Want to see 87% warbirds using the P & W R-985 "Wasp Jr." 450 HP radial engine?

I am in the process of planning to introduce 87% kits of the T-28 "Trojan" military trainer, using the P & W 450 HP "Wasp Jr." radial engine (same as used in the PT-17 Stearman and Dehavilland Beaver), in composite form. That will be followed by the F4U Corsair, Sea Fury, FW-190 Focke Wulf, Japanese Zero, AT-6 "Texan", and others. This is kind of a market survey. Any ideas on how popular these might be? The R-985 can be had for around $43,000, and, apparently, are readily available. I will try to have the first T-28, even if not flyable yet, at Oshkosh next year. Any input would be appreciated.

Interesting concept, I have toyed with a semi-scale T-28C running the Vedenyev M-14PF but did not go past conceptual design. The Trojan is a cool plane but not everyobody knows/agrees that, so market reaction might not be huge. Everyone knows and loves the Corsair but a much more complicated design. Sea Fury is another great one but probably also an acquired taste, the T-6, Zero and FW-190 would be I think popular.

Might be interested in helping on this.

'Gimp

There is a reason radial engines and radial powered aircraft prices have gone down, interest is on the way down for anything with a round engine. 2 of the aircraft I own are radials and I see myself as a caretaker and do not expect there to be any market for the sale of these when the time comes to hang up the license. Just took at the number that are being donated to, and then later sold by, museums. As the years go by there will be plenty of radial engine aircraft available for those, like myself, that will invest the time and money to fly them, but our numbers are dwindling rapidly.

There have already been some very exciting aircraft designed to use the modern fuel injected Russian radial with impressive performance numbers but sales have not materialized.

At a time when 100k will buy you an excellent FLYING RV8 which will travel faster than my A36, fly formation and aerobatics better than 95% of pilots are capable of, and do it on 180HP for a fraction of the operating costs I would question if there is a market for the aircraft you are contemplating.

Your efforts to determine the market are admirable, now don't shoot the messenger.

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Originally Posted by Jim Clark

There is a reason radial engines and radial powered aircraft prices have gone down, interest is on the way down for anything with a round engine. 2 of the aircraft I own are radials and I see myself as a caretaker and do not expect there to be any market for the sale of these when the time comes to hang up the license. Just took at the number that are being donated to, and then later sold by, museums. As the years go by there will be plenty of radial engine aircraft available for those, like myself, that will invest the time and money to fly them, but our numbers are dwindling rapidly.

There have already been some very exciting aircraft designed to use the modern fuel injected Russian radial with impressive performance numbers but sales have not materialized.

At a time when 100k will buy you an excellent FLYING RV8 which will travel faster than my A36, fly formation and aerobatics better than 95% of pilots are capable of, and do it on 180HP for a fraction of the operating costs I would question if there is a market for the aircraft you are contemplating.

Your efforts to determine the market are admirable, now don't shoot the messenger.

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I just think the military duplication of it, especially the Corsair, Zero, FW-190, is a novelty that people who can afford it would be intrigued by. There are people who build the 50% size of these, so if a larger radial is used I think there would be some appeal for the 87% sizes. The RV-8 has a pretty small cockpit. The RV-8 can only carry two people, where the A36 can carry six. Thanks for your input.

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Originally Posted by AcroGimp

Interesting concept, I have toyed with a semi-scale T-28C running the Vedenyev M-14PF but did not go past conceptual design. The Trojan is a cool plane but not everyobody knows/agrees that, so market reaction might not be huge. Everyone knows and loves the Corsair but a much more complicated design. Sea Fury is another great one but probably also an acquired taste, the T-6, Zero and FW-190 would be I think popular.

Might be interested in helping on this.

'Gimp

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Ok, might want your help. I think I may be able to do a Kickstarter campaign (www.kickstarter.com) to get funding to at least build the airframe and add the real landing gear and engine later, to display at airshows to attract investors and future customers.

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Originally Posted by starjetpilot

I am in the process of planning to introduce 87% kits of the T-28 "Trojan" military trainer, using the P & W 450 HP "Wasp Jr." radial engine (same as used in the PT-17 Stearman and Dehavilland Beaver), in composite form. That will be followed by the F4U Corsair, Sea Fury, FW-190 Focke Wulf, Japanese Zero, AT-6 "Texan", and others. This is kind of a market survey. Any ideas on how popular these might be? The R-985 can be had for around $43,000, and, apparently, are readily available. I will try to have the first T-28, even if not flyable yet, at Oshkosh next year. Any input would be appreciated.

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I'd love to see such a beast become available.

Some comments:
- I think it was the Lionheart which used an R-985, and I believe that aircraft is either dead, or severely languishing. It would be instructive to learn from that group what issues might arise.
- Over the past several years the R-985 is getting more expensive, not less. Outright prices now hover between $45k and $55k, where they were around $30k just 8-10 years ago.
- It's not so much the engine which is expensive and difficult to source, but the prop, oil system, and exhaust which make these un-economical to acquire. A prop and exhaust could easily top $18k.

