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Hi all,
I'm curious if there is an ultralight instructor in SW Missouri/the Ozarks? I took a few regular lessons in a Cessna years ago and I'm ready to buy an ultralight and seek training. The closest I could find via Google was Bob Ackerman in Columbia but didn't know if there was someone closer to Springfield, MO. Thanks!
Brian
Training in an ultralight has been outlawed by the FAA. These are gone. No more ultralight training. You must train in something bigger then jump into an ultralight. Its the way they want it done. No transition training for ultralights, you must train in something hundreds of pound heaver and fast.
Good luck.
Tony
Brian/Tony
I believe you can, check this link out
http://www.usua.org/Instructors/safetyandtraining.htm
One place to try and locate an instructor is the list of sport pilot instructors listed on the EAA web site, www.sportpilot.org/instructors Ideally try to work with a CFI that is knowledgeable about the flight characteristics of the single seater you intend to purchase. What are you thinking of buying?
Thanks for the information everyone and the link; I wasn't aware of the FAA's new rule. I wonder what the rationale behind that is? I like the Fisher kits a lot, especially the FP-606 Sky Baby in tricycle configuration. I was hoping to stick with Part 103 due to lower cost, access to some farm land and the seat-of-your-pants style of flying but if the FAA is cracking down, I'm wondering if I should just save up for a PPL and an old Cessna 150, Luscombe, or other light 2-seater...
The FAAQuote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
Tony is correct in every respect. The page Blue chips listed is the situation as it was before the FAA adopted the LSA rules ten years ago. I looked high and low for four years for UL training and found none, legal or otherwise. I ended up taking 13 hours from a CFI in a cessna 150. When I did get my UL up, I cracked it up on my second flight. Why? No training in a similar aircraft. How insane is that? I am rebuilding and will not give up. Maybe by the time I am finished for the 2nd time type training may be available. Let's do more than hope.
Paul
"I wonder what the rationale behind that is?"
Rationale? From the FAA?
(Sorry. Couldn't resist. Not that I tried all that hard...)
One Hundred Million dollar question....You would have to ask the folks whom made the rules behind close doors this question and then as we all know you will not get the answer but a lot of hog-wash. I think everyone involved in ultralights have sat around drinking their favorite beverage asking this same question. What in the heck was these people thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by MADean
1. This was done in order for companies to sell new airplanes for only a factory built two seat can be used for training and it must be certified by the FAA. This is where we get away from ultralights because we have those who will say you can train in a Taylorcraft aircraft or something like this. But these are nothing like an ultralight, besides they both fly, have a seat and some pedals and a throttle.
2. This was done to limit the amount of people flying in the sky or controlling who does this. Ultralight Pilots are non registered and can do as they please. We all know government does not like it when one can do as one pleases.
The people in charge will tell you they gave you Sport Pilot what more do you want. Why do you even want to fly a dog-gone ultralight anyway?
Tony
P.S. I also know of a few people almost killed since this new ruling has gone into effect. This was from lack of training and them trying to do it themselves or fly an ultralight without any in type training. Amazes me with what the FAA knows about safety and in type training they did away with training in ultralights. This is why I lean on the 2nd theory.
It's sad to see this happening to the ultralight community. The more I read about the FAA, the more I'm convinced they have an agenda to put down any "lesser" forms of flying. Whatever their "ratonale" is, it obviously has nothing to do with safety since it encourages people to train themselves. I'd still like to meet some local UL enthusiasts if they're out there. I hate to jump ship because of dumb FAA rules.
If I may present another side of this issue (not that I necessarily agree with it). 2 seat UL trainers were allowed for good reasons, we all agree. But while they were only supposed to be used for training, I'm not sure I ever saw one at a fly-in with both seats filled. If you asked them about it, the "instructor" would say they "plan on offering instruction, and are familiarizing themselves with the operation of the UL before they start offering instruction", or some other such BS. Here's a pretty good write-up: http://www.midwestflyer.com/?p=1753
There are a couple of companies that plan on (or maybe are, by now) offering SLSA aircraft that are certificated versions of the old UL trainers, and are legal for instruction.
