This is sad. Shame on EAA. The FAR's and previous EAA policy/procedures were quite adequate to give rides. Oh well, I didn't give many rides so going from "some to none" won't matter.
Printable View
This is sad. Shame on EAA. The FAR's and previous EAA policy/procedures were quite adequate to give rides. Oh well, I didn't give many rides so going from "some to none" won't matter.
This is my first response to an issue.
This one really sticks in my craw. With nearly 2 million Young Eagle being registered, I was wondering how many incidents of child molestation occurred that prompted this???
I recently received a nice Young Eagles Flight Leader hat with a chevron patch for 50 missions. I've volunteered my C-172 and my piloting skills over the last two years. It's been a fun thing to do one Saturday per month. Two days after receiving the hat, I got the notice from Young Eagles about the Youth Protection program. I read through the Policy, the Questions and Answers and have even taken the their course. I decided not to go through the background check when I thought...why should I open up my life's history for a volunteer activity? Even though my background check would come back as superior, this activity is not that important to me that can't live without it. It's no longer fun.
Next thing they'll have separate tables at our pancake breakfast for under 18 and over 18. Watch out, don't let that kid sit next to you while you enjoy your pancake. You might get accused of something.
Come May 1, I think the Young Eagles program just lost one more pilot.
Jim Faix
Sarasota FL
This is the beginning of the END of the Young Eagles program. SO SAD! I will guess, we will lose 80-90% of our Young Eagle pilots. Our chapter holds Aviation Days at the airport and has hosted Girl Scouts, Cub/Boy Scouts and the local youth introducing them to aviation. Per the FAQ, this program WILL require the same. The demise of this program also. Is my hope the EAA rethinks the new requirements. Is Jack Pelton aware of the proposal and the outcry from the membership?? The silence of the EAA staff and a statement from Jack Pelton is truly deafening. In five days, this post has garnered over 10,000 views and more then 160 replies. Encourage everyone to POST your thoughts!! The EAA may just listen.
Dear EAA,
Here is your lesson learned:
In the future, bring in the stakeholders, the people that are actually performing the activity and have them give input on best practices to implement new policies.
What you have here is the result of a "good idea" from people who have no idea of how things actually work.
I have no doubt that ALL management has their eyes on this thread and a staff person dedicated to fielding all the calls. I am sure it was expected and introducing this program during this time of year ( off season) was the plan to give ALL time to reflect.
I personally understand and accept the added responsibilities of working with youth and their protection. I hope that the logistical issues of event staffing can be worked out and the program survive.
Members of my chapter no longer fly YE for other reasons but are available for "ground support".
Jim Heffelfinger
Chapter 52
Sacramento
To the EAA Leadership and Young Eagle Team:
Right now I have in front of me two lapel pins received from the EAA Young Eagles Office this past month. One is for being the Young Eagle Coordinator for Chapter 1445 during 2015 (an honor I have held for the last three years). The other pin is for flying ten or more Young Eagles during the same year. Both are well-earned and mean a lot to me. Unfortunately, these two pins may be the last I ever receive.
I was shocked when I read the letter from the EAA Young Eagles office last week. I had to keep looking at the letterhead to make sure it was really from the EAA. Mandates are usually initiated by a regulatory organization such as the FAA, not a support and volunteer organization such as the EAA. I urge the EAA leadership to poll its members before establishing directives such as background checks. Volunteers do not like being told what to do in the manner presented in your letter. Reasoning beyond "best practices" needs to be fully explained.
Maybe we should ramp up the program now and try to fly the remainder of two million Young Eagles by April 30, 2016. If the EAA leadership doesn't take a hard look at its new policy and make change(s), that just may be the sad day I fly my last Young Eagle. Who will suffer then? It's time to follow the guidance of our common sense.
Mark Weiss
EAA 681690
Yeah, well I'm one who took the training, thought better of the security check requirement, and will not participate unless it's changed.
So strike one from your list of sheep.
Ron
It doesn't really matter whether you (EAA policymakers, not you personally, Brett) intended to do the wrong thing. It is still wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret Steffen
If you truly believe that about your volunteers, and are not being compelled by some government agency, this is even more ludicrous.
Sorry, but it's just not the right thing to do. I wish I'd thought more about it, or read some of the excellent discussion here, before I completed the background check form. I was feeling the hair stand up on my neck when I did it, but assumed (I know, I know) it was OK, because it was EAA. Then, with time, I decided it was NOT OK. Unfortunately, I can't undo my submission, even seconds later. (Another issue, IMHO).
