Hey, I'm part of the governmental records!
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=LA
I'm surprised they didn't just jump straight to the final report, as that's exactly what happened.
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Hey, I'm part of the governmental records!
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...=HTML&IType=LA
I'm surprised they didn't just jump straight to the final report, as that's exactly what happened.
In light of the NTSB preliminary, I had to go back and review this earlier description. Please let us know what you come up with, and what you are implementing to keep it from happening again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
This reminds me of an incident almost 30 years ago, when I was one of the two people flying the original Fly Baby as part of a club within Chapter 26. The other member was flying, and one of the rudder cables came disconnected in the forward cockpit. He reached down and grabbed a handful of loose cable (it passes through the cockpit right by the pilot seat) and landed pretty much normally.
The post-mortem on this was interesting. Here's an overall view of the Fly Baby rudder system:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/rudder.jpg
The rudder cable attaches to a turnbuckle up forward, which then attaches to a flat strap of steel with a series of holes to allow (ground adjustability). A drilled AN-3 bolt and castle nut held the turnbuckle to the strap, with a cotter pin.
Unfortunately, the bolt was installed so that the cotter pin was on the inside...next to the pilot's legs. Over ~10 years of flying, enough pants legs had slid past the cotter pin enough times that it eventually work-hardened and broke. So, eventually, the cotter pin came lose, the nut worked its way off, and the bolt fell out, disconnecting the rudder cable from the pedal.
Here's where the "duh" moment came in. Over my previous ~4 years of flying that airplane, I had occasionally noticed my pants cuff snagging on something whenever I got into the cockpit. My ape's brain said, "huh, something pointy down there" but the logical portion of my mind never said, "I wonder if it's a problem....?"
It sounds like Frank's fuel fitting might be along the same lines...a casually noted issue, without the inferential leap to anticipating a future problem.
It's a good lesson for all of us: Pay attention to these little things. NOTICE stuff like this.
Ron Wanttaja
This is pretty close to the thinking I'm having on the root causes of the leak.
Because the sump dump was on the outside right of the firewall, the hose for it couldn't be lower than it was - and so the hose for it had to be above it.
I had the brass barb fitting pointing straight down from the bottom of the tank, with the hose going down, to the right above the runner that holds the rudder, and then into it. While the hose was clear of the rudder pedal itself, there was some slack as well.
So it could be a couple things:
1) Like the Fly Baby, as I was entering (or more likely, exiting) the aircraft I had been brushing the brass fitting (there was nothing around it, and it's a tight cockpit) and weakened it.
2) During the turbulence it either finally broke, the tubing moved to be caught by the rudder and pulled to snap it (which I'm starting to really think about), or
3) I somehow kicked it (less likely).
As to how to make it to where that's not going to happen again, I've been thinking of more than just a few improvements.
1) Move the exterior sump drain as close to center of the firewall as I can, and if I can't , put it through the floor. To heck with having a hose near a moving part.
2) AN fitting with a little cage of some sort around it.
Frank, just keep standing upright, putting one foot in front of the other and keep on having as many birthdays as you can stand!
Frank, the sump on my D.VII developed a crack so I ditched the sump and redesigned the tank with an RV fuel pickup and an AN fitting for the fuel line. Sumping is accomplished via a gascolator on the engine side of the firewall. This is a much more "aircrafty" installation and is working nicely. Let me know if you would like some photos.
I'd love some, of course!
gigerfr (at) att (dot) net is my addy.
Photos on the way.
Are you going up to Russ' place at the end of the month? Are you bringing your plane?
My plane doesn't travel very far. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
I figured you had a high-speed trailer!
After as much time as I spent re-rigging that aircraft I sure ain't taking it apart just to put it on a trailer that I don't have....then put it back together....then take it apart....then put it back together! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
Ah, the rigging isn't a problem, as the cables are cut to length and you most likely have easy to remember turnbuckle positions. This part surprised me in the Noop, as I've had to take the wings off and back on for a number of reasons.
Add in at events like Gardner and Russ' gathering there is always a couple three guys who know enough to not do damage (at worst) or are doing it themselves (at best) to help out.
