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Every wristband has "Smoking allowed in designated areas ONLY"
So, where are these designated areas, and how are they identified?
What action does EAA take against an offender, if any?
I'm not a smoker. Just asking so I understand where I can direct a
smoker/vaper to a properly designated area when I challenge them.
Alas, they are not at all well marked. The noted ones are between the exhibit buildings where the ashtrays are installed.
Conflicting information indicates whether smoking in the corralled seating areas of some of the food venues is permitted or not.
I see that rather than having any health concern, you just hate smokers since you want to harrass vapers as well as those polluting the air with carcinogenic smoke or flammable materials around aircraft.
I’m a non smoker and detest secondhand smoke or vape. If you’re gonna generate smoke it better be BBQ!! Given the number of aircraft, kids, people congestion and other flammable materials such as banners I think the whole event should be smoke free. If you want to smoke or vape go back to your car, camp site, or outside the fence if you are an aircraft camper.
Ron- Nobody hates smokers. I blame the Cigarette manufactures and the government for where we are today with Cigarettes. The simple truth is Cigarettes kill people. Plain and simple. Exposure to both 1st, 2nd and 3rd Hand Smoke is deadly. There’s no getting around that. Cigarette Smoke is Radioactive. You read that right. It’s actually Radioactive. Polonium 210 is in Cigarette Smoke. So every time someone lights up they and those around them are being exposed to Radiation. Not to mention Hydrogen Cyanide, Benzene, Acetone, Formaldehyde and 6996 other known carcinogens.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
My Grandpa was a Flight Surgeon with the 8th Air Force in WW2. His take on Cigarettes was they killed more troops than combat- just not as quickly. He tried to get the 8th Air Force to stop issuing them in Airman’s Rations. He knew the consequences even at that time. After the war he pioneered some of the earliest studies and ground breaking research on Heart Disease. He was looking to stop it altogether. He said if people didn’t smoke there wouldn’t be much need for his research. Smoking kills Moms and Dads, Grandpa’s and Grandmas, Aunts, Uncles and even babies. On top of that Health Complications directly caused by smoking cost our economy 400 Billion Dollars a year. Lost productivity, otherwise totally unnecessary health care like treatments and procedures for lung cancer, other cancers, emphysema, amputations, COPD and Heart Disease Cost not just our economy but families as well. No one should ever find out that they are going to die because they bought a product, used it and now they or their family members have a terminal disease as a direct result.
Ive talked on this forum many times about Cigarettes/Vape at the show. I don’t want to be exposed it. I don’t want my family exposed to it. Period. I don’t want anyone smoking any where in the same zip code as my Aircraft. At this point it’s just common sense that anyone who wishes to smoke or vape do so not at the Airshow. If you personally smoke Ron, I urge you to do everything you can to quit. It’s not too late and there’s resources out there to help. The problem with Cigarettes is they’re more addictive than heroin. The Cigarette Manufactures do that on purpose. So it’s not the smokers fault. They probably got hooked on it as a kid. The Cigarette manufactures should be in jail for this. It’s pretty much that simple.
As a former smoker, I too hate second-hand smoke, probably more than most That said... the degree of chicken-little panic in which some people like to indulge is somewhere between amazing and amusing. If you're outdoors, the amount of smoke you may be subject to experiencing is so small as to be totally negligible. You'll probably have more risk from harmful bacteria in an hour than harmful smoke in a day. If you're directly downwind of someone with a cigarette, either of you taking one or two steps can fix that quickly and easily. And it may shock people to learn that smokers are actually aware of the fact that they are holding a lit cigarette, and very nearly all of them are thus careful about not setting things on fire. It's kind of a self preservation thing you learn early on.
The percentage of smokers in the general population has shrunk dramatically in the past few decades. From well over 40% in the 1960s, to 25% in '97 (just after I quit), to about 15% now, maybe less... smokers are a dying breed, if you'll pardon the expression.
Lucky me, I quit smoking 5 years ago. But I smoked at Oshkosh for many, many years before I quit. I made sure over time that I knew where every single designated spot was from Warbirds to Ultralights, from the main entrance to the flightline. You'll find most of them on the show map handed out when you register, others you'll find by just walking around and talking to smokers in the designated spots. They are easily identifiable, white plastic containers with the words "BUTT CAN" written in red.
Ronald, don't challenge a smoker in a non-designated area, they'll just tell you to go do something real nasty to yourself. Instead, just say you'd appreciate them smoking in the designated areas only as a courtesy to the majority of non-smokers in attendance and thank them for doing so. No fuss, no muss, no unwanted altercations.
And the more you "dig in", the more they will too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
As soon as one person feels free to smoke away from designated areas others will follow suit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB
Case in point: I reminded two gentlemen this year that smoking (Cigars in this case) was not allowed on the flight line. Their response was "Well, so and so was just smoking a pipe." I say nip it in the butt before it becomes widespread, before that unseen vapor from an overfilled fuel tank venting into the hot sun becomes a disaster.