Yes, Mark, it would make a difference.
I'd still be insulted by the requirement, but a lot of the objection does indeed have to do with the SSN requirement.
Ron
Does anyone have the actual letter they could share on here? Not the post on the website or e-Hotline, the letter that was sent out. If you could scan it & attach it, that would be helpful to those of us who haven't received it.
Thanks :thumbsup:
A background check using a social security number is not a part of ANY youth sports league I have been involved in. The most stringent requirements I have seen are for school related sports leagues that are state sanctioned and while they do involve some online training, and I assume some sort of background check using your name & address, they DO NOT require a social security number. Most youth leagues do not come near the level the state requires.
Also, the online training required by the state is only for the head coach & assistant coach - I can volunteer at a school team practice without going thru all that. It is common practice to never let an adult be alone with any one student, whether it be accomplished by having one coach with multiple students or 2 adults coaching one player. This would be impractical for a ride in a C150.
I think the issue isn't so much what happens during the Young Eagles event. A YE event could be leveraged to continue contact with a participant ("Hey, you did great flying the airplane! Why don't you come by the airport next Saturday and we can fly again!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Switzer
The whole purpose of the new program is so EAA can claim to have followed approved processes to reduce the chance of this happening.
Ron Wanttaja
Nothing, absolutely nothing the EAA can do will prevent that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
Absolutely, positively true. But if the criminal made first contact at an EAA event, EAA will be asked whether they'd screened the people who would be in contact with the kids. Having made *some* effort to eliminate the bad apples will play better in court than pretending it couldn't happen. The EAA *will* get sued, in such a case, and if they can claim they took precautions to prevent it, they might avoid a major judgement against them. Juries are NOT pleased with organizations with slapdash policies, in these cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by combahee
Ron Wanttaja
..which is exactly the argument that seems to be taken here as a "bureaucracy" speaking rather than "what we're all here for"...Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
Let's assume this was caused by that recent case (http://www.twincities.com/crime/ci_2...ual-abuse-case).
Alternative is to Not Do It, and argue that (approximately) 0.00005% chance is Not Worth It (1 out of ~2 mil: your odds of being struck by a lightning in a given year are about double, and 2 orders of magnitude larger of being struck over lifetime (numbers "stolen" from NOAA: http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml)). I don't see a Gross Negligence in disregarding such a chance based on such low chances, and knowledge that lots of kids' related activities will dwindle with introduction of such policies.
What is mostly disappointing is that this Policy seems to have been implemented by folks who don't understand their membership at all.
Pilots are already heavily vetted by FAA during medical process.
Pilots are generally one of the "do what makes sense, not what the lawyer says" groups given my limited experience with them.. seems to be confirmed by ~80% of (so far not so long running) poll respondents not liking this policy as is, and ~60% opposing it without serious changes.
Pilots are some of the most dedicated, professional groups of people at large.
I am not trying to diminish other folks and please don't take offense, but it anecdotally feels to me that it takes a bit more resources and time to become a pilot, yet alone willing to take. strange. kids. you've never met before. In Your Airplane. as opposed to typical "sunday volunteers" that work with them. What Im trying to say is that the very fact that one's a pilot is already a huge "background check" presented by life.
CYA could've taken a lot of forms: waiver's one of them. Training could have been other. Even recurring training. "See something: say something". Heck, have you guys SEEN this training? It's BS: you can't fail, they basically show you 1 paragraph of text and then immediately ask the question.. even the TSA-mandated SIDS training I had to take when I was flying out of KOAK ("close the door behind you and don't let anyone w/o the badge unsupervised") was less silly than this.
But not SSN-mandated background checks, "2-deep leadership" (okay, this name is seriously silly? ), and requirement to keep paperwork for years-or-more.
To whom it may concern:
My name is Steve Glenn, EAA # 307275. Been a member since '86, been an Airventure volunteer since '97. Many of you know me as one of the Point managers for VAA down at "Point Fondy," the shack at the south end of Runway 18/36.
I've got four kids. My oldest is 17 and has been volunteering as a ground-pounding flightline worker. My other children are younger and all work with their mother at Aeromart. You folks may remember my youngest - the eight-year-old girl who hands out shopping bags.
So... after we digest this furball that threatens Young Eagles.... what about Airventure? Are all volunteers going to need training and background checks? Just so a few of us can bring our kids up to be Airventure volunteers?
