Recommendations on what to build

I'm looking to build a 'low and slow' compliment to my RV-7. We've got a mountain cabin on a meadow with room for a 425' rough landing strip between 2 gravel roads. On the opposite side of one road are 50' trees, on the other a fenced pasture. Therefore, I'd like something that would comfortably land and take off in about 200' at 5000-6000' density altitude so I have a decent safety margin. Actual altitude is 4300', but it can get pretty hot in summer. Ideally, I'd like to have the option of carrying a passenger, but mostly this would be for morning and evening scenic flights around the mountains of Central Oregon, so a single seat would be a consideration.

I'm a bit spoiled by the strong builder's community for RV's, so I'm looking not only for a great plane, but also a good support group for both building and flying. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
bill

If you want "low, slow and STOL", my suggestion is the Zenith line of aircraft. That's their thing.

An old pterodactyl would be good for this application. Here is a link to where you can get some background and perhaps a lead on where to find one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterodactyl_Ascender

The Assender II+2 would be a good choice if you can find one. I flew a Pterodactly 430R for nearly over 20 years so don't be afraid of buying a used one. If properly hangered (or hung from the garage ceiling like I did) the fabric will last a very long time.

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An old pterodactyl would be good for this application. Here is a link to where you can get some background and perhaps a lead on where to find one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterodactyl_Ascender

The Assender II+2 would be a good choice if you can find one. I flew a Pterodactly 430R for nearly over 20 years so don't be afraid of buying a used one. If properly hangered (or hung from the garage ceiling like I did) the fabric will last a very long time.

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I wouldn't think that something like that would do well in a high DA (or high wind) setting. Granted, I've never even seen one in person but from the looks of that thing it wouldn't be my first choice (even with my prior experience with flying in ultralights) for the type of things that Spindrift was describing.

Carbon Cub, RANS S7, etc. But if you want my opinion get a helicopter. Those margins seem a little tight if you had any sort of engine out or issue. Not alot of room for error if the winds were bad, heavy load, or whatever. Better start practicing your spot landings and hand good brakes for landings and maybe a nitros bottle handy for takeoffs. All in jest of course!

Since you live in Oregon, stop by at Sport Copter in Scappoose and look over the Vortex M912. I am building one for low and slow flying since I have a Sonex for fast and aerobatics. . It is single place but with a Rotax 912ULS 100 hp, it will land on a postage stamp, and require about 200 foot for takeoff, but the best thing is wind will hardly bother it. They also make a two place (Sport Copter II) with a big lycoming IO360 for more dollars. Your elevation is only 500 foot higher then where I live. A gyroplane is going to be a lot of fun and I can't wait to get it finished.

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But if you want my opinion get a helicopter. Those margins seem a little tight if you had any sort of engine out or issue.

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And the idea of autorotation is any more desirable in a confined area like that? ;)

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Not alot of room for error if the winds were bad, heavy load, or whatever.

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That sounds like most helicopters with all systems functioning normally. LOL

After 35 years flying jets, I wanted something low and slow. I bought a couple of 2 cycle kit planes and never felt comfortable. Last summer I bought a Wag Aero Sport Trainer, which is identical to the J-3 Cub, only built in year 2000. It has a C-90 engine and I love it. Flew it through the Rocky Mts in AUG: D.A. no problem. Plans good to 1400#, so just build it to 1320 and it qualifies as Light Sport.
Bob

Just throwing in another vote/recommendation for the Zenith CH750. What engine do you have in your RV7? I'd want 110 (max power)HP. That should do 'er.

jo

If you really want to "build" something low and slow... look at the Pietenpol Air Camper. I can hear the blades being sharpened already. :)

This one belongs to Jack Phillips of Smith Mountain Lake, North Carolina, who is also an RV builder. A real beauty!
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That is beautiful....the colors are a marvelous pairing. How does it handle in high DA settings?

I really can't answer that Steve... I'm just a fan of the design. Perhaps one of the Pietenpol pilots will come along and answer that for us.

