Nervous 1st-Time Airplane Buyer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people, and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.
Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

Bob, it has been a lot of years since I did it, but I didn't find my private flight test, or as you say, "practical" very hard.And solo is really easy, it is the same thing a student has probably done numerous times already, ( 3 landings )except this time the CFI is not in the plane.

---

Bill - take a look at 61.87. It's a checklist of everything a student pilot should know or perform to proficiency prior to solo. Quite honestly, to accomplish all of that, and not just be able to go around the pattern three times, it takes about 15-20 hours to get there.

These days, what I've found with my students is that the post-solo stuff is easier than the pre-solo training, and that it goes relatively quickly, with most of the remaining time taken up with the cross-countries and the solo flying.

At the end of the day, it generally works out to about 50-60 hours, although I've had a couple of outliers - one right at minimum time and one that wouldn't let me get out of the plane until he hit about 45 hours (perfectionist surgeon - what can I say?).

Finally, the practical should never be hard, because the training should have been that thorogh. The test is "only" a quality control check of the training the pilot received, and should be an opportunity for the applicant to show off what they've learned. The highest compliment I get is "the examiner was easier than you."

I'm going to gently disagree with you, assuming training is at an uncontrolled airfield.

I soloed in around eight hours with him, and that was bumped back after it was discovered I needed two more hours of xwind training and short field landings. I don't think I'm a prodigy or anything; I think I had a great CFI that had the checklist in his head and made sure we covered everything required for the solo. The only thing I did was study at home about the required stuff and whatever we had covered before and were going to work on next; if my CFI said we'd work on ground reference I didn't wait for him to explain what they were or what needed to be done during them in the air or shortly before going up into the air.

Both the solo and the checkride were anti-climatic for me. Indeed, since they could hear the chuckle in my voice on the radio (true zero-zero CAVU; it was like cheating) I actually went around four times. The day of my checkride it was 12 degrees F and no real heat in the aircraft, so I think I could have done just about anything but a spin and passed - the poor examiner was absolutely miserable and since I knew the requirements and suggested a flow to the maneuvers that was an efficient progression from one to the next he was just along for a normal training ride.

Quote:

---

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people,

---

I know you didn't, Bill -- I just mentioned that as a typical time these days since, as Bob says above, the FARs now require stuff prior to solo that used to be at the CFI's discretion, rather than a specific requirement, especially before solo. In fact, I don't think I could have soloed in the Aeronca Chief on a grass strip in the middle of a cornfield today, the way I did in just over 9 hours in 1969, just because of the changed training requirements -- nothing to do with people's abilities. I probably would have had to transition into something with radio, transponder and electrical system, as well as some instruments beyond very basic airspeed/altimeter.

Quote:

---

...and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.

---

I agree that most should have it around there, if they fly frequently enough -- once a month just doesn't hack it -- though there will always be exceptions. Note, though, that due to experiences I had over the years, I'd never guarantee that I'd solo anyone, let alone guarantee them getting a license, just because there are a very few people who have no business in an airplane (thankfully they are few).

Quote:

---

Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

---

The biggest single change isn't CFI attitudes (and there were plenty of bad attitudes back then too), but the FAR training requirements, as Bob says above. Certainly the GI Bill helped, for those eligible (many used it for college, though), in terms of affordability and of flying frequently enough (cuts the total hours needed), but the CFI is no longer allowed to see solo as "a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings." The CFI has no choice. By the time I quit teaching (late 1990s), there was no legal way (read safe from lawsuits, also, as well as meeting FARs) to solo a student under the same conditions/situations/standards that were commonly used 30, 40 and 50 years ago. Also insurance wouldn't cover any problems, either. I think it's probably a little worse now, too.

I'll side with the other CFI's. Like any profession, there's good eggs and bad eggs. Flight training has continually evolved since the airplane was invented, no constructive purpose in comparing flight training of today with that of another era. In the end, it's about being as safe as possible, not getting done in as few hrs as possible.

Actually, Innus, look at that checklist again and think of how it applies to the uncontrolled airspace of a corn field.

The standard is to understand airspace, for example - the student pilot doesn't have to be able to negotiate JFK.

That standard exists for Sport Pilots before they solo, too, and an SP ticket doesn't come with an okay to enter controlled airspace - that's a separate endorsement.

[edit]

Btw, they changed the rule to where the GI Bill can be used on flight training - SP to Commercial - just as I finished mine up two years ago.

And I agree that once a month is a sure way for a student pilot to make things too difficult; two lessons a week were perfect for me.

Bob, you write, 'not just to go around the pattern three times".

Now unless things have changed for student solos, since I did mine years ago, the solo flight is the SAME as it was back then. That is the student pilot takes off and makes two touch and gos and one full stop landing at the airport while the CFI watches.

So if that is not the case for your students, tell me what they are doing differently? Are they going to some xc distance for the landings/ Are they doing solo stalls over the airport?
I doubt it, and as a matter of fact I don't think I have ever heard of a student solo that was any different from this basic format.