And what about foreign volunteers? They don't have social security numbers.
I can already sense what's coming: no volunteering - none - for any minors. At which point I'm going to have to seriously re-evaluate my family's commitment to Airventure. It has been our 10-day main vacation of the year for 27 years....
I have a 16 year old young man aspiring to be an aeronautical engineer as a member of my chapter. He is actively involved in many of our adventures, including trips to the Kermit Weeks hangar for restoration projects, member build projects, fly-outs, etc. Not to mention regular chapter meetings and the like.
As a Boy Scout Leader, I understand some of the reasoning behind recent decisions. I go through the same stuff in BSA, not only to be a Scout/Cub Master, but also as a merit badge counselor. Even more so as an Aviation Merit Badge counselor. So nothing new here for me.
I also see this as a reason that we have dwindling BSA memberships these days as well. Over-enthusiastic policies put in place as a reaction to a few bad eggs make people move toward activities that are less bothersome and personally intrusive. This may very well have the same effect on the Young Eagles and other youth programs based on some of the reactions and feedback of entire chapters I'm reading above.
That being said, I'm not about to ruin the experience for my dedicated young person, who really enjoys our group and the opportunities and events in which we participate. I will, however, be making sure that build activities will be completely separated from chapter activities, as there are restrictions that keep minors from using power tools. And whether or not we choose to become active in Young Eagles activities will be up to the membership and we'll explore it during the next meeting.
My vice president and I have committed to the Youth Protection Training and background checks because we believe very strongly in our mission to provide experience and guidance to our current teenage member. We'll do everything that we can to ensure that his experiences are not interrupted or hampered by these policy changes, even if we have to act upon them as external activities. What this means for future young members organization-wide remains to be seen.
I hope that for other chapters, this doesn't turn into a, "Yeah, we're glad you're interested. Come back when you're 18." kind of moment. It will surely hamper youth involvement in local chapters.
Respectfully,
Chris
Chris, I admire your dedication. Congratulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris In Marshfield
You just hit the nail on the head. EAA is forcing many of the Youth Activities to be separated from EAA Activities. So how does that protect children? Yeah, I see how it protects the EAA legal folks when they can say the EAA didn't have anything to do with that activity; but again, how does this protect children?
There are solutions out there, mostly based in simple training and common sense guidelines, but corporate dictatorship of legalistic programs to volunteers doesn't work, and in my mind, makes me think Corporate EAA is clueless about their membership.
-Cub Builder
Chris, great for you mentoring this youngster. You do realize under the new guidelines he can not attend a chapter meeting unless at least two vetted members are present at all times? He can not attend any function, fly out, visit to a museum, if it entails a flight or drive in a personal vehicle or aircraft? He can not participate in a workshop without the two vetted supervisors? You can't fly the kid unless it is a Young Eagle flight and depending on the interpretation, he has to be supervised by another adult, even getting in and out of the aircraft?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris In Marshfield
These regulations will virtually stop all youth based activities in EAA.
Yes sir. It's certainly a sore spot. Not only does there have to be an appropriate number of members in place, he also has to be signed in and out, and we have to manage a separate record of this activity for three years. OUTSTANDING. My chapter-mates and I are dedicated to making sure that he gets the experience he needs to be the person he wants to be. If we have to do these things outside of chapter airspace, we're certainly ready and willing to do so!Quote:
Originally Posted by combahee
~Chris
Good for you Chris!
All the YE pilots in our chapter will withdraw from the program, and it looks like the chapter will also withdraw from the EAA. We simply can't do business this way. The members are already drawing up plans for non EAA youth flights.
Hopefully the EAA will step up and let you mail all your records to them for safekeeping. Another organization I am involved with does this. I told them I didn't really want to be liaison anymore and had no replacement and they said just send my files to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris In Marshfield
Combahee: I hope you guys will hold off closing down the chapter for a little while at least. Nothing wrong with getting things laid out to leave, but as a very wise friend told me ( in a much cleaned up wording ) "You can't help management hang themselves from outside the fence". Cutting ties before this is resolved, hopefully, in a positive manner, could be very hurtful all around.
