OSH Arrival cut off

I tried to land at OSH on Thursday evening after the air show. This was a fiasco and I was unable to get in. First, the air show ran nearly 45 minutes late. Second, ATC refused to allow arrivals for 30 minutes to allow backed up departures off. Third, the C5 incident confused ATC and caused more delays. Finally, they closed the field for arrivals at the standard 8 PM despite all the delays in arrivals. Why? It is not dark until 9:30 PM. The delays were caused by ATC and the air show, not the pilots. It would be safer to allow the pilots risking their lives circling Rush Lake in close proximity to dozens of their friends to arrive at OSH instead of forcing them away to find another airport late in the evening. They may be low on fuel, they may be landing at an unfamiliar field at night, and FBOs may be closed. This really needs to be addressed in the future before someone gets hurt. I think the OSH arrival closure time needs to be flexible to reduce risk to arrivals. Your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by mach25

I tried to land at OSH on Thursday evening after the air show. This was a fiasco and I was unable to get in. First, the air show ran nearly 45 minutes late. Second, ATC refused to allow arrivals for 30 minutes to allow backed up departures off. Third, the C5 incident confused ATC and caused more delays. Finally, they closed the field for arrivals at the standard 8 PM despite all the delays in arrivals. Why? It is not dark until 9:30 PM. The delays were caused by ATC and the air show, not the pilots. It would be safer to allow the pilots risking their lives circling Rush Lake in close proximity to dozens of their friends to arrive at OSH instead of forcing them away to find another airport late in the evening. They may be low on fuel, they may be landing at an unfamiliar field at night, and FBOs may be closed. This really needs to be addressed in the future before someone gets hurt. I think the OSH arrival closure time needs to be flexible to reduce risk to arrivals. Your thoughts?

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Whether you're an arrival or a departure, you make a plan based on a published schedule and EAA needs to stick to the published schedule, even if it means truncating the airshow. I'd be happy moving the tower close to 8:30, but it doesn't need to be later than that, IMO. I would not make it "flexible" - that would lead to people basing their plans on a flexible (i.e. unpredictable) schedule, which isn't a great idea.

> I tried to land at OSH on Thursday evening after the air show. T

The airshows always go long - plan for it.

The airport is always closed to arrivals just after airshows - plan for it.

The NOTAM clearly says the airport closes at 8PM. It's always a hard close - plan for it.

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Originally Posted by mc20

> I tried to land at OSH on Thursday evening after the air show. T

The airshows always go long - plan for it.

The airport is always closed to arrivals just after airshows - plan for it.

The NOTAM clearly says the airport closes at 8PM. It's always a hard close - plan for it.

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Plus One.

I agree with most that the schedule should be adhered to and it's up to the pilots to adjust for their comfort level. The same should also go for EAA, the airshow is terribly orchestrated and needs some major fat trimming. It needs to end when it's supposed to end, if that means cutting an act then that's what needs to happen. I realize they have to balance profit with their roots but there should be more focus on getting the pilots and EAA members into the show over all else.

Air show operating within the prescribed NOTAM should be a given. Anything else is just not acceptable. A violation.

Thursday evening the tower (noticed while listening to the radio traffic) was not functioning smoothly. It was pretty rough. Guess the new Oshkosh controllers have to learn at some time. And they were only allowing departures for a long period of time. Seems to me that emphasis should be on arrivals later in the day, and departures early in the day. Or, balanced, as I've always thought it to be.

We can't run arrivals past 8pM for a very practical matter. It gets dark fast after 8PM. It's not safe to have aircraft moving in the pedestrian areas after dark. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE.
8PM gives a little cushion in the event of things like the C5 brake fire when people were on the ground but unable to taxi past the emergency.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

We can't run arrivals past 8pM for a very practical matter. It gets dark fast after 8PM. It's not safe to have aircraft moving in the pedestrian areas after dark. THIS WILL NOT CHANGE.
8PM gives a little cushion in the event of things like the C5 brake fire when people were on the ground but unable to taxi past the emergency.

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The other issue is the volunteers. How far into the evening is anyone interested in working??

We have volunteers working later. I typically can't leave until everybody checks in. We have volunteers doing stuff down for the later "fun flight" demos as well as the night airshows.

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Originally Posted by Grum.man

I agree with most that the schedule should be adhered to and it's up to the pilots to adjust for their comfort level. The same should also go for EAA, the airshow is terribly orchestrated and needs some major fat trimming. It needs to end when it's supposed to end, if that means cutting an act then that's what needs to happen. I realize they have to balance profit with their roots but there should be more focus on getting the pilots and EAA members into the show over all else.

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I agree, not to long ago the Airshows use to be done at 5-5:30pm. But it seems to me, starting around 7 years ago, the AirVenture convention has become more focused on catering to the folks that are camping overnight on the grounds or nearby. Extending activities later into the evening, to around 10:30 pm ish". Now its 6am to 10:30pm full tilt.

