Sport pilot phase 1 for LSA compliant E-AB

Hi, I am starting up a small flying club with a Best-off Skyranger. It still needs the rest of it's phase 1 completed, so we are going to be doing that. However, one DAR we talked to who is helping us with the purchase said that a PPL or greater was required to fly the testing hours. I haven't found anything in the regulations or operating limitations that would suggest that is the case, and haven't seen anyone else mention this. Indeed, everything I've read really specifically omits any difference in pilot requirements for phase 1 vs phase 2. Am I missing something here? This is definitely a plane that 100% will meet the LSA criteria with wide margins (1200# gross, speed range from Vs=37mph to Vh=100mph) without issue.

Ask the DAR to cite the relevant regulation.

My friend flew off the phase 1 on the Sonerai he built while was a student pilot. Yes, his instructor signed him off to solo in it.

This thread is just wrong on so many levels. And if you don’t understand the comment talk to any EAB insurance underwriter, an AOPA ASF rep, EAA”s Homebuilt Community Manager, or an FAA Safety Team rep.

Look for this paragraph in your operating limitations:
"The pilot in command must hold Airplane category and Single-Engine Land class certificate or privilege. The pilot in command must hold all required ratings or authorizations, and endorsements required by part 61. (7)"
It says nothing about PPL or greater.

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Originally Posted by wmax351

Hi, I am starting up a small flying club with a Best-off Skyranger. It still needs the rest of it's phase 1 completed, so we are going to be doing that. However, one DAR we talked to who is helping us with the purchase said that a PPL or greater was required to fly the testing hours. I haven't found anything in the regulations or operating limitations that would suggest that is the case, and haven't seen anyone else mention this. Indeed, everything I've read really specifically omits any difference in pilot requirements for phase 1 vs phase 2. Am I missing something here? This is definitely a plane that 100% will meet the LSA criteria with wide margins (1200# gross, speed range from Vs=37mph to Vh=100mph) without issue.

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I'd recommend listening to Mel......He's been at this a looooooong time.

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Originally Posted by malexander

I'd recommend listening to Mel......He's been at this a looooooong time.

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Actually I was in the first group of DARs authorized to do LSA. IIRC, Joe Norris and I were the first 2.

Let’s talk safety..... First, I’m surprised and disappointed that no one from the EAA staff has weighed in on this thread. Is there anybody out there that really thinks that the average student is equipped to handle a potential UTE or IFE during Phase I testing; even for a cookie cutter kitplane?

Back to the OP. As for the practicality, in order to receive a solo endorsement the CFI is required to provide flight training in the Make and Model. Do you have access to a Phase II Skyranger? Not questioning your flight skills but it’s highly unlikely you’re going to get an endorsement right up front that will turn you lose to “play” in your designated flight test area. As a CFI, I would NEVER sign off a student to fly a Phase I EAB. The liability is just too great.

Bottom line, contact a chapter in your area or talk with the FAA and find someone qualified to fly off your Phase I. It will be faster, cheaper and safer in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

First, I’m surprised and disappointed that no one from the EAA staff has weighed in on this thread.

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I've been keeping an eye on it, but Mel is absolutely correct and I don't have anything to add. I would be happy to help, however. If you want to talk, please call 800-564-6322 and ask for me.

There is no rule or operating limitation that would preclude a someone other than a PPL from flying an aircraft in Phase I that they are appropriately rated/endorsed to fly. In fact, when we created the additional pilot program with the FAA we were sure to add a provision that allowed sport pilots (and even rec pilots) to be additional pilots (see AC 90-116, Page 14).

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

Let’s talk safety..... First, I’m surprised and disappointed that no one from the EAA staff has weighed in on this thread. Is there anybody out there that really thinks that the average student is equipped to handle a potential UTE or IFE during Phase I testing; even for a cookie cutter kitplane?

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Did you mean to say student, or Sport Pilot? One was mentioned in the subject line, the other was not. I don't think a student pilot flying off Phase I would be the greatest idea, but I suppose that would be a question for the student, his or her CFI, and maybe (maybe) the DAR.

To be honest I got sidetracked by your comment about your student pilot friend who flew off a Phase I in a Sonerai but personally I would say a Sport Pilot flying off a Phase I would be solely dependent on his experience and skill level. For example, if he was say 100-150 hr SP and had no spin training I would say not only no but hell no.

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

To be honest I got sidetracked by your comment about your student pilot friend who flew off a Phase I in a Sonerai but personally I would say a Sport Pilot flying off a Phase I would be solely dependent on his experience and skill level. For example, if he was say 100-150 hr SP and had no spin training I would say not only no but hell no.

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But this would also apply to ANYONE flight testing ANY new aircraft of ANY kind!

Over a 10-year period (2009-2018) inflight loss of control – mainly stalls – accounted for the largest number of GA fatal accidents. After engine failures what is the second largest cause of accidents in the EAB world - loss of control. There is nothing magic about accumulating 100 or 200 hours post check ride that prepares one for testing an aircraft. After spending 33 years in the flight test business I witnessed even the most experienced test pilots get tripped up when things didn’t go as planned. The difference is they are trained to recognize and recover where the amateur pilot is not. The pilot assist program is great especially in the RV, Zenith and Sonex world. I would guess it’s effectiveness falls off pretty quickly for other designs.

Trying not to derail!

1) Student pilots aren't mentioned in the first post, and I think we all agree that it's kinda dumb for a student to perform test flights on a new aircraft. A student pilot doesn't know what right looks like, let alone bad.
2) Sounds like the DAR has a bias against Sport Pilots, or is ignorant of what being a Sport Pilot entails. There is no specification listed of the type of ticket one has, so long as it is appropriate for the aircraft.

3) I'm a Sport Pilot and flew my aircraft through it's test phase. While I had spin training, I had less than 100 hours (though almost all of it was in a Champ), which I think was just fine for the light little biplane I built. Since it's single seat, there was no transition training.

Expanding on #2, it's pretty common. For my flight review, I always select a new CFI to get an unbiased opinion and try something new. The last time was in a C152 (never piloted one before that day) in controlled airspace (which I had never flow in).

The instructor was pretty good and didn't bat an eye on my Sport Pilot ticket; we just spent a few more minutes on the talking about the aircraft beyond the standard ground stuff. He said my stick and rudder skills were better than average, which they should be.

When one of his young CFI's came in while we were settling the bill, it was remarked on that I'm a Sport Pilot. The guy literally looked down his nose under his aviator's sunglasses and said "A Sport Pilot? And how did that go?"

"Well, he could teach you a thing or two about slow flight," was the response.

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Originally Posted by Frank Giger

Trying not to derail!


2) Sounds like the DAR has a bias against Sport Pilots, or is ignorant of what being a Sport Pilot entails. There is no specification listed of the type of ticket one has, so long as it is appropriate for the aircraft.

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Not sure where I said anything against Sport Pilots. If I did, I apologize. I agree 100% with the Sport Pilot program. My comment was to agree that the competence of the test pilot is much more important than the "type" of pilot.

I agree, also, with your choosing a different instructor for each flight review. I do the same. Different instructors concentrate on different things. Learning continues forever. When we stop learning, the end is near!

No offense intended. I was referring to the DAR in the original post, who said only PPL holders could do test flights.

Apologies!

Sorry. I misunderstood your comment.