LEO's are not immune to misbehavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/iso...-sexual-abuse/
BJC
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LEO's are not immune to misbehavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/iso...-sexual-abuse/
BJC
The study showing 40 cops guilty of child rape, murder etc, is bad but some perspective: There are about 900,000 police in U S. They kill about 1357 people per year and lose about 126 police killed per year. It is hard to find accurate figures, for instance police report only "justified killings" which is given as 410.
On the downside, police live in an atmosphere of violence in some places like south Chicago, maybe Philly, etc. And they may see violence as THE cure to most crimes and problems, even carrying over to domestic lives. And while they are supposed to be law enforcement officers, in some cases they seem to have more respect for order part of law and order, thus an affinity for being the authority figure no matter what the law actually is.
There must be a lot of decent cops, but there are some rotten ones that slip through the seams and sometimes avoid justice for serious actions which would be major crimes if done by the public. If the public shot an unarmed cop with his hands up or running away, dont think they would get away with the excuse that the citizen "thought" he was in danger.
I dont care much for many undercover narcotics cops, but lo and behold at Osh this year got to meet a man who had been just that. I didnt get time to talk much to him about it, but he seemed like a nice guy.
I know 2 guys who are cops, one is a pilot parks 2 planes over and I used to rent an apt to one. I live an small mostly peaceful town with few real violent crimes and cops are extra patient, even when dealing with the occasional armed or nutty person. I cant recall them ever shooing or killing anyone.
I do not think that SSMDIVE intended to infer anything negative. We do as a society place a lot of trust in our police officers and hold them to a much higher standard than the rest of us. The vast majority are more than worthy of that trust. How many of us are willing to get up and go to work every day dealing with the worst of our society, knowing there is at least a better thn average chance we will never get home to our loved ones ever again. I can only say thank you for what you do to make things better for the rest of us. You have my respect !!.
Please excuse my ignorance but what does a Zodiac sign have to do with your depth of character? ;>)Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
Seriously though, you are saying-with a straight face no less-that a cop equates with good character and exemplary behaviour. Clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to current affairs. I've got a bridge in New York that I own that I'm willing to sell to you. Call me.
No, I didn't take it that way. I think his point was is that he'd already undergone and passed levels of scrutiny far beyond what the YPP would require. Just as others have pointed out having high security clearances, which involve even more stringent assessment of the character of an individual. When they're going to approve someone when their misdeeds could cause "grave harm to the security of the United States," sexual crimes will not be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
But to take the EAA's side here, working the cross-organization coordination necessary to USE these other sources of character evaluation would be impossible.
But, Floats is perfectly correct. Alistair MacLean put it best... "There are prison in America and cushy hotels in Moscow filled with people who had top-secret security clearances." EAA's YPP will likely catch the "Chester the Molester" types, but these people are usually caught before they become prosperous enough to be able to buy an airplane to fly Young Eagles. The danger is in the clever con men who pick their targets well and are able to avoid detection. These are not stupid men unable to control their impulses...in any case, their impulses are more about domination and control than mere sex. These people are far more likely to rise in society enough to be able to afford things like airplanes, but the YPP won't raise any flags because no one's caught them yet.
When I was 13 years old, I joined a youth organization. The first adult in the group I met became my mentor for a number of years. A long time later, he was convicted as a serial child sexual predator. I was never a victim, and never witnessed anything that indicated such abuse was occurring. But when I read the newspaper accounts of what had happened back in my era, I could read it and say, "That was probably XXXX" even though the paper didn't identify the witnesses. The reasons behind a lot of puzzling things from that period had become horribly clear.
And folks, the YPP wouldn't have caught this guy. He picked his victims carefully (all from broken homes), and was a master in manipulation. None of his victims talked for *about 35 years*. Sure, the YPP would pick him up NOW, but he's got another sixty years left in his sentence.
So... once again, the YPP exists only to give EAA some legal protection. It gives a false level of security. It's not going to catch the ones people *truly* have to scared of.
Ron Wanttaja
Nonsense, you just read it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by dougbush
Ron and a few others got my comment. I had a secret clearance in the military (and had my data stolen in the OPM breach). I have 10 year background checks from the govt every 5 years.... And I have background checks from my department yearly. Yes, there are cops that are criminal, and there are average Joes that are close to saints.... I however go through more and more complete vetting than the EAA program, unlike the average Joe.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
As others have pointed out, the YE BGC is mostly worthless in the real world.
And as as others have stated, this YE program does NOTHING to protect the pilot or the local chapter. It is to cover the HQ and the HQ only.
And the LEO bashing... Well, that's one reason I don't tend to tell people....Once again, I learn that lesson.
So, all of the Security Theater for YPP, provides nearly no real protection, eg, it would catch only the already convicted molester, yet drives away the Protectors of our Society.
