New to Aviation, Starting a Homebuilt Project, I'm in need of prefessional opinions.

I'm an experianced automotive/Heavy duty Diesel Technician, familiar with almost anything mechanical. However I'm new to aviation and composite materials. And I would appreciate some direction from experianced aviation enthusist.

I'm looking for a small plans built plane that I can mostly build in my garage, with my son. So that needs to fit 2.

I've been looking into the Rand Robinson KR-2. It seems to meet my needs and it's specs are appealing to me.
Does anyone have experiance with this aircraft?
I like the idea of the Corvair engine, and low cost and it's fuel economony makes it affordable.

I'm considering constructing it from all composites using a PVC Divinycell foam core, fiberglass, and epoxy resin.
I've been trying to find recommended procedure for using the PVC foam core but havent found one. Anybody have experience here?
Should I be vacume bagging components?

A guy has been constructing one www.krsuper2.com. Can anyone tell me if his design and building techniques are legitiment?
I'd like to follow his direction. I like the modern version of the KR-2.

Any information about these is appreciated.

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Originally Posted by jasontuntland

A guy has been constructing one www.krsuper2.com. Can anyone tell me if his design and building techniques are legitiment?
I'd like to follow his direction. I like the modern version of the KR-2.

Any information about these is appreciated.

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You'd have to contact him......I'd say his mods are substantial enough that he should abandon any reference to KR-2. 33% gross wt increase is a serious change, not to be taken lightly (no pun intended, LOL).

There's tons of information on the internet. You can also check out Mark Langford's modified KR-2S with different airfoils and Corvair engine. I believe the plane was distroyed after the third crankshaft failure but his website is still running.

Otherwise, bulding the KR-2 is pretty straightforward. I think you'd like the building process, it's not difficult. Also consider while the final product will be okay as long as your son is small. He's gonna grow up and it's tough to cram two full size people in a KR. Ken Rand was a little guy. KR-2 builders have an annual gatherering....it's worth going to. Those guys have a great time.

I'm not very familiar with the KR-2, but I thought that it's a metal plane, no? If so and you want to do it in composites, you're designing an entirely new plane, however much it looks like a KR-2. As such, you need to have the skills to design and analyze the design.

The KR-1 and 2 are actually wood airplanes (spruce and plywood). But with foam and fiberglass to give the slick shape, otherwise not possible with just plywood. Some use molded parts. But the load bearing parts such as spars and other structure, is wood.

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Originally Posted by Dana

I'm not very familiar with the KR-2, but I thought that it's a metal plane, no?

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Nope. Wood with built up foam and glassfiber skin.

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I believe the plane was distroyed after the third crankshaft failure but his website is still running

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What was up with his choice of crankshafts that caused him to have three of them fail? Was it a quality control issue, the way the engines were being maintained, how they were being run?

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He's gonna grow up and it's tough to cram two full size people in a KR.

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That was going to be my other point about the KRs. I'm 5'9" and 165 lbs and it's an uneasy fit for someone my size when you have another person in there with you. It's a great little plane but it's not something you really want to have if you're intending on running any great distance with an adult sized passenger. One of my now deceased friends used to own one and he joked the only time he got intimate with his wife anymore (both being in their 60s) was when they would fly together.

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Originally Posted by martymayes

You'd have to contact him......I'd say his mods are substantial enough that he should abandon any reference to KR-2. 33% gross wt increase is a serious change, not to be taken lightly (no pun intended, LOL).

There's tons of information on the internet. You can also check out Mark Langford's modified KR-2S with different airfoils and Corvair engine. I believe the plane was distroyed after the third crankshaft failure but his website is still running.

Otherwise, bulding the KR-2 is pretty straightforward. I think you'd like the building process, it's not difficult. Also consider while the final product will be okay as long as your son is small. He's gonna grow up and it's tough to cram two full size people in a KR. Ken Rand was a little guy. KR-2 builders have an annual gatherering....it's worth going to. Those guys have a great time.

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You know, I had overlooked that weight factor. How did I do that.
I had come across this updated airfoil and planned on using it.
Can I easily aquire the wood nessary to build something like this? IE Lowes, or will i be freight shipping lumber from AircraftSpruce.com ?
I am 5'10 200lbs and my son is only 12 but I want It to be comfortable enough for long trips.
Any suggestions on simular aircraft that might be more spacious with simular stats?

