STOL OPERATIONS IN AN AERONCA 11AC w/65 hp

I would like to hear from EXPIERENCED and currently active, in type, pilots of of Chiefs wih just the fundamental 65 horses as to their ability to land the machine SHORT and takeoff with minimum ground roll on grass. Input fom instructors giving training, doing BFR's or otherwise specifying "How-To" in this aircraft are of special interest. I purposefully left the obstacle specification to the responder but, obviously, the higher and closer the better. There are static numbers from many sources, but the question is "what are you actually achieving ? Another factor is the ever present Chief vs. Champ hassle. This question has to do with the 11 AC only.Please refrain from the childish bickering which so often arises in forum discussions about technique such as was present in the recent posts on Taylorcraft "Speed-Brakes". If you find a post objectionable, just leave it be. If you feelpersonally insulted, I suggest you take it up with the individual via pm or contact the forum moderator.

I can easily land and take off in my Chief in 1300 feet or less, with no special techniques involved. Champ vs. Chief - do you want to see your passenger while you talk to them? Need a Chief. Other than that, they fly about the same. Chief is a tiny bit faster in cruise.

I fly a '46 11AC based in Pine Bluff, AR. I find my performance is very near the numbers reported by Rosie Jerry Rosie in cooler temperatures. Mine has an A75, but when the humidity climbs the take-off roll and climb out change greatly. I can't give the actual numbers for a 95 F day with 90% humidity,,,but it makes you appreciate the sliding windows in the Chief. Simply put," the day is hot, the plane is not".

The Tractor Doc

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Originally Posted by EDGEFLY

I would like to hear from EXPIERENCED and currently active, in type, pilots of of Chiefs wih just the fundamental 65 horses as to their ability to land the machine SHORT and takeoff with minimum ground roll on grass. Input fom instructors giving training, doing BFR's or otherwise specifying "How-To" in this aircraft are of special interest. I purposefully left the obstacle specification to the responder but, obviously, the higher and closer the better. There are static numbers from many sources, but the question is "what are you actually achieving ? Another factor is the ever present Chief vs. Champ hassle. This question has to do with the 11 AC only.Please refrain from the childish bickering which so often arises in forum discussions about technique such as was present in the recent posts on Taylorcraft "Speed-Brakes". If you find a post objectionable, just leave it be. If you feelpersonally insulted, I suggest you take it up with the individual via pm or contact the forum moderator.

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Jerry;tractordoc,Thanks for your replies. I am asking the question because I have the possibility of constructing a private strip which would be grass, level, 996 feet long BUT with 50 foot high obstructions (powerlines) located precisely at the end points of the 996 foot runway ! Why all bother ? Simply that this location would enable me to fulfill my flying "mission objective" with a 65 hp Chief (my real desire) or possiblHy a Taylorcraft. And, hangar the bird within 200 feet or so of the back door of my house. The location is Nothern PA where there are some small mountains but plenty of space for pattern approaches and such. Part of the reason I composed my original post as I did, is that a similar thread on short field techniques became entangled with wind gust multipliers and rhetorical questions about each individuals' piloting skills became IMHO a repetitive encyclopedia of truisms but not very informative. So, while it is clear that neither of you can say "always or never" about another pilots' abilities and experience and that I am aware of the standard nuances of wind,weather,stall speeds etc. I wonder what the two of you think about the routine use of such a facility if you were considering it?

Edgefly - I think I could routinely get it into that strip (but I'd prolly need a lot of practive and go arounds until I felt totally comfortable) but, getting out is another matter. As tractordoc indicated, temp and humidity (and the lengtth of your grass and tire pressure for that matter) are gonna have an affect on your takeoff distance requirements. Once in the air, the Chief does not climb like a rocket - I can count on about 500 feet per minute on a good day, and clearing your obsticals may be a challange. I can suggest that you take your airplane to a longer runway and make some practice runs, making fairly precise measurements on how long it takes you to land from various configurations, and how much room you need to clear your obsticals on take off. Have a buddy help you so you can concentrate on flying the airplane. You will probably want to try it with just you in the plane and also with a passenger, as you may want to be taking a friend up from your home strip. Before you commit yourself, best to try it in a place you have some options left if you find you can't get over the powerlines in time. (If you didn't have those powerlines that close to the end of the runway, I'd feel a lot more comfortable)

Asking for trouble. Even if it's technically possible to get the aircraft in and out (which I doubt, unless you plan on flying under the wires) you'll always be flying with razor, razor thin margins.

