Seeking Project Suggestions

I'm trying to figure out what to build, and I could use some suggestions. My basic requirements are:

• Small, one or two-place E-AB aircraft
• Preferably conventional gear
• Folding wings to allow towing and garage storage
• Available as a complete kit
• Total budget for VFR a/c: $30,000

Missions that interest me include:

• Dawn patrol-type low and slow flying
• Cross-country flights for $100 burgers, fly-ins, etc.
• Perhaps Sportsman or Sprint class Sport Air Racing

So far I've looked pretty hard at the Belite and OneX. The Belite has the advantages of low cost, relatively fast build, and low/slow fun, but lacks speed/range and uses a noisy two stroke (one flight review described it as deafening). The OneX is more expensive and complicated to build, but has more typical GA speed and range with larger tanks and a four stroke, and it could be raced.

I seem to recall that at least some of the Kolb aircraft have folding wings, but their website is down as I write this, so I can't confirm it. Are they still in business?

I've also looked at the Loehle 5151 and P-40. They might be race-able, but their wings/tail come off rather than fold, so setup, takedown and trailering would be difficult to do by myself.

I enjoy both low/slow and cross-country flying, but I don't have room and can't afford to build two aircraft! Are there any other kits I should look at that might fit one or more of my missions, while meeting my basic requirements? Thanks!

Mini-IMP partially satisfy your requirements. Plans included with CAD drawings, so you can cut your own sheet metal kit by CNC service. But it is high-speed aircraft. If you want to fly low and slow look for Poor Boy. IMHO two folding wings aircraft might be stored in single car garage without serious problem.

Have you had a look at the Just Aircraft Highlander? Seems like it may fit your profile...

http://www.justaircraft.com/page.php?25

A buddy of mine is getting ready to start one...really cool airplane!

Thanks for the ideas, guys!

Commodore: That Mini-IMP is a gorgeous little thing, and the website claims completed cost of $10-15k plus engine. I'm guessing ~$25-30k flying. They do offer some parts packages, but there isn't really a complete kit. Very interesting...

Chad: The Just is a cool a/c. It's a nice classic design, but I fear it's beyond my budget. A quick calculation comes to $42,650 plus freight, paint, avionics and tools, and that's using the cheapest engine and no quick-build options. It looks like it could easily pass $50k once completed.

I should have mentioned budget limitations in my opening post. Now edited to add this requirement.

Per your requirements, I think you would be really happy with a Onex. Ok, I'm biased. I've built the better part of 2 Sonex - one I sold before it flew, and the other I saw through to completion and have been flying for the past 3 years. Reasons I would recommend Onex by Sonex (based on your criteria): They are a good-size, going company. They have an ever-increasing base of completed customer airplanes (just passed 350 Sonex designs flying), so there will be a LOT of support. Even though Onex customer builds are just getting started, a LOT of the Sonex knowledge base from fellow builders will cross over. So there are loads of people both online and in person to ask how to get things done. Their Onex kit is "more complete" than even the Sonex kits. With the Onex, they have ventured into match-drilled construction - can cleco together some parts right out of the box, so it will be reasonably quick to build. The wing fold is very quick and robust. The performance WILL be what they say - they don't exaggerate. Their way of doing conventional gear will be very easy to handle. I expect it will cruise a bit faster than the 2-seat Aerovee-powered Sonex due to the narrower fuselage, and lower gross weight allowing less wing area and less drag in that respect. Probably pretty close to the 3300-powered Sonex. In watching the flight video, the numbers they were seeing were not quite as fast as my 3300-powered Sonex, but still really good. It definitely looks like a lot of fun for the money.

Actually, since you don't mention LSA as a requirement, they did have to add area-increasing wingtips to meet the LSA stall speed. If you don't need that, leave those off (end the wings at the metal, not sure if they are offering "flat" close-out tips, but metal close outs are not that hard to build - that's what I have on my Sonex). Then you would also be free to tweak the prop a bit for more speed. I don't know, but I suspect they will be issuing a "Light Sport" engine RPM limit for the Aerovee to keep the Onex slow enough. So without those limitations (shorter wing, more cruise-ish prop, and no artificial rpm limit), my guess is (and you might want to contact the company on this) that the Onex is pretty easy to build in a form that is too fast to meet LSA. In that form, I can't think of anything currently available and supported that could give that much speed for your sub $30k budget... You can always throttle (way) back if you want to slow it down...

The Onex is going to be a VERY popular airplane I think!

