Sure it is racist to pick by race. The only solution to perceived bias is to random pick by lottery, with no prior knowledge of race, sex, age, height, etc.
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Sure it is racist to pick by race. The only solution to perceived bias is to random pick by lottery, with no prior knowledge of race, sex, age, height, etc.
OK. Speaking of "diversity," what's with the EAA pushing issues with women and minority (races)? There's nothing on the EAA website among "top issues" that says push diversity issues. Is this just creeping political correctness, or did I miss a hidden top issue or one of EAA's Values?
Nope, it's long standing, fundamental human being correctness. I think you missed seeing the forest for the trees.Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass
Not if the trees are selected only by type, not quality, for making spar wood out of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
If a candidate is the best qualified, race or sex or whatever shouldn't be a consideration. And simply because one is of a certain race, sex, or whatever does not elevate their qualifications in and of themselves.
This is the danger of "diversity for the sake of diversity;" first, the metric for qualification is changed from merit to racial or other group membership; second, it cheapens the qualifications of those who are truly the best, but happen to be part of a "diversity" group, as one never knows why they were hired - was it because they were the best, or to fill a quota?
If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Giger
Why do you believe that a meritocracy can't include the values of diversity? Why do you believe that merit and diversity are mutually exclusive? That's ridiculous.
Maybe we could start with the NBA.
Please explain how to create a meritocracy and do that while pushing diversity. At face value, it seems like you either have a pure meritocracy or you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
Sure am glad we started talking diversity and political correctness on the EAA forums...
Well, a thread titled diversity seemed appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazdaP5
But I'm still interested in an answer regarding the political correctness that EAA seems to believe will help put more pilots in airplanes and hold the line on FAA regulations. Guess I need to reach out to board members and see if they're gutsy enough to actually talk about it.
I believe you and others here are confusing diversity with affirmative action. These policy initiatives are disparate concepts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
I'm just here for the laughs and the entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazdaP5
Best resume is best resume.....
I disagree. They are absolutely related. To expend special or extra effort to recruit people of a select race or gender is directly related and similar to making special accommodations for people of a select race or gender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
Or worse, to exclude others because their race or gender do not line up with diversity goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass
Unless you believe that the EAA board is purposefully excluding POC, then the entire subject is more or less just rabble rousing. If EAA is purposefully excluding POC, then there truly is an issue. They aren't, BTW.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! That's like saying red and blue are the same colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Pass
If the best candidate that applies for a given job every time a job is posted is white, and the company wants to hire the best of those that submitted a job application, the company ends up with all white employees.
From the company's standpoint this is good. From the governments stand point it is bad. The government will declare it is bad for the employer. The government apparently knowing better what the company needs than what the company believes they need.
Decades ago when applying for an airline position I was constantly rejected since there was always some ex Air Force type with thousands of heavy jet hours in front of me. Every time. I never thought that I should have been able to fill a claim due to the airline always selecting the more qualified over me.
I am a diversity guy, my wife is another race. I am an engineer and aviationist for long time. All most everyone here doing the building are old white guys. No one is excluding women or other races, they just arent participating, Think about it, basketball players are mostly Black, should we have a similar rule for them?
However i agree with you. So how do we handle that?
Kurt- I am a “social justice warrior” as you put it. I am also in agreement with you completely on hiring the most qualified people period regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or any other category anybody can think of. I’m also a firm believer in social justice issues. Everyone deserves dignity, a sense of purpose, pride and a positive role in our community. We are fortunate enough to live in the wealthiest country on the planet. As such no one in our country should be homeless, hungry, sick or a societal outcast. Everyone deserves basic human rights and those are rights. If the Jeff Bezos’s of the world would simply pay what they are supposed to pay in taxes, as opposed to manipulating the system to pay zero in corporate taxes and then on top of it, receive 789 million in corporate welfare, maybe we could make America Great Again by ending homelessness, hunger and provide world class health care for ALL Americans regardless of income, class or social status. As a pilot, lifelong EAA member and proud American I stand up for what I believe is right. I think we can all work together as EAA members to help make not only EAA a better place but our world as well. We are all super fortunate to be in positions to own, operate and fly aircraft. Clearly to be able to do what we do, we have the financial capabilities that others might not. As such it’s our moral obligation to help when and where we can. For me, that means volunteering my time and aircraft to take disadvantaged kids up to Northern Minnesota in my 182 Amphib for a month every summer for floats, Fishing and fun. We work on life skills, Sea Plane Flying, Fishing, surfing, wakeboarding and in general have an amazing time. It’s not only great for the kids but it’s great for my girlfriend and I as well. I do what I can to have a positive impact on my community and I’m a firm believer in all of us doing the same thing. It’s simply the right thing to do. I follow the golden rule and I am my brothers keeper. It’s that simple. As EAAers and pilots, we all have that moral obligation and that’s what being a Social Justice Warrior means to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Flunkn
SJW. I'm sorry to hear that....
