Can we PLEASE have "North" at the top of the map? Everybody I mentioned this to during the week was in agreement that having "North" on the right margin was confusing to everybody.
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Can we PLEASE have "North" at the top of the map? Everybody I mentioned this to during the week was in agreement that having "North" on the right margin was confusing to everybody.
That's odd...on my map North is to the left?
Yep, my bad... it's on the left margin. Same but different... should be on the top unless RWY 36 is actually 27 then just leave it the way it is. I guess the Oshkosh app designer put the map together also.
As long as I have been going to AV, the map has alway been oriented that way. Main gate at the bottom, airshow flightline at the top. Seems pretty simple to me, warbirds to the left, ultralights to the right.
Seems OK to me. Left and right as you enter the gate and walk to four corners. I think “north up” might be more confusing.
I also prefer North up but of more use would be a map of booths and tents. Vendors use these numbers to say where they are but I never found a map of them and had to wander. Or now that most people carry GPS devices we could use latitude and longitude.
There is a recycled paper "catalog" they hand out with the camping package and maybe at the information booths which shows all of the vendors by booth. The app also has that information.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbright
It was called the camper/vistor guide. Listed all the vendors and where their # location was. Handed out by the thousands at every entry point and every EAA shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
The only map I have ever seen that does not have north at the top! I agree!
Go to any amusement park, the map is always oriented from the main gate being at the bottom.Quote:
Originally Posted by gbrasch
As for my own experience, i have seen lots of maps without north at the top. Many of the National Park Service maps do not have up/north. Not all Disney park maps are north/up, either. There are others. Further, when actually USING maps, in the air or on the ground, I rarely have North at the top edge of the map as I am looking at it -- unless I am going north. Rather, the map is "oriented" (which means "to the east," which just goes to show that what we think of as standard was not always that way.) Anyway, in the ten years I have been going to Oshkosh, the top of the map being east never confused me. It never even crossed my mind that it should be any different.
Your own personal experiences may vary.
First time at OSH? I just replaced the 2108 map with the 2019 version and the compass rose is in exactly the same place it always is. The flight line is oriented along 18/36. Another great clue. Once you have that figured out once, what's the problem?
As a tram driver, I will have to ask, why even give them out ? I have seen many in the trash, and am always getting asked at the stops, "where is such and such, which way is north, south. Does anyone these days know how to read a map ? Most of the people I have to dodge around, are walking head down and looking at phones anyway.
I go every year, so I don't need the map very much any more. But, my first several years, the map was really helpful. Given that probably half of the attendees are not regulars, it is probably still a good idea to provide printed maps. Or, you could post a couple of dozen large maps at key points around the grounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyfixer8
Maybe they need to strike up a collaboration with ForeFlight, that way people can just waypoint their destination and follow the magenta line. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by skyfixer8
Wayfinding map signs around the (central) grounds area would be good. Simplified, "You are Here" type. Co-located with tram info maybe. As for the paper maps, the show's centerline is the main entrance along Celebration Way. This faces the show line. Infrequent/new visitors are generally looking this way when they enter and start trying to figure out what's happening. So, looking east should be map top/up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
I rotated mine 90 degrees clockwise. :P
Jack Pelton was on the local news during AirVenture week or thereabouts, and was talking about, that EAA has hired a company to find out on how to better communicate about all that is offered at EAA & AirVenture.
Maybe they will recommend that North should on the top of all of the AirVenture maps.
Lol... I'd be disappointed if he didn't! Maybe I'll put together a draft for him with North at the top for presentation purposes. Although this could potentially represent a radical departure from what many have grown accustomed to from years past.
Why on earth would anybody want North on top of the grounds map? Want to see really confused people standing inside the gate going "Which way is north??" Right now, you open the map, and if standing inside the main gate, you can tell exactly which direction you should want to go, right, left, or straight ahead to the flightline. You put North at the top, more people will be lost than you North at the top seekers. If you want North at the top, rotate the map, done!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrongway Feldman
Or simply eliminate any compass references altogether? Most folks actually ask how to "get to" specific areas of interest anyway without regard for true direction.
THAT'S WHY THE TRAMS STOP EVERY 10 FEET! TO ANSWER QUESTIONS WHEN A PROPERLY LAID OUT MAP WOULD'VE DONE THE JOB! Maybe you're right... just eliminate any directional reference and hope for the best... might work until some millennial drives across the runway in their golf cart with earbuds in. FEDS would come down hard on a event that otherwise does a great job self-policing. Just open ANY aviation map, WAC, Sectional, Airport diagram, Jeppesen 10-9 page, and it's all North UP! Maybe it's not about aviation nuts flying in anymore and those who do attend just drive-in and simply don't care. This was my first Oshkosh for my wife and I and we loved it. I have a hunch however,.. that the people everyone complained about slowing the TRAMS down asking, "where does this tram go" were probably first timers too. A real map would go a long ways. The APP is way bad. If you recommend using the app then you weren't using it. It lacked on several high points and so deserves it's own thread. Wait.. I think it already earned one!