The fact that we are now a week into dealing with this smoking pile, and there has been nothing but absolute silence from national and the board of directors, other than the "don't shoot the messengers" note from Bret, speaks volumes on their apparent attitude towards the membership. With this festering more and more each day, and the anger of the membership increasing exponentially, they need to reach out to the membership in a hurry and work on fixing this. If they don't, the annual meeting might be very dark for the board and management. Whether they realize it or not, this subject is being discussed on multiple boards and is rapidly becoming very public. I'm actually surprised that Zoom has hasn't made it a front page splash on his website already, as much as he despises the EAA.
It is a laudable goal to have background security checks to protect kids, but why would anyone submit to a background check with risks like this? Unless EAA can figure out a better way to do this (in other words, without pilots giving their SSN to anyone outside the government), this is quite likely to basically "kill" the YE program. Perhaps that is what someone really wanted to do and this is a good way to do it? I have really enjoyed flying YE kids in the past, but having been the victim of identity theft, I have no desire whatsoever - for any reason - to go through that mess again...There has to be a better way.
According to EAA HQ the following vendor was contracted to complete the backgrounds: AmericanChecked, Inc.
AmericanChecked is a national background screening company that services the Native American gaming and non-profit markets. The three founders of this woman-owned company share a collective 40 years of experience in the background screening industry.
Press Release
Tulsa, OK – July 13, 2015 – Effective Immediately
On July 1, 2015, AmericanChecked Inc. was officially certified for membership in the Chickasaw Nation Preferred Vendor Program.
AmericanChecked Inc. is a nationally accredited, Native/Woman-owned background screening solutions provider based in Tulsa, OK specializing in meeting the diverse screening needs of Indian Country.
The Chickasaw Nation Preferred Vendor Program was established in November, 2008. It has been and is currently the policy of the Nation to continue increasing business opportunities for qualified Chickasaw and other Native American owned businesses as well as other federally recognized minorities.
This recognized program reflects the Chickasaw Nation’s mission statement: “To enhance the overall quality of life of the Chickasaw people.”
Julie Hakman, President of AmericanChecked
http://www.tribaltrac.com/americanch...vendor-status/
http://www.bbb.org/tulsa/business-re...sa-ok-38001574
Please note that back on post #43, it has been shown that the SSLC for the website that we are directed to for inputting our information does not belong to AmericanChecked, but BackChecked, LLC in Phoenix, AZ. Nowhere in any of the available information shows any connection between the companies.Quote:
Originally Posted by gearisgreen
My name is Tom Bush. I'm a retired Navy commander (F-14 and F/A-18 background), and currently fly the A320 for UAL. I live with my family at the Dry Creek Airport in Cypress, TX (TS07), and serve as President and Airport Manager of this 35+ homesite private facility. Along with my family and friends, I take great enjoyment from all things aviation.
Of the many flying activities my community is involved with, the largest is its annual 'Open House.' Occurring each November, this event is our way of sharing the joy of flight while spreading goodwill among neighbors and local community members. People flock to our event from miles around, and approximately 25 pilots devote themselves to providing safe and quality flight experiences to the hundreds of kids in attendance. I don't know the exact number of Young Eagle rides we have given over the years, but would guess it to be on the order of 1,000 or so based on the fact that we typically do around 120 each year. This will not happen anymore, because every pilot I have spoken to in our community feels the same way as I and hundreds of respondents to this forum do regarding EAA's so-called 'Youth Protection Program:'
1. That it is inane (It's a solution in search of a problem! Show me the data that indicates this is necessary! Out of a few million YE flights, how many kids have been groped? .000001% or less?)
2. That it is insulting (Not quite sure how, but me and the pilots that makeup my community have somehow, just somehow, managed to not molest any kids in our lifetimes, and yet all of a sudden we need 'training.' Ludicrous. . . Let me get this straight: we use our time, our airplanes, our money, our facility, our litigation risk, and EAA wants us to go through human decency training while surrendering our most sensitive information for a background check? I don't think so. . . We'll still fly the kids just like we always have. The only difference being that it will be administratively a lot easier to conduct the event without all the YE paperwork, and the kids won't walk away with the fancy certificate. Modern color printers are wonderful, however, so chances are we'll just print up some locally generated versions of our own first flight certificate).
3. That it is unnecessary (Again; show us the data that makes this program necessary. If the reasoning was / is: "if the program prevents only one child from being exposed to a pervert or one lawsuit from being filed then it is worth it." Actually, that's not correct. Everything in life is a cost/benefit analysis, and in this case these rules are going to 'cost' the EAA the viability of the YE program itself when pilots refuse to participate en masse. Much more has been said regarding the efficacy of the program in actually accomplishing anything, so I won't repeat it here).
