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Thread: Scooters/bikes should be allowed more places

  1. #1

    Scooters/bikes should be allowed more places

    Airventure is hot and big. It would be nice if it was easier to see more of it. Scooters and bikes are a good way to cover more ground and riding on them creates a refreshing breeze that helps cool you down on a hot day. I understand not allowing them in populated areas. But they should be allowed in more areas. They are allowed in N40 and S40... but not HBC. They should also be allowed around the classrooms and between boeing plaza through vintage and down to STOL. They should also be allow in the fly market. Perhaps even on the outside of the hangars, not the sides facing the plaza.

    Its sad to miss something great at airventure simply because it was to far away. And no trolleys are not an option. They are too infrequent and are never going where you want, even if you can actually tell where they are going.. which you never can. Please solve this issue in the future.

  2. #2

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    I assume this is tongue in cheek ;-)

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saras 182 View Post
    Airventure is hot and big. It would be nice if it was easier to see more of it. Scooters and bikes are a good way to cover more ground and riding on them creates a refreshing breeze that helps cool you down on a hot day. I understand not allowing them in populated areas. But they should be allowed in more areas. They are allowed in N40 and S40... but not HBC. They should also be allowed around the classrooms and between boeing plaza through vintage and down to STOL. They should also be allow in the fly market. Perhaps even on the outside of the hangars, not the sides facing the plaza.

    Its sad to miss something great at airventure simply because it was to far away. And no trolleys are not an option. They are too infrequent and are never going where you want, even if you can actually tell where they are going.. which you never can. Please solve this issue in the future.
    Just in case this new poster IS actually serious? Though being a silly troll DOES seem likely.

    I cannot stress how much I DISAGREE with your suggestion. Approximately 70,000 to 85,000 people are on the AirVenture grounds EVERY day. If anything there are TOO MANY scooters, UTVs and golf carts allowed on the grounds as it is. The stretch of road from Hangar B to Ultralights is jam-packed with pedestrians, especially near Vintage to Hangar Cafe, making any form of wheeled travel a serious challenge, trams have a hard time making that turn and safely proceeding. Same situation on the 'Yellow' tram route through the exhibit hangar area. Adding more scooters/bikes would make it a nightmare beyond belief. I've been a Tram Conductor for over 15 years so I'm kinda 'familiar' with their daily operation. We run a pretty well orchestrated process that provides never more than a 5-10 minute wait for a tram to arrive at each stop. ALL the tram stops are identified by a VERY tall rectangular pylon, on BOTH sides of the road, color coded to the route, and furnished with an eye-level sign indicating where its next stop will be. The AirVenture grounds map (free at the admission gates) clearly shows each of the routes we run. If you see me next year I will gladly show you how to know where each one is going, so that's one of your problems solved.

    As to having a personal conveyance to take you everywhere your heart desires, whenever you wish to go there? Might I respectfully suggest that you consider renting a mobility scooter, available near the Main Gate? I have mobility issues myself that limit how far I can walk. I own a mobility scooter that restores the freedom of my youth and it is GREAT. Were it not for my allowed medical mobility device I too would miss most of wonderful things to see and do at this Convention.
    Last edited by CHICAGORANDY; 07-31-2023 at 07:28 AM.
    "Don't believe everything you see or read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

  4. #4
    Inspector Fenwick's Avatar
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    I would never suggest that scooters not be available for those who cannot otherwise navigate the vastness of this event due to a health issue. BUT.....just because grandpa or grandma need one, that does not mean that little Skippy the grandson should allowed to ride around on one. BIKES???? No freaking way.

    (Yes, I bit on troll bait.........).
    Larry Nelson EAA 35011
    President EAA Chapter 821
    Springfield, MO
    PA 30 / Cessna 195

  5. #5

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    How about we don’t?

    We already have too many golf carts and ATV’s mixing with the walkers. I had my foot run over by a kid, yes a kid, driving a big UTV through vintage after the night airshow.

    The trams are easy to tell where they are going. It’s all on the map. An improvement would be another route around the east of Boeing. And increase the number of trams because if you don’t get on at the start/end, you won’t get on in the middle. The southbound stop at warbirds and northbound at ultralight and vintage are just a waste of space - the tram is always full. Same for all the mid stops on the yellow route. Didn’t see one person able to get on in the whole week.

    Airventure always brings out the worst in people. In Scholler after the night airshow, a guy was walking down one of the roads with his three pre-teen kids spread out holding hands, telling them “we’re not letting any scooters or carts pass”. These are the kind of entitled, selfish people you want mixing inside the grounds with different forms of transportation?

    We have rules and signs all over that motorized vehicles must be driven by a licensed driver that are ignored and not enforced. I thought there was a rule against private vehicles on the show grounds, but watched a guy unload a utv in Scholler and saw him the next day driving it past ultralights.