I will offer the observation that everything in aviation is colored by the experience of leaving the earth in a flying machine. Mother Nature and the laws of physics do not care what your race, religion, gender, financial success, position on social justice, how kind you are to other, or any other "soft" achievement is, all that matters is your skill in operating the machine and ability to make successful decisions about weather, mechanics, and other "hard" factors. Excellence is what gets you into the sky and back down to the ground successfully. Everything in aviation is colored by this. Including who self-selects to lead aviation organizations. Coloring flying decisions based on what we want rather than what Mother Nature and the laws of physics give us simply increases the accident rate. Moving fuzzy decision making into the operation of aviation organizations puts already fragile organizations on the path to extinction.
Best of luck,
Wes
Nice speech. But the laws of nature and physics have diddily squat to do with diversity initiatives which are created and administered by progressive HUMAN BEINGS.Quote:
Originally Posted by WLIU
Floats, a couple of other times in this thread, you've disagreed with people about diversity vs affirmative action vs a meritocracy. But you haven't offered your definition of diversity, or why you think it it is better or just different than affirmative action or a meritocracy which is blind to race/gender/whatever. Can you expand your ideas so I (we?) understand where you're coming from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
I've tried to stay out of the mud with the pigs :-), but these are good questions that deserve a reasoned answer. Here's mine - floatflyer may have other reasoning:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Here are some articles with links to actual studies and data that indicate the advantages to companies of diversity:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/240550
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ekateri.../#42fb5a042a8f
https://www.mckinsey.com/business-fu...ersity-matters
https://www.inc.com/ian-altman/5-rea...-business.html
There are many more, and these are NOT progressive/left wing publications - they're business publications, and wouldn't promote something that wasn't good for business.
If you view the EAA as a business (which is something that has been complained about here - that it's too MUCH of a business), then diversity can only help the organization grow and be successful, whatever you might think about the moral or ethical values involved. While my progressive side sees value in diversity in and of itself, my capitalist side sees diversity as an opportunity for a more successful business. The facts support the notion that more diverse organizations are more successful.
And I'll ignore "steve"'s poke at liberals on what is supposed to be a non-political forum - we're discussing diversity here, not politics. They're not the same thing.
It's not either or, in other words we dont have to choose a good mind only in old white men, as opposed to a lesser candidate in a woman or other then white man. I m sure there are plenty of bright businesswomen or minorities that would be good on the board. If you think women or somehow inferior youve probably never given fair credit to how hard being a Mother is or how hard it is to clean up the disasters men make.
I want you to Tell that to my 8 year old friend Jack who witnessed his Dad murder his mom as a 5 year old and has since started smiling and laughing since joining floats Fishing and fun. Get real Kurt and be a part of the soultion and not what’s wrong with our country. Happy to take ya up for some serious 182 Amphib time. We’ll fly in this year on Thursday and you can meet Jack in person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt Flunkn
To Steve and your #61 post: Edit: I see that our overseer has rightfully and correctly removed your post. Wish they could also remove your attitude.
Thank you for your insightful, intelligent and well-informed contribution to the conversation.
I'm very pleased to advise you that you have been unanimously awarded a Darwin Award. Congratulations, you deserve it.