I guess they thought that the people camping on the grounds were getting bored after 5:30pm, so they extended the Airshow time a little and added other evening activities. Fun fly zone at ultralights runway, Theater in the woods, Fly in theater movie, night airshows etc.
Gotta give dem folks a bang for their buck.

Now after the Airshow, If you have to travel 30 to 45 miles to get to your bed, its 8-8:30pm by the time you shower & eat.

I remember when the exhibits closed at 5:00pm, and about a half hour later the Airshow was done.

Now a days by far the Best time to land at OSH is early mornings. SYL = Snooze You Lose :-)

I don't think it's so much catering to the campers but to the locals. By having evening activities (and unfortunately beer sales), they increase the attendance and revenues by people by having something to see on weekday evenings.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

I don't think it's so much catering to the campers but to the locals. By having evening activities (and unfortunately beer sales), they increase the attendance and revenues by people by having something to see on weekday evenings.

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+1. Locals, ticket purchases.

I think the airport could open earlier in the morning. It's light by 5:00am, I think, and only gets lighter for parking.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

I think the airport could open earlier in the morning. It's light by 5:00am, I think, and only gets lighter for parking.

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Because I want someone taxiing by my tent at 5:30 AM...

Not.

Well, they could park other than camping area for a while. (rather than miss the show for weather or whatever)
But plenty of vehicles were zooming past my tent at 5:00am (golf carts, dumpster trucks, etc) It is an airport.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

Well, they could park other than camping area for a while. (rather than miss the show for weather or whatever)
But plenty of vehicles were zooming past my tent at 5:00am (golf carts, dumpster trucks, etc) It is an airport.

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I'm all for workarounds that promote more attendance. The challenge is where to put any early arrivals on (say) Tuesday morning when the only open space on the field is the runway...

Well even if you had the manpower to open the field for early arrivals you just know it would be a matter of time before someone would insist on early departures too.

The goal this year was not to turn any planes away. They opened up another large South 40 section over the winter/spring. 5" in 24 hours from Friday/Saturday was the worst possible time for that to occur. It would have been interesting to see what capacity of planes could have made it in without the rain. Maybe next year.

We fortunately landed Friday morning around 9:30am, and setup in the 6th row of the North 40.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

Well, they could park other than camping area for a while. (rather than miss the show for weather or whatever)
But plenty of vehicles were zooming past my tent at 5:00am (golf carts, dumpster trucks, etc) It is an airport.

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The dumpsters get emptied at 4:15AM. That's my wakeup call.

The problem is there's not really any plane to park people backed up going to the parking/camping areas (there's really not much difference in most places).

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Originally Posted by bmckinney

The goal this year was not to turn any planes away. They opened up another large South 40 section over the winter/spring. 5" in 24 hours from Friday/Saturday was the worst possible time for that to occur. It would have been interesting to see what capacity of planes could have made it in without the rain. Maybe next year.

We fortunately landed Friday morning around 9:30am, and setup in the 6th row of the North 40.

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Actually, the goal was to not turn planes away by 2020. There's still too much improvement needed to be done to the field to open that up this year. Of course, what the EAA really did is "TURN NO MONSTER FAT CAT RV BUS DRIVER" away and parked RVs down all over the new south 40 parking area. I suspect this is because it generates no heat with the state police and highway department if you send airplanes away to some distant airport but they won't stand for the interstate being backed up with overflowing rvs.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

The dumpsters get emptied at 4:15AM. That's my wakeup call.

The problem is there's not really any plane to park people backed up going to the parking/camping areas (there's really not much difference in most places).

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I didn't mean when the airport is filled. I meant the time allowed for entry could be expanded so that less congestion would be encountered later. Also, an early morning arrival is more friendly to vintage with no radio. Actually the NOTAM recomendation is morning for NORDO. It could even revert to CTAF and no radio (tower closed) during 5:00- 7:30am.
Of course, ground volunteers would be needed.

To Flying Ron......don’t sleep in the dumpsters��������������
Agreed, that’s a pretty rude and early wake up call.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

Of course, what the EAA really did is "TURN NO MONSTER FAT CAT RV BUS DRIVER" away and parked RVs down all over the new south 40 parking area. I suspect this is because it generates no heat with the state police and highway department if you send airplanes away to some distant airport but they won't stand for the interstate being backed up with overflowing rvs.

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Wow. Where's that coming from? The EAA folks did the best they could to handle a non-stop incoming stream of RVs.

The local police didn't stand for public roads being lined with parked RVs, either, and demanded EAA clear 'em out. Many local oshkosh area parking lots were used.

I thought the EAA did a fantastic job dealing the hand mother nature dealt them in Camp Scholler. Why the snark and sarcasm about planes vs RVs? It sure seemed the EAA did as best they could with planes, too, but the airport didn't have lots of temporary holding areas for planes as the surrounding public roads provided (until the po-po cleared 'em out) for RVs.

Got that right mc20.
That was a monster front that marched across the state. Significant wind damage was done in many areas. Our cabin is 30 miles NW of OSH and got hit about mid morning. We lost power and it wasn’t restored until Wednesday. For a day and a half we could even get into town for all the trees and power lines down on the county highway.
EAA was lucky that the full brunt of the storms missed the field and had no significant facility damage or to aircraft.