There are NO certified Ultralight SLSA aircraft being offered by any companies as of right now. Try and find one. I have called a lot of companies looking for such an aircraft. They are not around. Now if you own a two seat something or other you can get trained in it, but no training can be done in it for anyone but the owner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Finney
Lets say you have a registered two place Hornet, you can legally get training in that from a qualified instructor but no one but the owner can get this training. This is why training clubs are forming. Buy into the club get your training then sell your membership to the next student.
Tony
OK Tony, I'll bite. Just out from the granddaddy of UL's:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1600vw
http://www.quicksilveraircraft.com/details.php
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
Yes this just came out I saw this. Now who owns one to train in and who is going to buy one to train in? Sure you might find a few people who will spent 40 large on this but it will be so few and far between its a joke. We need to let those who have these already train in them. Like I said in theory 1. To sell airplanes.
What is the difference between this and the two seat quicksliver in most hangars today. They are everywhere. But make people buy a new airplane that is just like the one they already own and only paid a fraction of the cost of that bird.
Tony
As far as new trainers there are at least three, the CGS Hawk 2, the M-Squared Breeze 2, and the new Quicksilver Sport 2. More to the point we can receive training in anything,the hitch is paying for it. If someone has an E-LSA they can provide instruction in it, the cannot charge for the aircraft or their time. If the student owns the aircraft the instructor can charge for their time. The problem is NOT just the FAA, it is the selfish greed and fear of liability,(societal greed),that prevents our fellow pilots and aircraft owners from providing instruction. There are high drag low mass aircraft out there, there are far too few owners will to provide the use of those aircraft, We must fix this problem ourselves, if you have an aircraft that could be useful to someone offer it! Don't just saw it's the fault of the "rules" when something goes wrong and YOU had the power to effect the outcome. A licenses is not required for #103, no CFI-ultralight EVER existed. Even in certified aircraft their is no rule stating that a "trainer or instructor" must be a CFI that is to log time as "dual instruction". Do YOU want to be safer or help someone else to be safer?, then put YOUR aircraft and skills as a pilot in type where your complaints are. Be a big part of the solution! If you are flying anyway it costs nothing more to take someone with you and let them get used to your aircraft type.
Greg, I'm glad you posted this. I'm seriously interested in borrowing your aircraft. Can you reply with your airport base location and what type aircraft you have to offer? This is not a smart reply, this is a sincere inquiry. Thank You.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wilson
Best Regards......George
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wilson
This goes back to theory 1. They did this to sell airplanes.
For there are thousands of these planes parked in hangars all across this country. But the people who own them can not train in them because they do not have what the new airplanes you mention have. Do we all know what that is? I believe we do, a piece of paper saying they can train in these.
Stupid is as stupid does. This is just stupid.
Tony
I'm in Michigan, and the ultralight I currently have is a single sear Team Mini-Max. I fly an Aeronca 7AC and have offered it to other pilots but surprisingly none have taken me up on the offer. I was upset when I posted, (should not do that!!), and trying to point out that the FAA position is all based on compensation. If you are not compensated past 50% of direct cost they don't care. I have talked to some RV builders in Cheboygan MI. that could not get any stick time in other RV's here in northern MI. The stated reason was it is not allowed, it may be with their insurance but it would not be an FAA reg. issue. I'm not saying instructors should work for free, I'm saying that to get some familiarity flights the aircraft does not have to be an S-LSA, or T.C.'d, or even an E-AB with a waiver for instruction. It takes an owner/pilot willing to put up their aircraft and time to help with the safety of us all. If you come to northern MI, ask at GLR for me, right now we still have snow but I can put the skis back on the Champ. There are likely some "two seat ultralight" type E-LSA's around that could be used for non-paid training for ultralight transition, they will be hard to find as the owners will not be "instructors", but good luck. GregQuote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Six
Thanks Greg for your gracious offer. I'm interested in a 2 seat open ultralight type. There are a few ultralight strips in my areas within 200 miles and I haven't been actively seeking a ride at those places, otherwise I'm sure I can find one. Your post was interesting because you offered and if we were closer and if you had a 2 seater, I would certainly contact you and discuss getting some stick time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wilson
I'm not an ultralight guy, so not familiar with all the details of the FAR 103, but as applied to SLSA. ELSA, and E-AB, or certificated aircraft that fall within the LSA restrictions, I don't think I would blame the aircraft owners for the problem. Off hand, I would not blame the ultralight owners either. I suppose most paid their way and purchased their aircraft for their use, not to loan out for others. There are a lot of things that could get sideways when taking someone for a ride, familiarization flight, or informal instructions. Some may be linked to the FAR's, but for sure they are all linked to civil liabilities.