Hi Steve, I agree completely that diversity just for the sake of diversity makes no sense. The most qualified person for the job regardless of anything else is just common sense. At the same time that Billboard is just stupid. It’s telling a ton of people with a lot of green money to take their money and spend it elsewhere and believe me, they will. That doesn’t help anyone at all in the Great State of Texas.Quote:
Originally Posted by steve
I’m what that Billboard is referring to as a “Liberal” but above all else, I’m a proud American. My Grandfather earned a Bronze Star and French Croix de Guerre in the ETO in WWII. He was part of the American Task Force that liberated Dachau Concentration Camp. He also was tasked with rounding up Aero Space Medical Equipment from the Nazis before his Russian Counterparts could liberate it. On one of his missions he came across a Nazi Battalion holding up in a Luftwaffe Hangar. He opened a door on the side of hangar walked inside and it was dark. He bumped into someone and that person said excuse me in German. My Grandpa pulled out his lighter and he realized he had just walked into a Nazi Hornets Nest. 300 Waffen SS to be exact. He then opened the main Hangar Door to let light in and could see all 300 faces staring back at him. In German he said they could surrender right then and there to him or they could wait and surrender to the 2 Russian Divisions that was just over the hill behind the hangar. After some discussion their Commanding Officer approached my Grandpa with his Luger Drawn. My Grandpa wasn’t exactly super confident at this point in his backstory! As the Officer neared my Grandpa he slowly turned the Luger around and handed it to my Grandpa. Following that all 300 piled up their weapons on the tarmac in front of the Hangar and their war was over. There werent any Russian Divisions just over the hill behind the hangar on that day but there was a Brave and think on your feet American with good old fashioned American ingenuity and know how.
My Grandpa passed away in 2004. One of his major life lessons he passed on to me from his experiences in WWII was to protect and look out for society’s most valnurable, disenfranchised and disadvantaged people. He always said never to use “Labels” when talking about people. Always treat people the way I would want to be treated and to Stand up for people that can’t stand for themselves. He said the measurement of a true society is how they treat their most valnurable people. The poor, the sick, the elderly etc. He always said It directly represents who we are as a people, is core and central to our fabric of identity and keeps us grounded. If my Grandfather were alive today and read your post he would have something to say about it. He would tell you that we don’t put labels on people. He would tell you that we’re all Americans and we’re all on the same team and in the fight together. He wanted to see everyone in our country have the right to pursue happiness and live their version of the American Dream. That’s what he fought for in WWII. If my Grandpa were alive today he would be absolutely appalled and horrified at what our Country looks like today. He would take one look at that Billboard and want to rip it down with his bare hands. Right now the entire playing field is so slanted that it makes my Grandpa’s ethos of Every American’s Legitimate right to pursue happiness and their American Dream a total joke. The game is so skewed that it’s impossible for the vast majority of people in our Country to just keep their heads above water nonetheless to pursue their dreams and find happiness. It’s UNAMERICAN and just plain wrong. As my Grandpa said, We’re all on the same team and we’re in this fight together. Labels just divide us and do nothing to help one another.
Notice one thing about that billboard if it really is in Texas. The land looks pretty bare, just dirt and not much grass. It is likely in West Texas, where there is a lot of dirt and a lot of oil and gas. And attitudes there are pretty right wing and rural, all of Texas is not like that. I just spent a couple of months in Austin and there most people are well educated and much more modern in attitudes toward women's rights and minorities and similar issues. Its not all rednecks and much of Texas is changing. And remember that Texas is a very big state, it is 1000 miles from the East side to the west side and about the same from south to north. Attitudes and experiences vary a lot from place to place. Some change is slow but steady. There are stiil a lot of people who cling to their guns, but there is also a type of medical marijuana that is now legal for children with seizures. There are some things that have changed since I was a kid there, and racial relations are a main one, most any minority can be served in any restaurant or hotel now, or go to any school, not perfect , but most people accept that as the norm, not so in the 50s. Austin is so booming economically that it attracts lots of overseas people, lots of Aisians now in tech jobs.
As for that billboard, its the right of anyone to express an opinion and be judged for it. The real meaning of freedom of speech is even for people who you disagree with. Hear both sides and let the truth be found, and that;s not a passive or unpatriotic view. Dont be so afraid of the other side's message that you have to run from it.Hear and learn from it, Ie Are tariffs good for steelworkers, but bad for aircraft producers? etc.
Diversity on the EAA board is a fairly narrow issue, it really is not nearly as broad as some big debate like that billboard. And the reason to seek diversity on our board is to enhance EAA not to prove a point. One of the big obstacles to growth of gen aviation or sport type fun aviation is to try to broaden our base, get some young people especially but also more women and minorities.