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Originally Posted by Hangar10

I really can't answer that Steve... I'm just a fan of the design. Perhaps one of the Pietenpol pilots will come along and answer that for us.

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Fair enough. I've never had the chance to fly one which is why I asked. It's a cool design.

Check out this web site http://www.worldaircraftco.com/ 190 take off

I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned the Kitfox. The Classic IV was designed for just the kind of thing you want to do. Low and slow, four cycle engines, 2 seats, Sport Pilot legal and steel tube safety. You can buy good used ones, or get a brand new kit from the factory.

Jim

Glad to have sparked a bit of lively debate! Thanks for the ideas.

I am definitely going to check out a Sportcopter given that my RV is in the hanger closest to theirs, and they've been kind enough to give me a couple of little things I needed to keep moving on a project (heat shrink, air, etc.). However, I am a bit nervous given that a good friend of mine, who is a much more accomplished pilot than I, balled one up on his first flight after purchase, even after transition training. Luckily he wasn't injured, but the rebuild is taking quite a while.

I talked to a guy in the ultralight area at Arlington a couple years ago, but I can't remember the model name. He seemed to think it wouldn't be a problem to take off and land in well under 200'.

I've got an IO360 in my RV, but my goal with this project would be something smaller and less expensive to build and operate. I won't need any significant cross-country range, and I wouldn't be flying if it was very windy. This would be a calm sunrise/sunset bird only.

- bill
Portland, OR
RV-7 purchased flying after selling my -7A project before starting the finish kit

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I am definitely going to check out a Sportcopter given that my RV is in the hanger closest to theirs, and they've been kind enough to give me a couple of little things I needed to keep moving on a project (heat shrink, air, etc.). However, I am a bit nervous given that a good friend of mine, who is a much more accomplished pilot than I, balled one up on his first flight after purchase, even after transition training. Luckily he wasn't injured, but the rebuild is taking quite a while.

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He is very lucky. If you do go with a gyrocopter, make sure it has some form of structural protection for your head and neck. A lot of them of them don't and they have a tendency to turn turtle or nose over in crash sequences. Without something else between you and the ground, even a helmet isn't likely to offer that much protection.

. . . and if you're talking STOL and Light Sport, you'll want to look at the Highlander, from Just Aircraft (www.justaircraft.com). Great short field performance, even on 80 hp (but better yet with more hp), and plenty of useful load if you want to take someone along. It's a descendent of the Avid Flyer, from which the Kitfox also sprang, but optimized for STOL operations. There are plenty of powerplant options. Choose standard tires and gear, or move up as far as 31" Airstreak "tundra" tires and extended gear, or make it tricycle gear. The wings fold; it takes one person about two minutes to fold or unfold them, and no plumbing, wiring or control disconnections are necessary. It's a wonderfully responsive airplane that makes you really glad you fly. No, I don't work for the factory, but I'm building my own Highlander. I've been to airshows since I started building, and every time I look at other airplanes, I realize what a good decision it was to build this one. Check out a couple of videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV_HfdBZR2s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7WVcVl-c1M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeQP-H_31JQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHXnQCE0kG0

For something "low & slow" I suggest that you look into the Fisher Flying Products line. They have several kits that would qualify. I built a Horizon 1 back in 1995 using a A65-8 engine and a Warp Drive prop and am very happy with it.
Dave Raun

My non-RV is a Quad City Challenger II Long Wing, and I fly it more than the RV. It flies low and slow beautifully. I can take off and land in a couple hundred feet solo. People at the airport are amazed at how fast I get off the ground and how steeply I climb out. I can cruise around for several hours at 40-50 mph and 3 gph, or I can cruise it at 75-80 mph. It isn't the plane for getting somewhere, especially if it's more than 100 miles away, although some people do take them on longer trips. But for just flying around locally and having fun and seeing the sights, it can't be beat.

