I as well. Keep up the good work!Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8bldr
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I as well. Keep up the good work!Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8bldr
I am also reading it when on the forums, was off for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
I am enjoying it! I'm living my builders fantasy through you. Keep us posted and thanks.
I am building a Graeme Lee designed Nieuport 11 and have been following your build with much interest. Keep it up as I have gleened much from your posts.
Cheers..............Pete from Australia
Thanks for your kind words!
Naturally, I was mucking around the wing after checking for damage due to the recent storms (a once tiny hole in my front tarp is now a huge one) and came up with option three.
I took that long gusset strip and turned it around to where the long part lay on the ribs, following the airfoil, and checked to see if the short end would hang down enough to meet the spar.....dangled if it didn't! So no goofy splicing required - I can go straight to the rib and get what I need for aerodynamics, strength and covering.
I guess once again it shows that when one is in doubt to just stop and think it through. Tough for a guy like me that never learned patience (there was a line to sign up for the class).
Pete, you'll note there are some differences between the Lee G plans and the Airdrome ones; Robert and Lee got along famously but each has a different approach to things. At any rate, I hope that by showing my mistakes you can avoid making them yourself. I'd also highly recommend emailing the Kansas City Dawn Patrol guys (easy google for their site; can't remember it offhand); they are tremendously willing to help out and can talk dummy if need be. Lord knows they know to speak slowly and use small words when I ask stuff of them.
Finally some decent weather, so I skipped some sleep and knocked out that top rib ending problem.
This is what an airfoil matching the aileron looks like with some landscaping fabric to sub in:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rib045.jpg
And here's what it looks like "naked."
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rib046.jpg
Note the large hole in the tarp behind the wing. That was a pinhole before the storms we had! I'm just amazed the whole thing is still there after 60 MPH gusts. I put another tarp on top of it; hopefully the old one will act like reinforcement for it.
Well, my poor little tent took one too many 60 MPH wind storms. I was warned:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tent02.JPG
Seams split right down the center of the roof!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tent01.JPG
Tools got a little more rusty, but other than that no damage to the plane or parts.
New tarp for the roof - thicker and slivered on one side, which will help once things start to warm up.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tent03.JPG
Flipped the wing over and put on the bottom gusset thingie:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rib047.JPG
Done but for the leading edges, which I'm holding off on as A) I haven't built a rack to hang the wings on for storage and they'll just get banged up, and B) I HATE LEADING EDGES.
Left wing on sawhorses and the rear edge bow given the goofy bend to make up for the spacers in the aileron mounts.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rib048.JPG
This is where some idiot proofing came in handy. I had originally put it on the sawhorses the other way - and then spotted the big BOTTOM OF WING in big letters on the spar!
Whew boy, what fun words I would be able to say had I built two right wings!
Almost made two left wings myself before. Glad you caught it!
-Zach
Hmmm, I'm way behind on updating this thread!
So, both upper wings are done, less leading edges and center ribs.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ruw001.jpg
Time to return to the lower wings, now that it's cooled down to tolerable levels:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw028.jpg
This is one of the reasons to always bend duplicates at the same time. I had almost used this circular cut away to make the bend on the second bow...and then recalled that I actually used a conduit bender for it.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw019.jpg
Much better! Looking at my photos of various Nieuports out there, I realized I needed to extend the bow beyond the rear spar to get a nice ending to the wing (this isn't clear in the plans).
To make the extension, eyeball measure and drill holes to match the angle in some extra tubing:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw020.jpg
I found I don't do any better by micro-measuring for this than just by marking by feel.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw021.jpg
Baslee method of annealing (red Sharpie FTW)
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw022.jpg
When the red is gone, the aluminum is annealed. Remember, kids, it's a lot hotter than it looks.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw023.jpg
One cube of ice and a bandaid later, cut it down to the holes.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw024.jpg
Insert a half inch drill bit into the hole and appy hammer gently.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw025.jpg
Cut, sand smooth, and test fit...holy smokes, it fit!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw026.jpg
In a rare piece of foresight, I actually wrote down the measurement of this semicircle wood for the top bend. Did both, natch.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw027.jpg
And here's the rib jig.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw029.jpg
I'm going to do all the rib gussets and cuts at once. Doing them one at a time took too long and was awkward.
Laying out the ribs, I noticed one of them wasn't the same. Dang it, missed one when we coped them back in Holden.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw030.jpg
Let's mark off where it should be coped.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw031.jpg
One could get a milling machine or fuss with a hole saw bit on the drill press...or one could notice that the belt sander has the same curve as the half-hole.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw032.jpg
Which one is the one I "sand coped?"
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw033.jpg
The one on the right!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw034.jpg
I'm down for a couple days with sinutistis.