The key difference in practical application:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright
Affirmative Action policy places formal and legal obligations on a company or organization to hire recognized minorities and women that have been historically discriminated against.
Diversity policy is a voluntary informal action that a company or organization adopts to give consideration to those same groups.
Diversity is an undertaking to understand and accept the differences between groups of people by placing a positive value on those differences. It's about appreciating what makes them different in terms of age, gender, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc, etc. As a workplace or organizational strategy, it entrenches a conscious EFFORT to recruit diverse qualified employees.
Affirmative Action is a formal, legally entrenched policy that REQUIRES a company or organization to FAVOUR or PREFER those same minority groups who have historically been subjected to discrimination with respect to education and employment.
Companies, organizations, government, NGO's can sign on to both, one or the other or none.
I never really thought to consider the races of members of the board, cause, well, to do so might be considered racist. However, I believe diversity of thought on a board has merit. My experience is that aviators like to be judged by their actions vs. physical attributes, indoor/outdoor plumbing, or age. In other words, if I were offered a board position because of features beyond my control (color, age, sex), I'd take offense. Wouldn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by gmoore
Perhaps in an all white organization there has never been anyone in particular discriminated against. Perhaps each time there was an opening the best candidate for the job happened to be a white dude. Time and time again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
The company never discriminated against anyone. Along comes the federal government and mandates that lesser qualified candidates needed to be selected just for the sake of diversity. The company therefore has to settle for less than the best.
And when those lesser qualified candidates could not keep up with their peers then the company was forced to retain them anyone. Just for the numbers.
And this is better for the company how?
Bear in mind we're talking about the Board of Directors, not exactly entry level positions.
There is a huge difference from hosting a booth at a job fair in a HBCU to get applicants just graduating from college to apply to a company in order to increase minority hires and recruiting for the top positions.
The author of this thread simply wants "diversity" at any cost at the top of the organization. Screw that.
I'll ask it again. How many people outside of the demographic in question (Caucasian males over, say, 40) have run for the BoD? I've only been a member for a few years, and I'll be perfectly honest and say I have not paid that much attention.
Policies and attitudes and intentions have nothing to do with it if none of the candidates fall outside the demographic you're trying to avoid.
I doubt anyone "runs" for a position on the board. I assume the CEO picks who he wants in most corporations.
The Chaiman or CEO of EAA holds a vast majority of proxy votes.
"Meet the EAA Board of Directors who are elected by membership and help set direction for the organization."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Berson
28 white guys, 3 women, 1 black guy.
Only 42 members voted in person in 2017. Third paragraph here:https://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/ea...nutes-2017.pdf
And 28,000 members sent their proxies in, believing that the current leadership would make good decisions about which candidates deserved the support of those proxy votes.
Here is food for thought. Something like 10% - 15% of the members participated in the election. You can take this as a sign that the majority of EAA members are happy with the direction of the organization and the performance of the directors and staff. Alternately you can think that the majority of the members are apathetic as to these topics. That alternate view seems unlikely given the number of active chapters and the large number of volunteers that actively support EAA programs and Airventure.
Best of luck,
Wes
Well.....if Wes's post had appeared near the beginning of this thread.....this most likely would have been a brief discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by WLIU
Well stated.
How did you arrive at that conclusion? Wes's post is about voting for about one-fifth of the total number of BOD's. Zero to do with the subject here of BOD diversity(or lack thereof) and the makeup of them. Sheesh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan
I was waiting for you to respond.... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
"Zero to do with the..."
I was replying to the comment on how many EAA members voted in person.
That said, the stats also suggest that the membership is not prioritizing diversity of race, religion, or gender in the Board of Directors vs current quality of the programs and the convention. At least not enough to put forward credible candidates and gather votes for those candidates.
I see the barriers to volunteering to serve on the Board of Directors of any large organization like EAA as being ones of having enough personal success to have the financial resources, time, the knowledge, and the desire to help guide the organization. I do not see built-in organization barriers that prevent any particular individual from appearing on a ballot. If you look at every organization like EAA, AOPA, Ducks Unlimited, United Way, etc., you will see that for an individual to move to the upper levels, a resume with the right boxes checked and enough time-in-grade for name recognition, are required. I will note that I am still working on the personal success (read $$) part of the equation so you won't see my on a ballot anytime soon.
Best of luck,
Wes