Road Rage, Air Rage

By air rage I dont mean passengers vs crew on an airline, but a incindent like road rage that occurs between pilots.
Seems daily in the news is a horrible story of drivers going nuts often fatal and moslty about nothing. Last week an adult man shot a girl in the head, a high school senior honor student, just as both were entering a freeway on ramp. Today I read a N C man pointing his gun at a couple who were just passing his car, and the guy is a PREACHER, of all things.
We arent usually in that close contact in airplanes and dont have a gun in our hand, but there was a similar anger case,no guns, on another web site a few years back in Florida, older man was making a straight in landing, Baron or K maybe, at uncontrolled field , and on a 2 mile final a student pilot on downwind turned final in front of him, The straight in pilot thought everyone should get out of his way and theatened to attack the kid in the Cessna in the web site and I think on Unicom.

Has the world forgotten manners and sense of proportion? Will what happens if the road rage spills over to airplorts ? Hope it doesnt get to a crowded place like Airventure.

Many people should not own guns. Many people proclaim to be Christian who fail miserably at it.

Guns are not permitted on the grounds (not saying they don't end up in there but if security finds you with one even benignly, you will find yourself a guess of the Winnebago County sheriff's office). What is your point?

In the identical frame of reference for road rage, air rage in GA is a non-existent nonsense concept. In commercial aviation, air rage is becoming all to familiar. With respect to those packing at Oshkosh, the prohibition against carrying guns is not always adhered to by attendees. A few years ago a shocking thread on this very subject on this forum was vitriolic and hostile. Quite a few posters with permits for concealed carry freely admitted to carrying guns on the grounds.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

In commercial aviation, air rage is becoming all to familiar.

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Just curious, since I haven't heard of any incidents... got any examples? I know in GA it's near "nonsense" level. I say "near", becuase of course pilots are people, and people are different, and some get carried away.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

With respect to those packing at Oshkosh, the prohibition against carrying guns is not always adhered to by attendees. A few years ago a shocking thread on this very subject on this forum was vitriolic and hostile. Quite a few posters with permits for concealed carry freely admitted to carrying guns on the grounds.

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There's nothing like a discussion about pretty much anything to do with firearms to bring out the absolute worst in people on both sides. Some are just looking for something to fight about.

My topic was not at all about people "packing at Oshkosh" or anthing about guns in airplanes. .My example of airplane rage from the pilot who long straight in final conflicted with the Cessna already in the pattern had nothing to do with guns. Just the anger of the older man who threathened to attack the student pilot. No guns involved , just irrational anger.

If someone wants to write about guns at Oshkosh please do it on your own topic,not this one.

I've experienced one case, heard about a second.

About 20 years ago, I was in the back seat of a 210, flown by an acquaintance. This was at a small semi-private get-together at a Midwest airport. The airport had only a runway with no parallel taxiway. I'd known the pilot for a while; he had a short fuse (BWB, for those in the know).

My pilot spent about 25 minutes buzzing the countryside at high speed. He called on the 45 on the return, but someone didn't realize how fast he was coming in that 210 and started to back-taxi. My pilot got on the radio and started screaming at the other guy. Went on for about five minutes. I was embarrassed, and I know the guy in the front right seat was, too.

About ten years later, the pilot died in an accident in a hired gun homebuilt he'd bought. No way to know for sure, but with the circumstances, I think his temper was a contributor.

The other case was rumor only, connected with two local aircraft having a midair. Story goes that they had a near-midair first, then turned around "to see who that idiot was."

Me, if *I* have a similar case, I scoot out of the area as fast as I can, preferably painting over my N-Number on the way.

Ron Wanttaja

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Originally Posted by DaleB

Just curious, since I haven't heard of any incidents... got any examples? .

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I was referring to numerous reported examples of passengers engaged in bad and/or violent behaviour aboard in-flight airliners who were then subdued by crew and other passengers.

