Having had my identity and my wife's compromised 3 times already by commercial operations and now by the government, forget it. I will stay far away from anything YE.
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Having had my identity and my wife's compromised 3 times already by commercial operations and now by the government, forget it. I will stay far away from anything YE.
There is a way for everyone to work this out and win.
I fully understand protecting children.
A simple form with questions as to any criminal background given to the Chapter President. (Same as the Boy Scouts).
Have the YE Coordinator and President take the online course.
At each YE rally the coordinator will brief all the participants, volunteers, pilots etc.
A minimum of one "qualified" supervisor on the ground at all times.
For a one on one the childs parent or guardian must be present or a written permission waiver, with an adult present.
These are simple to execute, protect the EAA and the child, and life will move on.
The contentious points seem to be the background check, hey EAA, we don't work for you, we VOLUNTEER, and the restrictions on volunteers.
I fail to understand how this went through legal, the YE program administrators, the EAA board without any input form those actually flying the kids. Without all of us out there flying, donating our time and aircraft, EAA would not have a program.
Below is my email to Michelle and Brian of YE ..
In general, the Policy and the requirement for the background checks IMO are offensive, especially put under the sauce of "let's keep kids safe": as if we haven't.. Implementation of checks is at best not thought thru well, and at worst incompetent (I have some details in my email Ive sent below).
I like some options outlined above, especially the declarative one (ie, a checklist of sorts one has to fill out) if CYA is indeed that necessary. Another thing is that most of the things BG check will weed out is already weeded out via the FAA's Medical questionnaire, with the enforcement (federal felony for lying on it, is it?) built in.
Le Sigh. I won't get my 100 YEs shirt probably.. but heck, I got my cap and my pin :) I will still wear them proudly.
---
Michelle, Brian,
(Michelle, we have communicated a number of times in regards of our chapter's YE rallies and other activities).
I have just received the letter about YE's training and background checks. I have completed the training course: I do understand necessity of such things to protect Chapters, EAA, etc. Working for a large company, we have to go thru similar things at our work.
What bugs me a lot is the background check process. The very fact that a non-profit volunteer based organization would require it's paying members to go thru such a thing is unusual, strange, and somewhat offending. The necessity to provide your SS# and other private information is very questionable, especially given my relationship with EAA as a paying member rather than an employee.
What has caused this sudden change in policy, given 25 years of the YE program? Was there a lawsuit? What happened?
I have done a quick research on the background checks' provider, American Checked, and, frankly, even all the other concerns aside, would not be comfortable providing them any of my personal information; not even speaking of SSN, especially in this day and age of ID theft, etc.
Their Privacy Policy is very basic and aside from "we don't talk to anyone and your information is well protected" is leaving a lot of questions open.
Doing a bit more research, I find it even more questionable.
The redirect page for the check is leading to some obscure domain (www04.8f7.com, registered via a domain proxy w/o ANY references to "American Checked", see http://www.whois.com/whois/8f7.com), makes it look like a prime phishing attempt: phishing being a hacking technique (mis)leading victims to submit their private information to a malicious party.
Their SSL Certificate (basically, a thingie that confirms that the website is legit) was issued to BackChecked, LLC in Phoenix, AZ: while on their main website (http://americanchecked.com/) they list themselves as "AmericanChecked, Inc" in Tulsa, OK.
Even assuming they are legitimate, and the domain is indeed theirs, such a configuration via obscure URLs and SSL certificates issued to entities other than named on the main website as they have raises questions about their IT folks' professionalism (to me as a Security Software Architect, frankly, this looks like something done by unprofessional and or careless people). Basically, "if those guys can't set up their web stuff properly, how would I trust them to safeguard my SSN"? To give an aviation analogy; I would never trust a mechanic that consistently forgets to torque and safety wire my prop bolts do my engine overhaul.
Even forgetting all this and assuming their setup was top-notch and I had no issues with them, what happens if they leak? (Even the best do; case in point: NSA). What if an EAA Member's reputation, business, social standing, etc, is damaged due to this background check process? Lack of any formal communication from EAA describing these possibilities and how they will be handled is not adding any confidence.