Well done, EAA Lawyers!
i think our Chapter, which is home to a large number of high clearance personnel, has lost about half its YPP participants.
There you go again. You are the special people and we are the average Joes. I have high respect for police, but I'm not proud of your disdain for the citizens you serve. I also have high regard for EAAers. Whether LEOs are more trustworthy than EAAers has not been studied, so you have insulted us.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
"Makin' mock of uniforms that guard you in your sleep,Quote:
Originally Posted by dougbush
is cheaper than them uniforms, and they're starvation cheap...."
- Rudyard Kipling, "The Ballad of Tommy Atkins"
There are certainly problems in the US with police policy, police training, and police attitudes. But laying one's dissatisfaction at the feet of a single random police officer isn't very productive.
We GA pilots complain when we have to "take the rap" every time someone does something stupid and newsworthy in a small aircraft. Lets not do the same.
Ron Wanttaja
I have read ssmdive's comments several times and I do not see the condescension that dougbush sees. Ron W. Seems to have summarized the issue that ssmdive is trying to get at. I see no purpose in attacking someone's argument because somehow a reader has taken some personal affront to something where no affront was intended.
Although...I will also point out that many in this forum have had MUCH more extensive background checks than ssmdive appears to think make him stand out among us. We are pilots, that already makes us outside the norm. It would be reasonable to expect that we have non-flying backgrounds outside the norm, too.
Now, back on track. EAA HQ felt it needed to do something to protect the corporation from potential allegations. It implemented a program without apparently doing a thorough problem definition, analysis of alternatives, and effective member outreach. The result has been a significant push back from YE pilots and their chapters. Some have accepted the change, some have even embraced it. Others have left the program or continue under protest. Some chapters may be operating without any effective acknowledgement of the program at all. It is quite likely that YE flights are dropping. It is also possible that the program as implemented is not adding any additional protection and, in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY EVENT that something undesirable does happen, EAA HQ may find that the current program does not protect them at all. So...what do we do about that?
(Good stuff deleted)
Does anyone else's organization use the euphemism, "Dentist's Chair"? :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhemxpc
I think the current program protects EAA to the greatest extent possible. If sued, EAA has to show that it implements protection to at least the standard set by other major organizations like the Boy Scouts. Any plaintiff will attempt to show that EAA's program lags the currently-accepted norm, or that the implementation was botched in a way that should have been noticed and corrected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhemxpc
Beyond that, there's little EAA can to to prepare. It's ludicrous to assume that any YE pilot will "try something" during a flight...with the kid's parents and dozens of people standing right there when the plane returns. The danger is that the person will try to parlay meeting the youth into continued contact OUTSIDE the bounds of Young Eagles... prohibited by the YPP, but there's no way for EAA to detect if it's happening.
That's where EAA will get bit, legally, and the existence of the YPP will be a damned thin shield. I don't think there's any way to provide further protection.
Ron Wanttaja
Points of order:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayhemxpc
1. I do not think my BGC's make me "stand out". I just think that I go through more BGC's than an average person. I don't see that claim as controversial. I could be wrong, but no one brought data to counter my belief - only grief. How many BGCs does the average person go through in a year?
2. If you think go through a bigger, better, more difficult BGC... OK, great. If you made the claim that your BGC was better than the ones I go through... OK, I don't see that as controversial or you thinking you are 'better' than me. It could very well be a statement of fact. I could debate the details if I cared, but to make the claim I think you are being big headed for making that claim is just silly.
3. I specifically mentioned the "average". If you work for the NSA, then you would not be "average". If you happen to be the POTUS, then again, not "average". You made the claim that pilots are not "average".... OK fair claim. But the average pilot goes through approximately how many BGC's per year?
The LEO thing. I found dark humor in the fact that we tell kids if they are in trouble, to go find and tell an LEO. Yet the EAA seems to think that is not enough and some online BGC will save the day.
But some people will take ANY opportunity to get their ego hurt and slam someone... Especially certain groups. I am used to it, but honestly always surprised. With that I am done wasting my time. The EAA does not care and all I am doing here is opening myself up to abuse from someone who got upset and has an axe to grind (not you).
Geez. There I was, trying to say that you were NOT trying to come off as coming from a "better than you are" mentality, only pointing out that some or many of us also go through rigorous screenings, and you decide to post this. I was not trying to slam you. I was NOT claiming that my screening is more extensive than yours (nor am I saying that yours is more extensive than mine.) My own clearance and background checks are none of your concern. Some on this forum probably have more thorough (intrusive) checks than you. Some do not. None of us, however, are, "the average joe." Your words. Now, can we stop this and focus on defining problems and trying to turn a sow's ear into suede (understanding we will never make it into silk.)