Why I'm against bringing the Thunderbirds

I'm not convinced it will be a smaller area. Frankly once you get 30 feet back from the burn line it's pretty sparse. I park on the far side of the road and there's never anybody there during the airshows.

While an F16 or a Concorde or whatever may be interseting or mundane to us, believe me it's a draw to the average crowd. My wife runs a large event at the Air and Space Museum. In past years I've put 250 kids in and out of my Navion as one of the exhibit aircraft. This year, United brought a 777 to the event and everybody made a beeline to that. The gate counts were about the same, but I only handed out about 150 cards rather than 250.

While the Thunderbirds will draw the attention of the general public (as in non aviation people) and I'm sure several EAA members, I could care less. If the EAA is looking for revenue, So be it. For me I will wonder the less crowded grounds while every one is watching them perform. Sure I'll look up every once in a while to see whats going on, but If I see a particular thing I'm interested in it will draw my attention more than the airshow.

On a side note, I just read on the website the news about Friday night at Theater in the woods. Might be fun to go to, but there is some inaccuracy in the post.

"The team has always used combat-capable fighters for its performances."

That quote from the news is wrong. From 1974 to 1983 they flew the T-38 Talon which is a trainer, not a combat capable fighter. It was a trainer..If you read the news it sounds like they switched from the F-4 to the F-16.

Dave in Missouri

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Originally Posted by scuba72

While the Thunderbirds will draw the attention of the general public (as in non aviation people) and I'm sure several EAA members, I could care less. If the EAA is looking for revenue, So be it. For me I will wonder the less crowded grounds while every one is watching them perform. Sure I'll look up every once in a while to see whats going on, but If I see a particular thing I'm interested in it will draw my attention more than the airshow.

On a side note, I just read on the website the news about Friday night at Theater in the woods. Might be fun to go to, but there is some inaccuracy in the post.

"The team has always used combat-capable fighters for its performances."

That quote from the news is wrong. From 1974 to 1983 they flew the T-38 Talon which is a trainer, not a combat capable fighter. It was a trainer..If you read the news it sounds like they switched from the F-4 to the F-16.

Dave in Missouri

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I'm not sure that quote is inaccurate. What does it take to convert a T-38 to a F-5? Wouldn't that mean it's combat capable? Agreed, that the US didn't use the F-5, but many other countries did.

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Originally Posted by rleffler

I'm not sure that quote is inaccurate. What does it take to convert a T-38 to a F-5? Wouldn't that mean it's combat capable? Agreed, that the US didn't use the F-5, but many other countries did.

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While the T-38 and the F-5 were developed at the same time and I believe the same basic airframe, the F-5 is bigger. 1 foot longer, 16 sq ft more wing area and about 1 foot taller. While the airplanes look similar and do share a lot of the same components, they are totally different machines. I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible to convert a T-38 into an F-5.

I personally think the T-38 and the F-5 are two of the nicest looking airplanes ever built. Sleek, fast and maneuverable. When the T-Birds flew them I think they put on better shows. I have seen them perform with the F-100 (Okay I'm showing my age), the F-4, the T-38 and the F-16. I think the T-38 years were their best.