4. That it is overreaching (Submitting my SSN to a non-profit organization like EAA, who then submits it to a faceless third-party for the background check? As a retired military officer and someone exposed to the OPM data hack, I don't think so. . . Others feel the same).
5. That it is risky (Risky to EAA members for the identity theft potential, and risky to EAA itself for loss of participation in the YE program. I'd also submit that it is risky to overall EAA membership statistics, as many like me will see no reason to renew their membership if we don't plan on conducting any YE flights).
I respectfully urge the great organization that is EAA to rescind this disastrous policy - for its own good as well as that of its membership.
This is going to sound a little "out there," but as a person who has undergone many "sensitivity" training sessions and background checks at various corporations, government contractors, and government entities such as serving on a county board-- be it it be ethics, race relations, sexual harassment, etc. -- I've found that usually the way it works is you just put up with it and take the class and sign the form, and then life goes on as normal. You rarely notice any difference, except maybe you are a bit more aware of certain sensitive issues. I've never been "hurt" by any of these types of training.
I'm certain even people who have served in the Military know what I am talking about.
DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event. My advice: take the training, take the background check, and keep participating in YE.
You keep advising that, but your own poll in the sister thread currently shows that over 80% will not submit to this. So I'm thinking you are in a small minority on this issue. I know you keep saying this is not a problem, but some 80% of your friends on here disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Yes, at work we are required to tolerate this kind of nonsense as a requirement of employment. I am employed because I have to do that to feed my family. Volunteers have no such requirement. I like flying kids, but I don't have to fly kids in order to feed my family and I don't have to be an EAA blessed volunteer to fly kids. The YE program was a tool, but that tool is now broken.
If the numbers in your poll have any reflection on reality, then the EAA corporate types are going to have to either go back and start over again, or write off the YE program as a casualty to their own stupidity. You can argue all you want, but the fact is volunteers don't have to volunteer. When it reaches their pain threshold, volunteers can simply walk away. According to your own poll, some 80% are saying this has reached their pain threshold.
-Cub Builder
You just don't get it Mark. This smoking pile isn't a molehill, it's an entire mountain range to use your line. Are you willing to sacrifice your chapter to prove that nothing will happen if you violate one of the rules? I'm not willing to even think about it for mine. BTW, if I don't follow the "rules and policies" at work, the least that will happen to me is time off without pay for some period, and the most is that people die and there is lots of collateral damage. And yes, I have security clearances, and I am required to abide by FAA, NTSB, DOT, DOD, DHS, DOE, NRC and OSHA rules on the federal side, as well as the Texas DSHS RCP on my job.
I spend up to 80 hours a year taking corporate and government mandated training and testing on ethics, sexual harassment, race relations, workplace violence and several other topics besides more than 100 hours training time directly related to my job, so I am well aware of how it is presented and how it affects the workplace. I put up with it because I am well paid for what I do. I am also hyper aware that there are people out there that get their jollies from seeing people get in trouble for not following the rules to the letter. I've seen it happen in the company that I work for.
Do I think the EAA needs a policy? Yes it does, but, and here is the caveat, it needs to be one that will work and be an asset rather than the overbearing, insulting, labor intensive monstrosity that they have presented to us as a fait accompli. The sooner they realize this and listen and come up with a workable plan, the better it will be for the organization and maybe some of the damage can be repaired before it's too late.
Since you seem to think that this is a "Mole Hill" and everyone else is over reacting, then maybe you'd feel comfortable sharing your Social Security number, birth date, and home address on this forum for all to see?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Don't want too? I certainly will understand if you don't, but realize that anytime you submit that information on line, you are running the same kind of risk. I, for one, will not take that risk........
I have read all of the comments on the EAA Forum on this topic to date. Wow – this is a bit of afire-storm! Thus far, it seems that the largest objection is to having to give out a SSN rather than the requirement to have background checks for YE volunteers, although there are a few folks who don’t like that either (they are dreaming - this is not the world of 50 years ago). I certainly understand the reluctance to give out an SSN if it is not really necessary, and well-protected in the process (there have been multiple security breaches over the last several years, so the fear is well-founded). Most folks appear to see the rationale in vetting volunteers who will work with kids (I agree with that as well). Note the post that related specific information regarding a registered sex offender pilot that had flown a bunch of YE kids (no evidence related of any wrongdoing on his part during those flights) without anyone in the Chapter even being aware that he was a RSO until he left the chapter when he moved. Scary, I think. That and a couple of other similar incidents was apparently why the EAA BoD took this step. Not sure how well they thought it through, but that was the reason given by staff in one of the posts on the forum.