As for smokers being careful.....Not the lady I witnessed lighting up while using a propane exchange locker as a windbreak.
Maybe the tram conductors could make an occasional public service announcement (between their jokes) reminding people.
Stanford did the study on outdoor second hand smoke exposure. What Dale’s saying about outdoor exposure is just not true. Exposure is dangerous on any level. IE -Polonium 210. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that Radiation exposure is bad. Not to mention Benzene, Hydrogen Cyanide and Acetone. Get real Dale. Go check out the science and data on it. I shouldn’t have to pay 174 dollars for one days worth of admission to the Airshow for my family just to have the pleasure of walking through clouds of carcinogens and Radiation. Thanks though.
The most dangerous part of Airventure is getting there. Driving or flying - both are dangerous. Second hand smoke in an outdoor setting? Negligible risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17
Have you considered the skin cancer risks due to sun exposure?
That's not the point, Kyle. It's about ignoring the rules. Without rules and following the rules you have chaos and people who put self above community. Don McLean's 'American Pie' pretty much sums up this new America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Next year's Oshkosh will only be 4 days for me rather than my usual 10. I'm reaching the point where I've had enough.
Some are just oblivious to the non-smoking policy. They are likely non-aviators and possibly first-timers at Oshkosh. For the Wednesday night airshow, the announcer comes over the speaker and gives the non-smoking announcement. Within 2 minutes a guy to our right, sitting in the massive crowd, under a Cessna wing (not his), lights up. At least 3 people erupted and and quickly reminded him of the rule. He had no idea and quickly put it out, apologized to everyone around him. Likely similar to the people who bring tents to the front of the flight line for the airshow. Most still get away with that...
I'd buy your disingenuous explanation if you had limited yourself to smokers, but you decided to become the holier than thou arbitrator of vapers as well. It appeasr that no matter how safe-to-you and inobtrusive the act, the truth is you have an unjustified prejudice against those users.
I despise smoking. I'd greatly appreciate if the grounds were smoke free, but I can deal with the current rules and don't often see the rules broken. I don't want to see the rules broken. That said, EAA relies on peer pressure and gentle persuasion to corral the smokers. IMO, EAA doesn't have the resources to police this on a site as large as Oshkosh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Franck
But my implied point was I thought the other poster running down a list of chemicals in second hand smoke was a bit overdone. There are much bigger risks built into the Oshkosh experience and/or everyday life.
I think you have your songs confused. "American Pie" was about the day the music died, Feb. 2, 1959, Buddy Holly, the Big Bopper and Richie Valens in a plane crash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Franck
The song you are probably thinking about that references rules and breaking those rules in a satiric, humourous manner is "Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie. It wasn't about smokin', it was about litterin'. "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant, except Alice."
...and creating a nuisance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
Kyle- the reason I know the Chemicals in Cigarette Smoke is because exposure to Second Hand Smoke in a Public Outdoor Setting almost killed my 6 year old niece. So nope, not “A Bit Overdone”. In less than 3 minutes a little girl who loves airplanes, puppies, coloring and baby goats went from a perfectly healthy and normal little sweetheart to full cardiac arrest in her mother’s arms. Her lips turned ice blue. Her face was literally gun metal grey. Pretty much the scariest experience of my life. Since then I’ve become an expert on Second Hand Smoke and what it can do. I’m well versed in parts per million, downwind slip stream, chemical vapor composition and molecular structure. So don’t tell me about “much bigger risks”. Our job as pilots is to mitigate risk. We don’t pick and choose which risk. We do everything in our power to mitigate any risk we can think of. Period. Second Hand Smoke is a major risk. Plain and Simple. The Surgeon General of the United States says so. The American Heart Association says so. The American Lung Association says so. But most importantly, my 6 year old niece says so. And I’m going to take her word for it every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Read this Ron-
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/14/health/vaping-lung-disease-minnesota/index.html
[QUOTE=FlyingRon;77482]I'd buy your disingenuous explanation if you had limited yourself to smokers, but you decided to become the holier than thou arbitrator of vapers as well. It appeasr that no matter how safe-to-you and inobtrusive the act, the truth is you have an unjustified prejudice against those users.[/QUOTE
Yeah so? The issue isn't whether the activity is unhealthy for the person partaking in it, but whether it creates a health problem for those in the vicinity who aren't partaking in it.
Frankly, I can't understand the hatred towards vapers. There's no indication that "second hand vaping" causes any problem and in fact, I've sat right next to vapers without realizing what they were doing until I caught them taking a hit from it. It would appear that there's no rational use for this other than that people hate the concept of smokers more than they fear any impact on their own health.