All of the Kolb line (except the early twin engine Flyer) have folding wings. 10 minutes to set up. Great for buzzing around, but not exactly racing planes (I have an early Kolb UltraStar). The Sonex line looks attractive (though to some eyes ugly) too.

"

• Small, one or two-place E-AB aircraft
• Preferably conventional gear
• Folding wings to allow towing and garage storage
• Available as a complete kit
• Total budget for VFR a/c: $30,000 "

One possibility came to mind, though my understanding is, not a "kit" - The Thorp T-18

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Originally Posted by David Darnell

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One possibility came to mind, though my understanding is, not a "kit" - The Thorp T-18

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I believe the Sunderland S-18 version is available as a kit.

David and Ron: The T-18/S-18 is a great design. It's a beautiful plane and has great performance. I spoke to an owner once and he couldn't say enough good things about its flying qualities. The S-18 is indeed available as a kit, though it would be difficult to finish within my budget. The kit is just over $20,000 + freight, and it uses a certified engine.

The OneX is looking better and better the more I learn about it. I've watched both of the Webinars that the Sonex guys put on, and it's truly a game-changing design. The matched-hole type kit is very appealing to me, as I don't have the tools or know-how to do a lot of fabrication. I think I'd really enjoy constructing a plane, and I'd be proud to say, "Yeah, I built it." That said, I don't want to invest a decade in the project; I want to fly!

I'm still open to suggestions. I'm sure somebody knows of another type that will work for me...

Thanks to EAA for putting this thread in the eHotline!

Still searching, Eric? 1 or 2 seater that folds away like a Leatherman? Here's a couple more:
Avid, Kitfox, Skyraider (in Idaho) Rans, Sonerai, Fisher Flying Products from Ont. Canada. Fisher has over a dozen wood designs. There are a bunch in my area. My vote goes to the Fisher Dakota Hawk with a Geodesic airframe. Also look at the Flybaby. Ron Wanttaja is the FB expert. I even know of an STC for folding wings on the Ercoupe 415.

Ron mentioned the S-18. I was building the S-18 predecesor the Thorp T-18 back in 68. It features a quick detachable wing. Takes two guys because its a one piece wing 23 feet long. I still have all the drawings and maybe some parts.

Bob

Not sure if I want to build at this time, but I've been trying to decide on the ideal airplane for my situation. I currently have a 1978 Cessna 172N and a Challenger II long wing. I also have a 1600' grass strip at our house where I keep the Challenger. Having a plane in your backyard is GREAT. I've found I fly the Challenger 2 - 3 times a week while the 172 sits in a hangar 28 miles away waiting for the opportuhity to go on a long trip. I'm thinking about selling both these planes and buying one that I can use year-round off the grass strip, can fly slow and low, and is capable of making medium length cross country trips relatively comfortably with at least 2 people. I can't decide on the ideal airplane to fit this bill. Any ideas?

How about the Personal Cruiser?

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Originally Posted by Ed Jeffko

How about the Personal Cruiser?

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Ooo, I like that a lot. Nice swoopy shape, apart from the oddly rectangular cowling. The price is right and it looks like a reasonably straightforward build. Only drawback I see is that the wings don't fold. Thanks for the heads up on this one, Ed!

fixedwing2: It sounds like a Kitfox series 7 might fit the bill for you. It is available as a kit or fully constructed ready to fly. As a kit I think you can certify it up to a 1550 pound GW which allows it a useful load of about 780 pounds. The Ready to fly model is certified as an S-LSA, so it cuts that down to 1320, but that still gives you 550 pounds of useful load. They quote range of just over 600 miles with VFR reserves, 122mph at 7500 feet burning 4.8 gph, so I think that probably meets your xcountry needs. It doesn't need much runway, so pretty much anybody should be able to get off your 1600 feet easy.

Ed Jeffko: The Personal Cruiser looks awesome. The fold-a-plane thing is very intriguing. Looking at the numbers, I may build one of these. I'm with Eric though, I'd probably want to streamline the cowling a bit.

I built a Sonerai II back in the early 80s. It was the most fun airplane I have yet to fly with decent performance on 4 gal. an hour. Folding wings and towable. Good looks didn't hurt either.Attachment 445170mph with a 2180cc VW conversion.

I like the kitfox because I prefer high wing airplanes but for sight seeing (that's the low slow flying I mentioned) and gives you more clearance in back country strips. Actually,the kitfox is one that I had been looking at.

So has anyone built one of these? If so let me know.

You might want to look at the Morane over at Airdrome Aeroplanes - http://www.airdromeaeroplanes.com/ . The wing doesn't fold, but is built for quick release and trailering. Sharon Starks of the KC Dawn Patrol can get hers from trailer to the air in about half an hour.