Bottom line is, in my humble opinion requirements for such background checks would've been reasonable if we were to work for a CIA, FBI, or other similar type agencies. This seems very troubling as a requirement to continue engaging in a weekend, hobby volunteer activity, which YE is for the most of us.
Personally, my participation as an official Young Eagles pilot and coordinator will probably end if the background checks requirements are indeed implemented. I am positive that a vast majority of YE pilots and volunteers would have similar opinions, possibly putting the whole YE program in jeopardy.
I hope this is not how it will end.
I was trusting and went through with it and took the online training and submitted my information for background check. Now you guys have got me worried (slightly), but I'm fairly confident I will have no issues with identity theft.
So remind me again, what is the big deal about someone getting your social security number? A mere 10 years or so ago the private pilot certificate number was your SSN. I remember giving it out routinely on employment applications, etc. It used to be on my driver's license. I've given it to numerous employers over the decades.
What can the Rooskie hacker do with my SSN, anyway?
Well; your name, address, DoB and SSN is pretty much all that's necessary to apply for a credit card, bank account, etc. In addition, these guys will go and proactively solicit information about *you* that you probably wouldn't want to leak... What does show up on the "background check" they run? I don't know.
There are two issues I see with this.
1. Provider vetting @ EAA. I think this is a minor one and could be attributed to possible inexperience. I think EAA could be easily persuaded to change the provider by an uproar of the pilots.
2. The actual "Youth Protection" Policy, and a requirement of the check in itself. I see this as a much bigger issue of intrusion, presumption of guiltiness, and basically all the rest that's wrong with the social climate nowadays. These policy and requirements IMO fall into the same bin as TSA (http://bit.ly/1KtbIbB), Patriot Act as a response to ~3000 deaths (while horrible, a drop in the ocean among other things), CPS harassing parents letting their kids run around the house w/o a leash, etc. To me personally, YE was a breath of fresh air in all the BS we have subjected ourselves to.
This keeps getting worse, and each steps with each of the programs and mentioned here organisations (I unfortunately am one of those transplanted Rooskies so haven't been exposed to much of them as a kid, so only can quote: CAP, Scouts, schools) leads us to a society more and more disconnected from reality (where risks Exist, from the capital "E").
Just discussing this last night with my wife (who originally seemed to have liked the requirement); we made an argument that this is very close to a situation where, when at a hospital just getting a newborn, she's taken away from you into foster care unless you pass a background check.
I don't want our society (which in most aspects I am proud to have been transplanted into) to go in that direction.
SSN on the pilot cert was done by lazy federal bureaucrats instead of making a new number. It was done before identity theft was such a large problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
The question is what can be done with that, combined with data from other sources? Your birth date is on that check too.
In Connecticut, our sleazy politicians made voting records public information so they can robocall us. Combine a few sources, and you could apply for loans that won't be paid back, file a fake income tax return for a refund, apply for credit cards.
ok, I am in Canada, so it will be interesting to see if this affects the twin COPA for Kids program. I hope not.
Since nobody had raised this option; the parents are already signing off on a liability form that says we are all licensed pilots, we and the aircraft are insured etc.....but that they are acknowledging some risk........why not simply add a line something like, 'your child may be alone in the cockpit with a volunteer pilot, photos will be taken at this event, if you are NOT ok with that, do not allow the child to participate.'
does that not address the issue from the correct end?....the common sense one?
You were never required to use it. The FCC always (at least since 1981 when I was first licensed) allowed you to have a non-SSN number assigned. Most CFIs did this anyhow lest they have their SSN in every student's logbook they ever taught. It was way after people got hinky about SSNs that the FCC mandated you COULD NOT use your SSN any longer (I had the SSN on my certificate but they gave me a new one gratuitously int he 1990s if I recall properly).Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDow
I must admit I am surprised at the number of volunteers who are bailing and are apparently perfectly willing to see the demise of Young Eagles over this. It must have taken lots of work and organizing over the years to get YE up and running. There are forms, insurance policies, procedures, etc., set in place requiring many years of hard work. And yet, I see pilot after pilot say they are out. Goodbye and good luck. All of this fuss over a simple background check, not surprising in these tense, litigious times. Pilots willing to see the whole endeavor go bust. Down the tubes.
