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Thread: Sport Pilot Academy

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    I dont agree with Frank and Mike's doubts about a concentrated course.
    Any reaistic training in most of the U S would be concentrated and better for it. How did and do military and airline pilots train. They dont do it with a lesson every couple of weeks. If a govt person is going oversees and needs to learn a language, or a sports team train for the season, or medical school, optimimun would be concentrated.
    And for flying, the student pilot has to pass the same written test and flight test no matter how long or short their training is.
    The week long PIC inst course for instance again proves the value of concentrated training, though I am sure it can be overdone.

    Hi Bill,

    Not sure if you were referring to me but I agree with you.

    EAA's SP Academy being a concentrated 3 week coarse is actually one of the things I'm most interested in. Three weeks of living and breathing aviation training sounds fantastic to me, especially with my prior negative flight trading experience (long drawn out training coupled with limited flying time).

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    [QUOTEI] I dont agree with Frank and Mike's doubts about a concentrated course
    Me neither, only because it too general.

    There is a difference between being a customer and being a military cadet or airline new hire. The customer can take his business elsewhere if he feels he is not getting a good product. A military cadet or new hire gets washed out of the program.

    If one takes a concentrated course, they have to be motivated, prepare and work hard to make it work. Same is true for 2 lessons per week or 2 lessons per month.[/QUOTE]

    True.

    I view 2 lessons a week as you better stay on it because your back in the seat soon, and 2 lessons a month as you better stay on it because you've got too much down time not to be. Either one is a challenge but I definitely prefer bi-weekly (at least).

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    You guys are "piecemealing" several regs together. Not all sport pilot training can be conducted with a single seat airplane, for obvious reasons.

    A single seat airplane can be used for the practical test, the applicant will have a "no passenger" limitation and he can only fly LSA aircraft that have a single seat. That limitation can not be removed by a CFI endorsement.


    § 61.45 Practical tests: Required aircraft and equipment.

    (f) Light-sport aircraft with a single seat. A practical test for a sport pilot certificate may be conducted in a light-sport aircraft having a single seat provided that the -

    (1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;

    (2) Examiner is in a position to observe the operation of the aircraft and evaluate the proficiency of the applicant; and

    (3) Pilot certificate of an applicant successfully passing the test is issued a pilot certificate with a limitation “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-seat light-sport aircraft only.”
    All you need is additional training then the CFI can sign the log saying you trained in a two seat. The limitations would be removed once this training took place in a two seat. This is how my CFI explained it to me. Like I said small bites.

  4. #24

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    So I believe we established that not all SP certificates allow for a passenger.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    All you need is additional training then the CFI can sign the log saying you trained in a two seat. The limitations would be removed once this training took place in a two seat. This is how my CFI explained it to me. Like I said small bites.
    A good rule of thumb is if a limitation is printed directly directly on the airman certificate, only an FAA inspector or DPE can remove it by issuing another certificate. Yep, training will be required, along with another practical test with an examiner, ala BIG bite.

    Cut and paste from Sport Pilot Practical Test Standards: (emphasis added)

    Sport pilots taking the practical test in a single-seat aircraft will have the
    limitation, “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-pilot seat aircraft
    only” placed on their pilot certificate, per 61.45(f)(3), limiting their
    operations to a single-seat light-sport aircraft and no passenger carriage
    will be authorized.
    Only an examiner is authorized to remove this limitation when the sport
    pilot takes a complete practical test in a two-place light-sport aircraft.

    This practical test may be conducted in the same or additional category
    of aircraft.
    Upon successful completion of the practical test, the limitation will be
    removed,
    and the sport pilot is authorized to act as pilot in command in
    all categories of light-sport aircraft that he or she has a make and model
    endorsement within a set of aircraft to operate. The limitation can also
    be removed if the sport pilot completes the certification requirements in
    an aircraft with a minimum of two places, for a higher certificate or
    rating.


