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In looking at the FAA's response to the exemption and listening to some of the interviews they did with Earl Lawrence and Kirk Hawkins, etc... it would seem the response to that argument is basically the A5 has to meet all LSA standards except for the weight standard given that they were granted that particular exemption. Given that, would a Cessna 152 meet all LSA standards requirements (weight not withstanding)?Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
That's a great question, one I asked myself as well. I really don't have a clue because Icon and the FAA have set up a very peculiar and perplexing situation. Here's what we do know: Icon has the right to go to 1680 lbs. But they've locked in at 1510. They will produce conformity aircraft at 1510 lbs to present to the FAA and pass the SLSA audit at that weight. All production aircraft will therefore be at 1510 lbs and be delivered to owners with a gross weight of 1510 lbs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kmhd1
So if I'm correct about a custom built aircraft that can legally weigh more(and I'm only speculating here because this is all I can think of when someone tells me we'll do "something"), I'm suspecting that Icon would demand a liability waiver be signed as it's not to comformity but is still legal because of the granted exemption. So, here you have a confounding situation: Legal weight to 1680 vs. ASTM audit conformity to 1510. I'm going to write that email to the Sales VP and ask what they will do for someone who wants retracts and electric wingfold. I'll let y'all know what answer I get. Stay tuned.
Thanks Floatsflyer. I look forward to hearing their response!
I see you're on the east coast. Would that airport be in Maryland. I met a lady CFI who owns a flight school and a Searey dealership, I think her name was Helen. Very bright, knows everything about Seareys and she provided some very useful info and insider knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by kmhd1
Yep, that's correct. Helen was my primary flight instructor. Small world! :)
We've got quite a gray area here. As you say, Icon must ship airplanes out the door at the weight they've got their conformity aircraft at. Under the current rules, a person can buy an A5, then file the paperwork to convert it to Experimental LSA. They are then allowed to modify it as they wish, as long as it continues to meet the 14CFR Part 1 definition of a Light Sport Aircraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
But... an Icon A5 *doesn't* meet the definition. The production airplanes have a waiver from the FAA, but does that waiver apply to Experimentals?
For an Experimental Amateur-Built, it wouldn't, since the manufacturer is the entity that built the airplane "for education or recreation." Any waiver awarded to a third party wouldn't matter.
I think Experimental LSAs still list the original manufacturer, so I would expect that the waiver will transfer. But is the ELSA approved to 1510 pounds...or 1680 pounds? The waiver itself is to 1680, but the conforming aircraft used to prove compliance was 1510.
I'm guessing the 1680 limit will be the limit (no precedent to hold an ELSA to the SLSA's original weight). But what will Icon do? Every A5 taken into ELSA is no longer under their control by the Federal Aviation Regulations, but they'll STILL be listed as the manufacturer. Which means they still get sued if the plane crashes.
Another problem might arise due to the naivete of the Icon buyers. Supposedly, many of those aren't pilots...and even fewer probably understand the ins and outs of the LSA licensing process. If a guy buys an Icon and adds an aftermarket powered wing fold and retracts, hopefully the installer (A&P or LSA Maintainer) will enter the appropriate paperwork to take it Experimental. But will be buyer understand the legal ramifications of switching from SLSA to ELSA? Will the additional gear compensate for the loss of value due to its ELSA vs. SLSA status?
This is going to be fun to watch....
Ron Wanttaja
You've added more to the conundrum. It's starting to look like a very dark grey. Geez, I thought this was all over and done with last Monday, the 29th(my birthday BTW). Icon is the most interesting company in the world!(a take on that beer commercial)Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...
Well, it's not that dark...none of what I said affects Icon's ability to sell ready-to-fly SLSAs, which is their primary business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
The fringes may get a bit strange, though. The better the company does, the more it's in danger from the ELSA conversions. The jury ain't going to understand the difference. Might explain that snitch box Icon had wanted to include in each aircraft (flight recorder that they would retain ownership of).
The question now is: How many individually-owned Icon A5s will be at Oshkosh next year? Should we open a betting line?
Ron Wanttaja
Wont be too many, in Q2, the first 4 production samples are for FAA testing.In Q3 the commercial delivery starts, but wont be too many,Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
My crystal balling has batted 1000 so far. I said they'd get the exemption and I said back in April that the FAA and Icon would make a joint announcement to the hordes on the first day of Oshkosh.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
There will be just one Icon A5 at Oshkosh 2014. It will be the first customer delivered model and the Keys will be handed over to the new owner with requisite Icon fanfare and flash on the very first day. Now here's the kicker. Icon has never met a marketing opportunity it didn't like. The keys handover will take place not at their exhibit but at Phillips 66 show centre so as to accomadate as many press and attendees as possible. See ya'll there!