Wow. Just, wow.
One of my biggest concerns is that there will be so few planes and pilots left in the program, undue pressure will be placed on those willing to fly the dozens of kids lined up for a ride. Most remaining pilots will not be willing to disappoint the kids, and will wind up carrying all the load.
I am sensing a bit of a herd mentality here. One guy says he's bailing, and the mob joins in. Over a SSN? Can't we look for a solution instead of watching the destruction of YE?
Actually, I would like to see every member bail on Young Eagles. Not because I want to see the Young Eagles program die. But instead, to save it from this sort of bureaucratic nonsense. Call it a strike if you wish. But if every YE pilot told the EAA to stuff it unless they drop this silliness, the EAA would have to choose between the pilots and their lawyers. If they want the program to continue, they send out a letter of apology and continue on as they have. It's not the pilots, but the EAA Leadership that is willing to kill the program.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
As for me, I have held high level security clearances for my employment for the last 42 years. In return, the Chinese now have more information about me and my family than I could quote off the top of my head. So the EAA wants me to submit the same data to an unknown entity to perform a background check in order to volunteer to share what I love to do. No thanks. I was taking kids for rides long before the EAA ever cooked up the Young Eagles program. Their $1M additional liability insurance isn't worth what I have to give up to participate. So I'll return to what I was doing before there was an EAA program. I'll haul kids that are interested in flying for free, any time they want, without the constraints of the EAA programs.
What this move tells me is that the EAA has been working too much with the government and much like the government, is now being run by the lawyers. So this former Chapter president, former Flight Advisor, Former Tech Counselor, and now former proponent of Young Eagles, will take yet another step back away from the EAA and their lawyers. I will be introducing a motion for our chapter to suspend any further YE chapter events until the EAA can get their heads on straight again.
-Cub Builder
(edit: Cub Builder ^^^ above said it much better than I have below)
Young Eagles as a program that demands that:
"Staff and volunteers may not initiate meetings or interactions, or extend their relationship with any Youth to other activities (except for supervision in other sponsored and organized Youth activities)."
" If possible, the staff member or volunteer should encourage the parent to be present and acknowledge that the touching might occur. " (speaking of buckling them in)
"Staff and volunteers are strictly prohibited from taking photographs of Youth participating in EAA-related programs and events for personal use and from posting photographs depicting such Youth on social media or websites."
to me seems as not what it was ('let's all have fun and fly kids and introduce them to aviating'), but turning into something with rigid structure mandated by Lawyers. If so, yes, it deserves to die.
Stopping flying kids to get them hooked onto aviation? Absolutely not! I don't think that any of us who are considering bailing will stop flying kids altogether thinking that "oh, well, now I am no longer covered / have EAA behind my activity... I guess this is too dangerous now, I will no longer do it 'cause I might get sued". I think that most of folks bailing due to these checks and new policy don't tend to think this way at all.
eHotline just out, http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-a...V1t6UKWA%3D%3D
The company working with EAA in this process, AmericanChecked, is among the leaders in the industry and works with many colleges, school districts, and governmental agencies. A top priority of the exhaustive process to select the right company to work with EAA and its volunteers was the safety and security of any data collected. More information on that is available on the FAQ webpage, and we welcome questions and suggestions at any time at feedback@eaa.org.
:mad:
Uh, my information was stolen from the Office of Personnel Management…. You know the Federal Govt. No way am I going to trust some little heard of company with my personal data. I have SEVERAL background checks run on me a year from my employer (Airline), the ATF…ETC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
My wife had her ID stolen… This was 8 years ago and we are STILL dealing with the fallout from it.
I had planned on trying to hook up with the YE program… Not anymore.
I have nothing to hide except my personal data from hackers and people looking to sell it.
