clean out of there and the strut was hanging free from the fuselage end.

"Dave, it's not a major problem now," I said, "it's actually a very good thing if that rivnut was stripped in the hole sitting in the hangar." Easy fix; in fact I'll check the others and maybe replace them with rivnuts that have the little ears that get riveted.

* After weighing the plane I realized I had somewhere between one and three gallons of gas in the tank. It was a nice exercise in technique but completely worthless as a measurement.

[jdanneel]

Sounds like you had à mixed stress/fun weekend ....

you know I am very curious to hear about your finished N11 Weight ???

also looks like this blog is slowly coming to its end .... Good for Frank

thanks for the education and entertainement ;)

johan

[Sam Buchanan]

We were mucking about, talking about Weight and Balance, and decided to go ahead and weigh the plane.* I grabbed the right horizontal stab outside of the support strut, lifted, thought better of it, put it down, and lifted from the center to go on my little table.

After we put the tail down Dave looks back and says "you have a major problem." :eek:

The rivnut on the left front support strut for the horizontal stab had come clean out of there and the strut was hanging free from the fuselage end.

"Dave, it's not a major problem now," I said, "it's actually a very good thing if that rivnut was stripped in the hole sitting in the hangar." Easy fix; in fact I'll check the others and maybe replace them with rivnuts that have the little ears that get riveted.



Frank, you are using rivnuts to secure the horizontal stab support struts??!??? :eek:

Please rethink the attachment of those struts, they need AN bolts. These are probably the most flight critical fasteners on the plane.

By the way, Fokker N1918Q went to the aerodrome this weekend:

http://eaaforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5268&stc=1

[Frank Giger]

Simply gorgeous aircraft!

The rivnuts were pre-installed into the gussets for the horizontal stab supports by Robert as part of the kit.

[Frank Giger]

It's been an interesting couple of days with the airplane and the airport.It's weight and balance time, so I called Robert Baslee to ask what the CG range is, and what to expect for empty weight (knowing I'm probably heavy). Robert tells me to grab a pencil and write down a bunch of measurements besides the obvious firewall-to-mains and firewall-to-tailwheel; wing cords, wing span, etc., and tells me to send him the numbers as "it's kind of involved."Now, then, Robert has learned after all this time to use small words and simple language when talking to me, and I thought maybe he was underestimating my ability to do basic math. But hey, who am I to look a gift horse in the mouth? So it's off to the airport with plumb bob in hand. Do all the weighing (empty gas tank, plane in "flying" configuration), put a lot of tape on the floor with marks on them, and eventually go home.I say eventually as my little desert of an airport was actually populated. So lots of talking about airplanes and a new guy with a gorgeous RV-7 (I think it's a 7) is taking up residence.I had told the wife I'd be home about four, and she actually laughed at me - "See you around eight." In fact, I was done with everything about three, and with an hour drive I'd make it no problem. Then Mike from our EAA chapter shows up and says he's going to take his C150 up to check out a strip one of his friends is making. It was CAVU with winds at zero gusting to two, temps around 65 degrees. We all know I wasn't going to pass that up.Mike gave me the controls after we found the strip (it's dirt and we elected not to land) and I made it back to the airport. He landed the plane. The C150 is a weird plane. Not only is the third wheel on the wrong end, the stick was replaced with a split wheel kind of thing and the throttle is this weird rod sticking out of the dash. Plus it's super fancy with a trim wheel and flaps. Other than that it's a fine airplane and better than mine in one critical area - it's flying.Get home around eight (!) and dig around a bit on W&B for biplanes, and it turns out it's an involved affair. Evil, evil math, in fact.

[Frank Giger]

Apologies for the text; the forum won't let me put a space between paragraphs.

[Frank Giger]

So I'm hoping the collective brain trust here can explain a few things conceptually to me about MAC, centers of balance, and CG.

Robert is still going to do the W&B for me, but in the meantime I need to understand all this stuff - it's my butt in the seat, after all. Plus I hate not understanding this.