Now, after my solo, I started going to nearby airports to practice patterns and landings and went on to dual and solo xc and instrument and night flying, but that was not part of the first solo.

This was the same as later when I soloed a T-6, not at my home airport but the one the CFI used, and for FAA approval for experimental LOA later, the same 3 landings at my home airport, watched by the FAA inspector, really except for the airplane, was the same thing that I had done on 1968 for my first solo of any time.

And I look at the FAR, and the airspace part says the student needs to be familiar with the airspace AT THE AIRPORT USED FOR THE SOLO. It doesn't say you have to know how to fly the N Y corridor in order to take a 172 around your home airport 3 times.

I would agree with you on one thing, Bob, having a student who is good, is more important than weather they solo in 10 hours or 20.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frank Giger

Actually, Innus,

---

Let's make that Lnuss, or Larry, Frank Giger :cool:

Quote:

---

look at that checklist again and think of how it applies to the uncontrolled airspace of a corn field.

---

Actually the airspace wasn't the issue, Frank -- it is the training requirements, such as cut power at 50 feet on takeoff (I'd need a different field for that), but primarily I was suggesting that 9-10 hours wouldn't work for solo, and there is a lot of stuff required now that wasn't then, getting back to Bill's thought of solo being "seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings." As opposed to the solo coming much later in the training process than before.

Quote:

---

The standard is to understand airspace, for example - the student pilot doesn't have to be able to negotiate JFK.

---

True, but back when I trained 8-12 hours was the norm for solo, vs the 15-20 plus hours today, largely because there were many things that are mandated today (cut power at 50 ft. etc.) that weren't mentioned in standards or FARs then.

Quote:

---

That standard exists for Sport Pilots before they solo, too, and an SP ticket doesn't come with an okay to enter controlled airspace - that's a separate endorsement.

[edit]

Btw, they changed the rule to where the GI Bill can be used on flight training - SP to Commercial - just as I finished mine up two years ago.

---

Back then the GI Bill paid 90% of everything, once you had your 40 hours for Private, so it was a great incentive to continue on, for those who were eligible, though many used it for college instead of flight training. Then later the GI Bill effectively went away, as far as flight training, then it came back at (as I understood it at the time) 60% payment. It's a moving target.

Quote:

---

And I agree that once a month is a sure way for a student pilot to make things too difficult; two lessons a week were perfect for me.

---

Three times is probably optimum, unless you can live it day in and day out (IMHO), but yes two days a week is very good.

Bill - First, I'm glad we agree that having a student that is good is far more important than the number of hours at which they solo.

Now, with that in mind...

I could train someone to go up and solo at a specific airport, by rote, and probably get away with it in 10 or so hours. But, 61.87(d) specifically mandates that the student be trained and log same in 15 different items. if you combine 61.87 (1) and (2) into every lesson (and I don't see how you would do otherwise), that's 13 individual components they need to learn first.

The reasons are clear - taking the simplest example, stall recognition and recovery. I want my students to be able to react correctly if they get in that position. How about an engine failure? They should have the skills to at least put it in a field. Ground reference maneuvers? Knowing how to divide attention in the pattern. And so on.

And just to start another controversy :) : My students don't do touch and goes. In an hour, you gain maybe two trips around the pattern. I'd rather see them get off the runway, taxi back, configure the airplane properly and verify everything's right, then take off.

Quote:

---

My students don't do touch and goes. In an hour, you gain maybe two trips around the pattern. I'd rather see them get off the runway, taxi back, configure the airplane properly and verify everything's right, then take off.

---

Good for you, Bob! Mine have never done them either, other than to learn how to do them. I think you gain more than you lose by doing full stop taxibacks, since that gives you time between landing and takeoff to discuss what went right and what went wrong with that entire time around the patch, plus it gives the student time to mentally absorb the lesson. That's in addition to building the valuable habit of always flying the airplane to a full stop, and eliminating the hurry-up needed to reconfigure the airplane after touchdown. And fewer TO&L are needed for the training.

And full stops are even more important in tailwheel aircraft.

I don't see anything about pulling the throttle at take-off:

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privilegesmust receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

None of the above is rocket science, and a student should be able to perform them reasonably in 10 hours at an uncontrolled airfield in a simple aircraft.

This is assuming the student shows up prepared for the next day's lesson and has decent aptitude, and the standard of performance is proficiency, not expertise.

On touch and goes, they were a requirement for me as a student. I had taxi and runup just fine and could land well enough - it was getting the turn from base to final right so that I didn't have a lot of adjustments to make that I needed work on. Did I slow down to taxi speed? Most times I did - it's a long airfield and both the CTLS and the Champ don't need a lot of runway to take off. In the Champ if you're not slowing to resting speed you've missed the point of a touch and go. But if there's a lot of runway left turning off and then back on is just wasting time and gas, IMHO.