I can definately say that building the plane was for education, as the top wings schooled me pretty good. A few things really were brought home:
1) Any task that needs repeating should be repeated. Right now. Things I did wrong on the upper wings:
a) Making gussets for each set of ribs as I put the ribs on. I had to recreate the template for them after the first set was destroyed in the storm that took out the roof of the WonderTent. And while the airfoil is consistent, this is as much by accident as it is by plan - I used a couple different techniques for getting them on.
b) Coping the ribs to fit the bow one at a time, just like the rib gussets.
c) Thinking in a linear manner instead of in two directions. I got in my head that ribs had to be one on top of the other, meeting at a single point on the rear bow. This is silly; as long as the airfoil shape is correct and consistent the air doesn't care if the upper and lower ribs meet side by side. And it will be invisible to the casual observer.
2) I know now why guys build more than one airplane! The first one is so one can learn how to build airplanes! :blush:
Anyhow, putting lessons into practice!
Holes drilled for coping the back of the rib.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw035.jpg
All ribs done and fit the jig!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw036.jpg
Templates for gussets sorted out.
A couple of things:
First, note the lower rib has two lines and a dented area at the rear (right) spar. This isn't because I'm a dummy; the Robert's N11 airfoil and the lower rib don't get along perfectly, and he had warned me that I needed to gently apply a ball peen hammer to them.
Second, when I bent the ribs back in Holden I didn't just pull down, but apparently pulled forward as well. There's a curve to the ribs which means that to fit the front coping right and have it smooth along the wing the rear gets elevated in the jig a little.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw037.jpg
Gussets traced and ready for cutting and bending. I had numbered them to ensure I had done enough of them (Robert included extras, and I also didn't want to do stuff I didn't need to).
Hilariously, I numbered them in a place that would be cut off from the gusset!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw038.jpg
All done. I bent two each of the gussets the other way, as invariably one has to have the things on the other side.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw039.jpg
Worked out the gusset blank for the rear of the bow to attach to the ribs; gonna draw, cut, sand, and pre-bend those tomorrow.
Time to break out the Light Aluminum Aircraft Gusset Shearing Assembly to get those rear bow rib gussets cut out.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw040.jpg
One can find them in the aviation section of office supply stores, and it works a champ at cutting thin sheet licky split.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw041.jpg
All sanded to smooth the rough edges and one test bent because I couldn't help it. Though it was quick work compared to cutting them by hand, making 36 of these things wasn't a lot of fun.
One might wonder what the water on the paper slicer is; it's sweat from the bill of my hat that rolled onto it, as I stayed out too long and it topped 100 degrees in the WonderTent.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw042.jpg
Making rib. Note that the top rib is riveted all the way through, but the lower one has only one driven. It acts like a hinge to keep it aligned. I put a rivet in the holes as I went as a poor man's cleco in the other holes.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw043.jpg
I took the jig spacers down and moved them to reverse the bows for the gussets that go "the other way." At the end of the wing the gussets have to be on the right, so the jig was reversed.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw044.jpg
All the ribs ready for mounting with the end bow gussets prepared.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw045.jpg
Now I just have to splice the end of the bows (I'll talk about that next time) and start putting them on.
It's my weekend, which means that I worked all last night but won't for the next two nights. Such is third shift...but I prepped yesterday by getting a little extra sleep so I could get cranking on the lower wings as soon as I got home!
First, a word on why I had to do some splicing. The plans show the end of the bow going right through the spar, and I had bent the bow and actually marked the spar for hole drilling.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw046.jpg
This is a case of there really needing to be some text with these plans. In doing the upper wings, I noticed that the spar is a big ol' blob between the last rib and the end bow. Mr. Baslee said I could file it down to get rid of this, but for the lower wings I stole from some pics of other's work and made a little extension so the bow will get enough angle to clear the spar:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw047.jpg
Unfortunately, moving the already bent bow out meant that it was now too short on the other end! One can't stretch tubing, but we can splice in an extension.
Took some scrap 1/4 inch tubing, cut it lengthwise, and then carefully crushed it down tightly so that it fits inside the bow and splice tightly. When one is a total meathead, making splices to fix broken stuff becomes an almost unwelcome skill.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw048.jpg
We can get away with this because it's 1/4 inch tubing - by the very nature of its fragile makeup, there's not much structural stress going to be put on it. And the splice is actually stiffer than the plain tubing.
Anyhow, mark center on the splint and where the end of it will be on the part to be splinted so we'll know where to rivet it.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw049.jpg
I only riveted the bow side, as there's going to be a rib on the other end, which will be the other two for the added side. They're actually the same length with the splice.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw050.jpg
Leading edge spar where the bow comes into it. Only the first guide hole is drilled through the bow. The holes in the spar along the centerline are for a guide once we get ready to mount it.
Note the "A" on spar and bow. I had to do both at the same time to ensure consistency, but wasn't going to mount the long, fragile bows until I was ready to put ribs on them.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw051.jpg
Naturally since I elongated the total bow area, the second one (which didn't need a splice on the root end) had to have something added where it goes into the spar (on the other end).
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw052.jpg
Placing the ribs onto the wing was too easy!
Except where it wasn't. This is the root end, the last spar before the fuselage. It won't work, owing to the drag wires.
I'll have to figure something out - but it might not be a bad idea to wait until I do the intial wing mounting (interplane struts, locking down carry through positions, intial rigging) to place it.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw053.jpg
Rather than agonize over this and spend a few days thinking about it, I'm just going to put that in the "known unknowns" column and put the rest of the ribs on.
I'll spare you the blow-by-blow and just tell you what I did. First I lined up the ribs on the marks I had made on the table (rather than going through the mess I did with the upper wings because I had forgotten to) and riveted the gussets on them (remember I had drilled the holes for the bottom rib but didn't rivet them).
I then mounted the front of the rib to the spar in a TLAR manner to the airfoil. The gussets are a little flexible and I could easily move the rear up or down to match the airfoil.
Starting with one of the double (top and bottom) ribs, I checked level of the spars and the bow, locked down the rear rib gusset to the spar when it met the bow, held in place with a little bungee.
Not a bad coping job on the end of the ribs, if I say so myself.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw054.jpg
Lots of double checking with that metal ruler along the airfoil, and then locked down the bow with those gussets I cut out for them.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw055.jpg
Lower wing done, less leading edge and the root end rib. My back was beginning to ache a bit from bending over and laying on the dirty concrete, so I figured I'd take a break.
I was shocked to see the clock in the WonderTent:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw056.jpg
Holy crap, I started with just spar assembly and the ribs and bow gussets at around 0830! I took me about half an hour per rib on the upper wings because I didn't do a proper prep job and basically did each one from soup to peanuts as they came along.
So today after dropping the kid off to school I cranked out the other wing.
From laying out ribs at around 0825:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw057.jpg
To done at 1035, including giving a tour of the plane to the handyman working on the neighbor's garage!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/lw058.jpg
This how you assemble the wings - NOT the way I did the uppers.
The handyman and I were confusing each other with our air compressors. His would start up and I'd go to check mine, as the hose was disconnected from the rivet gun at that time...and apparently he was doing the same with his when mine went off!
Tomorrow it's a little prep work and then initial fit of the wings onto the fuselage.
So today I couldn't help myself - I had to do a trial fit of the wings.
I knew things were going to be fun when I put down a little wedge to start the leveling process on my very unlevel yard:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg001.jpg
And was stunned to see:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg002.jpg
and
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg003.jpg
What the heck! Level? Put the little table we use when hanging out in the back yard under the tailwheel mount to level it that way. Probably will have to dink with this a alot:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg004.jpg
Immediately I found a problem. I mounted the inner rib on the top wings too close to the compression strut - this is where the front cabanes connect in!
Easy fix - just take out the rivets and move the front of the rib over a few inches to give it room.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg005.jpg
Since I don't have a roof to hang the wings from, I built a couple frames out of the build table supports and firmed them in place with guide wires.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg006.jpg
The cool thing is that there's a nice optical illusion going on. The frames are square - the ground is at a slant downwards!
Much fussing later, it all got level and lined up in all the right ways. And yes, the top wings are level!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg007.jpg
Yes, I climbed in and made airplane noises. :blush:
And then I took it all apart and put the bits to bed. Why?
First, the wire tangs on the wings and fuselage need brushing/sanding/painting to get rid of the rust before I swag cables through them.
Second, the top front gussets need some adjustment to allow for the wires to between the cabines to go straight.
Third, the bolts for the cabane wires have to have their holes enlarged.
But on the upside, I measured how much the carry-throughs need shimmed to lock them in place for the controls.
My poor roof tarp took a beating in the last thunderstorm series and got a little tear at the top middle seam at the back of the WonderTent.
Yesterday I check on it and it had grown all the way down it - sigh. So I spent the afternoon replacing it with a better fitting one; indeed, I doubled it by putting two on for a roof.
Sun really does a number on these tarps - I could easily put my finger through it! Doubling the tarps should help by having the bottom one keep some integrity, though it cuts a lot of sun from the inside. Tarp difficulties is the main reason one can see rust on most of my tools!
Lots of little stuff done in prep for re-mounting the wings, putting in the interplane struts, rigging, etc.
First up, the gussets at the front cabane were cut too close to allow for the cross wires to come up from underneath.
So drill a hole and make some lines.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg008.jpg
Cut with a dremel tool and file smooth:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg009.jpg
Next is all the bolts that hold the wires. The holes are too small for the wire and thimble. Enlarged them with a drill so they'll fit:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/wg010.jpg
...and a lot of other little stuff like painting and shimming the carry throughs, cleaning the floor, painting the rear cabane, and basically getting stuff prepped for the re-mount.
She's in rig!
It's been a tough winter for all of us, but with things improving she came out of the tent...
First, I need to back up a bit. One of the things I don't like is that the wires on the fuselage end go right onto the wing at the compression strut. I just had nightmares about trying to cover a wing with eight feet of wire attached at the inner compression strut, especially since my swagging tool (which I refer to as "that M-F'er") has a hard time fitting in tight spaces.
Yes, gentle reader, I have gone through many yards of wire and nicopress fittings due to the unforgiving go-nogo gauge to the point of embarrassment.
Here's my solution - two small extension plates made of mild steel for each end that will fit around the fixed mount and attach just like the turnbuckles.
I used one that I bought from Aircraft Spruce as a template.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig004.jpg
All cut out and ready for some trim and drilling:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig005.jpg
Ready for sand, prime and paint:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig006.jpg
Each gets labeled on the aircraft with the appropriate mounting position. It worked really well and I couldn't find any extra play in the wires when I tried it both ways. Drilling in pairs ensured they were matches per wire.
So it was back out onto the grass under the frames I made from the boards for my build table, put into flying configuration, and leveled up. Mounting the wings was a fun thing by myself - my neighbor across from me, who has an unhindered view of my back yard, could be heard snickering at a couple places.
To ensure that things remain true, I double side taped some spirit levels to the wings. These were double checked from time to time to ensure the tape wasn't giving a false reading - but they were true the whole time:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig001.jpg
The wings are held together using a thick aluminum plate that's bent to the required 14 degrees in the middle. This was a pain, as the bend needs to be centered. Again, the right curse words and they were locked down with a few bolts. It was nice to see the wing level over the joints.
The cabanes were easy as well. Using the Baslee "Just thread the bolt, mount the wires as tight as you can and then tighten the bolts" technique is genius.
Mounting the wing struts was surprisingly straight forward; I just put the lower wings on, checked the dihedral a couple thousand times, and propped the ends up with a lawn chair to hold them in place.
Then came the hell of wires. The video says to leave a couple threads on the turnbuckles, tighten as hard as one can, swag, and then tighten the turn buckles. This is both true and false. True in that it will make the wires tight enough.
False in that "as tight as one can" is subjective. Based on my anger level, I found I could put A LOT of tension on the wires to where it took the box of the wings into a trapezoid when tightened. One must think happy thoughts of circling clouds with the sun dappling on the river below; at least that worked okay for me. I pulled using a set of pliers and locked it down with some vise grips, then did the swag.
Also, order matters. Rear lower wing, rear upper wing (both sides), front lower wing, front upper wing - and she didn't warp up.
Suddenly, she's in rig as the light was fading!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig008.jpg
Happiness is a spirit level on a wing showing a center bubble!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/rig007.jpg
Loads more to do before she can get taken back apart, though. The wires need trimmed (I left the excess dangling), and with the upper wing mounted I can put in the aileron controls.
I didn't tell of all the hilarious errors, like crossing the wires the wrong way so that they bent around each other, getting it right and level to see that I had put the turnbuckle on the wrong end (do over!), or the hour I spend looking for the end of a turnbuckle in the grass (hint- they're ferrous and rare earth magnets are one's friend).
With the wings mounted and in rig, time for the controls (yea!):
The ailerons and the elevator are push-pull rods, with the control column being a tube supported by two bolts that go through the lower wing carry throughs.
The ends of the tube have these hand spun aluminum cups that fit into them. Naturally, they were just a few [censored] hairs too big to fit. So a little work with the sander to squeak them to fit:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr001.jpg
Almost a fit...just a touch more around...
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr003.jpg
When they were to the point that they went in snug (and I mean snug!) I stopped.
For once I had the foresight to drill the holes and mount the hardware BEFORE attempting to size to fit. No way that nut is going on once the cup is in the tube!
Measuring the carry-through distances, I did some maths that were eventually ignored, as the cups add their own to the length.
And yes I know it's a French plane being built by an American, but my HB coffee mug is one of my favorites, and I don't mind the bier, either.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr002.jpg
Looks pretty good to me when it's in. The thickness of the walls of the cup weren't really compromised, and the whole thing to the dome of the cup goes in about two inches or so.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr004.jpg
To measure the length of the tube, I took a piece of wood, measured the 16" that are needed - center to center of the carry-throughs - drilled some holes and put bolts through them.
I mounted one end that's in the tube, mounted the other cup, and see how they lined up. Deep breath and cut.
Note the super crappy cheapo miter box; only way I can cut clean with a hacksaw, though once the build is done it's destined for the trash, as I've slowly taken it out of true by sawing through plastic as well as metal!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr005.jpg
Remove the floor of the plane, drill holes at the mark (incredibly, I managed to make them both perfectly perpendicular to the frame and where I wanted them), and mount.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr006.jpg
A few notes:
The aileron control thingie needed minor work as well, as the hole in the center had to be enlarged. Robert changed the plans to a bigger tube for the controls but didn't change the hole in the control plates - no big deal, that's what hole saw sets are for! I just riveted them together and enlarged the holes for both as one piece. Then drilled out the rivets and enlarged those holes for the hardware at the end.
One of the plugs that fit into the tubes that go to the aileron (those silver bullet looking things) isn't threaded. I could fuss to Robert about it and get him to send me one that's threaded, but a tap costs 1.35 USD and I needed to order some tubing for the seat anyway - I'll just thread it myself.
The flooring is toast. It's 1/8" ash plywood, and after I bent it to fit went after it with spar varnish. Then I drilled holes to fit onto the frame. I did not then remove it and varnish the holes. Between the leaky tent and being in a few downpours outside, water managed to get into the core and warp it in some spots.