So I dug around and found the formulas and even a nifty tool to find the MAC for biplanes, and using my measurements low and behold mine is 25% of the cord of the main wing (which should be between 24 and 28%, so yea team!)

I get what the formulas are doing and I even understand the placement of the center of balance for the wings inherent in the design - one wants the Center of Balance of the wings (and the lift) over the Center of Gravity.

So I took my MAC placement and translated that to a point on my plane from the datum (my firewall). It's just over 19 inches back from my firewall.

I also, naturally, weighed the aircraft and worked up the CG (empty). I added the meat lump and fuel using the standard methods (fine living now has me at the FAA approved 170 pounds!).

Ten gallons of gas and pilot puts the CG at 22" behind the datum, or three inches behind the Center of Balance.

Playing with fuel loads and pilot weight only moves it about about an inch at the most. So it seems to me everything is pretty much in agreement and I'm okay.

The question is why do the MAC calculations at all? Is Robert just validating his design against my build, or is this standard for homebuilts?

[mcrae0104]

I think you may be confused about some terms (or are using them differently than they are typically used). MAC is a length, not a percentage. I do not know what you mean by "center of balance" if you are referring to something other than center of gravity. Your CG varies with different loading cases, and must be restricted to a forward limit and a rear limit to ensure proper stability. These limits are sometimes expressed as a percentage of MAC length (e.g. Fwd limit at 22% MAC, aft limit at 30% MAC). These points can also be expressed as distances from a datum point. The designer must specify the fwd and aft limits. (You can learn more about how to do this in the book "Airplane Performace, Stability and Control".) What Robert is probably doing is confirming that the fwd and aft limits for the design also apply to your aircraft, which may or may not conform to the dimensions of the design. I'm guessing that is why he asked you to supply him with some dimensions.

[Dana]

MAC is Mean Aerodynamic Chord, no way will it be 25% of the main (by which I presume you mean upper) wing chord. MAC is both a length (the average of the upper and lower wing chords accounting for areas) and a location (somewhere between the upper and the lower wing chords).

"Center of balance" is not a term normally used in aerodynamic calculations, and I have no idea what you mean by it. Normally, the center of gravity needs to be a bit forward of the wing(s)'s center of lift for the airplane to be stable.(actually it's the "neutral point" that the c.g. needs to be forward of as the center of lift moves with different AOAs but that's the general idea). But as mentioned in the post above the c.g. range is often given as a range of MAC so I presume that's what your 24-28% is).

[Frank Giger]

I'm sure I'm gibbering-up the terms - this is why most folks who know airplanes start talking slowly and use small words on technical details!

Okay, so here's the "measurement thingie" that is Center of Balance, taken as a screenshot from Excel:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/Mac.jpg

I'm going to have to track down whomever put this together and bow down to them for making something so darned useful.

And here's the bog standard W&B spreadsheet:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wb.jpg

Someone want to help put some ridges in my smooth brain on this?

[jdanneel]

This is not taking into account THE GAP beween THE wings,I' send à Pm next week when I am home

[Dana]

OK, without seeing the underlying calculations, I'm guessing what you have is a spreadsheet intended to help R/C modelers find the desired "balance point" holding the plane with their fingers under the top wing, not something you want to use to determine the proper c.g. of a full scale plane. Most modelers just do a quick balance check of their models that way; if it balances on their fingers at 1/4 to 1/3 of the wing chord, good to go. But it's harder to figure where that point should be on a biplane with stagger, even moss so if the upper and lower areas aren't equal, hence the spreadsheet. The second one you posted helps you find where the c.g. IS, not where it SHOULD be.

The vertical gap between the wings is irrelevant.

[Frank Giger]

I used a biplane formula set, mostly to get an idea if I was going to be way off of CG with my weights. Still waiting on Robert for the definitive answer.

