Where is UL growing?

[jedi]

This sounds like it was a great club for someone wanting to learn to fly a glider. It's terrific that it made learning to fly a glider a social experience and accessible and affordable to an 18 yr old.

As for ultralight clubs that own ultralights and provide instruction to non-pilots, I have never personally heard of one.

I believe they've never existed because these clubs were virtually impossible under the old ultralight dual exemption. However, if a SSTM can be restored, it would make these clubs more possible in the ultralight community.

A main barrier to these clubs in the ultralight community previously was the lack of instructor liability insurance available for ultralights.

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Buzz.

You are in a position to start just such a club. Insurance for the instructor should not be an issue as the instructor has no authority to instruct other than his agreeing to help others and the others willingness to accept his assistance. The fact that the instructor is not licenced or certificitated to teach does a lot to remove him from being liable (my opinion and I am not a lawyer). He should not hold himself out as any kind of expert, only that he has flown before. I needs to be clear, and in writing, that the student alone is responsable for his safety.

You have proposed a workable system here. It is time to put it into action. I think you have a good chance to succeed and demonstrate how well the system can work.

This is what the industry needs and you are in a unique position to demonstrate it. Make a list and post here what additional materials or ideas you need to put your plan into action.

[jedi]

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I believe they've never existed because these clubs were virtually impossible under the old ultralight dual exemption. However, if a SSTM can be restored, it would make these clubs more possible in the ultralight community.

When the exemption was available it was an alternative to the SSTM but did not prohibit if. The SSTM was and still is a viable training method. It does not need to be restrored, it needs to be implemented. That is the point of my previous post. The time has come to do it. You must determine if you have the desire and ability. Others can provide encouragement and assistance.

I think the primary reason this was not common in prior years is because the equipment owner was not comfortable allowing the club like access to his equipment. The club should probably be a non profit and the equipment purchased by or donated to the club. The club need not make a up front payment for the equipment, it may enter a purchase agreement to make payments as membership grows and useage continues.

jedi

[jedi]

Duplicate post deleted.

[Dana]

...The club need not make a up front payment for the equipment, it may enter a purchase agreement to make payments as membership grows and useage continues.

Problem is, if a student damages the aircraft and the club doesn't have the funds to repair it, how will membership grow with no aircraft?

Re instructional liability, even if the instructor is on the ground he is still likely to be sued if a student is hurt or killed. All the lawyer has to do is to claim that the instructor sent the student up when the instructor knew the student wasn't ready, and the student didn't know any better, trusting the instructor... the jury is horrified...

In theory, a SP CFI can get a LODA for primary ultralight instruction in an experimental (ELSA or E-AB), and it does not have to be a prior "ultralight trainer" as was required during the transition. There have been very few LODAs issued, though... One hurdle is that the instructor has to submit a complete training syllabus to the FAA, which is a lot of work to create. I'm surprised that USUA or ASC hasn't jumped on this, and dusted off their old BFI training materials to sell to instructors. But if this could be done, a club with a 2-seater and one or more single seaters could be viable.

[Buzz]

I found a free download for Quicksilver MX simulation here for X-Plane.

http://www.x-hangar.com/mxsport.htm

Probably more ultralights available at X-Plane site, but I couldn't find a way to search that site. Found the above from google search .

Thanks Bill!!

[Buzz]

Re instructional liability, even if the instructor is on the ground he is still likely to be sued if a student is hurt or killed. All the lawyer has to do is to claim that the instructor sent the student up when the instructor knew the student wasn't ready, and the student didn't know any better, trusting the instructor... the jury is horrified...

Dana,

Cirrus was successfully sued for insufficient instruction. I quote from the case when the ruling was overtuned in Appeals. "A negligence claim against an aviation-training provider is barred under the educational-malpractice doctrine where the essence of the claim is that the provider failed to provide an effective education".

A personal injury lawyer is not going to be motivated to take the case [because they work on a contingency] with that legal precedent of Cirrus being found NOT liable on Appeals now sitting out there. Their chance of winning is essentially zero.

A lot of people are of the opinion taking the instructor out of the aircraft INCREASES liability to the instructor. Not according to the courts.

The educational-malpractice doctrine kicks in and protects him from personal liability when the instructor gets out of the airplane. [The educational-malpractice doctrine is why I can't sue my ski instructor when I break my leg, my college professors because I couldn't get a job, etc. etc.]

-Buzz

[Buzz]

Problem is, if a student damages the aircraft and the club doesn't have the funds to repair it, how will membership grow with no aircraft?

The way you keep student damage to aircraft to a known and predictable minimum is the same way an FAA training school does. With a rating system. A flight school uses Student Pilot, Private, Instrument, Multi, etc. Each of those ratings requires the demonstration of certain skill levels and has clear operating limitations [visibilities, airspace, ceilings, # of engines, etc. etc. etc.] Ditto with a GA flying club.

One hurdle is that the instructor has to submit a complete training syllabus to the FAA, which is a lot of work to create.