Lesson learned and not only do I have enough plywood left over to make a new one, I can do a better job since I now know how to measure and cut the floor piece. It weighs about a pound and a half and is near the CG point so I'm not worried about W&B; since I'm a little guy I can add a little weight. Plus it does look sexy, even on an uncovered frame!
[edit]
Oh, and I haven't locked down those cups to the tube yet - I wanted to make sure they were in the right place and fit before doing so. The whole thing will come out to get firmed up once I know where the aileron control will go on the control column....it's a custom fit job, after all.
Control column is mounted! It was easier than I thought it would be in some ways, much more difficult in others.
First, though, my hand tap drill for the mount piece for the aileron came in, and when they say "hand tap" they ain't joking. Aluminum is soft stuff, and I gingerly screwed it down into the piece using very little force with a pair of pliers to turn it.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr007.jpg
Happiness is a threaded AN4 bolt.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr008.jpg
The control stick is one inch aluminum; the control column is two inches. The gussets have to be bent to do the transition.
My poor breaker bar and set of plans have been toasted pretty good when the roofs to the Wonder Tent were torn off, letting in copious amounts of rain.
Note the scrap pieces used for measuring to see if I got it right.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr009.jpg
I'd like to say I really measured well and planned out the bends. Instead I just TLAR'd it with surprisingly good results. Very little tweaking with a ball peen hammer was required.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr010.jpg
This picture actually is more about getting the mounting gussets on opposite sides than fitting to the column. The piece of zip tie marks the top of the gusset on the bottom as a guide for when I set the top one.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr012.jpg
Moving onto the column proper, I did some subtle marking to show where the aileron horn should be on it.
This puts it both where there's a natural path for the horn to go up and down, but it will be right below the bend of my knee when I'm seated in the aircraft.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr011.jpg
Time to put it on the bench to work on it. I used that board I had drilled holes to fit with as a mount, clamped to the work table.
First I locked down the rear cap in the tube with an AN3 bolt - probably overbuild, but that's okay by me.
Next I locked down the aileron horn using AN3 bolts to mount to the column and big rivets for the rings to the aileron horns.
Then I leveled the horn and kept it in place using blocks and a drill battery.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr013.jpg
That 2x4 scrap is zip tied to the stick to keep it steady as I worked it into the right position, using a level to schmooz it into the right position.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr014.jpg
Then it was just a matter of drilling it forward enough so that the bolt goes through the column and the end cap for strength.
With a washer between the gussets and the column it all moves smoothly with no binding at all.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr015.jpg
Took it all apart, primed and painted, and then mounted on the aircraft.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr016.jpg
You'll note a few things:
1) I used a slightly longer bolt than in the plans and shimmed it up with washers to give the aileron horn a little more throw.
2) I bent the stick in two directions to move it back about an inch - it was a bit too far forward for my liking, but is more natural now. I just squatted with my feet on the carry throughs to use as a guide.
3) A bird landed on the wet paint on the forward end of the column and I had to make a bad thing worse by trying to fix it. Oh well, in order to see it one will have to be standing on their head when the plane is done.
4) With the column in place, the stick moving the horn and forwards and backwards and I seated in air in the right position, it was the first time I really made some good airplane noises and looked around for Jerry.
One other thing I did was work on the inner lower wing, or more specifically, the left one.
Following the plans, the rear bow doesn't come close to the fuselage, as shown on the right wing.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ilw001.jpg
I had put a splint into the bow on the left previously, and removed the temp plug I had put on it to check fitness.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ilw002.jpg
Trim a piece of scrap tubing, insert, and now it goes up to the fuselage.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ilw003.jpg
There's still a gap, but that's by design. I wanted some room for when I tape and cover the inner rib that I'll have to modify to fit over the lift tang later. Any gap I can fix with some tape after its mounted if it comes to that.
Oh, and I forgot to mention the crappy tarp under the fuselage. Mandatory if using little washers and bolts and stuff on the lawn.
Good looking project... Since I've made a post... it should update me when you add to your Log...
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Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dogz
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Thanks for your response! I worry sometimes that I'm engaging in narcissism rather than helping another builder by showing my mistakes!
A few words before I get into things:
1) My first approach of leveling the horn and locking the ailerons in neutral position was overly complex. Is the horn level? Will the rod clear the fuselage gusset at full deflection? Let's guess! Or not.
2) Putting the floor back on gave me a nice horn stop. Heck, it's the floor, and I don't want to go past that!
3) Full deflection up horn (down aileron) worked best, as it showed me I was clearing the gusset okay. Doing both with up horn at the limits of both makes it center well.
4) When I bent my control stick I also bent it sideways. Sigh. When the horn is level (ailerons at neutral) it's thirty degrees to the left. Oh well, that's why I bought a little extra 1" tubing when buying for the seat.
5) TLAR worked wonders for the two 45 degree bends. I think if I'd of tried to get too sexy with calculations I'd of messed them up.
6) My fears of rudder cable problems were for naught. I mounted the rudder and eyeballed where the pedals will be and at full slip the cable won't hit the horn.