Oh, those. Yeah, I was thinking about pilot vs. pilot, not corporate monolith vs. sardine.

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Originally Posted by DaleB

There's nothing like a discussion about pretty much anything to do with firearms to bring out the absolute worst in people on both sides. Some are just looking for something to fight about.

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I added my two cents on gun issues in an aviation board several years ago. The last post in the thread was a nasty flame about how wrong I was (puts back of hand to forehead, and cries, "Oh, woe is me!").

Two things about the flame: First, it was the person's first post to that board.

Second, he posted his response EIGHT MONTHS after the last previous comment in the thread.

The guy had apparently been searching for comments contrary to his beliefs, no matter how old, so he could post his opposition.

There's some sad, sad, people out there.

Ron " 'Your flame has convinced me that my stance was mistaken,' said no one ever" Wanttaja

Well as a new sport pilot and having flown out of Sporty's (hotdog Saturday) I can say I have had my share of fun in the pattern and on short final, no point in getting upset; heck we all make mistakes it is just a matter of learning and moving on. I will say my most interesting in my short 36 hours of flight time was flying in to Brown Co (GEO) and having people on bicycles riding down the runway during my landing and again during a second takeoff. Not sure what they were thinking, but heck I guess it was the nicest place to ride near their house.

none

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

Rwanttaja, could you start your own topic if you want to talk about guns, and airplanes,this is not that one.

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With all due respect:

1. I was not the person who introduced the subject of guns to this topic.
2. When I did mention them, it was in the context of, essentially, "Forum Rage." I deliberately did not include any details of the gun debate that led to the rage itself, to preclude inciting those who would wish to engage in those kinds of discussions.
3. So far, I am the ONLY one who has provided a first-person account of being present at a General Aviation Air Rage incident.

Ron "And this is the thanks I get" Wanttaja

Maybe we should talk about "forum rage", since there seems to be no real evidence of an "air rage" problem.

:D

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Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

...similar anger case,no guns, on another web site a few years back in Florida, older man was making a straight in landing, Baron or K maybe, at uncontrolled field, and on a 2 mile final a student pilot on downwind turned final in front of him, The straight in pilot thought everyone should get out of his way and theatened to attack the kid in the Cessna in the web site and I think on Unicom...

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Good points there. An approach category A or B aircraft isn't even in the traffic pattern airspace when two miles out. (FAA Order 7400.2K Figure 6-3-9) And from the AIM, "c. The following terminology for the variouscomponents of a traffic pattern has been adopted asstandard for use by control towers and pilots....5. Final approach. A flight path in thedirection of landing along the extended runwaycenterline from the base leg to the runway."

In the traffic pattern airspace and from base leg to the runway. Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by DaleB

Maybe we should talk about "forum rage", since there seems to be no real evidence of an "air rage" problem.

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You are an icky person, and I demand that Hal ban you for life!http://www.wanttaja.com/pilot_beer4.gif

The extent of my qualifications to discuss psychiatric issues is listed in very, very fine print at the bottom of my engineering diploma. But, of course, that hasn't stopped me before.

There's a lot of factors involved. They vary by circumstance, which is why it's not so easy to generate a "Unified Field Theory" about Rage cases.

"Road Rage" cases, I think, are driven by driver's sense of isolation, and the perception of their being in a "bubble" that is inviolate. Having someone cut them off brings it sharply to their attention that this is not the case. Some don't react very well to that.

"Air Rage" cases (airline ones) are probably just pure frustration. People rush to get to the airport, stand in line to drop off their bags, stand in the TSA line to get poked and prodded, sit in a crowded terminal fretting about making their connections, then get packed cheek to jowl with a bunch of strangers. With some aspect of it goes non-linear, some don't react to it very well.