I can't see vaping as big of a health hazard as breathing TEL fumes form 13.000 leaded-fuel burning aircraft.
Particulate matter found in Vape discharge is dangerous to anyone breathing it. I would highly recommend not breathing it. It’s 100 Percent a problem for those in the Vicinity. That’s what Johns Hopkins has to say on it from their research but honestly it doesn’t take research to just have common sense on it. Our bodies are designed to breath oxygen. Not nicotine. Not Formaldehyde. Not hydrogen Cynaide. None of that. Just oxygen. All of those chemicals have been found in Vape as well as Cigarettes. So yup. Vape isn’t safe from a Second Hand Smoke exposure prospective either.
Hopkins didn't say that. A pulmonologist associated with them and who is a FLACK for the ALA, said it "could" be a problem. Others say no. The secondary "vape cloud" is much less encompassing than smoke. Unless the vaper is blowing out in your face, it's not likely a problem.
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Again... me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Or even being within visual range of someone smoking (gasp!! OMG!!) an actual cigarette.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/...d-E-CigarettesQuote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-rele...te-vapors.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
[QUOTE=DaleB;77508]Me too.
Again... me too.
Or even being within visual range of someone smoking (gasp!! OMG!!) an actual cigarette.[/QUOTE
Hey Dale- You watch your 6 year old niece dying in front of you in her moms arms because she breathed in toxins from Second Hand Smoke and there’s not a thing you can do to help her. We’ll see how “over done” you feel about exposing the truth of what’s in 2nd Hand Smoke and the extreme danger it presents to people. We’re all pilots here. We’re all on the same team. If I tell you that a little girl would love to be able to come to Oshkosh to see the best Airshow on the planet with her brothers and uncle every year but she can’t because some smoker thinks it’s just too important to light up- what would you say about that? She cried this year because she’s old enough to understand what she’s missing out on and how much fun the boys have every year at the Airshow. How would that make you feel bud? I can tell you first hand how it makes me feel- Aviation is missing out on an incredibly intelligent passionate and resilient little girl who one day will grow up and remember that she was excluded from the greatest show on earth because the EAA didn’t have the courage to stand up and do what’s right. Cigarettes/Vape/Tobacco Products of any kind have ZERO business being at a family oriented major event like Oshkosh. Our kids are the future of Aviation and it isn’t exactly smart to exclude them because we think gate receipts might take a hit if we ban tobacco. In fact it’s flat out stupid not to ban tobacco because the gate receipts would be much higher if we did because families like myself and Francks would come out in much greater numbers.
This thread kind of highlights an experience I had this weekend.
Washington State prohibited most indoor smoking back in 1985. In that time, one tended to forget what it was like BEFORE the law.
I spent this last weekend at a sea-side resort near home (drinking Guinness and singing along to Irish music at the Galway Bay Pub, if anyone's wondering). During the weekend, we were casting about for somewhere different to eat dinner, and we decided a nearly new local casino would be worth a try.
It's owned by a local Indian tribe...and, of course, the state anti-smoking rules don't apply.
We walked into the place, and were nearly knocked on our keisters by the smell of stale cigarette smoke. In 35 years, we'd forgotten how truly awful the atmosphere was, back before indoor smoking was banned.
Geeze. Obviously, we went elsewhere for food.
Ron "No, Nay, Never" Wanttaja
Just wondering out loud, what health smart chemicals are in aircraft exhaust, showplane aerobatic smoke - seems like everyone uses it to the max - and fuel powered pyrotechnics? You know, like spectators could/do inhale at most all airshows?
How about exhaust from all the school buses and John Deere tractors? Or vapors at the gas pump? or peanuts (if you're allergic) or bees, or ...........
Maybe the answer is to just to try and enjoy life in moderation? Understanding that sometimes very rare 'stuff' can and does happen to a tiny minority of our fellow humans, who MUST never be exposed to even small amounts of some things. Which does make their individual lives a true challenge.
Mark 17, if as you say the little girl did actually pass out while being outdoors at Airventure, what then? Did you seek a doctor or medical help and if so what did they say about her condition and diagnose? Is it like an allergy to nuts?
I have never heard of anyone passing out in that situation nor seen it in the 37 years I have been coming to Oshkosh, not even in the awful pollution caused by the planes using Corvus oil for smoke which blows onto the crowd.
Most of us grew up in a time when there was smoking in restaurants and public places and I have never heard of anyone passing out from it. My Dad once smoked and my Stepmom did and I hated the stink of it but never saw anyone adult or child pass out around her. Even today if you go into a hotel or such there is 2nd hand smoke from people who are out there and not allowed to smoke indoors. How do you have the child go any of these places?
