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In SA magazine if possible... Looking for different perspectives from all sources... I've looked in all the usual spots including AOPA, and elsewhere on line... But I'm looking for EAA member's experience, too.
Thanks for any links or response..
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I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, and my only experience is a good one: Years (1975) ago I rented a B-33 Debonair for a trip from New Mexico to Kentucky and back. It's a nice flying aircraft, just a lower powered (225 HP in the one I flew) straight tail Bonanza, and handling is typical Bonanza. So, other than speed, it's as nice for a travel machine as any other Bonanza. A year or so later I rented an F-33A (285 HP) for the same trip, and other than performance the trip was about the same.
So are you looking for restoration info, or what to look for before purchase, or what it flies like, or PIREP, or... ??
Yes to all of the above... Well, maybe not restoration...Quote:
Originally Posted by lnuss
I'm an old, rusty pilot. Not yet current again (thanks to COVID 19). Who might try to own a plane, and actually use it for travel.
An RV (land yacht) doesn't appeal to me, and the costs of operation seems remarkably similar
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You want to go over to Beachtalk and probably also join the American Bonanza Society.
I'm on beech talk won't join society until I own one...
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I don’t think I have ever seen an article in Sport Aviation. I have only flown a V-tail. Bomanza’s are great airplanes!
There are a bunch of Bonanza articles in the Sport Aviation Archive: https://www.eaa.org/eaa/news-and-pub...iation-archive
Thanks for the link... That gets me to the archive search I sought... Alas, no articles on Debonairs... Plenty of Bos ...Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
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Didn't the AOPA purchase, restore and raffle off a Debbie back in 90's? Seems there were progress stories in their magazine every month for a year.
Think of a Debonair as a Bonanza that just has a lower powered engine than the same vintage Bonanzas -- otherwise they're essentially the same aircraft. So a Bonanza article still mostly applies, except for takeoff, climb and cruise performance figures, which will be a little lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakchas
That and the straight tail (obviously). They started out not being all that different (and ended up that way as well). The early 60's Debs and Bos both had IO-470s, The Debs had the 225HP model for most of the run (with an option for the IO-520/285HP in 66/67). The Bos until 1965 had the 250 or 260HP IO-470 and then moved up to the IO-520. After 67, the Debs just became the model 33 Bonanzas. By 1970 they'd given up on V tails entirely with the model 36 Bo.
Yeah... And I have yet to read all of those articles. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve
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Well, there were the, what, 225s in the Bo... same as the Navion?Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
I still love the Navion. And it's probably the "coolest looking" GA aircraft of it's time... To me. But everybody got "Jetson dreams" with that fork tailed [emoji48] and ruined a beautiful thing....
Lol
It's all subjective... in the looks department
But it looks like the Deb has a better payload than the Navion. And, it doesn't have magnesium ruddervators to worry about... I think the ailerons might be magnesium, though....
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The early V tails had E-225's in them, as did some of the Navions. The 225 in the Debonair was an IO-470J. This is an engine that was never seen in a Navion. The IO-470C that some of the V-tails had was also a Navion engine, as were the IO-520's (don't know which submodel the Bos used, the Navion used a -BB). My first IO-550-B came out of a brand new A36 Bo.
The Bo's were always going to out perform the Navions of the same HP because of a couple of issues. You are correct, the Debs usually have a lighter empty weight and a higher gross than the Navion, about a hundred pounds in both directions. Of course in my biased opinion the Navion has more comfort and the stouter gear and bigger tires are real nice when operating off grass.
Ron, I know you own and love your Navion. I know they're built "hell for stout." And I love the looks of em too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
They're still on my list, but somehow seem less practical... Parts and supply wise... That may be a wrong opinion... And it wouldn't be my last... I know the society supports them. And there's still a type certificate holder out there (though I hear that, and all the tooling is for sale).
The Deb is a bit newer... And "seems" better supported...