There needs to be a new rating system developed around the SSTM. Been working on that for two years. For a template I used the the United States Hang Gliding rating system, which is based on SSTM method and also is for a flight vehicle with operating limitations [wind gradient, cross wind, etc.] akin to the 2-axis MX trainer I envision for this.

By having a rating system with skills required and operating limitations, I believe a club can be self-insured with respect to hull damage.

There is one other KEY part of club design that I believe is necessary. That is the monitoring of the student's adherence to the operating limitations while away from the direct observation of the instructor. For instance, while we can teach a student how to make a power out landing, how do we monitor that he has always flown at a place an altitude where he can reach a suitable field to even make the landing. Each aircraft will have a GPS datalogger that has to be running at all times [or the student gets fined]. The GPS track of every flight is logged into the club on-line logbook. Those logs are reviewed by the instructor to ensure the flight was made within the operating limitations of the club. It's the things a student does when he is no longer in the direct observation of an instructor that will wipe an aircraft out the quickest.

One's share in the club buys one's share in the airplanes. A portion of the rental rate per hour will go into maintenance fund and replacement fund for the airplane. If set properly, there will be enough funds in the reserve to fix/replace the airplane if it's ever damaged or destroyed. Be it by a student or by a freak thunderstorm. The rating system AND operational limitations AND strict monitoring of adherence to the operating limitations on ALL flight operations are what keep that likelihood to a manageable limit. I think we can manage the risk to a member's investment in their club share through those 3 things.

There will need to be a fixed number of shares per trainer. One would not be able to join the club until another member wants to leave and sell their share. However, if this is a training club there should be a steady in-flow of new members and out-flow of graduates ready to sell their share and go buy their first ultralight [either alone or maybe with another graduate]. Hopefully.

Experience will tell how workable this whole concept is.

[Buzz]

You must determine if you have the desire and ability. Others can provide encouragement and assistance.

I think the primary reason this was not common in prior years is because the equipment owner was not comfortable allowing club like access to his equipment. The club should probably be a non profit and the equipment purchased by or donated to the club. The club need not make a up front payment for the equipment, it may enter a purchase agreement to make payments as membership grows and useage continues. jedi

Jedi, I started working on an utralight club training concept using the SSTM, as I may have shared elsewhere, in October '10. There were MANY hurdles to overcome. The largest being a limitation of hangar space within a reasonable drive of my house. Lots of grass airports to use easily accessible to students. No hangars.

The breakthrough came when I stumbled across a super steal on an MX in an enclosed trailer. I bought it for the MX and realized the trailer was the bigger find for me. It will hold 3 MXs. Suddenly I was able to easily scale from 1 trainer to 3 and could operate at virtually any of the available airports.

Will trailering get old at some point? Absolutely. But there are some operational advantages. The biggest is that it allows the club to "scale" and not be held back by the shortage of hangars in the area.

I could not get at the project at all last year. This year I'll be starting. I have a showroom quality MX that came in the trailer that I'll be selling to liquidate the funds and then another MX I bought that is more "trainer quality". No frills.

I'm going to get some operational experience and data with the one MX in the trailer. Once I get 5-10 students through the SSTM process and have some knowledge of wear and tear on the trainer, costs, equipment needs, etc. I'll be ready to form the club, determine what shares will cost, etc. Then I'll sell the club entity the trainer and have the club entity pay me back as the shares are sold.

I don't know how many trainers will need per X members for members to get reasonable access at a reasonable share price. That'll come with some operating experience.

If this club is successful, I'll share our blueprint with whoever can learn from my/our experience.

As you said, I think I've put enough thought and research into the idea and blogged about it enough publicly to where any of the the "woodchucks in the woodpile" I haven't been able to see myself have been brought into the light of day. I can't see any reason WHY it wouldn't work and have committed some personal bucks into it.

Time to get it off the drawing board and into the air. Like all good aviation ideas. [Or try anyway!]

-Buzz

[Buzz]

The club should probably be a non profit and the equipment purchased by or donated to the club.

By "non-profit" what you may mean is 501(3)(c). I looked at setting one up so anyone that would donate to the club could take a tax write-off.

For the little benefit that would provide, the work involved in setting one up didn't make it seem worth it.

What the club would need to be is an LLC. Those are fairly easy to set up. The members are going to have partial ownership in assets [trainers] that could land on something, hit something etc. An LLC will protect the members from any personal liability from their partial ownership of the asset.

They'll be personally liable for their flying. But that is a risk every ultralight pilot takes now and has always taken. Nothing new there.

-Buzz

[Buzz]

Buzz. You are in a position to start just such a club. You have proposed a workable system here. It is time to put it into action. I think you have a good chance to succeed and demonstrate how well the system can work. This is what the industry needs and you are in a unique position to demonstrate it. Make a list and post here what additional materials or ideas you need to put your plan into action.

Jedi, my experience in starting some businesses that were successful "paradigm shifters" is that one has to put their idea other there and invite knowledgeable people to critique it. It is a whole lot cheaper for others to point out what you "don't know you don't know" that finding that out during the launch.

So those that have challenged the idea here have made a great contribution already.