I have to say I'm getting really excited about the build again, up from a "this is cool but frustrating" feeling I've had with all the rigging woes.
Okay, a few things about this next series of pics and narrative - there's a whole lot of stuff I did wrong and had to re-do. So pay attention if you're doing something similar, no need to repeat my boneheadedness.
I will have to say I was pretty upbeat, as my Tent Lizard made it through the winter and though he looked a little bummed that he didn't have the fuselage in the tent to crawl around on:
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/liz04.jpg
So the methodology was that I'd work from max down deflection on the aileron and the horn to equal things out.
First I elevated the horn and used some duct tape to hold it in place. Note that I've choked up on the aileron horn to give me more throw.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr020.jpg
Then I used the duct tape again, in a slightly different technique, to hold the horn down on the opposite side.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr021.jpg
Bend the tubing to match up to both, measure, and cut. In hindsight I got really lucky here. I didn't really measure it - I just eyeballed, went into the tent with the tubing and a conduit bender, made four bends looking to make both tubes the same, and came out to find it was just right.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr018.jpg
I took a break here, needing some water and to check on the wife, and when I came back forgot where I was in the order of things and almost had a heart attack - the right aileron rod is too short!
No, idiot, the horn is down on that side. It's supposed to be too short if the aileron horn is up and the control horn is down.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr017.jpg
Too easy to switch sides on where the roll of duct tape is to the other side, match it up, and make hole for the bolts.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr019.jpg
A quick word on drilling the bolt holes through the solid aluminum fitting thingies: it sucks. Loads of patience required as it's a long drill time and stress factor is high because one only gets one try.
This is control stick number two.
Remember the pic of me putting a 2x4 next to the stick with a level? Okay, that didn't work. It was a utter failure, and the stick was actually 35 degrees to the right of level.
I dinked with the stick itself, making it a bigger ugly mess than it already was and then realized that no matter how the stick was bent the darned thing was 30 degrees off and it needed to be no degrees off. I threw out the stick and made a new one with just one bend in it.
This was wrong as well, but we'll get back to that.
Anyhow, the solution, since I couldn't make another hole in the front of the column (they'd run too close together), was to remove the bolts that held the aileron horn in position to the column, rotate the stick to 90 degrees to level, make sure the ailerons were level, and re-drill them.
I should have waited to drill the holes for the stick until after the aileron control rods were done and I could confirm level.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr024.jpg
No pictures of that nutroll, as I was too busy fixing my mistakes and really excited about the next part.
Tailfeathers back on the bird! Wait, wait, wait: fuselage, wings in trim mounted, and tailfeathers....holy crap, it's an airplane!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr023.jpg
That thing with the terrible red line drawn on it is the elevator control rod. Optimally, one would put the hole through the elevator itself at a hinge, but it didn't work out that way for me - it just won't fit that way with the fuselage frame tubes.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr025.jpg
The problem with this 1" piece of tubing is that it is as long as 75% of the fuselage and it kinda bendy. I spoke to Mr. Baslee and he said it needs a bushing. Bushing...bushing....oh, another tube inside it. Well, I didn't get the C9 part, which is a three quarter inch tube about the same length as the aileron control rod, but I just happened to have some left over from when I got some for repairing my mistakes with the fuselage.
The problem was I had two pieces that were long enough - if I spliced them together.
Here they are laid out next to the aileron control rod.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr026.jpg
What I need is a long dowel to hold them together in the tube until I can get some rivets in them and to stiffen up where they meet.
They don't make a tube for that, but they make a three quarter inch dowel/stick/whatever it is supposed to be used for at the corner hardware store.
I just needed to sand it down a bunch a little at a time while making sure not to take too much off.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr027.jpg
That's the stick in one of the tubes up to where I stopped sanding. I needed a handle to rotate it on the sander, and the dowel for a splice was already too long at 24 inches.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr028.jpg
Pull it out and cut it with a hacksaw.
I used a little wood glue on one side to hold it steady for the push, using a mark to make sure it didn't shift.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr030.jpg
Fits perfect! Having to splice stuff far too much has made this easy stuff.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr031.jpg
Slide it in the tube, making sure it's not too far to either end to allow for the fittings.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr032.jpg
Let's get back to that control stick, shall we?
Well, that one bend stick is nice, but it won't work. The stick, at level where the hand is at is actually full up elevator (back) so there's no room for it to travel.
Meet my latest nightmares - thick walled 1" tubing and a conduit bender.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr033.jpg
I thought about scratching the idea of using tubing with two 45 degree bends and make one out of wood, but then got mad and just bent and cut some tubing, confirming it one the template I drew out for a wooden one.
It's an ugly sucker, but it's the right length and everything. I cut an angle at the bottom make sure it wouldn't interfere with the elevator mounting hardware.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr034.jpg
Rivet the stick to the control gussets, mount it to the column, bring it to 90 degrees, drill a hole in the elevator and mount that hardware, line up the elevator control rod, mark, cut, and done!
I didn't take pictures of me putting rivets in the elevator control rod to keep the inner tubes from shifting around or the hardware on the elevator end of things (which is weird, I was so happy to hit the cut on the mark I usually take a photo of stuff like that).