No matter how you slice it.
There should be at least an hour intermission between the afternoon & evening acts, to let people eat supper and clean up.
The way it is now, the afternoon Airshow gets done around 6:30pm ish"
That gives you about 25 minutes to eat supper & clean-up, before the evening acts start.
For example: Theater in the Woods and Fun Fly Zone acts start at 7:00pm.

An Airshow that starts at 2:00pm and goes till 6:30pm ish" is a bit long and seems to drags on.
In years past they wouldn't launch the military jets until the end of the Airshow, keeping people there longer.
At least this year they launched the military jets earlier in the Airshow, probably because it was the Year of the Fighter.

There was one year when they had food trucks setup on Boeing plaza, so people could power slam junk food before the night Airshow.

Shaving an hour off the afternoon Airshow would not only benefit, the after Airshow arriving aircraft but also give people on the grounds a little time to recoil/reset. And albeit better digestion. Before the evening acts start.

Kinda like the old days when the whole family sat down together and ate supper at 5:30pm.

WF,
There was at least an hour break, probably closer to 2, on Monday between the afternoon airshow and the Fray band. I know that because the kegs at the nearby unnamed private residence weren't tapped until post airshow so we had plenty of time to pour down a few cold ones, wind our way back to HBC to grab our lawn chairs, then walk to Boeing square for the concert.

P.S.
I wanna know who planned for the F22 flyby to last through the band's entire first song?

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Originally Posted by mc20

he EAA did as best they could with planes, too, but the airport didn't have lots of temporary holding areas for planes as the surrounding public roads provided (until the po-po cleared 'em out) for RVs.

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They could have used the aircraft parking for aircraft rather than sending airplanes AWAY in contradiction to their own public policy.

THis is not the EXPERMENTAL MOTOR HOME ASSOCIATION.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

They could have used the aircraft parking for aircraft rather than sending airplanes AWAY in contradiction to their own public policy.

THis is not the EXPERMENTAL MOTOR HOME ASSOCIATION.

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I wonder if the RV's parked down there had prepaid for their campsites? Not that I'm OK parking motor homes in aircraft parking locations, but I bet EAA wasn't at all interested in issuing refunds... No bucks, no Buck Rogers, and all of that.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

They could have used the aircraft parking for aircraft rather than sending airplanes AWAY in contradiction to their own public policy.

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Did you ever run out of spaces in the far south 40? When I was down there some time after Vintage reopened there were 6-8 empty rows before the motor homes.

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Originally Posted by MEdwards

Did you ever run out of spaces in the far south 40? When I was down there some time after Vintage reopened there were 6-8 empty rows before the motor homes.

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We were closed to arrivals and those were ga rows as well. Ev wa definitely given preference over aircraft.

First, serious rain events that adversely effects the grounds only occur about every ten years. It’s highly unlikely any significant investment to mitigate the issues would made.
If the grounds can’t support vehicular traffic then EAA should have a plan with WiDOT to have more and better signage in place along the 41 corridor. Starting at 30-40 miles or more to the south for sure. This should include status of parking for daily parking. If Camp Scholler grounds are compromised then they could wave off the RVs and prevent the stack up onto 41. Getting to Fond du Lac and discovering the grounds are closed is too late due to the limited number of exits.
I do think EAA works hard to make the best of a bad situation for all. They sometimes don’t do a good job sharing their reasoning and the optics of looking in from the outside in can be poor.

They would have to be electronic signs for updated information, and those signs can’t display much information. I think a better idea is to use EAA Radio to get the information out. In today’s connected world, it can be heard on the internet, so most people can hear it on cell phones if they’re outside AM FM range.
I think it would be great if EAA Radio could get the capability to give traffic and parking lot status about every 15 minutes from 7 to 10 AM too. Even in normal conditions, I’d like to know what parking lot to go to.

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Originally Posted by PaulDow

They would have to be electronic signs for updated information, and those signs can’t display much information. I think a better idea is to use EAA Radio to get the information out. In today’s connected world, it can be heard on the internet, so most people can hear it on cell phones if they’re outside AM FM range.
I think it would be great if EAA Radio could get the capability to give traffic and parking lot status about every 15 minutes from 7 to 10 AM too. Even in normal conditions, I’d like to know what parking lot to go to.

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A text system like they use for aircraft arrivals would be a good solution too and wouldn't require much in the way of resources on EAA's end.

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Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright

A text system like they use for aircraft arrivals would be a good solution too and wouldn't require much in the way of resources on EAA's end.

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I was getting texts about the condition of camp all week.

Texting and driving?????
Don’t know about Wisconsin but that’s illegal in Georgia but absolutely agree there are many and better ways for EAA to push info out real-time that need to be utilized.

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

Texting and driving?????
Don’t know about Wisconsin but that’s illegal in Georgia but absolutely agree there are many and better ways for EAA to push info out real-time that need to be utilized.

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Perhaps a passenger could read the text. Perhaps you could read the text at your next stop. There are lots of options.