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The Debs came out in 1960. Navions were built from 1946 up to the early 70's (though they stopped the canopy models in the sixties about the same time Beech killed off the 33 and the 35). Of course Beechcraft continued as a going concern up until a few years ago when they were split off to Hawker and Textron. The Navion "factory" kind of disappeared for decades. The people who own the type certificate now are no friend to the existing customer base.
There probably ten times as many Bonanas made as Navions over the years. There were something like 1100 things branded as Debonair (which is about half the number of Navions).
Gives me more to think about... I really appreciate your insight and knowledge...Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
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We have had a C33 Debonair since 1989. We had a Warrior for two years and wanted something faster; luckily we found this Debonair available right on our field. It has an IO470K, and we are on the third one, the original and two factory rebuilts. The airplane is sturdy, dependable, comfortable, fast enough for us, lands nicely, and it flies like a Bonanza, i.e., great. (I've only flown a few other high performance singles, so I'm prejudiced and can't really compare the feel and responsiveness to others, except the 210 that felt like a truck.) Climb and cruise performance are less than the IO520 and IO550 models, of course, but enough for us. I plan on 145 knots and generally burn about 13 GPH in cruise. We still have steam gauges and the old Collins radios (with a couple exceptions) that the previous owner had installed. Eventually we'll evolve into the 21st century. We have an STEC autopilot. I have only flown a v-tail one time, but it felt no different than our Debonair.
Don't want to get into a religious discussion, but if you want to fly lean of peak you might be disappointed with a 470-powered Debonair. Some 470 owners, including myself, have found theirs will not run smoothly lean of peak no matter what injectors you have or what technique you use.
You are right that the Debonair is pretty well supported. The ABS is a great resource and will point you to vendors and service people who can help find almost anything you need. Beech parts can be fabulously expensive, but I have never had to pay truly excessive prices for anything more or less routine like fuel pumps, a landing gear motor overhaul, vacuum pumps, starters, and so forth. There are lots of Bonanzas in salvage yards, and ABS knows who the reliable sources are for more obscure used parts. Lots of people seem to know how to work on Bonanzas, simply because there are so many of them around. Not like Cessna, but still service is available almost everywhere. We choose to use a shop that specializes in Bonanzas even though it's out of town. We're confident everything gets done efficiently and right.
The 470 engine support lags the 520 and 550 a bit, for example, engine cooling. In my opinion the original baffle system in those older Debonairs and Bonanzas was a terrible design. Didn't realize it until we got a GEM multi-cylinder display and saw how hot it was running. Newer, much better aftermarket baffle systems were available for the 520 for many years before D'Shannon Aviation finally came out with one for the 470 (designed by an ABS technical consultant). I had one installed and it is a huge improvement. Best upgrade ever.
ABS's training program BPPP is good. Online (and occasionally live) ground school plus several hours of flight with one of their instructors. Depending on where you live BPPP instructors may be readily available or hard to reach. They have been uniformly good in my experience. There's also a private training outfit that is very good, though expensive.
I've flown a number of V-35s and F-33s (besides the Debonair once), even the same model year ones, and I, too, cannot tell any difference in handling. If you were plopped inside the cockpit without knowing which you were in, and if someone had removed the tell-tale labels, you'd not be able to tell which you are in.Quote:
I have only flown a v-tail one time, but it felt no different than our Debonair.
A Bonanza has well balanced control feel, and isn't as heavy as the Cessnas or some Pipers, and is very nicely, smoothly responsive. It's ailerons feel lighter than a Bellanca Viking though not quite as responsive. It has a solid "Cadillac" feel, too, and with the proper approach speed and a normal flare, it almost always lands smoothly -- that ground cushion works well for it. On the later models (the ones with the 175 mph gear speed, I'd recommend not using above about 160 mph for longevity) you also have a good speed brake to allow you to keep your speed up longer on approach than most, while still being able to get down in good order.Quote:
can't really compare the feel and responsiveness to others,
The above comments apply equally to the Debonair.