"Forum Rage" is typically different, I believe. Where the previous two involve people who are under pressure who undergo a triggering event, "Forum Rage" builds. It is, again, a "bubble" condition, where a person has a mental image of how the world should be and is outraged to find others that have different world-views. Unlike the others, though, this is typically something that builds, rather than being an instant loss of temper. Though with "hot button" issues like guns, it doesn't take long to get some folks wound up.

"GA Pilot Rage" (we need a snazzier term) is probably a combination of all the above. Our "bubbles" are not just related to dinged sheet metal; our very lives are at risk. Planning and executing a flight can be complex, and extremely frustrating when some element goes wrong.

The "Forum Rage" tie-in is there, too. Many pilots are incredibly pedantic. Just look at the massive arguments that occur about interpreting the FARs. In a high-stress flying situation (again, lives at risk), someone behaving other than the observer's personal world-view might really trigger a sense of outrage.

The case I witnessed had a lot of factors in it. The pilot was highly educated (doctorate in physics, IIRC) and wealthy. He owned a lot of toys (in the big-boy, expensive toy categories), but the impression I got was that these were more to impress other people. Surest way to be friends with him was to feed his ego. He'd brag about the value of his toys, but like many rich people was an incredible penny-pincher.

He also had a substance-abuse problem. I'm not much of a drinker, but was rather taken aback when I stopped by his hotel room that weekend and saw the large portable bar he's brought with him. This wasn't Utah, this was Missouri...liquor was easily available. But he lugged that bar in the 210 wherever he flew.

It should be said that no one witnessed him flying under the influence. He either stayed sober to fly (my guess), or he knew how to hide it.

However, when he crashed, the autopsy found two prescription drugs in his system, both liable to impair him. He also had other prescription drugs, which hadn't been reported on his FAA medical. He'd had a back injury and resulting chronic pain for years. It's quite likely that the pain made him more sensitive to disturbances in his world-view. He had some personality clashes towards the end of his life that people who had been his friends; the pain, and perhaps the drugs, was likely an aspect of it. One mutual acquaintance was married to an MD, he told me the pilot tried to coerce his wife into writing painkiller prescriptions for him, and dropped them completely when she refused.

No accident has a single cause; it's always a string of events which, if broken, would mitigate or even completely avoid the event. We don't know what his mood was the morning he died. He did have a bit of get-home-itis, with a pending meeting. But he and his wife climbed into their recently-purchased hired-gun-built high performance aircraft.

What we do know is that he took off, and when they climbed past 500 feet, the canopy popped open and stuff from the baggage compartment started coming out.

The type of plane he was flying could fly with its front-hinged canopy ajar. But the plane rolled slightly to the left and descended into the ground.

What happened in those few seconds? We don't know. While his wife survived, she doesn't remember the accident.

But... we can speculate. This was a pilot with a short fuse, and a massive ego. Did he fail to lock the canopy? Or was there actually a problem with the latch? If so, he probably would have been outraged at the builder. Either way, most observers would assume it was his fault.

He would have been burning with embarrassment, a hard thing for a man with an ego his size. He wasn't going to fly back and see everyone snickering. My guess is that he twisted right in his seat, looked up and grabbed the canopy, trying to get it down and latched so he wouldn't have to turn around and land. Knowing him, knowing the substance issues, knowing his temper...well, I think he lost it. I think controlling the airplane was the last thing on his mind, and he screamed imprecations at the canopy all the way to ground contact. Witnesses didn't report any attempt at recovery prior to impact.

We can't say for sure that this was an "Air Rage" case. But as I mentioned, I'd witnessed him in such a state before. Sure, there wasn't another airplane around for him to blame this time. But the same factors may have been at play.

Most of us aviation nuts have probably seen a two-man play called "Billy Bishop Goes to War." There's a song in there that speaks to the need stay focussed on what you're doing, if you want to live. When I replace the word "Fight" with "Fly", you've got a pretty good mantra for ALL pilots. I often hum it on the way to my plane:

"So when you fly, stay as calm as the ocean
and watch what's going on behind your shoulder.
You know the air's not the place for deep emotion
and maybe...you'll get....
.... a little older."

