Airdrome Aeroplanes Nieuport 17

Trailing edge fairings started. I decided to go with 2 piece top and bottom.

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The top side aileron gap fairing is complete (right wing)

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I still have to figure out how to attach a mounting bracket for the upper rear V strut to the 2" round rear spar. There is a lot going on there with the through bolt for the compression strut, anti drag cable fitting and landing wire fitting. Plus I am not keen on drilling any more holes in the spar at this location.

The kit is designed to attach the strut to the compression strut, but this causes the strut to angle forward. It should be vertical and attach to the rear spar.

Any thoughts?

Dale

My plans are different here, if you're referring to the inter-wing struts (V Strut).

The front and rear strut gussets go around the compression tubes, a close to the spar as can be allowed. This lets one get a grip into the cups that hold the compression tubes. Yes, there's a lot going on, and one has to plan on where the bolt goes in versus the nut when assembling it, but it's not difficult with the wing uncovered.

Frank, my plans are the same as yours. However, attaching the rear V strut to the compression strut causes to lean forward at the top. Is should be vertical.

The strut should be mounted under the rear spare to get it in proper position. That's what I am working on. Had I come to the conclusion to tie the mount to the rear compression strut bolt and under the spar in the beginning, it would be a simple matter to add it as the wing core is being constructed. But now is a totally different story.

Since my last post here, I have figured out the solution. Cut the compression strut in 2 to allow it to be slid off the plugs at the ends. It isn't riveted at the ends yet. Then the rear bolt can be removed, V strut bracket attached and bolt reinserted.

This results in the compression strut needing to be shorter by the thickness of the added bracket - ~.065 planned, the compression strut sleeved to "repair" the splice and the anti drag cable that attaches to that bolt, shortened. I called Robert Baslee about this whole process and he was good with the plan with a couple of suggestions including adding a turn buckle to the anti drag cable to take care of the length difference. I could just replace that cable and tension it as was originally done, but I have some extra turnbuckles.

I am in the process of designing the V strut bracket. I will post photos when I get that done.

Dale

So Robert's "try to get it as vertical as you can, but it might be a little off, that's okay" standards of quality were not to your liking? :D

The funny thing is mine looked to be more than a little off of vertical until I put her in rig; then they went pretty much dead on the money.

I think this is why he makes and installs them with the wings in situ with wires strung - "show about two or three threads on the turnbuckles" - as then he can eyeball them.

Before getting too involved, it might be worth a shot to mount the top and bottom wings with some wires to see where the inter-plane struts actually line up.

Okay, so you've been to Gardner and see how wings can be hung with a crew of folks that either have done it a bunch of times or have helpers that can take directions and understand the concept. This is how one does it by themselves:

You'll need two long and two shortish ropes or straps, a way to suspend them about four inches above your head at the ends of the upper wing,* a step ladder, six or eight little spirit levels, some double sided tape, a table or something to lift the tail to flying position, and a non-rolling standard chair.

For the back yard I built two rectangular boxes out of 2x4's (the ones I put under my MDF sheets over sawhorses for my build tables); in the hangar I used roof beams.

Back the plane away from the wings, but pointing at them. Put the top wings together, including bolts in the rear. If you haven't drilled the rear cabane yet, a bolt to each side of it in either the blade or insert you made.

Lift one end of the wing and put it on the back of the chair to get it off the ground. Make a loop on one end of the rope so you can cinch it up as you raise, and put around the wing about three feet in, loose. Put the rope on the down end, too.

Lift the down end side of the wing to about chest high. The wing is going to sag a little in the middle. Don't stress, it's okay; we're not going to have it that way for long. Cinch the rope right here.

Go to the chair end. Lift it about chin high. Cinch the rope. Try and keep the wing as level as you can.

Now go to the other end and lift it about arm high, and cinch. If you're like me, this means by the time you tie your knot it's much lower than that. Do the same on the other end.

Walking it up like that keeps the sway in the middle from looking crazy and making you pop sweat regardless of ambient temperature.

Roll (or carry) the airplane under the center of the wing, lifting the tail to about flying position. Here's the fun part. Front cabanes first. I found it was easier to maneuver the plane around to them than worry about the wing.

When it's about in the right spot, put something under the tail to get it into flying position. I used an old folding card table. Chock the wheels!

The longeron midway through the cockpit is a good datum spot for level along the length of the plane. Put 2x4 scrap or stuff under the tailwheel until it's level.

Since you're not using a VW, you may not have a nice bar across the front between the top two longerons at the firewall. A nice piece of straight lumber will do the trick on top of the mounting bolts. Put a couple of those little levels on the board. This is your datum point for horizontal level. If you haven't installed bungees or gear yet, thin bits of plywood under one side or the other under the gear works good. If you have the wheels installed, letting out some air on one of the tires works well.

Have a good selection of profanity ready in your mind, as now you need to lower the wing so that the front cabanes meet the compression strut. You're going to be gently lowering the wing tip ropes, trying to put a two inch cabane onto a two inch compression tube. It helps if the front of the wing is a little lower than the back. I know you have the sexy improved cabanes, but this part is kind of like a carnival side show game no matter what the rig is, at least for the first time. Time number four and it's a no brainer. This is also where that step ladder comes into play, as it's easier to hold and adjust the ropes if you're up a step or two.

One the front is in, lower the ropes a tad so that the rear spar is on the cabane, if it isn't already.

If the wing isn't perpendicular to the fuselage, move the fuselage to the wing. You want the wing to be floating as naturally as possible, with no forced twisting between the cabanes and the ropes. It took me a minute or two to realize that if things weren't lining up right, moving the tail left or right was the solution. If you move the fuselage at all, check level.

Remember that double sided tape? Put some on the rest of your little Harbor Freight levels, and stick them to the upper wing at the outer compression strut and along the front spar. Or, since you've got the leading edge on, the rear spar. doesn't matter. You could just walk around checking, but I found it was tedious this way and very helpful to have them in place.

Dick around with the ropes until the top wing is level all the way across.

Tada!

Take one of your shorter ropes, make a loop around it, feed the free end through it around the outer compression strut on the top wing, letting it hang free. This will be our interplane strut stand in for the moment.

Mount the lower wing. Another state fair side show challenge getting both spars to go over the mounts on the fuselage, but we had a large selections of profanities prepared for a reason! Rope goes under the lower wing's compression strut, back up over the upper wing compression strut, looped and tied to where it makes a V.

You may need to put the back of the chair under the lower wing tip to hold it somewhat in place as you tie the rope.

Do the same for the other side.

Now the wings are in position for inter-plane strut fitting and, if you haven't done so, cabane drilling in a hands-free manner. Check all the levels, natually.

* While my airplane is 7/8ths scale to yours, I'm also 7/8ths scale as well, getting ramped up to your height comparatively. :)

My rigging jigs. The fuselage is in the proper position for the spars to be level. It is level left and right.

Once I get the upper wings back mounted, I can take final measurements for the V struts. When those are mounted, the cables can be attached and adjusted.

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As for the rear V strut, you are right "close enough" didn't cut it for me. The rear strut on the full size AA N17 comes out with a significant angle forward if built by the plan.

Dale

I hit a significant milestone the other day. At least to me. The right upper wing is structurally complete.

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Now to trace the pattern with felt tip so I can flip it and assemble the left wing. Goal have it don by Jan 1. My son is coming in for several days at Christmas and wants to help.

You could just built it on the same stencils, and flip the piece when attaching the ribs. The only difference is which way the ribs go...curvy bit going up instead of down.

;)

That's why my spars have "TOP" and "BOTTOM" labels on various sections of them.

The second wing is on the table.:)

I am using experience from the first wing to hopefully do things in a better more efficient order for this wing. The first was to make triangular jig blocks that are tall enough to allow the spars to rest on 2x4's. Making them triangular gives a good thickness for screws, but not too thick. The spars need to be elevated to clear the lower ribs and tangs.

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I also measured out the centerline for the aileron torque tube hinges. I then drilled the spar for the hinge bolts. Just need to tap threads in the hinge blocks.

I am going to try to get a lot of these peripheral items measured and at least temporarily mounted before adding the ribs permanently.

Dale

Inching along on the left wing. The aileron torque tube hinges are now attached to the spar. The outer two can be removes to allow the aileron and torque tube to be removed. I also mounted the aileron control wishbone to the inner end of the torque tube.

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Next step will be to cut the outer ends of the leading edge tube and spar to their final lengths.