To show at least I did the W&B procedures right, fuel was drained and put into flying position:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB001.jpg

Leveled at the longeron by the cockpit.

Then it was a bunch of marks using a plumb bob:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB002.jpg

Moving on, the last big thing was mounting the pitot tube. I knew I wanted it on the interplane strut, so while the plane was in flying configuration I bent the tube itself to the angle to match it.

There were three things to consider in my choices:
1) It had to be stable.
2) It had to be simple.
3) It had to be something other than butt ugly.

Well, I've got plenty of 1/4" tubing left over and I did a test piece to see if I could make a mounting flange for the ends. It turned out pretty good.

First I annealed the ends and made two cuts:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pitot001.jpg

The challenge was to make the cuts to the sides just long enough to go flat without going short and getting a split or going long and having a cut past the flange. Sometimes it's best not to think about things too much and just do it....and in this case it worked out perfectly on both ends.

I made vertical cut that fit the pitot tube firmly, painted it, and ran the tubing up through it and into the pitot tube.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pitot002.jpg

Pull down snug and mount to the strut with a couple rivets.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/pitot003.jpg

It's solid to the strut and won't be going anywhere.

The ends of the mounting flanges can be bent down a tad to match the curve of the strut, but the hour was getting late and the temperature dropping.

I put an oscillating fan in front of the tube and the ASI jumped around nicely to show it's all connected properly.

I'll post my W&B measurements up later for anyone who wants to chew on them while I wait on the official CG range....

[Frank Giger]

The official word came back from Robert Baslee and....

...I'm ten pounds too light at the tail.

Well, that's better than the other way around! But I've got to figure out how to put some weight back there without doing major surgery. I've a few ideas, some of which aren't Wile E. Coyote in complexity.

[jdanneel]

Àdding 35lb to the pilot weight might have the same effect :)

[Floatsflyer]

...I'm ten pounds too light at the tail.

Well, that's better than the other way around! But I've got to figure out how to put some weight back there without doing major surgery. I've a few ideas, some of which aren't Wile E. Coyote in complexity.

You've opened up some delicious satirical replies. How about a tail hook? You could then do banner towing and practice carrier landings. :>;

[Dana]

I forget what you had for an engine and too lazy to search back... if you're hand propping a glider tow hook is useful weight...

[Frank Giger]

1915cc VW (85hp) direct drive.

Oh, and I have a starter....hand propping is "of the Devil" IMHO.

Pics tomorrow on my solution for the weight issue.

[edit]

On snarky comments, I've always been considered heavy in the head and light in the ass. Sort of the definition of a nerd!

:)

[Frank Giger]

Sooo....ten pounds to the tail. Well, let's plan some surgery:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB003.jpg

I already had an inspection hole there for getting to the nuts that hold the vertical stab to the fuselage.

So I built a box that rests on the lower longerons and has brackets going across front and back.

It was getting cold, dipping below 50 degrees, so I was going fast to keep warm...and didn't take photos of them.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB004.jpg

With the box in place (what a PITA) and the rivets taped over, I put the 12 weight sleeves into the box:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB005.jpg

Where did I get lead shot sealed into thick plastic bags of a convenient size that allow me to easily remove weight if I need to?

It's a secret.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB006.jpg

Box sealed up and a couple "drop tests" from knee high to see if it shifts (it didn't).

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB007.jpg

Ready for fabric repair.

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/WB008.jpg

A few notes:

The box is well clear of both the elevator control rod and the rudder cables.

I re-weighed the tail and she's put me in the CG limits, though at the forward end of them, which I'll take all day long.