I'll have to agree with Old Timer and rosiejerryrosie. Don't risk it. You have no margin for any slip up.
The performance of the Chief (or at least mine) on a 1000 ft strip is not impressive. Then you factor in the fact that powerlines are unforgiving, you are speaking about grass, even if it were like golf course greens, and although you didn't say for sure, it sounds like a one way in and out strip. There is too much working against you.
Also, it would be a good idea to check and see if your life insurance will pay if you are killed as PIC.

thetractordoc

OK Gentlemen, I genuinely appreciate your patience on this topic but I have a few more points to explore. My review of your inputs basically indicates that landing over the 50 foot obstacles may be possible but heavy emphasis on the "may". There seems to be a common feeling that the takeoff proposition is not so good and a couple of positions given "just don't try it. Two additional factors may be important in the final analysis. One is that I may have a legal basis to require the Electric utility to realign the direction of the utility line on one end which would possibly extend the total runway length to 1150 feet; again with the 50 foot obstacle height on each end. Another is different A/C configu rations involving more horsepower, addition of lift improvement devices and maybe even a special prop configuration. What are your thoughts on these items ?Another question is whether any of you is if you have located performance data for your own birds under conditions other than the Standard Day kind of numbers. The location of such info could be a great help to me later on. Jerry, If I pull out all the stops, This strip could be within 150 feet of what you said you were working from at 07N. Maybe you don't have to be over 50 feet at 1300 ft from takeoff there but, if I can clear the 50 foot obstacles here at 1150 from takeoff, I can use a lot of slow climb to get out of here.

Edge, my question is that if you have the money for a legal fight against the electric utility (and it will probably be quite a fight; one of the airports back home spent tends of thousands trying to get a set of powerlines moved and it didn't work and they are stuck with a displaced threshold as a result), would that money not be spent a little better at finding yourself a longer strip without those issues? Are we talking about your backyard or something?

I'm chiming in because I am currently starting towards my tailwheel endorsement (and some other refresher stuff) in a Chief and one of the first things my instructor pointed out was that "On days like today- hot and humid- there's going to be a big difference in being able to get into a field versus getting out of it. Plan ahead." I'm not exactly experienced (with exactly two hours of experience in it) but my instructor has over 1200 hours in the Chief alone so I felt like adding his comments since they seemed pertinent. I hope you don't mind.

I would not takeoff, even solo, on a runway 1150 feet with 50 foot wires. The Chief is not a STOL airplane when compared with a Cub.
It is the climb to 50 feet that uses considerable runway.
Is clearing the obstacle by only a few feet acceptable? Not for me, I want a wide margin.

A small unseen downdraft could put you into the wires.

One time I had my Chief overloaded somewhat. It required the full 5000 feet of runway to clear the tress, in that case.

Edgefly - I may have mislead you 07N is actually 2200 feet long so even if I can normally land and get off in the first 1300 feet of it, I still have a comfortable margin of safety before I run out of runway. This is different, at last psychologically, than haveing only 1150 feet between obstacals. I'm not an enginer so I would be reluctant to comment on the idea of adding enough horsepower/torque/etc to make it over 50 foot obstacles in X number of feet. Just a comment based on personal experience - adding horsepower also adds weight, so a major part of your added horsepower is going to be used up in compensating for the added weight, therefore, the required increase in horsepower is going to be considerable. We have been talking mostly theoretically here. Why don't you just take your airplane out to a longer grass strip, mark off the distance between your obstacles, and do a couple of takeoffs and landings. Do you feel comfortable that you would be able to do it safely when the real obstacles are there?