My guess is that most of those saying they will "still give rides to kids" won't give rides to kids. My experience with Young Eagles is that they have an organized event at such local events as my home base airport Open House. Free rides are advertised, and literally hundreds of kids from the community and their parents show up line up for a ride. That's what's going to die if YE dies. But, to each their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by fidot
It's not the background check by itself. read the whole policy. It is more restrictive than what the Boy Scouts do and they have had problems! It is the requirement for ALL the volunteers to undergo this "training" and background check. It is the accusatory attitude of the EAA even to the point of helping a kid put on a seat belt. Our chapter works with another very well thought of organization that sponsors scholarships for kids. Imagine me telling them they have to undergo the checks and take the course? Or the school teacher of the aviation club they have to do it? Or the dean of the local college that sponsors an aviation day camp? Or even my wife who sits behind a table and handles paperwork and prints certificates?
Myself, I have nothing to hide, but won't give out my SSN. My info was hacked when some hackers hacked the State's system! Do I trust the EAA or this background company...no. As for the other provisions of the policy, they are unworkable, impractical.
Will I continue to fly kids? Yep, just not with the EAA. Too bad hundreds if not thousands of kids just lost their rides.... so much for promoting aviation. EAA, you screwed up... bad.
One thing I do find ironic. The EAA is going on and on about the 3rd class medical, to get the FAA off the backs of the pilots etc. etc. then they do this.
Almost 2 million kids flown, how many cases of molestation at a YE rally, flight or directly attributed to the YE program?
I agree with just about everyone's said so far. But another aspect we haven't addressed is of the Chapter officers & board members themselves. We're protected by the EAA insurance, but if something happened and it was determined that the individual and/or chapter governance were not trained, whoooboy.
Makes me really wonder about my board position. And, yes, I'm another one with very high clearances hacked while at the OPM.
How many of you file your income taxes using TurboTax? Do you file your return over the internet? Gee, as I recall, your tax return contains your name, address, DoB, and SSN. Of course, nothing can go wrong with TurboTax or the IRS. Perfectly trustworthy.:)
But go ahead, trash the YE progam
You clearly have not ever had your ID stolen. A woman in CA had my wife's info, she had bought a car, rented a house, taken out scores of credit cards, a line of credit at several stores.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
The police? No help at all. My wife and I tracked the woman down. We then had to call the local police and hassle them till they arrested her. We had to send a copy of the police report to them, our local police would not be bothered… After all it was "just ID theft".
We had to contact lender after lender and go through the same BS every time. First they accused us of just trying to get out of "our" debts. They would call and harass us at our house. When we told them what happened, they ignored us and one told my wife she should "Quit being a deadbeat and pay her fu(king bills"…. We had to send copies of the police report, copies of the woman's arrest record… Over and over and over. 7 years later we STILL get some contact over this.
When we tried to buy a house? Yep, her credit was damaged over all this and we had to go through pages and pages of data and add weeks to the process. Did you know how important a good credit rating is? Well, our house loan was going to be at a higher rate until we went through all the process of fighting each and every creditor that claimed we owed them money. And you know your car insurance looks at your credit rating? My wife HAS to disclose her financial information for work. We had to jump through hoops there as well…. You going to use a financial planner that has credit problems?
I had my data stolen because the Govt granted me a clearance. THE GOVERNMENT. I had to give them my data… And they lost it.
So the chance I am going to give my data to anyone over some BS… NIL.
FOLKS, LET'S STOP OVER REACTING. None of this is that unusual or unheard of. Yes, we used to live in more innocent times, when pilots flew around in open cockpits with leather caps, goggles, and scarfs flying in the wind.
Times have changed. Here are some other recent examples of organizations that require checks of adults in contact with kids.
http://www.scouting.org/BSAYouthProt...wtheFacts.aspx
http://www.girlscoutsosw.org/content...d_Check_QA.pdf
Here's a government publication on the matter.
http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...ualAbuse-a.pdf
I have no problem with a background check. I do have a problem providing PII data to an anonymous site. In any event, these new rules aren't a panacea because they only uncover past evidence of an actual conviction. It does nothing to prove future intent nor uncover a nefarious past if a monster has never been caught. So I see a lot of risk for the participants but little in the way actually providing the security they are trying to achieve. I have a high level security clearance so count me out until they eliminate the SSN requirement.