I'm going to show up in Ohio on Friday morning just for that reason - to help un-trailer - as that is where the real conversations happen and the learning stuff, um, learned.
[edit]
The real concern is crap getting damaged in loading, transit, and unloading.
At Gardener we almost set a wing down on top of a big dog doo, for example.
Got a chance this last weekend for a quick evaluation of the fuselage and engine.
First: Man, there is a LOT of good left on the fuselage. The longerons are toast (I knew that), but what I didn't know is that when they deformed, it was at points where only a few of the cross members bent. Most of the side tubes are just fine, which is shocking.
Still can't get over how the right wings are pretty much untouched as well as the tail feathers.
Second: The intake manifold to the left side of the engine broke right at the head, and the rear bolt looks a bit bent. At best, it's a new intake manifold. If the bolt ovalized the hole in the head, well....
At any rate it's a tear down and inspection.
So far it looks like $325 for a new cowl, a couple hundred for the intake manifold, and maybe the same if I need a new head. And I haven't gotten to ordering tubing yet.
Oh, and I found some small gouges on the prop, so off to Alaina it goes for inspection and repair.
Initial evaluation...mostly good, some bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJoOjyeRlFs
I know nothing about the possibilities of repairing and remaking to new flying condition a totalled crashed airframe and engine. All I can say is good luck, hope you get to do it.
What impresses me though is your unwavering optimism and truly amazing positive attitude. If you could bottle and sell these, you would make more than enough money to buy a new kit and engine.
An aircraft is only truly totaled if one loses their data plate. ;)
Technically yes, mentally and emotionally not so much unless one is in major denial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
That should Fire you up Frank....Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
Gotta Fly...
.
.
PS I watched the video , I pictured you different than you looked. Now get a Haircut...
Hi Frank,Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
Haven't heard from you in a while in the forum. We hope you are ok
Yep, I'm fine.
The medical part has been, um, challenging. Further scans revealed that I broke pretty much every non-floating rib on the left side, which is why it's taking so long to heal. :)
Plus work. Sigh. Why in the world I agreed to working on aircraft is beyond me (okay, it was money), but they've really put me to work doing all manner of repair stuff, from resurrecting Cub ribs (terrible) to fabricating pieces (not so bad).
Indeed, working at C&D (who restored the EAA sweepstakes Cub and are doing the 50th anniversary raffle plane) has increased my building skills tremendously - even though it was building the Nieuport that got me the job.
To catch up, I've decided to just completely rebuild the fuselage - I'll use it for reference along with plans and my builder's log - reusing the controls, stuff on the dash, and a few other things.
Sorry to hear about the busted ribs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
Glad you decided to build a new fuselage.
There are many techniques for cutting thick aluminum sheeting for gussets.
Some are clearly better than others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw5JV_AbDps
Hey Frank,
When cutting longer lengths with my Makita Throatless Shear...
I run a little of that waxy stuff... or put a drop of thin oil every 6 inches.
Try it.
Gotta Fly...
Keep up the great work Frank. You'll be back in the air in no time.
Dale
My goal is rather than following the old saw of building three plane's worth of parts in order to make one, I'm just going to rebuild mine three times using just one part attempt each.
Back about 20 years ago when I was making digital forms of performance data I made some floppy discs and sent them to a very few people one of which was the Replica Fighter Association. Was I ever off the mark! He had a homebuilt Nieuport. A far cry from a need to decouple an nominal F-4 Phantom data base from war loads and flights. So I made a render of a Sopwith triplane flying over a downloaded Dystopic City. --- give me a moment.. I need to recover my wits. More recently, I found ther was a three wing version of my favorite WW-I fighter, the Nieuport. Up on my shelf here I have plastic model of a resin NI-17, unbuilt with unexpectedly subscale from 1/48th third wing conversion kit. Oh! Well, my question to you is do you know of anyone who has built a Nieuport triplane? Similar to your built but with 3 wings?
Nobody I know has the stones to build the Nieuport triplane. There's a whole host of reasons it was never put into production.