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Originally Posted by Eric Page

I'm trying to figure out what to build, and I could use some suggestions. My basic requirements are:

• Small, one or two-place E-AB aircraft
• Preferably conventional gear
• Folding wings to allow towing and garage storage
• Available as a complete kit
• Total budget for VFR a/c: $30,000

Missions that interest me include:

• Dawn patrol-type low and slow flying
• Cross-country flights for $100 burgers, fly-ins, etc.
• Perhaps Sportsman or Sprint class Sport Air Racing

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Here's a great resource for you:
http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/default.asp

It includes in-depth articles on many E-AB, including the Thatcher CX4

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2011-09_thatchers.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2011-06_thatcher.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2011-02_thatcher.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2011-01_thatcher.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-08_cx4.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-05_womb.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/articles/2010-04_cx4.asp

http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/images/1109_T-1.jpg

I know this is going to sound like the guy who has only a hammer, so every problem looks like a nail, but how about Eric Clutton's FRED? Except for not being a kit, it meets your other requirements. Full disclosure--I created and maintain the non-commercial fan site www.cluttonfred.info. Cheers ,Matthew

Thanks for the additional ideas, guys.

Pat, the CX4 looks like a good fit for what I need, but I have one question. Several of the Experimenter articles mentioned building from a kit, but the Thatcher website makes no mention of kits whatsoever. Was this option abandoned, or are the kits sold by someone else?

Matthew, I've seen FRED before, and it's a great take on the parasol genre. Unfortunately, I'm not a big fan of open cockpit flying. I know that's heresy in some circles...

Eric,Peter Beck sells the Thatcher kits as a licensee...great guy. http://www.cx4works.com/index.htm

Thanks, Chad!

Any time!

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Originally Posted by Eric Page

Matthew, I've seen FRED before, and it's a great take on the parasol genre. Unfortunately, I'm not a big fan of open cockpit flying. I know that's heresy in some circles...

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Especially given your choice of avatar.... ;-)

Ha ha! Touché...

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Unfortunately, I'm not a big fan of open cockpit flying.

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Don't let large props scare you!

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I know that's heresy in some circles...

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Naw, it just means we'll put you on the list for re-education.

:)

Made up your mind yet?

Frank, not much chance of that. My daily flyer has 14-footers!

No, I haven't made up my mind, but I don't think I've seen anything yet to move me off of the OneX. That said, I'd love for someone to show me something that works better for me!

hey check out www.littletootbiplane.com
i have one and is a blast to fly. check out this out as well. this is a great airplane and a really great handling biplane in the air and on the ground
airbum.com/articles/ArticleBiplanes.htm
thanks james

Thanks, James. Looks like a fun bird!

Have you considered a RANS S-12? I rebuilt a 1995 model in 2005 and found factory support and Ted Bryant on MD very helpful. I think you can complete this for under $30K, it is a high wing for better low and slow sight seeing, has a stall of low 40's and cruises at 75 mph.

Dave Thatcher is the designer of the Thatcher CX4. On the CX4 Yahoo Group, Dave posted the following on 3/15/2012:

Gentlemen:
The CX4 kits offered by Mr. Peter Beck will no longer be available.
Of course, the kits sold and under construction now will be completed.
The fiberglass parts sold by Erni Martin will continue to be sold, and the parts
I make will still be available.
Best regards,
Dave Thatcher

I wouldn't be concerned with this announcement. Dave has recently sold his 500th set of plans. The vast majority of all builders are building per the plans and are not using Pete's kit. All flying Thatchers have been built with plans only and are not kit-built.

This is an AWESOME thread. Thanks so much to everyone who put in some of the obscure companies and planes!

I haven't seen anyone mention this, so I'll throw it out there. The Midget Mustang is a really cool looking kit (who doesn't want a mustang?) and it looks like you might be able to get it into the air in your price range.
The only thing is on your list that I don't believe the Mustang will do is fold wings, but just as a thought:
http://www.mustangaero.com/

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(who doesn't want a mustang?)

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A full size one? Eh....if it was given to me or sold dirt cheap, sure. Honestly, I've never been that impressed with the P-51. Now a P-40 or Spitfire or one of the German fighters of WWII? I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a cupcake.

The Midget Mustang looks about as much like a P-51 as a Fokker turboprop looks like a B-26.

You take the P-40 (agreed, a very sexy fighter). I'll take the mustang, and then give it to the original poster. :-D