Ron "Off to fight the Hun" Wanttaja

Ron, I always appreciate the pragmatic yet data-driven approach to your posts. If you're going to be at Convention, I'd like to stop by and shake your hand.

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

"Forum Rage" is typically different, I believe. Where the previous two involve people who are under pressure who undergo a triggering event, "Forum Rage" builds. It is, again, a "bubble" condition, where a person has a mental image of how the world should be and is outraged to find others that have different world-views. Unlike the others, though, this is typically something that builds, rather than being an instant loss of temper. Though with "hot button" issues like guns, it doesn't take long to get some folks wound up.

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OK, that does it. Blunderbusses and balloons at dawn!

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Originally Posted by CarlOrton

Ron, I always appreciate the pragmatic yet data-driven approach to your posts. If you're going to be at Convention, I'd like to stop by and shake your hand.

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Thanks, Carl. Love to meet you, but I rarely come to the Convention. Now that I'm retired, though, I might make it next year or so.

Ron Wanttaja

Trying to get back to the original point, I don't think we see a lot of "air rage" for some pretty simple reasons:

1) People flying airplanes know that collisions while in flight are really, really, really bad.

2) Airplanes are expensive. It's one thing to bump another's car at a stop light; it's quite another to bump another airplane.

3) Very few really impulsive, emotional people are pilots. The training and requirements for pilots really weeds out the super impatient hot heads.

4) The demographics of the GA pilot population has aged. Would I have a conversation with a pilot that did something stupid in the pattern in front of me? Yep. And I have. But my brawling days are behind me, as it is for most of the folks behind a stick.

Over the years, I've either encountered or was a part of situations that could have developed into a "GA air rage" incident, given the opportunity. Heck, I've been the one at fault in a couple of them! But the only one I've seen which appeared to be a full-fledged case of "GA air rage" occurred at my airplane's home-drome, KGXY (Greeley, CO), just a couple of years ago.

GXY has incredibly benign weather most of the time, other than it's pretty hot in the summer. The runways are in a lazy T set-up, 10/28 (5801') and 17/35 (10,000'). http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1707/00325AD.PDF It's non-towered, so we're on our own. Management has decreed that 35 is the calm wind runway, but nobody follows that, so usually 10 is the one in use on calm days. But people land the way they want to, and existing traffic by law isn't "in charge" of "the active"--there is no "active".

On the day of the event, a Sunday, an Eagle (aerobatic biplane) from elsewhere was doing touch and goes and stop and goes on 17--good guess that it was a student and instructor. They were in that pattern when I drove up and still there as I taxied out. If there was any wind, I couldn't tell that it was much, but the AWOS said there was maybe 2-3 knots from the south. There's a large run-up pad near the taxiway to 35, which I used before heading on north to the approach end of 17. This is what I heard over the radio, as best I can recall, starting from when I turned on my radios:

The Eagle pilot had consistently announced pattern positions to 17. He had just announced on base for 17.
310: Greeley traffic, twin Cessna xxx is on a 12 mile final for 35.
Eagle: Cessna twin, be advised that current traffic is using 17.
310: Greeley traffic, twin Cessna xxx is on a 10 mile final for 35.

The Eagle continued in the pattern, announcing his position on crosswind, downwind, base and final. Also meanwhile, the wind had picked up a bit, more definitely favoring 17.

310: Greeley traffic, twin Cessna xxx is on a 5 mile final for 35.
Eagle: Cessna twin, the wind is favoring 17, and traffic is using 17.
310: Lookee here, sonny, this here is a big ol' 310, and I'm gonna use 35. You get your little toy outta my way, or we can meet inside the terminal and settle this like men.
Eagle: Eagle xxx is departing the pattern.