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

What was up with his choice of crankshafts that caused him to have three of them fail? Was it a quality control issue, the way the engines were being maintained, how they were being run?

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Not all that uncommon in the converted auto powerplant arena. Bolt an unsupported extension with prop on the end of the crank and you get bending fatigue failures as the stock corvair crank was not designed for that type load. A popular corvair mod is a 5th bearing for extra support but I'm not convinced that is "the" solution.

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Originally Posted by jasontuntland

Any suggestions on simular aircraft that might be more spacious with simular stats?

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There's tons of two place airplanes, each has it's strength and weaknesses. You just have to study them all and find one that fits your needs. You may prefer one type of construction over another so that may influence your choice. Don't get overly concerned with some of the published performance numbers, particularly top speed. Many times these are not realistic.

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Bolt an unsupported extension with prop on the end of the crank and you get bending fatigue failures as the stock corvair crank was not designed for that type load.

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That's what I figured was going on but I have zero experience with converted engines and so I asked to be sure.

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A popular corvair mod is a 5th bearing for extra support but I'm not convinced that is "the" solution.

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Does it work to significantly reduce the rate of crankshaft failures? I'm a big believer in the KISS method when it comes to engines. That is, the less I have to do to it for it to work well with minimal problems, the better. Then again, that largely stems from anything firewall forward being a nebulous gray area to me.

Maybe someone at the EAA Museum would consider a display of cockpit mock-ups so that visitors to the museum could "try on" different aircraft designs? It would be a nice addition. It's possible too that a KR owner on the flight line might help with advice and a sizing. AirVenture is absolutely the best place to see a variety of designs.

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Originally Posted by prasmussen

Maybe someone at the EAA Museum would consider a display of cockpit mock-ups so that visitors to the museum could "try on" different aircraft designs? It would be a nice addition. It's possible too that a KR owner on the flight line might help with advice and a sizing. AirVenture is absolutely the best place to see a variety of designs.

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Isn't that what the North Exhibit area, just south of Warbirds is all about? All the kitbuilders showing their wares?

I suspect the real issue is that many of these vendors don't have the revenue to support showing their products at Airventure. It also probably why most of the older designs are acquired by Aircraft Spruce.

Well, not to whiz in your wheaties, but have you considered that the boy will be growing while you build the plane. You might want to take that in consideration- if I recall right (been awhile since I've looked it up) the KR weighs in the neighborhood of 500 lbs empty, with a gross weight of under a thousand. Toss in other considerations (such as the tendency to not being able to build as light as the designer, for example) and you may wind up with a plane that can seat 2 200 lb adults, but no fuel, etc!

BTW, took a quick look at the "super KR2" page. Specs look OK, but one line did catch my eye- "This page captures the design intent and the design analysis performed on the Super2. This aircraft is still under construction so has not been flight test, therefore all of the data supplied here is theoretical." Since they haven't actually flown yet, it's impossible to say whether or not it will meet your needs

There is a book titled Kitplane Construction by Ron Wanttaja (TAB Books) which is, I think, still in print. It spends the first 100 pages helping with the decisions about size, materials etc. and I found it very helpful. Lots of pictures for your kid too.

As a former health and safety guy I have to mention that maybe not enough time is spent on selecting a material for your project that you (and your family) will want to live with for the next few years. Shiny paint makes me shudder.

Best of luck, this will be an exciting time for you and your son.

If you are new to aviation I suggest you look at the Kit Planes magazine list of available kits. Also, take a trip with your boy to the Light Plane Exibition in Sebring, Sun & Fun in Lakeland, or Oshkosh to see what is available and talk to those kit suppliers who can answer your questions. Spend some time thinking about what your "mission" actually will be in terms of use. Don't pick a kit and then try to make it fit you. The expense in terms of money and time is too great to short yourself on the preliminary planning. Try to pick a kit that has firewall forward data for whatever engine you settle on.

Building is great fun. I wish my Dad had done something like that with me. There are many life lessons to be learned along with the mechanical skills.
Ralph
Building Murphy 611E

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Originally Posted by prasmussen

There is a book titled Kitplane Construction by Ron Wanttaja (TAB Books) which is, I think, still in print. It spends the first 100 pages helping with the decisions about size, materials etc. and I found it very helpful. Lots of pictures for your kid too.