Hey Randy- I get what you’re saying bud and I agree with your basic premise. Obviously Avgas and smoke oil and the like are not good to breath. The main difference here is the proximity to the Chemicals found in both. When someone lights up a cigarette, it can be right next to you or it can be 100 yards away. Even at 100 yards Cigarette smoke contains hydrogen Cynaide and Polonium 210. Polonium 210 is Radioactive. I don’t need to tell ya what Radiation does obviously. Hydrogen Cynaide on the other hand is its own toxic animal. It’s is so toxic that it actually alters your DNA when exposed to it even at short and medium distances and limited exposure sets. So at 50 yards, even as you walk through it, it’s actually altering your DNA. I know it sounds crazy but it’s actually true. I didn’t know a lot about cigarettes before my niece had her experience. Unfortunately, now I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY
With our family anyway I think there’s a basic understanding what the risks are both environmentally and physically by attending Oshkosh. What I’m not willing to accept however is knowingly being exposed to chemicals in close proximity that fundamentally are designed to kill people that are found in Cigarette Smoke/Vape when it would be so easy to just say ya know what- everyone knows that 2nd Hand Smoke is dangerous so in a move to make it safer for everyone at Oshkosh we’ll just nip this in the butt right now! Lol did you see what I did there!?
Randy I’ve been flying for 35 years. My dad’s been flying for 61 years. Obviously being exposed to 100LL that entire time. Given the choice I would never expose myself or family to 100LL. But currently there’s not much in the way for options to avoid it. Cigarettes/Vape/Tobacco can easily be avoided if EAA would ban it. That Solution is a heck of a lot easier than coming up with a brand new fuel alternative on the spot. In today’s day and age with everything that we know about 2nd hand smoke and the consequences of involuntary exposure, it’s just the right thing to do for everyone. From a liability standpoint alone, it’s smart. From a health prospective it’s smart. My Dad is a retired Navy Captain and Flight Surgeon. He flew Super Constellations in Vietnam on Hurricane Tracker Missions. The one thing he said besides the amazement of watching the connie’s Wings flap up and down like an eagle in flight, was the entire crew smoked on the plane for the duration of the mission. Sometimes 10 hour flights. Of the guys that flew on my Dad’s Crew, My Dad is the only one left. He’s obviously not a smoker. Same with my Grandpa. He was an 8th Air Force Flight Surgeon. He outlived all of his WW2 buddies- again, they smoked and he didn’t. I think if EAA can send the right message that says you know what- we know that smoking is deadly so we’re not going to allow it, that would go a long way in promoting long term Aviation all by itself.
No Bill- this didn’t happen at Oshkosh. It was at the Minnesota State Fair. And yea- she basically can’t go anywhere that would expose her to 2nd hand smoke. That’s why I’m so passionate about the issue on top of the obvious health problems for everyone exposed and the fact it’s costing us 400 BILLION Dollars every year in otherwise totally unnecessary health care and lost productivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood
The other issue too is the Cigarettes of today are a completely different animal than the smokes that were around when I was a kid. Cigarette manufactures are losing their clientele both to the toxicity of their product and to people wising up. In an effort to combat this the manufacturers are lacing cigarettes with greater amounts of chemicals that are infinitely more addictive as well as infinitely more deadly. That’s what Hydrogen Cyanide and Benzene are doing in Cigarettes. If you can hook someone after trying Cigarettes just a few times, you’ve got a new customer to replace the one that died off. So the name of the game is addiction at any cost. Cigarettes back in the day had far less of these incredibly toxic chemicals but yet even in their own right, were highly deadly. Today’s Cigarette is a certain death sentence in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood
The Chemicals in the 2nd hand Smoke that she breathed in caused Full Cardiac Arrest. Her Lips turned Ice Blue. Her Face was Gun Metal Grey. EMT’s came and rushed her to the hospital where the Cardiology Team got her back up and running in 6 weeks. We can’t take her anywhere now where she might be exposed to 2nd hand smoke. Period. As you can imagine this makes things pretty hard. It was a watershed moment for our entire family.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood
I have never heard of that, is it like a allergy to nuts which can be that serious? It would be so hard to take her anywhere, for instance the Radison where I stayed has ash trays on the front porch and that is there smoking area. You get 2 or 3 of them puffing away and you have to walk through a cloud of smoke to enter. I think the Hilton is a bit like that, but has more doors to enter.
I wonder if you can and should carry an Epie pen for her or if you can slowly condition her to it. Its going to be really hard to never have any smoke anywhere, for instance I just got a whiff in my window at the traffic light, just enough to smell it.
I was on vacation recently and witnessed something similar. I wonder if it was the same issue
As long as people smoke in designated areas, I see no issue. It's their choice. I also know a lot of people complain about cigarette smell that stays on the smoker long after they smoked. As a vaper I have ho issue with that and the vapes I get from Nexus Smoke always smell nice.