In other news, all the gussets for the fuselage are done!
I have to order some new hardware, though. It's amazing how much force the plane took for me, bending and twisting AN bolts.
I was very interested in how bending ribs you had to apply a very human calibrated force to achieve the correct bend on all. My experience with splines even in computer graphics forms showed me they can fall apart where joining at tangents as you rotate them in space. I am here to meet the ones first person with the structure and also the pilots.
It's all about being consistent from rib to rib, keeping one's feet planted and moving the body and arms the same way.
Sort of like a golf swing.
;)
And this, gentlemen, is the simplest way to make gussets out of .090 sheet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThHXzpvrLSI
I'm a bit behind on turning files on the computer into a build video, but here's about two steps back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPTeh1JAZkY
I've actually achieved all the tubing bent, cut, and coped for one side and about half the gussets in (for that one side).
She's looking more and more like an aircraft!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ss3drQ5VDY
Compressing hours of tedious work into five minutes makes it look easy!
Yesterday I was "snake bit" while working on the aircraft. Nothing seemed to want to cooperate with me, including my drill's chuck finally giving up the ghost and refusing to hold onto bits worth a darn.
After a few hours of not much real work getting done, I figured the best thing to do was to stop playing with snakes and packed it in.
Here's a video from a few weekends ago where work actually got done, including a bit on "welding' the fuselage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmuYIF3dFbc
:)
Oh, and after getting home I wasn't very pleased, saying bad things about the 30+ year old drill. My wife looks at me oddly and says "Well, we may have to give you your father's day gift early." She bought me a new drill and was keeping it secret.
Yep. Sometimes it's just better to stop when you are snake bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
BTW you're quite inspirational in that you had a crash and decided to build a new plane. Some people would have just given up.
*blush*
I take my inspiration from Bleroit, who never saw a plane he couldn't crash.
;)
Frank, I thought you would enjoy knowing that I am well underway on a Nieuport 11 project from Airdrome Aeroplanes. Your EAA thread has been a huge help, both for advice and for inspiration. Thank you! The fuselage is on the landing gear, the tail feathers are all framed and the wing spars/ailerons are assembled.
On your thread, the photos you post are worth their weight in gold, although many are now missing (past page 5 or so). Is there another place where these pictures are still posted?
Again, thank you for the inspiration to start and stick with my project. I hope your re-build is going well and look forward to seeing posts on your progress.
Mike
Nope, just on my poor website that does nothing but hold pictures for this thread. ;)
I'll take a look and make sure they're re-uploaded - thanks for the heads up!
You know, there are darned few Airdrome N11's out there! She's a sweet plane to fly, that's for sure. My only piece of serious advice I'd give is to take your time in rigging.
Rigging. Is. EVERYTHING. I spent a huge amount of time getting it right, going so far as to just scrapping the wires and starting over a couple three times. But the effort was worth it; not only would she fly hands free (still a little rudder input), but stalled gently straight forward on power off, and just a little dip to the side power on.
I'd be interested when you get to the "black hole" of the plans, namely the seat and the fuel tank. Oh, and I may need to beg a measurement or two as well. I can't find my page where it shows how far below the top longeron the bottom wing carry-throughs are supposed to go.
[edit]
Also, scan your plans. I really, really, really wish I had of.
The front measurement is 24.833" from the top of the longeron to the center of the carry-through. The back measurement is 25.812".
I did scan the plans early on and have had an occasion when it paid off. I'll be glad to fill you in on any missing pages (or parts of pages) that you might need.
Thanks for the advice on rigging. It looks like a fairly daunting task. Knowing that you scrapped some cables along the process will make me feel better when the inevitable happens to me.
Thanks for looking into those photos. They are a big help. (I copied your method of making the aileron leading edges...worked great!)
Hi Frank,
I emailed you and send some data over via WETRANSFER, it might have gone into your SPAM ???
have fun
Johan
[edit]
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
[Second edit]
Hilarious that it's the same "improved" full scale Nieuport 17 plans I received six years ago. :)