I 100% disagree. The people who are asking directions, at least the vast majority of them, either don't have a map on them or haven't bothered to open it up. I volunteered in Warbirds and we were given extra maps to hand out to people who asked where they were or which way was (X). Not a one had looked at a map. No big deal, provide them directions, hand them a map (better, show them on the map and orient them to terrain features) and wish them a great Airventure.
Which way is north is completely irrelevant. Really, do you think the average -- or even the exceptional person using those maps has any idea of which way is north? Do you think they also have a compass and are shooting azimuths? Come on, it is all visual reference and THE visual reference for people coming in the gate is straight ahead, which happens to be East. (Before you chime in, yes, I know that every iPhone has a compass app.)
Honestly, if "North Up" is the biggest complaint, then Airventure must be a resounding success.
This was my solution a couple years ago.
So, here is my proposal.
There is a need for an orientation tent, for new AirVenture attendees.
Something like a looping 15-20 minute video of how-to navigate the entire EAA AirVenture grounds.
Example: Buy wristband, enter main gate, enter orientation tent near main gate.
You can read the entire THREAD HERE.
I thought it was a good idea but I really don't know what the powers at be thought of the idea.
It is always good to get the lay of the land first, so you can get your bearing. Just say'n
My Garmin GPS has north up or heading up. I think most choose heading up. Especially on approach to land.
Well back in the old days, 70's that is, we just turn the chart which ever way we were headed. I know, it's too simple !Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Berson
Bob
The "it's always been this way why change now" crowd has won... I give. I'll join the masses and just stop a tram for directions. Beats turning my map 90 degrees and trying to read the print from top to bottom. Well done fellas! See you at the tram... I'll be that guy talking to the driver.
Well Con, I never gave it much thought, but I do wish there were signs that read, YOU ARE HERE !Quote:
Originally Posted by Contrailing
Bob, which way is North, doesn't matter, just get on the tram !
In my last few years as a conductor I've found it expedient and more helpful to begin answering the question "Where does/ which way does THIS tram go?" by simply asking "Where are trying to go?" Which is really what they want to know. And then providing them with the correct info on how to reach their destination du jour.
I 100% agree that plentiful, easy to read and informative signage is crucial to the efficient people moving process.
No map needed... Use my method for our 10-day stays at Oshkosh for the last 21 years. Wake up, walk to the flight line where you hear all the planes. Turn right, walk all the way down to South 40. Look at planes, stop when interested. Vintage and ultralights on your right. Turn around, walk all the way down to Warbirds. Look at planes, stop when interested. Turn left, walk through North 40. Turn around, head back though experimental parking/camping, forum buildings and innovation area. Cut through to main square and exhibits. Look at new, expensive planes and plane gadgets. Turn around, head back to flight line. Repeat 4x a day minimum. Take a break during airshow if desired. Repeat daily, jump on a tram as needed that is going the same direction you are walking. If it heads a different direction as some point, hop off and see what's in that area.
Every year I claim I am going to create a daily schedule and really organize my day for efficiency and maximum experience. I show up on Day 1 and toss it in the trash and start wandering. I probably cross Randy's tram path at least 30 times a day. He probably thinks I am lost...
Bob... the glorious 70's. One in the same I bet. Well I too used to turn charts in the cockpit when I had nothing else to navigate with. However, this is 2019 and my map is digital, shows my CHTs (cylinder head temps), fuel consumption, TFRs, parachute jumping areas, airport taxi diagrams and where you are on them, etc. The point of it all is merely, and grossly understatted... progress. Say it with me... "PROGRESS". When the EAA map guy runs to the print shop how hard is it to say, "map north this time"? My wife is a non- pilot who can read a map better than most and she asked numerous times at OSH, "who made this"? "Oh, but all the EAA supporting Winnebagos enter from the west and after driving through several states will now be lost after entering the Oshkosh gate"! Maybe, after having Oshkosh on my bucket list, I never was the demographic EAA caters to. I have lots of summer destinations for my home built, just feel silly now having thought Oshkosh was one of them.
OK, I'll say it, PROGRESS !!! My wife says I'm stuck in 1968, but I do love my Fore Flight, and in the car, the gps. I traveled for my work, construction, for 50 years and until 2009, I used maps, I still keep an almanac in the truck, just in case. I'm pretty much low and slow, Cessna 150, 172 and a Champ, all rentals but I bring my own navigation stuff, I really don't know how I got along without it. A few years ago I bought one of those walking gps's, it traces your walking path, but I never figured out how to use it. Sigh !