    Cut and Paste from AC 61-65F: (emphasis added)

    b. The limitation “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-pilot station aircraft only”
    will be placed on the person’s pilot certificate, which limits a pilot to operations in a single-seat
    light-sport aircraft, and no passenger carriage will be authorized. Only a DPE or an ASI is
    authorized to remove this limitation.
    This can be accomplished when the sport pilot takes a
    practical test in a two-place light-sport aircraft and conducts the additional tasks identified in the
    ACS or PTS, as appropriate. This practical test may be conducted in the same or additional
    category of aircraft.
    c. Upon successful completion of the practical test, the limitation will be removed and the
    sport pilot is authorized to act as pilot in command (PIC) in all categories of light-sport aircraft
    for which he or she has an endorsement. The limitation can also be removed if the sport pilot
    completes the certification requirements in an aircraft with a minimum of two places, for a
    higher certificate or rating.
    Last edited by martymayes; 09-26-2016 at 05:37 AM.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    A good rule of thumb is if a limitation is printed directly directly on the airman certificate, only an FAA inspector or DPE can remove it by issuing another certificate. Yep, training will be required, along with another practical test with an examiner, ala BIG bite.

    Cut and paste from Sport Pilot Practical Test Standards: (emphasis added)

    Sport pilots taking the practical test in a single-seat aircraft will have the
    limitation, “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-pilot seat aircraft
    only” placed on their pilot certificate, per 61.45(f)(3), limiting their
    operations to a single-seat light-sport aircraft and no passenger carriage
    will be authorized.
    Only an examiner is authorized to remove this limitation when the sport
    pilot takes a complete practical test in a two-place light-sport aircraft.

    This practical test may be conducted in the same or additional category
    of aircraft.
    Upon successful completion of the practical test, the limitation will be
    removed,
    and the sport pilot is authorized to act as pilot in command in
    all categories of light-sport aircraft that he or she has a make and model
    endorsement within a set of aircraft to operate. The limitation can also
    be removed if the sport pilot completes the certification requirements in
    an aircraft with a minimum of two places, for a higher certificate or
    rating.


    Cut and Paste from AC 61-65F: (emphasis added)

    b. The limitation “No passenger carriage and flight in a single-pilot station aircraft only”
    will be placed on the person’s pilot certificate, which limits a pilot to operations in a single-seat
    light-sport aircraft, and no passenger carriage will be authorized. Only a DPE or an ASI is
    authorized to remove this limitation.
    This can be accomplished when the sport pilot takes a
    practical test in a two-place light-sport aircraft and conducts the additional tasks identified in the
    ACS or PTS, as appropriate. This practical test may be conducted in the same or additional
    category of aircraft.
    c. Upon successful completion of the practical test, the limitation will be removed and the
    sport pilot is authorized to act as pilot in command (PIC) in all categories of light-sport aircraft
    for which he or she has an endorsement. The limitation can also be removed if the sport pilot
    completes the certification requirements in an aircraft with a minimum of two places, for a
    higher certificate or rating.
    So now we see we can train for single place and only fly ourselves. We can then go for additional training if one desires to move up to a two seat. Then if one decides to move up even farther, one can take more training and move up to PP. If one desires. Aviation taken in bites. But I guess some view this as just one big hassle and why not force feed the training and get it over with. You then must only deal with the examiner once and not multi times.

    Tony

  7. #27

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    Just the other day I was speaking to a group of people "3" about aviation and training. These people never in their life thought about flying for they believed aviation was for those with deep pockets. When I explained to them that today the FAA allows one to take aviation in smaller bites then ever before, these men started to get interested in aviation, they wanted to hear more. Then I told them although you can do it this way, to find someone local who will train you this way is about hopeless. They will need to travel for this type of training. The sparkle went out of their eye's and they went on about their way. To bad, aviation is so much fun. It's the people in aviation who are killing aviation. IMHO. Blame the government, blame whatever or whomever you want. But it's being killed from within.

    Tony

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    Then I told them although you can do it this way, to find someone local who will train you this way is about hopeless. They will need to travel for this type of training. The sparkle went out of their eye's and they went on about their way. To bad, aviation is so much fun. It's the people in aviation who are killing aviation. IMHO. Blame the government, blame whatever or whomever you want. But it's being killed from within.
    Not sure I understand your argument but it sounds like a local operator has an obligation to provide flight training to locals even if it means losing a pile of money in the process? Otherwise, that operator is partially at fault for killing off aviation, which by the way is showing no signs of death whatsoever?