So, if an owner of an ultralight or any other aircraft wants it to sit in their hangar and not share, I understand, respect, and have absolutely no issue with their decision.
On the other hand, when I have an aircraft (I'm currently without ownership), I'm also one of those guys that find it difficult to resist offering rides and "how-to's" to others regardless of their flying level, from never been in a small plane, to the million hour big iron captains. If I have an open seat, without having a specific mission otherwise, it is open for just about anyone willing to show an interest.
Although I understand the issues for which airports have pretty much been surrounded by security, all those fences sure have reduced the access for those interested, making it more difficult for casual contact for no-flyers to contact pilots. Apologies to the OP, as pretty much none of this post helps or reflects on the original post.
Best Regards.......George
I am not in Missouri or the Ozarks so I did not respond earlier. However the complaints about lack of UL instruction is getting to me. As a qualified instructor I am aviable to work with students and have traveled from WA to FL and ME to instruct stdents that are serious about learning. There are hurdles to overcome but this is doable if you are serious. Right now I am looking for serious students in the Seattle area to work with in GA aircraft. I expect to be in TN when the equipment is ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian982
Send contact information and a discription of your needs and goals to GrantSmith@USA.com if you really want to fly safely. If you are looking to purchase an aircraft, I may be able to help with that also.
Grant, I'm personally not interested in UL pilot instruction, other than an introduction flight perhaps, but I am curious. If you don't mind, from your experience and background, is there an average range of hours you train Ultralight pilots, whom have no flying experience? Thank You.Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
Best Regards......George
May I ask what airplanes you offer to train in?Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
I believe the lack of UL training is getting to a lot of folks. Like I said I know a few people almost killed from lack of this instruction in Ultralight's.
Tony
This list was started by Bryan982 and I would respond in much more detail to him so please excuse me if I am overly brief.
Eagle Six – Your question about an average number of hours is probably not the correct question for what you really want to know. Flight instruction typically relates hours to cost and tracks flying hours. The quick answer to your question “is there an average range of hours you train Ultralight pilots” is of course yes there is an average. Do I know what the answer is? No. Does it make a difference? No. It takes what it takes and a lot depends on how much the student learns without my instruction. I am there to guide the learning and keep the student from going into dangerous operations.
There are teachers and instructors. A teacher teaches what the teacher wants you to know. An instructor helps you learn what you want to learn.
As far as “average” goes, if you had a class with ten men and ten women what would be the average sex? Does this have any relation to the sex of the students? It does not matter what the average is even if it is a sex education class. (Including sex in the discussion is one way to increase student interest and attention.)
Now to answer your question; 10 hours of flight time, on average, is plenty of time to make a safe pilot. You could scare yourself enough to make yourself a safe pilot in less time but that would be more dangerous. It could take a year to get the 10 hours or it could take two days.
I am glad you are not interested in ultralight instruction. Keep flying what you know how to fly. What is that?
There is not an “introductory flight” in a single seat ultralight. The first flight is for real. It is called a solo flight. I am sure you remember your first solo flight after many hours of dual flight. The first solo flight without dual experience is less memorable because it is just one small step in the training program.