Quite a few comments question the qualifications of the vendor who is contracted to do the background checks, saying that they are not really doing the checks, as stated by EAA, but that they had subcontracted the checks to an entity of questionable qualification. That should be of concern, and I hope that EAA Board will address that concern and rethink whether including the SSN in the process is really necessary. If EAA still deems the SSN to be necessary, my guess is that they will have a much smaller pool of volunteers for this worthwhile program. Note that there is also a concern by some of the posters on the Forum that the background check policy extends beyond YE, even to the extent of having youth participate in any EAA programs, including Chapter meetings. I am not sure about that, but EAA national needs to address all of these concerns sooner rather than later. That would not seem particularly reasonable, given that there are a lot of adults around at meetings. I get their desire to protect the kids with whom we are entrusted, and agree with the rationale, but that protection process really needs to be more carefully thought out.
It seems to me that one option would be to have a winter stand-down of the YE program, work through these issues, address the concerns and be ready to go in the Spring. Knee-jerk reactions to a perceived (or real) problem usually draw knee-jerk responses.
Chris M
The thing many of you are ignoring or just not realizing is the onerous requirements on all the volunteers, not just the pilots. ANY volunteer that volunteers 4 or more times per year, or 4 hours or more has to undergo the checks and training. This would include the school teachers that bring the high school ROTC kids. The military pilots that volunteer their Saturdays to answer questions while the other kids are being flown. The wives doing paperwork, the volunteers walking the kids to the planes and the photographer recording each flight to give the youth an extra souvenir.
Add to this all the extra paperwork and keeping it secure.
What do we do with the chapter member that is under 18? Does he have to leave if there aren't 2 vetted members present at all times?
Before anyone defends any of the policy read the stipulations.
Mark van Wyk; let me quote you, "DON'T MAKE A MOUNTAIN OUT OF A MOLE HILL, FOLKS. I doubt very seriously that there will be "rule compliance Nazis" at every YE event." Are you even suggesting we only pay lip service and ignore the EAA rules, to lie to the EAA and not be in compliance? What else are you lying or cheating on?
Are the rules so distasteful that even you are willing to bend the rules?
So just walk along, don't care about how a group that is supposed to represent you is dictating what you WILL do to volunteer your time and money? Just shut up and do it and then ignore it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
I ask for maybe the THIRD time.... Ever have your identity stolen? Cause if not, then you have no idea what you are talking about when you tell others to not worry about it. Are YOU going to personally cover my financial costs if the EAA loses my identity? Are YOU personally going to call all the creditors and explain what is going on? And making me do dumb things for dumb reasons is hurting me. It is wasting my time. Maybe you have nothing better to do, but I'd rather not waste my time on stupid requirements that will do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
We know all about useless training. But even people who have not been in the military know the difference between taking stupid required training because they have to follow the lawful orders of a superior, or people with a job understand taking stupid training because you are getting paid is different than being ordered to take stupid training from a group that is supposed to represent you, not order you around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Again, ever had your ID stolen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
True, unlike you I have the guts to use my real name. Bravo. You did a Google search. I'm going to report you the forum moderator and see if I can have your disgusting post removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
Oh, don't like some minor stuff out there? If all I did was a quick "google" then why so upset? Well, that's why we don't want our data out there big guy. Maybe you just learned a bit of a lesson - I doubt it, but maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Before this deteriorates in to a serious spat, can we just rein back a little bit, and instead of squabbling with Mark (I do agree with everyone else's comments regarding his posts, but that's neither here nor there), focus on the issue at hand - the background checks, the SSN requirement, and EAA staff who came up with this idea.
For me, in all of that letter, what really made me laugh was the "free of charge" sentence. Seriously? You, EAA staff, had considered charging volunteers for the privilege of this for long enough that you felt the need to point out you now were not going to charge the volunteers? Can you spell arrogant?
Isn't it sad that people who would normally sit around happily discussing your shared passion are at each other's throats because of this ill-thought out, badly conceived program created by the folks who work for you.
I know many of us are ticked off about how this was sprung on us, and about many of the policies. My understanding is that it is being discussed at every level in Oshkosh now. So, as hard as it is in this information age of instant gratification, let's see what EAA comes back with (hopefully) soon.