Yesterday I got very sad news from your EAA Young Eagle program office at Oshkosh. Dressing up new policy as “Introducing the Youth Protection Policy”, effective immediately, all volunteers wishing to participate in the Young Eagles program will have to go through a 25 minute online training course. After that, each volunteer will also have to submit personal data to a third party vendor to undergo a background check (paid for by EAA with your dues) with results hopefully coming within 10 days. This would have to be repeated every 3 years. There will also be a 10 page set of rules for volunteers to follow and for coordinators to enforce during any event.
With utter disappointment, I called both the numbers listed on my letter as mangers of the program. This change was not brought about by any event but by direct orders from “corporate”. They said “best practices” were to develop this program since other youth activities had similar programs. I think the saddest part was the manager calling a non-profit meant to promote aviation “corporate”, maybe his lack of courage to stand up against this useless program, or maybe the fact this program would not address first time offenders which would be 99.999% of the cases.
Tonight I met with our chapter president and we reviewed the materials presented. We talked about options and weighed possible outcomes. If we decided to take on the additional scrutiny, finding pilots and volunteers would become more difficult. There is even more critical rules for 2 seat airplanes, such as a cub, that result in more guidelines. We would not have a problem finding qualified individuals, but we would find a lack of interest in volunteers who give up so much already, bothering with additional scrutiny and invasion of privacy. This program would not find any first time offenders, which is probably 99.99% of them.
It is with great sadness that I must report that our chapter has suspended our Young Eagles program for the foreseeable future. Due to increased requirements and burdens placed on EAA1560 by EAA “corporate”, we have been forced to to take this action. For many of us, this program is the only reason we are members. I personally spent hundreds of hours last year dedicated to Young Eagles. This breaks my heart that we will not be able to share aviation with our local youth anymore.
If you would wish to contact (and I encourage you to do so) those responsible for the Young Eagles program they are:
Dick Knapinski
Director of Communications
(920) 426-6523
dknapinski@eaa.org
Brian O'Lena
Manager, EAA Young Eagles
(920) 426-6297
bolena@eaa.org
Michelle Kunes
Program Coordinator, Young Ealges
(902) 426-6114
mkunes@eaa.org
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by cub builder
And ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by CarlOrton
are why I'm taking a stand.
From 'the manual'...
Flight Programs. Due to the nature of some of EAA-related programs (e.g., two-seatYoung Eagles aircraft rides), there are times when it will be impossible for two (2) adultsto be present in an activity involving a Youth. In such cases, the staff member orvolunteer should take particular care to ensure that the Youth and their parents areaware of the circumstances.
So, am i to interpret, that if you have a more than a two place airplane you 'must' take an 'supervisory' adult with you while flying the young eagle?
More From 'the manual'...
EAA chapters and other operators of EAA-related programs and events will maintain orderlyand accessible records for each Youth participant in chapter activities. The maintenance periodwill be not less than three (3) years. See the attached Waiver & Permission Slip Matrix. Theserecords will include:
- Parent contact information and other emergency contact information.
- Acknowledgement of receipt of policies on discipline, prohibited activities, and sign-
in/sign-out procedures.- Activity-specific permission slips, dated and signed.
- Attendance record of the dates on which the Youth participated in EAA-related
programs and events.- Conduct and behavior issues and resolutions.
- Incident reports.
This is an increasing administrative burden, with record keeping requirements approaching the IRS requirements. Young Eagle registration form. Parent Waiver. Details record data base, inclusive of 'conduct and behavior issues'... each chapter will need a Corporate HR department to 'manage' the events.
This is the extended burden that, beyond the concerns of the background checks, will put a significant strain on performing young eagle events, especially for smaller chapters.
Lastly... what then are the requirements for a one-on-one Young Eagle ride, i.e. non-rally Young Eagle rides?