1600VW – “May I ask what airplanes you offer to train in?”
Answer -What ever you have in general. It does not need to be an airplane. I teach in gliders, paragliders (powered and unpowered), Powered Parachutes, land and sea, WSC land and sea, gyroplanes, and a few other things. No helicopters or balloons. Look up my certificate on the FAA web site for airplane qualifications.
You say "I know a few people almost killed from lack of this instruction in Ultralight's". I could say the same, but I don't. I would leave out the "almost" as those are the more significant ones. I would point out that they were not "almost killed from lack of this instruction" but the incident was caused by a lack of knowledge and respect for the equipment. The lack of instruction is responsable for the lack of UL pilots and sale of equipment. How many bicycles would be sold if no one knew how to ride a bike. How did you learn to ride your bike? Did your teacher have a bicycle built for two? Off topic - one of my sons learned to ride a bicycle with no training (I am not sure what that means).
That's a bit presumptuous.....Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
My question was exactly and specifically what I asked, and therefore what I wanted to know.
The question was about you, not your students, or others flying ultralights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Six
...well, depending on who is talking at the time, a teacher, or an instructor! But I would agree you are half correct. My students don't necessarily get what I want or what they think they want, but what they need to reach a specific goal. We don't know what we don't know! Students may be different even when the goal is the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
Pretty much anything with wings and at least one fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
OK......apparently you made an assumption. If a friend pilot or instructor pilot took me up in a 2 seat ultralight, to introduce me to ultralights, I would most likely refer to this as an introductory flight. Your term may be different, that's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
Nevertheless, Thank You for your reply, for me, it sheds new light on ultralight flying and the ultralight community. Although you are one spokesperson, I hear you loud and clear!
Best Regards.......George
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to stir the pot. I guess UL training has become more controversial. I guess I will focus on finding enthusiasts in my area for now and work from there. :)
George,I am glad to see that you are well qualified as a CP-ASMEL/I, S-6ES for what you are doing. What is a S-6ES?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Six
Bryan, don't be sorry. GA needs to have these discussions. You can see some of the issues. Certified pilots think they are "real pilots" and do not recognize the "others" yet many think that they can "Fly like an eagle". I can recall when I did not understand ""Trike Pilots" and did not know what to think of them or how to respond to questions about them. Once I was enlightened it was like Wow is that what it is like! Stay with your dream and search for what you want. Let me know if I can help in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by brian982
Sorry Brian,Quote:
Originally Posted by brian982
My apology for taking this thread away from your intent of the OP, but at first I thought it would be of value to ask a simple question about hours. Apparently, it's not going that way.
Best Regards......George
No worries, I appreciate everyone's responses. I've been out of the aviation loop for a bit (started taking lessons at 18 in 2001, but didn't manage to finish). Now, I have more money to pursue the hobby and have always liked the idea of ultralights. Anyway, I'm soaking up as much info. as I can!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Six
Brian,
Can you elaborate on your concept of an ultralight. If you are thinking conventional aircraft both the Belite and the Aerolight 103 are fine examples of current prodcution and a complete airplane type ultralight that can be had for $15,500 to $17,000. If you are in the used market there are many older ultralight like aircraft that are now ELSA for less. I flew factory demos for the CGS Hawk for several years and think it is one of the better Ultralight/light sport airplanes. I can point you to my favorite that is available at a good price. It is Chuck's Army Hawk and has all the options and new fabric on the fuselage. I call it a poor mans super cub. Great performance and it will cary a load. I would deliver it to you and expect that you would be safe to fly it (with a tail wheel) in the 10 hours being discussed.
I guess Eagle Six is looking for the difference between solo and complete or safe or some other criteria. You do not solo until you are safe and when no training is required and no certificate available there is no imaginary or logical end to the training. (Private Pilot is not an end to the training, nor is sport pilot or instrument pilot) I am still learning to fly 55 years after soloing. I will stand by my irrelevent 10 hours given in the initiial answer to eagle sixes question. The old standard for solo was 8 hours but that has been replaced by 61.87 that is performance based not hours based.