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It's also available through many Public Libraries, too. Though making notes in the margins is frowned upon... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I was exactly in the situation you're in now. I did a ton of research and still made a bunch of mistakes that turned what could have been done in 18 months into a 7 year build. I even built a corvair for the plane, which turned out to be too heavy for W/B, despite what the aircraft designer published. I ended up using a C85-8 (good little engine). So, here's my two (or three) cents. Build a simple wood and fabric 2 seater, keep it VFR day. Use a simple, reliable aircraft engine. They're cheaper than you think and will give good service longer than most airframes will last. The reason I say wood and fabric is that until it's time to paint it's a nice smelling and non-toxic process, plus it's fast.

I agree with wood and fabric as easy and fast(er) than some types. I prefer ease of Oops with wood over a metal panel that cuts me while not being cut right. Many have had epoxy sensitivity that literally stopped the project of an all composite plane.
RE Smell: Actually even when covering/painting it isn't too bad if you go the Stewarts Route. http://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx
N202LH in the build.

Look at Fisher Flying Products.......

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I agree with wood and fabric as easy and fast(er) than some types. I prefer ease of

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That was part of my consideration as to why I originally went with wood and fabric wings on my LSA design. It's also much easier to convince my father-in-law to let me cut and shape wood than it is to go "Hey, do you mind if I weld in your garage?"

"Building is great fun. I wish my Dad had done something like that with me. There are many life lessons to be learned along with the mechanical skills.
Ralph
Building Murphy 611E "
Exactly!

Good points, I've been considering options. Now that my wife has gotten involved and anticipate my son to be a teenager before completion, I've been looking at options to comfortably fit us all. I've been looking at the RV10, Pulsar KIS Cruiser, Express, Pro-Composites Freedom, and a few others.

I'm still favoring Composite construction, Im not crazy about the Fabric covered vehicles, although it may be quicker, speed isn't my priority.
What I'm reading about Last-a-foam is making me question its safty. Now Im confident in the safer, and more expensive alternative (but lighter) Divinycell PVC Foam. Although I am curious about how it is to work with.

RV10 is an awesome craft but I dont like the initial investment cost, and all the riviting of the sheet metal. To finance that, I might as well buy a cessna. And that's not what I'm trying to accomplish

What I really want a "plans built" craft. thats the reason I am favoring the "Freedom" by Pro-Composites It fits my requirments and has room to grow.
http://pro-composites.com/FreedomProject/index.htm
Unfortunally none have flown yet. So it's again, unknown territory. But It's the only one I can find.

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Originally Posted by jasontuntland

Good points, I've been considering options. Now that my wife has gotten involved and anticipate my son to be a teenager before completion, I've been looking at options to comfortably fit us all. I've been looking at the RV10, Pulsar KIS Cruiser, Express, Pro-Composites Freedom, and a few others.

RV10 is an awesome craft but I dont like the initial investment cost, and all the riviting of the sheet metal. To finance that, I might as well buy a cessna. And that's not what I'm trying to accomplish

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There is no comparison between an RV-10 and a Cessna, other than the build time. You can build a RV-10 significantly less than the cost of a new Cessna. The RV-10 has more room and better performance that most of the Cessna models as well. There are plenty available that are already built, but thay will bring up other issues and concerns.

You may want to take a look at the RV-14 if all you really need is two seats. The construction will be much simpllier and quicker than the previous RV models. The first kit will be available in the fall.

bob

Bob, first of all, very nice work on your RV-10. Superb! I envy.
I'm not trying to make a comparison between the aircraft, just stating that the initial investment is so much it would be difficult to swallow. 50k minus engine and avionics.ouch. I could buy something older and used and get in the air real fast for that money. It would be a inferior vechicle, sure.
I do really need a 4 place though, With what I have planned for it.

I learned very quickly that being frugal wasn't always the best option and made some sacrifices to being able to build the RV.. I had a Cherokee 180 and my wife flew in it one time. She complained about it being too cramped and inadequate air flow. She refused to fly again in the Cherokee after that first trip. After taking her up in a friends RV-10, she loves it. she is now actively planning flying trips once we are out of phase 1. Fortunately, I paid for it over a six year period. Everyone has different priorities, but mine were pretty clear. Tighten the belt and figure out how to get it paid for.