Some people are nervous about 2-stroke, but my Rotax 503 has nearly 600 hours on it and has never had a hiccup. It doesn't take much of a spot for an off-airport landing, so there are lots of places to land if something goes bad. It also has a ballistic parachute, in case there is no place to land. So, I don't worry about the "2-stroke" issue at all. TBO on the 503 is 300 hr. Last year I started pulling the engine out to put in a new one, but I found the inside looks like a new engine, with full crosshatching and it has 80/80 compression, so I just put it back together and continued flying it. Part of the longeivty may be due to the fact that I think most people fly these at about 5800 rpm and 4 gph, but I mostly fly mine at 4500 rpm and 3 (or less) gph.

Suposedly, if you're into gliders, you can even shut the engine off with a Long Wing and glide the thermals, but i've never tried it.

I like my RV a lot, especially for actually GOING somewhere, but for just flying around, the CH2 can't be beat. The "II" means 2-seat. They also have a single seat model and "clipped wing" models that fly faster, but are less STOL.

Challengers also have a good group on Yahoo Groups, although of course not as extensive as VAF & the other Van's groups.

If you're interested in in more details about the Challenger, feel free to contact me.

Since you are already comfortable buiding with aluminum, and you want enclosed, high-visibility flight at low speeds, the Kolb MK III would be an excellent choice.

This aircraft is easy and quick to build, operates from *very short* fields (300 ft or less) and is a baby carriage to handle on the ground and in the air. Engine choices can be 2 or 4 stroke in the 50-75 hp range as needed for your altitude.

This is a long-proven successful design that you will come to love and respect as the hrs build up.

i think you said,450 ft runway. rotor craft will do the trick. go for a gyro ride to see if it turns you on. have them fly into your strip. a lot to choose from though.

you only would like to do this one time. i like the just aircraft a lot too. you need super stol man. take off from my front yard, runway nill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVjOXELKDUU&feature=g-upl&context=G253184bAUAAAAAAAvAA

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i think you said,450 ft runway. rotor craft will do the trick.

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So will some of the stuff coming out of Zenith Aircraft. I'd take a fixed wing over any gyrocopter any day of the week

Thanks for all the ideas. When I win the lottery, I'll go for the R44 and have Turbo show me how to fly it from my back yard (surrounded on all sides by 100' douglas firs and a big oak tree -- would require a near perfect vertical ascent).

In the mean time, I think based on budget and mission, the best options are probably Kolb, Challenger or Quicksilver, but I'll need to do some more research on specific models and hopefully, find some rides before narrowing it down. I do like the Zenith, Just Aircraft and Fisher ideas, but I think something simpler would work for me.

Thanks again,
bill

If an added comment encourages you to go a certain way, I will suggest the Zenith line. The fast build kits of the 750 two passenger or the 801 four passenger planes are made for your take-off conditions. The aluminum construction is similar to the RV line, but easier because of the rivets used. I am building the 801 and company support is great. Ken Johnson

hope you hit the loto and get a helo. keep us posted on your adventure. Attachment 1471

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Originally Posted by Spindrift

. However, I am a bit nervous given that a good friend of mine, who is a much more accomplished pilot than I, balled one up on his first flight after purchase, even after transition training. Luckily he wasn't injured, but the rebuild is taking quite a while.

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Do not be quick to blame the gyro. For example, if your friend took tail wheel training and then "balled up" a cub, would you be just as nervous about a cub being safe, or would you figure that the pilot made some kind of mistake since the cub has a good reputation?

I am not a gyroplane pilot as yet, but will be in the spring. The latest edition of gyros are much better designed then the early samples from Benson. The same is true of the early ultralights, so don't let "old wives" tales stop you from doing due diligence. Do your own research and get info from actual pilots who are currently flying the model that you are interested in. Don't listen to those who have never owned or flown for many hours, what they are condemning. The most economical airplanes I have owned over the past 48 years have all been the ones that everyone says are bad. i.e. Tri Pacer, Pacer (flying bricks), Cessna 175 (piece of junk engine) etc. I have found all these stories to be untrue, but thank them for making the price much lower because of the bad press.

you can keep track of the gyro world here. http://www.rotaryforum.com/ these are the dirt bikes of the sky. go out and blast around.