The 310 landed. As I taxied from the run-up pad, I saw that it was at the high speed taxiway that is for 17 traffic, a bit whopper-jawed but off the runway. The pilot and his passenger were just stepping off the wing. I pulled onto that taxiway and shut down to see if I could help. As I started to walk from my airplane to his, I was greeted with,
"What the h--l do you want?"
"I was just checking to see if you needed help."
"Nah, the goddam tire went flat. I don't need your f-----g help!"

I got back in my airplane, cranked up, and as I continued taxiing, I overheard on the radio:
310: Greeley Unicom, twin Cessna xxx, I've got a flat tire. Send someone out to fix it."
Unicom (in an incredibly sugary sweet voice): I'm sorry sir, but it's Sunday, and there aren't any mechanics on the field today.
310: Then what the h--l am I supposed to do with my goddam airplane?
Unicom (same sweet voice): I don't know sir, but I'll be glad to send our ramp person out to pick you up.
310: Never mind, we'll f----g walk!

So I took off, and an hour or so later, I returned. The 310 was still there. After putting my airplane away, I went into the terminal and asked the girl at the desk whatever happened to the nasty guy with the 310. She told me that he must have phoned someone, because he and his passenger had just left in a car. She said he was still cussing a blue streak as they went out the door.

The next afternoon, I was there, and the 310 was gone. But several times I've thought that he got his comeuppance--probably landed hot with a little tailwind, slid his tires trying to make that taxiway, and that's why his tire blew.

Cary

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

You are an icky person, and I demand that Hal ban you for life!http://www.wanttaja.com/pilot_beer4.gif

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Now I'm really confused. I didn't think we'd met, so how did you know? :)

http://www.wanttaja.com/pilot_beer4.gif indeed, especially if that's a nice dark porter or stout in there... if it's an IPA we might see some beer rage.

You're spot on with the "forum rage" observations. Take a bunch of uptight, pedantic, detail oriented Type A people, remove the face to face interaction and you have a recipe for the sort of squabbling seen on one or two other aviation related forums. I no longer even read most of them, because I know and like some of the people on them -- but they come off as complete jerks a lot of the time on line.

There may be one other factor in play here. If someone were to do something in the air that really torques someone else, they'd have to land, taxi, shut down and get out of the plane before confronting him about it. That's a lot of time, and lot of tasks that will require concentration on the task at hand, before anyone can go make a fool of themselves. Chances are it's enough time and distraction to let things calm down a bit.

And they want us to have FLYING cars? Ay Caramba!

Bullies everywhere. In the air, on the ground and on the internet. Why we have kids like we do today. The parents taught them this bully attitude. Some call it rage, hate, and many other names. I call it being a bully.

Tony

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

And the biggest, most needy lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Monkey see, monkey do. Not just the parents doing the teaching, far from it. Who would of ever thunk it?

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Want cheese with that whine? Cut the politics would be nice.

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Originally Posted by DaleB

Now I'm really confused. I didn't think we'd met, so how did you know? :)

http://www.wanttaja.com/pilot_beer4.gif indeed, especially if that's a nice dark porter or stout in there... if it's an IPA we might see some beer rage.

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My wife and I were at a local Brew Pub a few years back, sharing a pitcher of Porter. A man came up to me and said, "Where did you FIND a woman that likes dark beer??????!"

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Originally Posted by DaleB

You're spot on with the "forum rage" observations. Take a bunch of uptight, pedantic, detail oriented Type A people, remove the face to face interaction and you have a recipe for the sort of squabbling seen on one or two other aviation related forums. I no longer even read most of them, because I know and like some of the people on them -- but they come off as complete jerks a lot of the time on line.

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We can say something insulting in person, but our body language, smile, etc. lets the target know you're only kidding. A lot of folks don't understand how dependent we are on these non-verbal cues, and say things as they would if they were in person, but without the non-verbal cues, it really comes off hostile.

The other factor is the isolation from any consequences. A person might not get insulting in person, but the Internet isolates users from any physical retribution.