Dale

I don't have much time to work on the Neupie this week, but I had to see if there was a wing in there somewhere.

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Yep, there is one.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Dale

Is that an Austin Healy I partially see? Looks like it except for the fenders.

Hi Floats. It is an AH 3000 "replica" that I built from a kit in the early 90's. The body is glass, steel tube frame and Chevy 350 for power. It has a bad leak from the transmission and a blown out header gasket. I need to spend about a week working on it to get it back on good order.

Sweet! I love classic roadsters as much as I love airplanes. Hope you get it running well and back on the road soon.

Yes, it definitely needs to be on the road. Really turns heads. Thanks for the interest.

Inching along on the left wing. All but the root ribs are drilled for the leading edge and strut brackets are formed. Starting to fit the trailing edge.

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My goal it to complete the structure on this wing by Jan 1

One wouldn't think the 1/8th scale difference between my plane and yours wouldn't be much, but looking at the last pictures with tools for reference shows it's actually quite a bit.

It is surprisingly larger.

I made pretty good headway today. All ribs, but the 2 root ribs, are riveted to the leading edge and spar. The main trailing edge is attached. The screw up on the spar tip is repaired.

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Tomorrow I will start attaching the aileron ribs to the torque tube.

Moving slow, but moving.

More work today. Aileron ribs completed and riveted to the "top hats" to allow attachment to the torque tube. Test fit of course.

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Had to stop and fire up the grill to fix momma filet migon for dinner. MMMMM good. Gotta keep momma happy.

How did you ensure symmetry between wing tips? Truthfully, as long as they are close, nobody would ever notice, but I found the only way I could get them to match was to make them at the same time. When I waited, even using the same jig, they came out different, perhaps due to using different forces when bending.

Frank, I did the same. Both tip bows and the aileron trailing edges were made at the same time as mirror image. Considering the tip bows are compound curves, they came out extremely close. I don't know if I posted photos of them together here, but I did on theaerodrome.com.

I guess I missed it.

Just as you've done, I found that posting the build in mirror fashion there and here was beneficial - two different subsets of the building community with different perspectives and ideas sometimes means two different solutions to the same problem to chose from.

Plus I can ask stupider questions here - they already think I'm an idiot on the aerodrome site, and I don't want to enlarge the opinion.

It's interesting that your wingtip bow tube is larger than the one on the aileron. I didn't see that in the plans; another improvement?

While it's jumping ahead, covering won't be too much further along. On the transition between front spar and bow tube, I found a very simple solution to preventing the "sharp tube step" effect that can happen - tape. Some cloth tape (I used that first aid stuff) from bow to the start of the rib worked great. It doesn't take much and is only there to help the fabric drape well and give a hint where not to get too aggressive with the iron.

I know you're going to pinch down the rear spar for a nice smooth transition, so tape will just be there for anti-chafing. Hats off for this - I didn't trust myself to do this right, so I just extended out the bow with a bit of half inch tubing from the spar to fake the work and give the fabric a chance to miss the end of the spar.

Right about where you are in the build I was getting excited, and work actually sped up. Get on it before busy time strikes at work!

Frank, you are correct on all accounts. The 3/4" tip bow is an upgrade on my part. Also, the spar gets flattened at the tip and I will definitely be adding anti chafe tape over all the sharper edges.

Check post 104 on page 11 for the ends of the other wing.

Busy work time is already here.

Actually Frank, you didn't miss photos of matching the wing tip bows. I didn't post any. I did post matching the tip bows on the lower wings however.

I pretty much made all the parts for both left and right wings at the same time. Or if I didn't actually make the second part, I made a pattern. That will come in handy when I start making the shrouds around the wishbone and wing root.

For the lower wings, I just tacked the inside rib in with one rivet front and back. I mounted the wings, set the lower wing angle, and adjusted that rib to match. No gap seal required.

Then I ran the leading edge on the lower right wing a bit too far and had it bind and put a little smile on it against the fuselage panel. Because I'm smart like that. ;)

Keep in mind on the N17, there are rounded cowl cheeks that add to the fitting issues of the lower wings. I do not plan to attach the root ribs of the lower wings until I can fit them against the cowl cheeks. Sometime next spring. I hope.