[jdanneel]

Hi Frank,

in your CG calculation the position of the mains wheels is at 7.125in, this looks far back to me ?
if the front "leg" is vertical, then from what I make out of the plans this could be max 4 to 4.5in aft of firewall; which results in a CG calculation shift 2 inch more fwd ?

greetings

Johan

[bookmaker]

I can answer that. Since most of the AA planes are using VW engines, that are lighter than the original engines, the wings are swept back farther than original to move the center of lift, and therefore the C/G, back. Otherwise, a lot of nose weight would be required. Prior to the AA kits, the builders of the Graham Lee Nieuports found that moving the C/G back generated a little problem with ground handling, so many of the early builders of the Graham Lee planes moved the main wheels back closer to the C/G. Sweeping the front landing gear legs back. This helped with ground control. Robert's Nieuport plans (at least mine) show the forward leg being vertical, but the dimensions he gives for the legs result in sweeping the forward legs back to do the same thing.

Therefore, Frank's front landing gear legs are swept back, not vertical as was on the originals.

Now, in my case, I am building the full size AA N17 and since I am using the heavier Rotec R2800 radial, I have removed much of the added sweep in the wings and therefore repositioned the forward landing gear legs back to vertical. I have discussed this with Robert and others who have built Nieuports.

Dale

[Frank Giger]

Dale is exactly right; when I was at the HOP,* Robert suggested we deviate from the plans and bring the gear rearward in order to improve ground handling. It's a mod the KC Dawn Patrol guys all made on their planes with great improvement.

I naturally agreed whole heartedly that we do this; I want a plane that looks like a Nieuport 11 more than I want a Nieuport 11.

* HOP = "House of Pain," a euphemism for the builder's assist program Mr. Baslee puts on, immortalized by Dick Stark in his second book. Robert's shop is climate controlled in the most fundamental way - it's mostly controlled by the climate outdoors. In my case, it was a very warm summer where even the cat was walking around with its tongue out due to the heat. A couple of swamp fans helped, but one rarely found himself in front of them.

Work at the HOP is dictated by the builder - if one is slow not much gets done. Robert and Jim are there to assist and teach, not build one's plane for them. However, Robert doesn't dally about - this is a man that built the four Nieuport 17's for Flyboys from phone call and a blank sheet to airworthy in 60 days. He tends to get one moving quickly from task to task and encourages hustle.

I had the fuselage done and on gear as well as that tailfeathers mounted in four days at the HOP. If I had the means and the cash there is no doubt in my mind that I could have had a flying plane in less than a month with his oversight and help (assuming he would be available for that).

But even for an old soldier like me it was a test. Loads of bending over, repetitive motions, and having to use one's brain while doing repetitive motions. Every skill needed for the build is taught, from basic design to basic tool use to annealing and swagging cables. Worth every dime!

[Frank Giger]

Sigh and a big whew.

When I did the measurements, I didn't really do the upper wing offset, as Robert hadn't made it clear to me. So I came up with it using math to determine sides of a right triangle.

The problem is that the wing doesn't start at the firewall, but is well forward in the center. Instead of an eight inch offset for the upper wing, it's two inches! Recalculate and not only is no weight required to be added, doing so would put me out of the right range.

So pull all the weights out, patch the fabric, and frown at the seams that didn't need to be there in the first place.

The good news is that I did everything over for W&B from scratch and that was the only thing I had wrong. My weights were even the same, which I thought might be different for some reason. They shouldn't be, as I had the same level on the longeron at the cockpit.

[Dana]

I thought ten pounds in the tail seemed like an awful lot, but you sounded so sure...

[Frank Giger]

LOL, I always sound sure.

But that doesn't mean I won't always rely on empirical data over mathematical data whenever possible. So all the math is done and I figured I'd make it easy on myself and make the chart for the POH:

http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/CG_chart.jpg

The odd thing that might stick out is how much five pounds in pilot weight matter between 180 and 185. This is because the gas tank and the pilot dance around the CG; that's the tipping point where the pilot wins and offsets the weight of the fuel. I may make the one gallon cell on the 180 line yellow, as it's close.

But at the FAA approved 170 pounds (with clothes on), I'm okay to run out of fuel. Sure the engine will go into whisper mode, but hey, the CG will still be okay for my unscheduled landing!