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Originally Posted by DaleB

There may be one other factor in play here. If someone were to do something in the air that really torques someone else, they'd have to land, taxi, shut down and get out of the plane before confronting him about it. That's a lot of time, and lot of tasks that will require concentration on the task at hand, before anyone can go make a fool of themselves. Chances are it's enough time and distraction to let things calm down a bit.

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I think we'll find most of the GA Air Rage cases play out over radios, which combines the anonymity of the internet with a greater sense of immediate response.

But I think something else is factored in: Many pilots have a heightened sense of entitlement. To be able to afford most GA aircraft, they have to be fairly successful, fairly wealthy individuals (except for EAAers of course, who are all dirt poor and proud of it). This does tend to make people think that things should be solely the way they want it. It was an aspect of both Cary's and my stories.

Ron Wanttaja

Doing glider operations at a GA airport sometimes creates rage opportunity.
A glider just can't simply decide to do a one mile final.

Mike M, news flash for ya: A description of reprehensible behaviour belonging to a political figure, does NOT make it a political statement. I trust you will understand the difference and the nuance.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

Mike M, news flash for ya: A description of reprehensible behaviour belonging to a political figure, does NOT make it a political statement. I trust you will understand the difference and the nuance.

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Regardless, that commentary isn't aviation related and is inflammatory. Why post it here?

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Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright

Regardless, that commentary isn't aviation related and is inflammatory. Why post it here?

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Thought it was relevant in response to Post #23 i.e. the genesis of permissive bullying behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Floatsflyer

Thought it was relevant in response to Post #23 i.e. the genesis of permissive bullying behaviour.

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The trouble is, if a proponent of the politician objects, it leads to escalating back-and-forth arguments that quickly depart the desired purpose of the discussion. No one really wants that, here, I think, and Hal will clamp down.

"I'm a peaceful man at heart, but I'm sick and tired of all these hits. I hit Krako, Krako hits Tepo, Tepo hits me....We can't get anything done."
- Star Trek, "A Piece of the Action"

Ron Wanttaja

Hitler!

(I win, according to Godwin's Law)

I got P.O.d on the radio at my home base airport -- uncontrolled E16 -- one time in my C-150 and used a few choice expletives over the radio when I nearly collided with a C172 doing pattern work. I thought he had cut in front of me and ignored my radio calls. An airplane appeared about 30 feet underneath me on final approach to RWY 32. He never saw me. I saw him at the last few seconds. I guess I was a bit annoyed that I nearly died in a horrible flaming wreck. I filed a NASA report on the incident. I also went to the airport manager and listened to the recording of the radio transmissions. After an investigation, it turns out the other guy did nothing wrong. We both were transmitting at the same time and cancelled each other out on the radio. If anything, I was more at fault than the other guy. He did one of those LOOOOONG downwind legs that students often do, and I probably cut in front of HIM oblivious of his presence. BTW, immediately after the incident, the other guy landed and came over to talk to me and shook my hand and apologized if he did anything wrong.

Mark congrats on reviewing in your own head and concluding that maybe you were more at fault. It just seems so rare these days that anyone ever does this, rather they just put all blame on the other guy. Great for him that he came over to smoooth it over after you landed.
And if all blame is on the other guy, then no one ever needs to change what they are doing and nothing gets improved.
I have a friend that was actually a bad pilot, he owned a STOL airplane, even though he didnt fly into short strips and yet I rode with him once when he almost overshot a 6000 foot runway, As we passed about the 4500 point still 15 feet in the air, I looked out the window at the lineman looking up in amazment as we passed him with the pilot still refusing to go around, even after I suggested that. He finallly got it down and stopped in the last 500 ft.Surprisingly he was a skilled carpenter.
When I tried to talk to him after the fligth, saying we were too fast and should have gone around, he just brushed it off and said the airplane was so great it couild land in 500 ft. He's one guy who really was below average as a pilot, I dont think I ever flew with him again.