So, stick centered and the elevator is at neutral.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr035.jpg
Stick back and the elevator goes up!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr036.jpg
Stick forward and it goes down!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr038.jpg
I am pretty danged pleased with myself at this point, to be honest. Controls are in and work as advertised. The nice thing about using rods is that one just can't reverse the controls on anything.
And that ugly stick? Well, I wrapped it in twine because I happened to spot a spool of it I had under my workbench and thought it might look better that way. Pretty cool, huh?
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/ctr037.jpg
Oh, note the three holes between the stick and the column. They're attempts to find the right spot that gave free movement through the fuselage. Lower is better - the seat height is dictated by the rod - and it turns out I could use the lowest one.
Naturally I had drilled it high to begin with, but I think I'll throw a bolt through it to make the assembly more robust.
Frank a question. On your aileron control horns it looks like you there is a hole out on the end but you connected the control rods closer to the yoke. Is that in the plans or did you do that to get more aileron throw? Don
A bit of both.
The plans show a hole there, so I drilled one there when I as drilling the horns to fit the rod that the ailerons attach to. Mostly because making holes in the big aluminum part of the horns was puckerful - only one shot to get them right with no do-overs or fixes; the only solution is to get another horn! So because it was easy I did it as a sort of reward for myself.
Like a lot of the plans, the location of the hole wasn't mandated but a mark of minimum distance from the end for safety, a "no closer than this from the end."
Similarly, the location of the control horn on the column isn't given by measurement. It's implied that they're placed a bit forward of center by the drawing, so I starting looking at where it fit on the fuselage for ease of travel and would be under my knees when seated - largest allowable travel. The ailerons don't need any sort of stop when one is in the aircraft; legs will work fine for that. In the plans, for example, the aileron control rods have a part numbers for the tubes and attachments, a basic shape and "as required" written for lengths.
When I spoke to Mr. Baslee he confirmed that getting the most throw is more important than putting them at the end as pictured, so I choked them up on the horn.
The Airdrome Airplanes and the Graham Lee Nieuports are kind of odd in how each evolved as plans. The actual Nieuport 17 is really just a larger version of the Nieuport 11, with some refinements to allow for a larger engine and an interrupter gear for a machinegun, but they're really the same design. Mr. Lee started with the Nieuport 11 and has in his plans conversion measurements to make it larger to make it a Nieuport 17. Mr. Baslee started with the Nieuport 17 (he made four for the Flyboys movie) and downscaled measurements for the Nieuport 11.* Indeed, my plans have marked out measurements (N17) and N11 ones put above them.
In both cases there are a couple minor teething issues when scaling up or down, like where the hole goes on the horn. In the N17 there's more room for the throw and the arms on the control column are larger; I suspect the hole winds up on the end on them.
The Airdrome Airplanes planes aren't really kits. They're material supplies in basic lengths with the required hardware included and labeled; every tube must be bent and cut to fit (all tubing is a bit longer than required, with very few exceptions. If one had the plans and a material list it could be "plans built." Mr. Baslee won't sell just the plans and doesn't include the master materials list; it's a neat way to both protect intellectual property and put a couple more dollars in his pocket (but not much more; his markup on materials is around two percent overall, and in some cases comes out as less than retail on hardware, reflecting his purchases at wholesale). I don't think one could purchase a spun aluminum cowl for anything less than a third more of what he charges for it - he's shorted himself on the labor there!
* Mr. Baslee refused to make a Nieuport 11 kit while Mr. Lee was still alive out of professional courtesy and respect, which I think is a rare thing in business. Mr. Lee was in many ways a pioneer in tube-and-gusset design, and N11's built from his plans are in the air and proving how he made building a simple, light aircraft could be done by the average Joe using common garage tools.
That stick is going to be remade in wood, btw. It's too kinked up at the bends for comfort. It'll do for now, though.
Chugging along, I realized that the order is fuel tank and then seat, as if I put the seat in first I couldn't fit the tank through the hole and forward!
The fuel tank comes sealed with four fittings ready for drilling and mounting.
These are the bottom two, and the only ones I'll be making holes in.
This is upside down, of course, and the bottom will connect to a drainage line and the one closer to the tank will be the fuel line to the engine.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank001.jpg
It's kind of a pucker drill, as one wants to make the hole without letting the bit run over to the threads. The key is to go slow - painfully slow - and let the bit do the all the work a teeny tiny slice at a time.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank002.jpg
Rinsed out three times to ensure no shavings are in the tank and hang in place with some bungie cords. What's showing is the two fittings I won't be drilling; they're for running a tube from the tank through the instrument panel as a gas gauge.
I'm going to use a Champ like float gauge for fuel levels instead:
1) Running two more tubes from the tank is two more points of failure.