Nobody really knows how popular they might be. You could do focus groups and all sorts of market research, but the end result would be anyone's guess. What would you consider popular? Two or three airplanes? Ten or twelve, hundreds? Best to define success first and shoot for that.

Ok, maybe I will switch to produce the Mustang, Spitfire, P-38, Warhawk types with aluminum-block V-10s.

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Originally Posted by starjetpilot

Ok, maybe I will switch to produce the Mustang, Spitfire, P-38, Warhawk types with aluminum-block V-10s.

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Don't get me wrong, anything with an R-985 on the front or mounted on the wings is a great machine!

I checked and 87% of a T-28 would weigh in at over 5,500 pounds, and an 87% Corsair would be over 7,500 pounds - pretty serious airplane tonnage! For reference, a Beech 18 with 2 R-985's weighs in at around 6,500 pounds...

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Originally Posted by Jeffsunzeri

Don't get me wrong, anything with an R-985 on the front or mounted on the wings is a great machine!

I checked and 87% of a T-28 would weigh in at over 5,500 pounds, and an 87% Corsair would be over 7,500 pounds - pretty serious airplane tonnage! For reference, a Beech 18 with 2 R-985's weighs in at around 6,500 pounds...

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Why would an 87% scale airplane weigh 87% of what the full size aircraft weighs? Linear dimensions scale linearly, but area, weight, volume, etc, do not.

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Originally Posted by Matt Gonitzke

Why would an 87% scale airplane weigh 87% of what the full size aircraft weighs? Linear dimensions scale linearly, but area, weight, volume, etc, do not.

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Well then what does the 87% refer to if not one of area or volume? My point of course is that anywhere near 87% of the prototype is going to be a large aircraft.

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Originally Posted by Jeffsunzeri

Well then what does the 87% refer to if not one of area or volume? My point of course is that anywhere near 87% of the prototype is going to be a large aircraft.

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Linear dimensions. Length, height, and wingspan.

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Originally Posted by starjetpilot

I am in the process of planning to introduce 87% kits of the T-28 "Trojan" military trainer, using the P & W 450 HP "Wasp Jr." radial engine (same as used in the PT-17 Stearman and Dehavilland Beaver), in composite form. That will be followed by the F4U Corsair, Sea Fury, FW-190 Focke Wulf, Japanese Zero, AT-6 "Texan", and others. This is kind of a market survey. Any ideas on how popular these might be? The R-985 can be had for around $43,000, and, apparently, are readily available. I will try to have the first T-28, even if not flyable yet, at Oshkosh next year. Any input would be appreciated.

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Here's a link to an 82% Corsair, also using the R-985:

http://www.corsair82.com/

What do you have going for you that others who have tried this in the past didn't? With few exceptions, all have failed the test of time. Either the market wasn't there or they had some serious technical issues.

Automotive engine conversions also have a terrible track record. I like the idea of the 985 or Russian radial over an auto conversion.

Some of them look better than others as well.

Thunder Wings
War Aircraft Replicas
Jurca
Papa 51
Titan
Fighter Escort Wings
Venture
Cameron
Stewart
Loehle
Campbell/Supermarine
???????

And of course there are some one-off examples.

Personally, I don't think the T-28 is a good choice for a replica.

Take a look at the Radial Rocket and Murphy Moose. Both great aircraft introduced using the M-14P but now using flat 6 cyl engines. You have a very small niche market who like/want radials whether in a replica or new design.

I'm working on a 75% Corsair design using an M-14P. It's my dream project because I love the Corsair. I may not live long enough to actually get it built but if I do I have no illusions of being able to market it - at least not to make any money from it.

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Originally Posted by Jeffsunzeri

Don't get me wrong, anything with an R-985 on the front or mounted on the wings is a great machine!

I checked and 87% of a T-28 would weigh in at over 5,500 pounds, and an 87% Corsair would be over 7,500 pounds - pretty serious airplane tonnage! For reference, a Beech 18 with 2 R-985's weighs in at around 6,500 pounds...

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There was an article on a 87% Stuka in a 1964 issue of SA. The builder was from MS. I later saw him do an aerobatic show at NAS Pensacola. Fantastic flyer. It was powered by a 4 cyl Lyc.

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Originally Posted by Bob Dingley

There was an article on a 87% Stuka in a 1964 issue of SA. The builder was from MS. I later saw him do an aerobatic show at NAS Pensacola. Fantastic flyer. It was powered by a 4 cyl Lyc.

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About those auto conversions, Titan Aircraft is having quite the success with the Suzuki and Honda V6 conversions in their T51 kits. I have not heard any reports from the Supermarine builders but the GM LS V8 they use is doing quite well also according to designer and owner of Supermarine.

The Market would be larger if the costs for the Replicas could be brought to within affordable, most pilots that want to be the next Ace can only afford the 20 to 70g range and that does impact the market availability for kit makers not to mention the performance capability. What with the ever expanding costs of everything, it will keep the average pilot flying Pipers and Cessna's and turning them into P51's and Corsairs in their minds.

JMHO and .02$ worth

That Stuka is now in Maine I think or somewhere in the Northwest. Another was built but crashed from not refueling the tanks before flying.