Steve in Indy said "one of the first things my instructor pointed out was that "On days like today- hot and humid- there's going to be a big difference in being able to get into a field versus getting out of it. Plan ahead."

Steve's instructor sounds like a man of wisdom.
You seem pretty intent on trying this. I advise against it. However, a safe way to see if you can do make it in and OUT is setting up a paper mache ribbon across a grass strip at the same heigth as your powerlines. Use the hottest day with the highest relative humidity with no headwind to simulate conditions you may encounter in the actual field. Ripping through a ribbon will be a much better option than mixing aircraft tubing and high voltage powerlines.


The Tractor Doc

I know this is late, But take look at the 11CC Super Chief It has 85HP

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Originally Posted by EDGEFLY

I would like to hear from EXPIERENCED and currently active, in type, pilots of of Chiefs wih just the fundamental 65 horses as to their ability to land the machine SHORT and takeoff with minimum ground roll on grass. Input fom instructors giving training, doing BFR's or otherwise specifying "How-To" in this aircraft are of special interest. I purposefully left the obstacle specification to the responder but, obviously, the higher and closer the better. There are static numbers from many sources, but the question is "what are you actually achieving ? Another factor is the ever present Chief vs. Champ hassle. This question has to do with the 11 AC only.Please refrain from the childish bickering which so often arises in forum discussions about technique such as was present in the recent posts on Taylorcraft "Speed-Brakes". If you find a post objectionable, just leave it be. If you feelpersonally insulted, I suggest you take it up with the individual via pm or contact the forum moderator.

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Reviving an old thread, but it is a common Champ/Cub/Taylorcraft dream to have your own strip at home. And power lines are a common problem.

Someone in my area faced this exact situation. An inquiry with the electric company yielded an outrageous price for burying the wires just across the ends of the strip to eliminate the danger.

After consulting an aviation lawyer, he proceeded to level, crown, and seed the short runway. Filed all the appropriate paperwork with the FAA to make it a registered airport.

Then he had his lawyer send the electric company a notice that their wires across the runway were a serious threat to the safety of airplane operations at the airport. And the official legal notice making the company aware of the danger meant that if there were an accident, they could be sued for negligence.

The electric company buried the power lines at their own expense in a short period of time.

Long ago dead thread but maybe it could help someone in the future.

Addendum:
I made this post before I checked the dates- didn't realize this was posted well over a decade ago. Still...

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I have the possibility of constructing a private strip which would be grass, level, 996 feet long BUT with 50 foot high obstructions (powerlines) located precisely at the end points of the 996 foot runway !

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I learned to fly in a Chief from a 1900 ft grass strip at ~600 ft elevation in northern Illinois. A 900 ft strip with obstruction(s) would be marginal, to put it kindly, even on a cool day. The Chief is NOT a STOL aircraft, and it really does want something at Vx or slightly over for climb, and you'd better be precise on airspeed over the fence and proficient at slips for landing -- it likes to float. If you want to use the sort of field you describe, better find something that can repeatedly use not much over 600 ft, or so, to clear your obstacle(s).

If you have a passenger aboard you'd be very foolish, indeed, to try to use that beast on even a bit longer field (1900 ft gave us a small but adequate margin on a warm day). Also, in PA as you describe, you'd likely be at a higher density altitude than I was in Illinois and believe me, density altitude IS a VERY strong consideration, especially with such a tiny field for a very weak performing aircraft.

Like Jerry, above, I might (when I was proficient with the aircraft) get it into a field like that, but takeoff?????? I wouldn't try it. Of course it's only your life and your aircraft you're risking (when solo that is). Nice dream, but the aircraft doesn't "know" about dreams.

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Other than that, they fly about the same. Chief is a tiny bit faster in cruise.

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I found the rudder of the Chief to have very little feel compared to the Champ, almost no resistance- perhaps it was only that copy, but it was the only Chief I've flown.

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