Thanks alot for the last 2 responses... They are exactly the type of info I'm looking for.... And a lot more like it...!
Join ABS. If you think it is too expensive, it is cheap in the grand scheme of aviation. The are great people, and their knowledge base is incredible! Tom Turner and staff can tell you anything you want to know about Debonairs.
Type clubs are critical, valuable resources. Once I'm committed to a type for purchase, I'll join.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Blum
It's not that it's too expensive; rather, not practical unless ownership is imminent or already the case.
I am not a member of the Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, or Cobra societies for the same reason.
i disagree, I joined the ANS several years before I got my Navion. They were an invaluable resource in my planning and ultimate aircraft search.
"It's not that it's too expensive; rather, not practical unless ownership is imminent or already the case."Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
You seem to agree with me, then.
I'm a long way from purchasing an aircraft. And in the end, it may not be at all.
But, once and if a make and model are chosen to be my first and last aircraft... I will join the type association, society, and club.
If I were single... And younger. I might make a less calculated decision with decades of future ahead... I don't have that luxury. If I did, I might build.
First, if you're really interested in information on Debonairs through EAA, you should search/ask the Vintage division/magazine. That source is much more likely to have information that you are looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakchas
As for ABS, they are by far and away the best type club. I have been a member of Cessna Pilots Association, Cessna Flyer, Cessna Owner, Mooney Ambassadors, Mooney Aircraft Pilots Association, EAA Lifetime, OX-5 and more. Yes, I am an airplane geek. Instead of getting one or two opinions on this forum (though I like these :), $75/year or $130 for 2 years will get you instant and unlimited access to 1000s of options over decades of time on all of Beech's propeller products and all summarized just for you. In other words, it's like buying a book with all the information that you'll every need with an index that is infinitely detailed and current to the moment. It also includes all the POHs and, I believe, all the parts manuals (through Textron).
They can tell you which models, engines, airframes to stay away from. What to look for on pre-buys, etc.
I am an ABS member, though I may never be an owner. Oh, btw, their training (online and at conferences) is second to none!
Hope you find your perfect for you airplane.
Thanks for all of your info, Ron. I do appreciate it. And, I too hope to find a perfect airplane for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Blum
Right now, ownership is a conscious dream... Well, some might call it a daydream....
Certainly not a practical thing without a complete lifestyle change... From happy at home to vagabond... Travelling the continent, occasionally sleeping under the stars...
I've known some that have "sold their souls for world travel" (their words). And lived quite simply to meet the goals of their avocation.
I have to decide to do that, or remain a renter...
Dreams are what it is all about … and where it starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by oakchas
I have designed, built, rented, flown other people's airplanes and owned a C175/P172D for a while. All were good at the right time. I also have good friends that sold their possessions, bought a mobile home and have been on the road for the last few years. They love it!
Best of all to you.
When it comes to not owning but building something and promoting something that does not exist in metal form I can put my current needs in my pocket on a thumb drive. I lost my house in 1973 and ceased renting in 1983. I parked my car for the last time in 1987 to wait for hydrogen fuel cells. I once had a solid model of a Bonanza that I thought was too heavy once I installed a .049 Thimble drome on it with a nylon propeller. It soaked the dope and did not really shine up and the control line fittings got hooked to some lines and a handle just as a customer on my paper route gave me her son's model airplanes from a few years back. They included a carved whatever with a nice big fuel tank and a Champion 1 cubic inch engine that had ignition points and provisions for a battery and coil but was converted to glow plug. It needed braided control lines. I dropped all ideas of flying the Bonanza and alos flew a big yellow biplane that needed something bigger than the .074 OK Cub I could now afford. So I never got into free flight and it was decades later that I fully approached radio control though there was a very nice Piper TRi-Pacer that only need covering and a radio in my gifted treasure. Would a McCoy 1/4 have been good enough? I looked at various fare in Newark, New York in a real hobby shop.
Good job! Kudos!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndsegment