During the initial 40 hour fly off can I fly with a "safety pilot"?
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During the initial 40 hour fly off can I fly with a "safety pilot"?
No.
I thought the rules stated you could fly with the "essential crew" or something like that....just deem the safety pilot essential. Probably one of those grey areas
How do you "deem" a safety pilot "essential"? Assuming that this a design with a required crew of one (i.e., the pilot), you're saying the plane can't be flown unless the PIC is wearing a vision-limiting device? No, that's not going to cut it.Quote:
Originally Posted by uavmx
Well...not THAT gray. Unless the operating limitations require a second pilot, I doubt the FAA would accept the explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by uavmx
That said, we used to have a Tech Counselor up here who would make first flights with the builder along. The builder's job was to monitor the engine while the pilot concentrated on airmanship.
I'm not saying it was *legal*, just that he did it.
In one case, the engine quit at altitude and the pilot quickly lowered the nose. He told the builder (the guy supposed to be monitoring the engine) that the engine quit, and the guy replied, "No it didn't." He was looking at the tachometer and oil pressure, which stayed high as the prop was windmilling.
Ron Wanttaja
Well, I would say an absolute "no" is not the correct response to the question.
ref: Sport Aviation, November 1983, a Jack Cox article about Fred Keller's Rutan Defiant (excerpt provided):
He had the airframe completed to the extent thatit would be test flown in early July, so, as planned, BurtRutan came to Anchorage to do the honors. Since the twoof them planned to record a lot of data on the test flights,FAA permitted Fred to accompany Burt. The first flightwas made on July 16, lasting 1.3 hours and resulting in 3 pages of notes.
So I guess it would be safe to say if you can convince the FAA you need a "safety pilot" it would not be out of the realm of possibility. I wouldn't think the FAA gets many such request so I'd guess their first reaction would be one of surprise.
yeah, I think that is the way around it. If you have a flight test program, and that includes recording data, then the second person is a crew member for the purposes of tracking data
I'm not sure that'll hold up to a ramp check or in front of the accident investigation board.Quote:
Originally Posted by uavmx
The only way I'd even consider it would be if the operating limitations specifically mentioned a second crewmember for data recording. Otherwise, a kneeboard and a pencil are the time proven tools for data recording during test flights.
I informally ran it past the FSDO here a few months back and they said it was plausible if one were working on an entirely new design or a significantly new design. I happen to be doing so which is why I had inquired about it. The guy I spoke with said it would have to be included in the operating limitations or that I could simply ask for the operating instructions to stipulate two pilots are required (which is how I plan to fly it anyhow, especially when doing IFR operations in actual IMC) and then amend them after the fact if I want to remove the restriction.Quote:
If you have a flight test program, and that includes recording data, then the second person is a crew member for the purposes of tracking data
If you're just afraid to or uncomfortable with flying your new RV-6, you'll have a much tougher time most likely.
According to Advisory Circular 20-27 http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-27G.pdf
14 e. Restrictions.
(1) Carrying Passengers. You may not carry passengers while you are restricted to the flight test area or during any portion of your phase I flight test program. We suggest you use a tape or video recorder for recording readings and other similar tasks. If you need an additional crewmember for a particular flight test, specify that in your application program letter for the airworthiness certificate. We will list this need in your operating limitations.
(2) Flight Instruction. You may not receive flight instruction during your flight test.
I can state with some certainty that simply needing to record engine temps, etc. won't get you there. Nor will transition training (personally I'd like to see this changed to allow transition training after say 10 hours). But you can always ask, I've seen some weird things approved out in the field on a one off basis!
AC 23-8B - Flight Test Guide for Certification of Part 23 AirplanesQuote:
I can state with some certainty that simply needing to record engine temps, etc. won't get you there.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...cumentID/74377
23.1419-2D - Certification of Part 23 Airplanes for Flight in Icing Conditions
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/cf3b88901453a59a8625730d006e4993/$FILE/AC23-1419-2D-Change1.pdf
That should get you there. It should also get you a request to have your head examined but then again, if we're going to test the design, let's freaking test it. ;)
You cannot fly with a safety pilot. You cannot receive instruction. You can fly with a second person IF the operating limitations (which you write and can change later) requre 2 people. The FSDO near me has told local builders that taking notes and recording instrument indications are not sufficient tasks for requiring 2 people. (A video camera could do that, they say.) But the FSDO has also indicated that two people may be required in flight for testing the CG / weight envelope. The second person (not necessarily a pilot) would have the job of shifting (their own?) weight within the cockpit from the known-safe position to the CG position to be tested.
Of course I've heard other FSDO representatives state that there is never any valid reason for 2 people to be in the cockpit of an amateur-built experimental aircraft during flight testing.
Even if you can get the FSDO to OK it in writing, you might want to check with your insurance company to make sure they won't contest the coverage if something happened during a phase-1, 2-pilot operation.
Now that post about adding the 2nd person for weight testing actually makes some sense to me. I was all on the side that if it's a simple, 2-place, single-engine, fixed-gear, fixed-pitch-prop, etc. - that there's no way, ever, that we should even try to push the rules by putting a 2nd person in there and try to make up some claim of "essentialness". For my Sonex, that was no problem. Higher weight / aft cg was the last testing I did, and it was pretty easy to add a "passenger" in the form of 60-lb bags of cement, one bag at a time, with the 4th bag reduced to 40 lbs, for a total of 220 lbs of "passenger". But now I'm building a tandem-seater. I really, REALLY don't want multiple bags balanced on the skinny seat between my feet. In the side-by-side, I could push the load around some if I had to, but in a tandem, load shifts (falls into the stick), game over. The whole point of all this is safety, and multiple very heavy bags of stuff balanced next to a stick that you can't get to in flight doesn't sound all that good to me. Then there's getting that stuff in and out of a fabric-covered airframe between the wings, etc - yes, it's a biplane... I guess I'll store the idea away for the program letter and just write it in and see what happens...
Absolutely NOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brmmd
IF you can convince a DAR or the FAA that you need a 2nd person in the airplane, they may allow you BUT you will only be allowed to fly the airplane with a required CREW of two from here on out.
Unless you have the operating limitations revised.Quote:
BUT you will only be allowed to fly the airplane with a required CREW of two from here on out.
Check AC 90-116, 9-23-14, Add'l Pilot Program for Phase I Flight Test. Apparently the FAA now believes there may be a legitimate reason to have a qualified pilot on board to help especially in case of LOC or engine out situations. The bulk of this AC appears to describe a formal vetting process to determine a second pilot's eligibility as either a QP (qualified pilot) or OP (observer pilot) then describes some possible scenarios in which having a 2nd pilot may be appropriate.