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    Not sure I understand your argument but it sounds like a local operator has an obligation to provide flight training to locals even if it means losing a pile of money in the process? Otherwise, that operator is partially at fault for killing off aviation, which by the way is showing no signs of death whatsoever?

    Not showing any signs of death...

    I went to a little gathering over the weekend at a little airstrip. We had some eats and went around looking at all the airplanes that have not moved in a decade or more. Not one, not two, not three, but many many airplanes that have so much dirt and dust on them some are hard to even tell the color. I was there for a few hrs. Take a guess at how many airplanes we had fly in or over while we had this annual lunch that is held monthly. Not one. There were about 7 of us who came for this lunch.

    Then in another town about 20 mins away we have a county airport. They hold a monthly fly-in breakfast. I drove in for the last one last month. As I get out of the car I see no other cars, I walk up to a locked door. There is a man inside and he lets me in. He informs me that for the last 6 or so breakfast no one shows up. He said we are not doing this anymore for no one comes to these anymore.

    But Marty you are right aviation is going strong. Just ask all those who flew into these lunches and breakfast I speak of. Oh wait you can't for no one flew into either of these events. Going strong I tell you. Yea right. I like it this way for when I fly, I rarely see another airplane and our strip borders a class C airport. Our strip is right on the magna line of this class C airport. I also spoke with ATC at this airport. The head man who runs this tower told me there are days no one flies in, no one. He welcomes anyone who would like to fly in for it will give them "ATC" something to do.

    Marty please explain to me what operator I mentioned that is killing off aviation? I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Tony
    Last edited by 1600vw; 09-27-2016 at 05:25 AM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    Not showing any signs of death...

    I went to a little gathering over the weekend at a little airstrip. We had some eats and went around looking at all the airplanes that have not moved in a decade or more. Not one, not two, not three, but many many airplanes that have so much dirt and dust on them some are hard to even tell the color. I was there for a few hrs. Take a guess at how many airplanes we had fly in or over while we had this annual lunch that is held monthly. Not one. There were about 7 of us who came for this lunch.

    Then in another town about 20 mins away we have a county airport. They hold a monthly fly-in breakfast. I drove in for the last one last month. As I get out of the car I see no other cars, I walk up to a locked door. There is a man inside and he lets me in. He informs me that for the last 6 or so breakfast no one shows up. He said we are not doing this anymore for no one comes to these anymore.

    But Marty you are right aviation is going strong. Just ask all those who flew into these lunches and breakfast I speak of. Oh wait you can't for no one flew into either of these events. Going strong I tell you. Yea right. I like it this way for when I fly, I rarely see another airplane and our strip borders a class C airport. Our strip is right on the magna line of this class C airport. I also spoke with ATC at this airport. The head man who runs this tower told me there are days no one flies in, no one. He welcomes anyone who would like to fly in for it will give them "ATC" something to do.
    Tony, sorry you local airport is not 'buzzing' with activity (pun intended). Maybe you guys could could change your dining menu and more people would show up? I don't go to airport lunches and breakfast but that doesn't mean I don't go flying. Maybe only the social aspect is dying?

    In contrast to your anecdotal data, I'll offer EAA's own 2016 Airventure numbers*:

    Total showplanes: 2,855 (up 7 percent over 2015):

    1,124 homebuilt aircraft (up 11 percent),

    1,032 vintage airplanes (up 7 percent),

    371 warbirds (up 6 percent),

    135 ultralights and light-sport aircraft, 101 seaplanes, 31 rotorcraft, 41 aerobatic aircraft, and 20 non-categorized aircraft

    Attendance: Approximately 563,000, an increase of nearly one percent over 2015


    The number of exhibitors was up 10% but there were a lot of vendors peddling non-aviation junk so I'll leave that stat out. At any rate, the numbers do not appear to be vital signs of a dying activity. There's no shortage of grumpy people in the world so I would expect some of them to spill over into aviation. When I get up in the morning I can either go enjoy aviation or I can sit around, be grumpy and post on internet aviation forums how aviation is dying. You have the same option. Have a good day!

    *source: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/about-eaa...ts-and-figures

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