Won't seem like much, but the aileron ribs are not attached to the torque tube, the diagonal brace is attached to the inner rib of the aileron, the aileron rib ends have been tweaked to keep the trailing edge straight and the end of the spar has been drilled for the wing tip bow.

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Next up is cutting out the end of the spar past the tip bow and flattening the end of the spar around it. Once the spar is flattened, the holes for the tip bow will be tweaked for exact alignment, then the bow can be fit to the leading edge and once all is good, the spar end formed around the tip bow and all riveted. Then the aileron trailing edge-tip gets the same fitting procedure. There is an extension tube that will slide into the torque tube that will extend to the tip.

If I don't get back on here until after the date:

MERRY CHRISTMAS

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Dale

I haven't dropped off the planet, just have been real busy with other stuff.

My son was home at Christmas and helped me mount the wing tip bow.

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After that, things sat a while, but last weekend, I was able to do some work on the aileron - fitting the ribs to the trailing edge and getting ready to add the extension to the torque tube that ties into the aileron tip. When that gets fit, squeezed and riveted, the aileron ribs will be riveted to the trailing edge. Then on to the aileron leading edge and wing aileron cut out fairing. A labor intensive fiddly project. I hope to be able to spend several hours on that this weekend.

I’m in A&p school currently, I’m considering building this same kit in a few years. I have enjoyed this thread and can not wait to see more!


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It's really neat to see how Dale is smoothing the rough edges of the plans and turning a very basic aircraft into something special.

For those not aware, Dale's Airdrome Aeroplanes Nieuport 17 and my Nieuport 11 are different (by plans) only in scale. So while my aircraft is sort of, um, average and rough around the edges, using the same plans and materials - and a little more time and effort - he's coming up with a real gem.

Thanks to both of you. As Frank said, I am trying adjust the basic plan to be more accurate in outline. Robert's basic plan is solid but is geared toward rapid build at some expense to scale outline. Mine will still not be an accurate representation, but will be closer.

Dale

And it must be said that every modification worthy of serious attention was planned and made with communication with Robert Baslee, who designed these aircraft.

Mr. Baslee is fantastic for communicating complex engineering and aeronautical concepts to the builder.

Dale: "I want to reduce the sweep, lower the airfoil, and change the front cabanes to a rigid structure that will eliminate the second set of cross wires."
Robert: "Certainly that can be done using an so-and-so airfoil instead, and after looking at what you're planning find no problem with it. There are a few considerations you have to take into account..."

Me: "The back bottom wing cross tube-y things won't go in like the paper says, as the bottom fuselage tubes are in the way. Can I lift them up a little?"
Robert: "How much is a little?"
Me: "About 3/8 an inch."
Robert: "Yes, but make sure the cross tube-y thing - they're called carry throughs - aren't touching the lower longeron, which is what we call the main fuselage tubes."

:)

I finally got a chance to make a little progress. After coming down with food poisoning last weekend, there was no hope of working on it then.

Rose helped me complete the basic structure of the aileron this morning. Torque tube tip was trimmed, extension added, extension measured, drilled and flattened to fit aileron trailing edge/ tip. Then all riveted together.

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Next is the aileron leading edge and aileron cutout fairings. Finally, the pilot cut out area and fairings around the wishbone will complete the wing.

Started the owner assist annual on my Citabria, but had a little time to work on the Nieuport aileron.

There are 4 pieces that make up the leading edge of the aileron. They must be curved in approx 4" diameter curve. I am using a jig of 2x4's, PVC and steel pipe. It's a real pain. I got the longest piece and a little 1" long piece formed and clecoed to the ribs. It was really warm and muggy and I needed to quit.

Progress:

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More inches along the road.

Second piece of aileron leading edge fit along with the shrouds around the hinge slots. Still need to cut the outer hinge slot and fit the tip piece.

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Here is what the hinge slots look like on the other wing.

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Dale

A few more inches today.

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Two aileron leading edge pieces permanently attached. One more to go - the tip - also the most difficult. :rollseyes:

Working around tons of stuff that needed to be done around the house, I (with Rose's help) finally completed the aileron leading edge sheeting. It is amazing how many hours it takes to install 3 pieces of aluminum.:)

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Well, actually there are still two braces that go under the outer hinge shrouds to support them. Then on to the aileron cutout trailing edge fairings.

Um, what the heck is an aileron cutout trailing edge fairing?