    You literally want to allow scooters and bikes in the most dense areas of the show. The fly market? Really? People are already bumping into each other just walking. If you don’t feel like walking or using the trams like everyone else, you can rent a mobility scooter outside the main gate. They don’t check for a disability, just being lazy or entitled is good enough.

  6. #6

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    For some 'behind the scenes' info - on the Tram routes, this year we were running an empty tram out of the turn-around terminals about every 3rd or 4th tram because we KNOW there are good folks waiting at the next stop after a terminal who otherwise won't ever get a ride. On a related note, I mostly worked the Blue and Red this year and I tried to ALWAYS leave at least the last row of my tram empty when we pulled out of a terminal to be able to seat 4 or 5 would-be passengers down the line.

    But math is math. A tram holds 'about' 40 people vs 75,000 daily visitors who might seek a ride. We gotta make a LOT of trips. lol A bit of history, trams were first created long ago with the sole purpose of providing transport to ONLY the elderly and the disabled. They now accept all all passengers and often tram seats are full of the young able-bodied who ride past older folks waiting at a stop. Just sayin'.
    "Don't believe everything you see or read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

  7. #7

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    I wonder if anyone is keeping track of the average age of the crowd. While attendance keeps creeping up, it sure looks like the age is too. Not too many younguns can afford the ever increasing amount of serviced sites and high tech gizmos on display. It’s hard getting around in the heat for us with more years behind than ahead. I was feeling like I was about to collapse a bit south of homebuilts. Nowhere to cool down, no way to get back to the rv. Just people staring out from icy cold members only buildings and golf carts zipping by on their way to get some more grey poupon. I read somewhere that even the volunteer driven handicap golf carts were canceled this year. I guess there’s no profit in selling $2 bottled water and $15 hamburgers.

    Really, for what we pay in admission, parking, camping, and necessities of life, and the vendors pay just for a little booth, the EAA should throw the membership a bone. Giving away a 20 cent bottle of water or adding a/c to a few of their buildings, like the clothing stores where people can buy things, won’t cause them to go bankrupt. Add a tram route through Boeing square with stops on either side, even if it has to be stopped for movements. Another single small tram to shuttle between the red warbirds stop and the actual warbirds and tri-motor. Make it handicap prioritized. Whether you believe in climate change or not, it’s getting hotter for the event and the attendees are getting older. If we can’t change the date to something more comfortable, at least we should try to compensate for the effects.

  8. #8
    PaulDow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY View Post
    …trams were first created long ago with the sole purpose of providing transport to ONLY the elderly and the disabled. They now accept all all passengers…
    The grounds were quite a bit smaller back then though. Of course the main issue is how much should be spent for one week a year. From a rough measurement on Google Earth, it’s .4 miles from the main entrance to the flight line. Warbirds to Ultralights is 1-1/3 miles. The distances from the entrance to the campers and auto parking is getting farther away. The campgrounds were expanded four times last week. There was talk about using off-site parking over the weekend.
    Exhibitors wouldn’t want people being transported past their displays too.

    Edit: The slickest solution would be to have Elon’s Boring Company put some tubes in.
    That locks the design though, the way busses are more flexible than trolley tracks.

    How about a bunch of those Wisk air taxis?
    Last edited by PaulDow; 07-31-2023 at 12:07 PM.

  9. #9

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    "Of course the main issue is how much should be spent for one week a year. "

    An excellent and important point. Buying more trams to accommodate the continuing increase in attendance each year could be a significant cash outlay.

    For the tram operations there further needs to be a sufficient number of volunteers to operate the service. There is a driver and a conductor for each unit, on both shifts, safety officers (2) at both terminals both shifts, plus extra tram team workers at the two terminals to provide breaks for each route on both shifts. There are always days during AirVenture when tram volunteer availability is the limiting factor on how many trams can be put into service. Then there is the need for spare tractors and wagons to provide for the mechanical breakdowns and flat tires that occur every year.

    What's that saying? "The difficult takes time, the impossible takes money" and at AirVenture it IS volunteers that make it all happen.

    "Don't believe everything you see or read on the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY View Post
    For some 'behind the scenes' info - on the Tram routes, this year we were running an empty tram out of the turn-around terminals about every 3rd or 4th tram because we KNOW there are good folks waiting at the next stop after a terminal who otherwise won't ever get a ride.
    I didn't witness this happening on the yellow route, at least twice I ended up walking to the tram terminal after watching 4 full trams drive by Hangar C.

    But I will say that I think the stops and the signage was about perfect this year. You knew what the next stop was as it was clearly spelled out. Only thing that was bad were the people who had no earthly clue what tram route ran where, but that isn't on the tram system, that is on the fact people didn't educate themselves by taking 5 minutes to look at a map to see what route went where.

    And one other note, the express trams to N40 and "Ultralights" were great ideas, other than the "Ultralight" express didn't stop anywhere near Ultralights, but at the northern boundary of the S40.
    Last edited by krw920; 07-31-2023 at 12:02 PM.

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