2) The bottom hole to the side is on the other side of these, and I want it pointing backwards towards me. I'm going to run a line back to the cockpit for a fuel cutoff valve.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank003.jpg
I've decided to build a cage for the fuel cell to fit into, and pad it with some pipe insulation.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank004.jpg
The problem is that this stuff is awful styrofoamy and will probably get fuel on it. The last thing I want is a bunch of plastic goo sticking to a gas tank that is now shifting around because it dissolved.
Time for some material testing. I cut off a couple sections of it and am letting it soak in gasoline. I figure by tomorrow morning I'll know if it dissolves or degrades in any way.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/tank005.jpg
With foam deciding whether or not it's going to react to petroleum, might as well move onto the seat!
The bottom of the seat's measurements were a function of the distance between the rear of the cockpit and the rear carry-through, as well as the size of my butt. This is where being a 7/8 scale pilot lends a helping hand; it turns out it's about two inches shorter from front to back than a normal kitchen chair.
I used some poster board we had bought for my son's various school projects to make the templates. Hey, community colleges are much cheaper than four year universities and I need a seat for my airplane so it's a win-win as far as I can see.
It's not flat at the back, but that's okay as it's actually wider than I need and I fit on it well.
For the rear I used pictures from the original Nieuport plans supplied by a couple real replica experts as a guide, altering the measurements slightly to better fit the bottom of the seat.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat001.jpg
Refine the line to make curves from the measurements and cut.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat002.jpg
Fold it over on the center line, draw and cut for mirrored sides.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat003.jpg
Duct tape the back to the seat for a look. The top center of the back isn't flat because I folded it there, and I think I'll refine that initial curve downwards to be more gentle.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat004.jpg
Looks pretty good in the cockpit, though!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat005.jpg
A couple notes:
1) While I've seen a lot of great seats made from wood as it's supposed to be, I'll be making mine of sheet aluminum reinforced with tubing. It's lighter and much quicker (plus my wood working skills suck).
2) Don't tell my wife where her kitchen scissors went - she's been looking around for them for months now and I've been playing dumb.
3) My Harbor Freight big compass had fallen off the table and into the tarp I use for drainage. I can't believe that as rusted as it is the darned thing still moved freely.
And I have a new ritual of pre-flighting the aircraft every time I go out to work on it or are in the back yard goofing around. I found some paper wasps beginning a nest just inside the rear upper spar today. They're all dead and the nest was just the beginning mount and one cell, but sheesh. So now I will check every tube and opening on the plane for critters before I start any work.
Think "Lumbar Support"....
The Plane I'm building... the Jegs seats have it...
But my first plane didn't... I added it later.
Those longer flights made me realize how much I needed it...
Here's how I did mine:
http://www.wingsforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=4575
http://www.wingsforum.com/download/file.php?id=314
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Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" the Flying Dogz
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http://www.wingsforum.com/download/file.php?id=218
Hey, that's dead sexy as a solution!
Mr. Giger, I can't tell you how much I am enjoying your thread. I am building this plane with you, vicariously. Probably the only way I'll have the time or skills to do it! She is a beauty. Thank you for taking the time to post your work.
I'm much obliged by your kind words!
Hey Frank, me too! I just came back from Robert's shop last month. I had some business in Kansas City and couldn't pass up the opportunity. I've been following the Airdrome kits for some time and I was very close to pulling the trigger...then he introduced the SE5a. Be still me heart! Thank you for this photo journal. It is a great help and much appreciated. Please keep it going!
Yep, that SE5a looks a dream!
The builder's assist, known widely as the House of Pain, is not something to pass on. Even one day is like attending ten workshops on metal construction.
On to the seat...
So to bend the 3/4 inch tubing for the back of the seat I pulled out the Huffy Pro Bending Rig and gently went to work using the forward bending assembly (after removing the protective rubber gasket).
It's a little dimpled on the inside, but that won't be a problem.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat009.jpg
I annealed and flattened the edge of the tube around the back because I like annealing and pounding things flat and I wasn't confident on making the sharp bend on the mark required.
One inch tubing carried it forward to the end of the seat, which is actually a inch deeper than the paper template. I did a second set of measurements and that inch puts the end right over the carry through and really makes the seat more comfortable.
The side tube and the one on the front are coped to accept the one inch tube that will go down from the corner to the carry-through. A gusset will hold this to the seat when I get to that part.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat010.jpg
Support braces across the middle of the seat. The neat thing about doing this in sheet is that the seat itself is one big gusset.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat011.jpg
Here's the back template on the seat. Note that the ends don't go around the front (it's that inch I added).
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat012.jpg
So I just added some to the end and adjusted the curve to fit it on the sheet for the back. This is where that electric metal sheer comes into its own. Followed just outside the lines and sand it down to the right measurements and smoothness.
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat013.jpg
From here I put a rivet in the center back, with it lowered a little more than an inch from the flat - but flush with the bottom in the front. This tilts the back from the seat to make it more comfortable.
I clamped it in the front after that first center rivet and alternated from one side to the other, working to the front. After I made the bend to the left and right sides of the seat and had a rivet in, I bent the front inwards to hold the seat cushion.
A couple more rivets (including pulling one in the front) and she's a seat!
http://www.darts-page.com/images/Nieuport/seat014.jpg