If you decide that you don't need the passenger option that much, Look at the Weedhopper Ultralights. You can build one in a weekend without busting your butt, and mine will rotate in 90 feet on grass, at a 7,000 foot density altitude. I have flown it in 20 MPH quartering headwinds. For even greater crosswind components, I have a Hurricane Ultralight, that will rotate in 110 feet, sideslips just GREAT, (I have done touch and go's in 20MPH ninety degree crosswinds, side slipping in an almost vertical decent).

an EAA article just came out today on the Challenger http://www.eaa.org/experimenter/arti...ect_patrol.asp

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Originally Posted by taylorcraftbc65

If you decide that you don't need the passenger option that much, Look at the Weedhopper Ultralights. You can build one in a weekend without busting your butt, and mine will rotate in 90 feet on grass, at a 7,000 foot density altitude. I have flown it in 20 MPH quartering headwinds. For even greater crosswind components, I have a Hurricane Ultralight, that will rotate in 110 feet, sideslips just GREAT, (I have done touch and go's in 20MPH ninety degree crosswinds, side slipping in an almost vertical decent).

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The question I have is why would you do that in such a light aircraft? It seems like pushing your luck in my opinion as someone with a fair amount of experience in ultralights.

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Originally Posted by turbo

you can keep track of the gyro world here. http://www.rotaryforum.com/ these are the dirt bikes of the sky. go out and blast around.

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"Dirt bikes of the sky"....sounds like a good analogy except they are so much slower and less maneuverable than a dirt bike. The only thing they have in common is similar bad reputations for safety.

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Originally Posted by steveinindy

The question I have is why would you do that in such a light aircraft? It seems like pushing your luck in my opinion as someone with a fair amount of experience in ultralights.

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OK, let's put in language you will understand. I also fly aerobatics, free climb cliffs, base jump, cave dive, blue water sail, and ride a 150MPH sport bike. Let's just say that because of my not having a problem with getting in the face of the Elephant, I have done more living in my 62 years, than all the timid people on this planet combined could do in ten lifetimes.
HALS UND BEINBRUCH!!!

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Originally Posted by taylorcraftbc65

OK, let's put in language you will understand. I also fly aerobatics, free climb cliffs, base jump, cave dive, blue water sail, and ride a 150MPH sport bike. Let's just say that because of my not having a problem with getting in the face of the Elephant, I have done more living in my 62 years, than all the timid people on this planet combined could do in ten lifetimes.
HALS UND BEINBRUCH!!!

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AKA "Bals und Heinbruch!" ;)

jo - I still say a CH750 has far more value on every level, but just me~

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Originally Posted by jaksno

Just throwing in another vote/recommendation for the Zenith CH750. What engine do you have in your RV7? I'd want 110 (max power)HP. That should do 'er.

jo

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If you are looking for a 110 hp flying in a Zenith....look to Viking aircraft engine.com

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Originally Posted by diverdon4

If you are looking for a 110 hp flying in a Zenith....look to Viking aircraft engine.com

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Concur heartily!

jo

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Originally Posted by Spindrift

In the mean time, I think based on budget and mission, the best options are probably Kolb, Challenger or Quicksilver, but I'll need to do some more research on specific models and hopefully, find some rides before narrowing it down. I do like the Zenith, Just Aircraft and Fisher ideas, but I think something simpler would work for me.
bill

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Fist consider if you want single or two seat. Next sort out the side by side or tandem if a two seater. If the Challenger is a contender be sure to check out the CGS Hawk (my favorite and a good used TDer aircraft is currently for sale if you are interested but I understand you want to build). If single seat suits you and you really did mean ultralight, is is amazing that no one has mentioned the Hyper Light by Sorrel. It is just what you are looking for.