If you are interested in more common ultralights such as hang gliders and paragliders I suggest we start a new thread.
Thanks for the information. I was actually looking at a CGS Hawk in Kansas City (http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/4392249857.html) but it has been wrecked at some point so I've been a little leery. I like the conventional aircraft layout, and prefer tricycle gear but I wouldn't turn down the right tail dragger. I will have to look at the Army Hawk you mentioned. My first choice right now is this Fisher FP-606 on Barnstormers in Arkansas (http://www.barnstormers.com/classifi...ER+FP-606.html). If I don't go for a used one, I might just do a kit (I really like the Fisher planes). My father-in-law built his home from scratch and builds r/c planes from balsa, so he should be able to help put a kit plane together should I need help with it. I restore classic cars, but I don't work with wood much. Anyway, that's what I'm looking at, either a used conventional ultralight plane or a kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi
This looks like a nice aircraft but I do not see any N number and I'' bet that it is over the weight limit by at least 20 to 30 pounds. This can and should have a big effect on the price. I can not tell from the photo of the boom about the dent. What I think I saw was substancial.
Even a nose wheel airplane can be run off the runway by an untrained pilot.
Have the airplane weighed before you buy it if it is not N numbered with an airworthyness certificate or unless the owner has a valid weight and balance form showing a legal empty weight!
I could not find the FP-606 but the same weight warning applies.
Brian, for clarity about the FAA cracking down--- this statement was about cracking down on 2-seat trainers. The UL's that are 103 conforming are still leagal to own & fly. You just can't get trained for them. Encouraging to read the post about a few companies working towards ESLA machines for this purpose.
Russel Green
There was to be a pathway to training in 2 seat formally "UL trainers" now experimental light sport (ELSA) by way of a LODA - for some vague and unexplained reason this process was delayed (for years). In the mean time those schools that offered training in UL type aircraft being unable to get a LODA got tired and either went away or were forced into buying SLSA that were not equivalent to UL flight operations leaving the UL world (US) pretty orphaned. I am noting that national is giving the UL world more ink and interest of late.
It's good to see this subject is still alive. All it takes is the will to endure the frustration. And take up on the offers to help, and one can reach the goal of flight. I am a prime example of that dream. I found the help here and I fly a 103 UL of my own design. I can only say if not for the few that did extend the hand .I may have failed. Thank you to one posthumously.He died flying his own experimental, nothing to do with mine. And the other that picked up the ball And saw me to the end.
If you want it badly enough you will find the way don't Waite for the FAA to fix things.
What is available is not agreed on by all. Be safe but listen not to those that only offer opinion.
Hello, all. I recently began a search for UL training, here in central Ohio, I began with the EAA chapters in my area, and got no further with the groups than meetings, and most pointed me toward the Light Sport area, or did know of any UL pilots. Since most clubs around here focus on standard GA aircraft. I was given a name of a local EAA Award Winner for an Ultra light Design several years ago. This led me to a private / hidden in plain sight UL club, in my area. I found about 14 pilots and various UL birds. I have found people sympathetic to the UL instructor problem, this local group has been doing their own sharing of flight instruction, there is available a 2 seat bird for UL help. This helps the group share duties as instruction / introduction flights to help those of us that want to get at least some help, instead of dead cold hit the throttle and go for it. It is a sad state when this great form of personal flight was hamstringed by buracrats that only see our sport as a possible cash cow that GA is now. most of us cannot afford a nice shiny new $15,000 bird. so we build, and learn all we can to be as safe as possible. I read above the (scared to death about liability issues, and know first hand about this) I have a friend with a perfectly good Kit fox 3 /4 that he will never put back together but wont sell or give it away, for fear of any Liability, what a waste of a perfect aircraft, complete all it needs is the fuse re-covered and inspected (n number is out of date)
Yes, you can get training. Ask me how with with specific details of what you need or are looking for. GrantSmith@usa.com. No spam please.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyrgreen