Dilemma (sort of) about where to start in my quest for the air...

Hi all, greetings from under the Class B shelf at KCVG, on the wild and wonderful KY side of the Ohio.

I had a much longer post prepared, but it was really complete overkill. I think it was more sorting my own thoughts out and making justifications to myself more than anything else. It wasn't needed. So, I'll keep this short. Well, ... short-ish.

After 25 years or so, I'm finally in a position to pull the trigger on getting myself into the air in a meaningful, sustainable way. Unfortunately, it won't be in the form I always envisioned, via a PPL. I've finally admitted to myself that, although I get paid reasonably well as a CRM archaeologist, we're kind of the red-headed stepchildren of the sciences and I just don't bring in enough disposable income to justify the expense of either a PPL or the rental fees to buy a fair number of hours at the yoke per year. Purchasing a standard category aircraft just isn't particularly likely either, except perhaps, *maybe*, something like a 50 year old Cessna or Piper, and even then, the cost of annuals, rolling maintenance costs, hangar rental, insurance, etc., all combine to make it not particularly feasible or realistic. I can't afford a purchase on par with a house. Just isn't in the cards, at least for the foreseeable future.

Dreams not shattered, but definitely warranted a reappraisal of what I wanted versus what I needed in a recreational hobby. And for me, being able to get meaningful time in the air and the hobby (at all) without breaking the bank seems the most important.

For a while, I was very seriously considering going the sport certification route, with subsequent purchase of a smaller LSA of the tube-tail, fat-ultralight variety, like a CGS Hawk or a Kolb, sizes I have some experience with from the 90s before the LSA revolution. This would fit my desires as a recreational pilot, allow some meaningful cross-country of a few hundred nm, allow me to take up a family member to get them involved and maybe even interested in aviation as well, maybe do some LSA camping, etc. Going the kit route would save me some money at the cost of a 6-12 month build time, a 16-hour FAA course would let me do my own annuals, and I could store such an aircraft at home instead of in a hangar (eventually anyway, not so much at the present). All great things, which is why it really appealed to me over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, researching the aircraft I would be interesting in, I'd still be looking at the cost outlay of a really nice new car, or modestly packaged new pick-up. Better than the cost of a house, and at least it's a potential possibility for me. But not right away. Maybe over a 3-5 year time frame.

Which brings me to the option I'm 99% sold on; PPG trike (I have a weak knee I can't really run on). Classified as ultralights under 103, the training is half as much as even a sports certificate and I can buy brand new gear for around $12k, maybe $15k with all the bells and whistles. A PPG, even with a trike cart, is much easier to store and transport, and there's not much maintenance to manage except for engine. The big sale for me is that it would let me get up in the air this year without breaking the bank, at the cost of a passenger, cross-country range, and some airspeed. But there's nothing stopping me from saving up for a sport license in a year or so, and maybe even upsizing to an LSA a few years after that. At least I'd be finally getting flight time instead of standing by patiently, as I have for the last 25 years.

Obviously, there are pros and cons to everything. I've made a big list for myself of the pros/cons for both LSA and PPG trike down to including specific maintenance issues in my selected models of interest, safety factors, re-sale potential, etc. I won't bore you with the details, but suffice it to say, for me the pros of PPG significantly outweigh the cons of LSA, whereas the cons of PPG are on similar footing to the pros of LSA.

Really though, beyond the pros and cons in my Excel table, it all comes down to this:
-I can go the PPG route and start flying this year, and maybe add on a Sport license and/or LSA upsize later.
Or,
-I can save for a few more years, get my Sport license, and make the choice to go LSA or PPG then.

I think I'd rather be actively participating in recreational aviation while making a decision about upsizing, rather than staying on the sidelines any longer. Call it pessimism, but I'd strongly suspect that if I wait, I'll be in this exact same position in two years, four years, 10 years... Time to do my business or get off the pot, as they say. I've watched my late-30s roll into my early-40s while waiting for the right time and circumstances; I REALLY don't want to see my mid- to late-40s rolling into 50 as I quietly debate this over and over in my head, on the ground.

Anyhow, I'm just curious what others in a similar position have decided for themselves, what went into your decisions, etc. I'm sure I can't be the only one in EAA for whom disposable income is a little tighter than ideal for our aerial aspirations!

Thanks for reading (if you made it this far!) Sorry for the long-windedness!

Jason

There's certainly nothing wrong with going to an ultralight to get in the air. And I'd suggest that starting earlier might be a good way to go, since I've seen too many people who waited 'til retirement (or something else major) before starting flying or buying an RV or trying some other major hobby/endeavor, only to find they either didn't live that long or their lives were cut short so they didn't have long to enjoy it, or they wound up with disabilities that hindered their plans.

So given your comments above, I'd say go for the PPG and learn, possibly with the thought of changing later, but also keeping in mind that there are lots of folks in ultralights who are there just for the joy, and many who were fully licensed that ALSO took up ULs without giving up regular aircraft, so go for it -- you'll likely be glad you did.

Go for it! PPG is a lot of fun, as are other ultralights. It's a very different scene from airplanes, though there is a lot of overlap, many PPGers are also airplane pilots, or become airplane pilots.

I would echo what Larry said: get in the air however you can, and you may find that a relatively cheap PPG or ultralight will scratch enough of your aviation itches to make you happy long term. As you pointed out, you can always get higher level training and upgrade aircraft in the future, and you can sell your first aircraft to help finance that.

I don't know your situation, but it sounds similar to where I was several years ago. I had a lot of interest in building, owning and flying my own plane, but lacked the resources to do it. I made a decision that I was going to make it happen, and set about ordering my life around that goal. I examined everything I did that involved an expense and really thought about its importance to me. I was amazed how quickly I was able to save real money just by applying a little discipline.

I dropped my $100+/mo cable TV and have never looked back; there's more than enough content about my hobbies and interests on YouTube for free, and I've found that I get a lot more enjoyment from learning about those things than watching contrived dramas. Full disclosure: I'm not much interested in sports.

I cancelled my expensive cell phone plan at one of the big-name carriers and switched to one of the pre-paid Mobile Virtual Network Operators. My bill is $25/mo for unlimited talk and text with 400Mb of data. I'm not a heavy data user (I used 175Mb in Feb), so it works fine for me. When my old phone died about a year ago, I bought a used iPhone 7 on eBay for $175 instead of going to the Apple store for an iPhone 26 Platinum XL King Ranch Edition.

There are little nickel-and-dime expenses all over that you can probably do without. Cut up your Starbucks card, don't eat out as much, stop going to movies so often, cut back your vacations, sell the car you're making payments on and buy a cheaper car for cash. You get the idea. Where there's a will, there's a way!

Thank you Larry, Dana and Eric! In retrospect, maybe it turns out I really did need some encouragement from folks that have been "there". I wasn't expecting it, but I feel very much more confident of my decision this afternoon. My aviation and flying interests are fairly unique among my coworkers, friends and peers, and I don't really have anyone to chat with about such things; oh sure, they all go "Wow, that sounds cool!" But then when I start talking the more down-to-earth side of things, they all tend to look at me funny and say "That sounds overly complicated and expensive. Why would you want to do that?" Mind you, they all have their own hobbies, some more expensive and involved than others and they're cognizant of that, so they've never been mean or dismissive with me. But I can tell they just don't get it, so I don't really chat with them much about it all.

To add to Eric's points, a big part of why I'm now able to act was by just taking care of some old outstanding debts and living within my means. I live pretty frugally as it is. For example, I've been fortunate in that although I'm a two-pot-a-day coffee fiend, I'm strictly a Maxwell House/Folger kind of guy with his own restaurant style fast brew Dunn, not a Starbucks fan. I usually don't eat out/order delivery much (2020 being an exception), or go to the movies, or go on big vacations, or have an expensive beer habit, etc. My phone is company paid, so no bill there at all. I drive a 20 year old truck, which admittedly doesn't get great gas mileage but I put on under 8,000 miles a year and it's owned free and clear and I do 90% of my own maintenance, and most of the time I'm on the motorcycle for my work commute anyhow, which is also owned free and clear. I do have a model railroading addiction/hobby, which can get awfully expensive in a hurry, but I (try to, mostly successfully) keep those expenditures in check. And there are still other things I can do. Cutting my $200/mo Spectrum cable/internet bill to just high-speed internet would save $150 a month (it was a great package when I signed up, but that honeymoon period ended after a couple of years and the bill jumped extraordinarily. Been meaning to cut that bugger for a while, as I only rarely actually watch TV). And cutting out a nicotine addition would save a TON per year, too. A few smaller things, like paying off a couple credit cards that I keep at about 30% utilization just to build my credit score, could also be paid off entirely and eliminated. And there are some things I could sell off, too. Like my skydive gear; as much as I'd love to use it again, until my knee gets replaced or repaired via surgery one day, I just don't see me making many (or any) jumps.

So on the financial side, I'm already doing what I can to better my savings without resorting to living like a hermit, and have been in that routine for a long while now (thank goodness!) Sure, that savings account doesn't go up as fast as I would like, but such is life. There are some rough spots I can still sort out, and I shall. And I'm sure dumb s**t will continue to happen, like a vehicle dying on me or the stepson needing a new French Horn or a septic system needing to get replaced, etc. The point is, I'm confident I can meet whatever goals I set, no matter what they may morph into in the future. I just have to keep them in perspective (which, I admit, is something of a challenge for me. I have a tendency to "think big" but often have to "go home" instead, lol.)

For now, these goals are pretty modest: Get in the air! PPG trike offers me a mode, and I'm tired of waiting for some mythical, sunnier day. Who knows what personal connections I'll make, friends I'll meet, opportunities I'll have? All I know is that if I don't act, those unknown connections and opportunities stay squarely at nil.

Thanks again for the support! I've been chatting with the training service I want to use for a while now; time to go ahead and schedule the training time once and for all.

Jason

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My aviation and flying interests are fairly unique among my coworkers, friends and peers, and I don't really have anyone to chat with about such things; oh sure, they all go "Wow, that sounds cool!" But then when I start talking the more down-to-earth side of things, they all tend to look at me funny and say "That sounds overly complicated and expensive. Why would you want to do that?"

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You're not alone -- most of us are (or have been ) in the same boat. Few people understand (or much care) about details of aviation beyond touting the virtues (or lack thereof) certain airlines or experiences, having a wrong concept of how airplanes fly, terminology and many other things -- it's a foreign language to them, just like golf is a foreign language to me.

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I do have a model railroading addiction/hobby, which can get awfully expensive in a hurry, but I (try to, mostly successfully) keep those expenditures in check.

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Me too. Curiously, I find that model railroading, ham radio, motorcycling and a couple of other things are quite common among pilots.

One suggestion, Jason -- one can learn a LOT from hangar flying (being careful to not believe certain tall tales, and to take along your "grains of salt" shaker), and one can often relieve a certain amount of the flying itch with hangar flying (temporarily), so if things work out so that you can, you might spend a Saturday or Sunday morning or afternoon (usually need at least somewhat warm weather, depending on the locale) hanging around the airport just to chat with people, perhaps stroll around the hangars or sit on a bench near the flight school, or some other opportunity dependent on the layout and customs at your particular airport. You'll make friends, learn a lot and maybe even get some opportunities that otherwise would never show up for you.

I specify the weekend for the above mainly because that's when you're the most likely to find others there, but mid-week occasionally has pleasant surprises, too.

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Originally Posted by lnuss

...one can often relieve a certain amount of the flying itch with hangar flying (temporarily)...

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I only wish it were so. The beautiful winter days this year have been brutal! My neighbors (PA-12, PA-18 and two C-180s) blast off on flying adventures, while I'm left behind in my garage because my Kitfox isn't finished yet. Then, as if to rub salt in the wound, they come home and show me photos on their phones, bragging about the beautiful little strip they found next to a river. Oh, the agony!

I understand, and I'm sorry you had that problem, Eric, but that's also why I said:

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can often relieve

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(emphasis added), rather than saying always. Of course you certainly have something to look forward to, and maybe sometime the neighbors will offer to let you ride along.

Yes, I know. It was an attempt at humor. Apparently it didn't work.

Sorry -- I've never been good at reading faces, body English or tone of voice through text, so guess I missed that. I bet there was a lot of truth in your post though, too -- I sure could identify with that at times.

No worries. That's the nature of online communication!

From the OP: "Anyhow, I'm just curious what others in a similar position have decided for themselves, what went into your decisions, etc. I'm sure I can't be the only one in EAA for whom disposable income is a little tighter than ideal for our aerial aspirations!"

I am not "in a similar position" but as a CFI in just about anything I have worked with more than a few individuals in similar situations. I will make a few comments.

!. Your summery and planning is excellent. Whatever you chose to do you will do well.

2. For PPG trike training chose you instructor well and be cautious. In PPL (conventional aircraft) it is common to quote a low price based on FAA minimums (40 hours) and ignore the typical student (60 hours). In PPG this translates into quoting the cost of training and ignoring the cost of repairs. The cost of broken props and cages can add up quickly. I know of several UL/Light Sport students that have given up or moved on to different equipment because of the cost of repairs.

3. Don't go the PPG route just because of a perceived cost difference. A PPL can be obtained for much less that just going to the typical flight school in some instances. Hang around the type of flying you really want and you may find some "open doors".

4. Start attending aviation functions. EAA and other club meetings. FAA safety seminars, etc. You will meet interesting people that can help you find that "open door" and you will learn a lot in the process.

5. Watch the pocketbook. I see students come out of the local flight school with $200 + dollars of books. All the study material you need is free on the internet if you know where to go. FAA.gov will keep you busy for the rest of your life. Google and read "See How it Flies".

From your OP I expect you are allready doing the above.

This is one of the few instances where I would subscribe to the "Buy once, cry once" theory of life choices - lol

In ONLY my personal opinion worth every penny it just cost you......

IF you choose a flight center that is CONVENIENT for you (long commutes make it tough to stay the course) and using 60 hours as an 'average' duration that works out to say $10,000? (or any other amount) IMHO save, beg or borrow that amount plus two thousand $$ more as a buffer and sign up for a full Private Pilot. You will NEVER regret being fully licensed and able to rent the most common GA aircraft out there most everywhere that rents aircraft - NOT the case if you go for say the Sport Pilot license instead - lower cost perhaps but VERY limited options beyond buying your own plane. Also expect to outlay 'about' $1500 in discretionary money each month for aircraft rental, fuel, insurance etc.etc.etc.

How's that advice working out for ME? I am 72 with a life-long passion for all things aviation, and do ALL my 'flying' courtesy of Microsoft Flight Simulator and some good accessories to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Eric Page

I only wish it were so. The beautiful winter days this year have been brutal! My neighbors (PA-12, PA-18 and two C-180s) blast off on flying adventures, while I'm left behind in my garage because my Kitfox isn't finished yet. Then, as if to rub salt in the wound, they come home and show me photos on their phones, bragging about the beautiful little strip they found next to a river. Oh, the agony!

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Don't worry, you're not alone... except in my case it's been too darn cold to fly my open cockpit Hatz, while my decadent friends with cabin heaters are out flying, landing on frozen lakes, and talking about putting skis on their planes. But Spring's coming...

For me, back in 1973 when I started working on my PPL, I would wash planes for flying time from the FBO, small town, small airport, I was 27 at the time and much more flexible and energetic, but it helped offset the cost. After 13 months I got my PPL and enjoyed flying for a couple of years. Then, like most people flying on a budget, life got in the way and I didn't fly for 35 years and when I wanted to start back, there were health problems and I had to go Light Sport. I really liked flying the 1946 Champ, even though it was a 40 plus mile trip to the only airport that had anything Light Sport, and many times the plane wasn't available, when I got there, for one reason or another,even though I had reserved it. After a couple of years of really local flying, I wanted to go a little farther, you know, really go somewhere. I took the chance and decided to go for my 3rd class medical again, and after a full 1 and 1/2 years dealing with the FAA, I got a Special Issuance for my 3rd class. After that I went Basic Med. To solve the cost factor of flying, I went in partners with 3 other people and we bought a 1965 Cessna 150. One of the partners, and great friend, is a CFI and uses the plane for instruction and that money will go for 100 hr. inspections, annuals and any other maintenance that is needed. It is a gamble, but so far, after 7 months of ownership we are still in the black and the plane flies great. At 74, I'm finally living the dream of having my own airplane and being able to fly practically anytime I want, the CFI is only instructing on the weekends so I have all week to get my fill. Did the $100 hamburger, BBQ, thing yesterday with 4 other airplanes to a destination I'd never been to before, it was great and I logged another 2.3 hrs. To quote C.S. Lewis, "You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream."
Bob

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Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY

This is one of the few instances where I would subscribe to the "Buy once, cry once" theory of life choices - lol

In ONLY my personal opinion worth every penny it just cost you......

IF you choose a flight center that is CONVENIENT for you (long commutes make it tough to stay the course) and using 60 hours as an 'average' duration that works out to say $10,000? (or any other amount) IMHO save, beg or borrow that amount plus two thousand $$ more as a buffer and sign up for a full Private Pilot. You will NEVER regret being fully licensed and able to rent the most common GA aircraft out there most everywhere that rents aircraft - NOT the case if you go for say the Sport Pilot license instead - lower cost perhaps but VERY limited options beyond buying your own plane. Also expect to outlay 'about' $1500 in discretionary money each month for aircraft rental, fuel, insurance etc.etc.etc.

How's that advice working out for ME? I am 72 with a life-long passion for all things aviation, and do ALL my 'flying' courtesy of Microsoft Flight Simulator and some good accessories to enjoy it.

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I disagree with "CHICAGORANDY" in post 13 above but that is me and he is he. This is me and I do not want to do any of my flying in Microsoft Flight Simulator. We are each individuals with different goals and desires.

One of my priorities was to move out of the Detroit and Chicago areas. Been there and done that. I live where there are interesting places to fly and interesting things to see. You can have your $100 hamburger. I'll put my money in gas and equipment. I also do not agree with borrowing to fly. Limit yourself to what you can afford and save for what you want. See my posts on HBA (homebuiltairplanes.com). There is good information in the light stuff area thread about Chip Irwin's Merlin Light Sport for expensive new stuff but not much more that the $12,000 suggested above. For the really inexpensive extreme see post #186 in the Peter Sripol thread (https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/f....34664/page-10).

Searching around you can possibly find a reasonable Ultralight or Light Sport for about $5,000 and then get help with the learning to fly part. I know of several good prospects depending on the budget but they are on the west coast. My son is about to pick up a high performance glider for just 20% more than that. Fixed wing ultralights are more difficult to find than PPGs but the training and experience will be more in line with your future fixed wing goals. On the other hand you will have fond memories of the PPG experience.

PS for CHICAGORANDY - If you are reading this pick a nice weekend in March and schedule three flights at Hinkley Soaring (HS). It will be $ well spent. Full disclosure. HS is one of my former employers. Good times and I still enjoy telling the Hanger Flying tails of old from the good old days there. Look for the photo of the DC-3 landing there if it is still on the wall.

OK - One war story. One of my former star (IFR) students was a MS employee. I swear he could have passed the IFR check ride on the first day of instruction. On the second day I saw his MS flight Simulator and it all made sense. He told me that if you take off from Chicago Midway and fly to Kankakee, IL you can drive (taxi) off the airport and up main street to the address of the originators of the program and you will find photos the the three programmers hanging on the office wall. I think that version is long gone but if any one finds the photos please post them here.

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Originally Posted by jedi

From your OP I expect you are already doing the above.

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Hi Jedi. Yep, absolutely, doing as much as I can to prep myself. Being in a regulatory business, we get pretty proficient at searching through government websites, and aside from the Gloin PPG book and an E6B, I'm not sure I ever actually spent money on aviation study materials. Everything is available online, including all my local VFR charts.

And EVERY PPL school I've seen quotes the bare minimum regulated flight time for their quote. Most of them are good at pointing out that it's very rare to complete a PPL in the minimum, though, and several even offer their students' average hours to use as a baseline for planning your costs. The bottom line is, the quote displayed prominently on screen is likely 30% low after factoring in an additional 20 hours or so of rental and instructor costs.

As for 3), PPG just for the perceived costs; no worries there. I've always loved parachute sports, and if it weren't for the bum knee I'd still be wracking up takeoffs in small aircraft but no landings. I enjoyed skydiving for the time under canopy, not really the free-fall. What I mean is, free-fall is fun and all, no doubt, but it was the canopy work that sucked me into the sport. PPG has been a fascination for years, and this isn't the first time I've seriously considered it as my path into aviation (was signed up for training in 2017 or 2018 but work projects got in the way, I had to cancel, and I cycled myself into the "well, maybe it's for the best" second-guessing routine.)

I should try to get myself to the smaller public fields, make some contacts, though. I live about 2 nm from the west end of Cincinnati (CVG) runway 27, so it's a bit of a drive to get out to places that I know offer instruction or at least have a strong GA presence. That's a good idea, thanks.

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Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY

Also expect to outlay 'about' $1500 in discretionary money each month for aircraft rental, fuel, insurance etc.etc.etc.

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While I completely agree that going PPL is most likely a sure-fire route that I wouldn't regret, and if disposable funds weren't as limiting of a factor at this stage in my life we wouldn't even be having this conversation, nevertheless funds are unfortunately a factor, and a significant factor at that. The $1500-ish per month for rentals and sundries is exactly my major issue with the PPL route. I could technically make such an expenditure happen, but that would literally be all my savings potential per month. I simply cannot responsibly put myself or my family into such a marginal situation, not for a recreational hobby anyway. As much as I might love to go this route, it just doesn't pass my personal cost analysis and I don't realistically see that changing anytime soon. A sport certificate with LSA rental/purchases is a little better in the cost analysis, but still would be a bit of a stretch. And as you noted, renting LSAs is not nearly as simple as renting GA, so there's a clear negative to that cost-savings positive, at least until I'd be in a position to buy/build my own. (Not to mention, I HATE the idea of renting on principal. I hate that for the next few years, the wife and I have to rent our home. Might as well just wad up some $100 bills and light them on fire for as much long-term good renting does me. We're locked at the moment by school selection, but fortunately only for a few more years.)

Of course, as was noted, there often can be other avenues into aviation aside from a school. I may not be able to afford the glass slippers, but dang-nabbit, I can shoot the bull with folks who already have their ticket to the ball. Who knows what opportunities might come out of casual conversations at the field? I can clean bugs from windshields and oil grime from cowl flaps with the best of them, or mow grass, sweep hangars, whatever. And if PPG can give me a convenient excuse to start lurking at the field and building those relationships, so be it. I dig holes for a living with a shovel or trowel and my extended family to this day cannot understand that I'm not hunting for dinosaurs; we archaeologists are used to a bit of displaying our meagerness and not getting embarrassed, lol! (I jest, of course. We're certainly not Indiana Jones, but neither are we the "burger-flippers" of the sciences either. Archaeology definitely pays the bills and I live comfortably, just not enough to be particularly care-free. And of course my own stupidity with money in my youth put me in such a situation, which could be significantly better today if I had made different choices decades ago. Live and learn.)

So, my plan remains to get in the air by the method within my reach at this time. If I were 20 again, it'd be by hook or by crook to get in the air; but I'm not and other life responsibilities prevent me from being able to take that particular bull called PPL by the horns. Which is fine. I'm perfectly content with PPG being my starting point, and I know I will get a ton of enjoyment out of it, meet plenty of new people, learn a lot.

As I said, who knows what the future holds? I'm still relatively young, there's lots of time to expand upon the skills I start learning in PPG. I'm still planning that in a few years, I'll get that Sport license, and maybe look to buy an LSA. Or not buy the LSA and stick with PPG. Or upgrade to a tandem PPG. Or skip Sport and go straight to PPL if the right circumstances come about. Who knows? For now, I just want to get my foot in the door. Preferably without loosing the leg in the process, lol.

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Originally Posted by robert l

At 74, I'm finally living the dream of having my own airplane and being able to fly practically anytime I want, the CFI is only instructing on the weekends so I have all week to get my fill. Did the $100 hamburger, BBQ, thing yesterday with 4 other airplanes to a destination I'd never been to before, it was great and I logged another 2.3 hrs. To quote C.S. Lewis, "You are never to old to set another goal or to dream a new dream."
Bob

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That's awesome Robert, congrats! I'll get myself there someday!

I couldn't agree more with the Lewis quote. The moment I decide to stop learning new things and bettering myself with new goals and dreams, and maybe more importantly, the moment I stop putting in the effort to reach for those goals, that's the moment I'm just sucking up oxygen. I've never handled listlessness well, and don't expect I ever could (thank goodness!)

Quick update:

Trigger, pulled. Deposit made, slated to start training at Midwest PPG on June 12th.

Thanks again, all. You helped me sort my thoughts and formalize my decision, and gave me some good food for thought for the future.

Congrats - safe flights and have fun learning.

Hey, great! Just keep your lessons as close together as possible, to minimize the extra time you'd have to spend on review from one lesson to the next.

I am going to be at Oshkosh this year and I see they are going to have both flying lesson and simulator chatting up. I have a specific need. My inner ears have absolutely no exposure to attitude other than bolt upright while moving pilot controls. In addition I have laser sculpted eyeballs which is my previous excuse for not pursuing piloting. At this point, recently, I have over 750 hours of AI on my choices of flight ops in MS-FS 2020. I am only interested in actual flying and simulator training in a cab 6-DOF with a monitor. If both of these hardware items (airplane/simulator) were the same that would definitely reduce my resistance to pure Simony. A dollar total under $500.00 for one hour of both would --- My feet have never touched rudder pedals as even to set a Pitts S-2 taking off from Lakeway, Texas about to hit a building I would turnoff the AI and trust the twist on my Freedom 2.4 that has flown many hours of MS FSX in helicopters to help my son understand the need to calibrate his joystick before sliding a Bell off the roof of a building because it is misbehaving.