Bryan
The silence from HQ on this thread has been deafening, and I'm certain they are watching this discussion. I for one would like to hear their side of this. Clearly this didn't happen without some high level consideration of the cost-benefit analysis. I have a pretty good idea where this came from within HQ, and I would like to hear from them. This has a chance of causing real damage not just to the YE program but to all of EAA. I think you owe us an explanation beyond just PR speak about best practices and risk management.
I still fly around in an open cockpit with leather gap, goggles, and scarf...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Scout leaders spend a lot more time with the kids, take them on camping trips, etc... a lot more potential for (and history of!) creepy behavior than a 15 minute flight in broad daylight with the parents watching them when they get on and off the plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by fidot
Is it possible to form a group of folks interested in taking this on with wherever this came from, and having a meeting with them? I'd be more than happy to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Point
If the goal of all of this was to limit liability and I am sure it is, then EAA would have been far better off to buy insurance !!!. This is going to cost a heavy price if they persist with it.
Just who on earth determines what is "best practices?" There must be some money in it for someone.
The legal department in consultation with the HR department.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleapgmc
Your SSN is probably the most important piece of your paper identity, and there is absolutely no reason to provide it for a criminal check. It's just easy for America Check to do their job using it vs just name and address. So if they're lazy on that aspect of their business, where else are they cutting corners?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
My company manages information that my State deems sensitive. All my employees, vendors, landlord and even cleaning staff must sign a Secrecy Agreement from the State. So when a company starts asking for completely unnecessary information to perform their service, it makes me question their reasoning.
Strange that some of you think a private company must be less secure even after the government let hackers have your data.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
Actually, the breach last year *was* a private company...under contract to the government. The government then terminated the contract for cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by dougbush
Ron Wanttaja
It is sad times we are living in.
I heard from a friend regarding this issue and was told that both his YE Coordinator and chapter president resigned over this issue.
My question is, why not allow an alternate means of compliance? ie. Why can't I show my CWP (CCW, CCP, etc.) to give rides? That proves I passed a background check.
As for me, I an a long time IT guy and no way is the EAA getting my SSN for all the reasons listed above. Heck, I do NOT like the fact that my insurance company has my SSN!
Anything is possible, however I'm afraid that genie is out of the bottle now. HQ was warned in advance and was well aware that this would be the likely reaction, and they chose to do this anyway. That's why I would really like to hear their rationale. I'm trying hard to give them the benefit of doubt. Perhaps their insurance company said they need to do this or lose the YE insurance coverage? That's just a wild guess, not based on any information, but it could be one rational explanation. We need to hear it from them, and soon, before this thing snowballs even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by fidot
Your CCW doesn't show that you have no criminal history, at least not in the two states I hold them in. It shows you aren't a felon and don't have a DV conviction or in the case of Virginia MULTIPLE class 1 misdemeanors. "Sexual abuse of a person under 15" only rises to the level of misdemeanor here. You could still have a CHP with one of those.
My problem isn't so much with the background checks and training (though I think they are really going to screw up the operation of a lot of the rally's where other than pilots, it's getting pretty damn hard to find any volunteers let alone vetted ones), it's just a sign of the time.
The big issue is EAA's dumping this policy on the volunteers with a completely half-assed implementation. The training program appears BUSTED. I completed it but it gave me some obtuse error about not being able to save my results and the use of a completely dubious provider with a suspicious and unverifiable web form asking for sensitive information is the problem.
I can't even go further both my course and the background check are wedged in EAA la la land. Apparently, nobody developing serious web applications (ran into the same problem at the drone registry) can freaking spell TEST anymore.
If Young Eagles dies over this.... It will be classified as a suicide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Would logic indicate that, given the large number of children on the grounds at AirVenture, similar background checks should be required for all volunteers there? KidVenture jumps out as one of the most obvious venues. Just sayin'......
Jim
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by cub builder
bjc
Careful what you wish for......Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rosenow
Not 'wish for', Marty. Hope to avoid thru the strenuous application of logic.... YE vetting impacts us... AirVenture vetting affects EAA 'corporate' bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by martymayes
Jim