Here is my two cents worth, my oppinion on the subject and what I think about the Thunderbird performance. Change is inevitable, sometimes good and sometimes not-so-good. One thing that I have learned over the years about events is "that they either get bigger or they get smaller, but never stay the same". I have many good organizations with their "purist" members with the attitude that if it was good enough for me then it should be good enough for everyone else. Unfortunately as those "purist" members get old and "go west", there isn't anyone groomed to replace them because the fundamental ideas are no longer as popular as they one were. We must all be vigilant to declining membership. I have attended EAA Oshkosh since 1974. I have seen changes, oh yes, many changes. The crowd line has been moved. The Thunderbirds-type performance is not new. I have seen the Canadian Jet team, the French Jet team and the Italian Jet team perform in Oshkosh. The organization was set up with different divisions to accomodate different people and their particular likes. Perhaps something for everyone, so to speak. The best way to keep someone in attendance is to accomodate the family. Make it a family outing/vacation/holiday. Hence the theater in the woods, the outdoor movie theater, teen dances and the concerts. We all don't like the same things, EAA Oshkosh is about aviation and the people who have similar interests. I fly, I don't own an airplane, I don't ever plan to build one, but I certainly respect those people who do. Paul Poberezny flew many different types of aircraft and was proud of them all. One of his proudest moments was when the Astronauts were at Oskosh to speak. How do I know this, he made a point of being accessable to the membership and said so. Personally, I like seeing Warbirds, WW II, Korean War, VietNam War and modern Military aircraft just as much as seeing a breezy, a Cessna 140, a R-22 or the Goodyear blimp. If moving your chair for the Thunderbirds aerobatic demonstration box is the problem, park farther back earlier in the day. If they are to noisey, wear earplugs, if you are able to plan a 5-10 hour flight to Oshkosh, I'm sure you can plan to be away from your tied down aircraft for a few hours on a couple of days. You are "special", in aviation, we are all special. It is time that we act as mentors and not dictators to the public. We need the support! The show, the event, the convention, the gathering starts in four days. Enjoy it! I will with ALL that it has to offer for everyone there. I'm pumped up and ready, again!

Just adding a couple of thoughts:
1) BA and T-Birds have not been consistent with their practice times at all at Sun-N-Fun. Wonder how that will work at Oshkosh with resi and business closings as well as show lines?
2) I understand the revenue need but why not run them at another time other than Airventure to attract the locals. They DO draw good crowds at conventional airshows.
3) If you want to run them at Airventure, how about the weekend BEFORE the convention.

My first time to Air Venture was in 2005. Then we saw the Blue Angels. The performance box was no different. Clearly the FAA has learned much since some airshow disasters. I think the comments about a Convention vs the BIG show are useful. Raising money (Mostly from EAA members at this show needs to be reviewed). I know there are many chapter leadership meetings and strategy planning that happens this week that I am not involved in.

For me, I want to see EAA HQ develop better Advocacy strategies. I think we need to work to get us all working at all levels of government to make Small Aircraft GA much more free of oversight and regulation and drive lower costs. EAA can set the standard as Certified Aircraft and AOPA are harder and already have the FAA in on their backs.

As members, we need to voice our desires. Elect members as Directors that have our views and hold them accountable. Sounds like voters and the Government.

This yearly event is a magic thing - it is a lot of different things to a lot of different people with widely different reasons for being there. The airshow is just a part of that. Basically, the homebuilt, amateur build industry is good for America. In building my RV7 I have spent more money on purely American made parts and services that another facet of my life, including my home. It is the core of what EAA is all about, even if Kitplanes has more articles actual building and amateur built planes each month. As a newbie, it was looking at kit offerings, forums on tech stuff, then it was selecting the kit, then it was talking and looking at what features and components would be on the plane, then it was looking at finished planes to see how they did things, and now it is getting to know the builders personally and saying hello to the suppliers who have helped me so much. Hopefully next year, it will be experiencing the joy of arriving in the airplane I built and hoisting beverages with other new fellow owners. This is a long journey ( 12 years now) and the event must cater to each segment as they are all there at one time each year. If the T-Birds will allow some other Dad to bring his son along while his journey progresses - then Bravo - it is meeting that segments' goal. I am too old to drool over an F16 seat, and will be very happy to finish my bird and pull 4g's at a lot slower speed. That does not mean it is not a good thing for Airventure. The Board must realize the reality of this journey and not miss a single group as they progress over the years. Disintegration of a link in that chain will damage the event, including T Birds. Personally, I am more excited with a Blue Angles show right down on the deck, or the AeroDynamic RV team with their art in motion, but that is just me personally.

I was just packing up when the TB made their arrival. They did as pretty good job of beating up the field but then I'm an old air force guy from F102 days although not a pilot at that time.

Maybe I am missing something, but looking at the Primary web cams, I can not find the Thunderbirds!!! Where are they parked?

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Originally Posted by orvie6

Maybe I am missing something, but looking at the Primary web cams, I can not find the Thunderbirds!!! Where are they parked?

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They're parked in front of the Wittman airport terminal building, NNE of warbirds, on the far side of Rwy 9/27.

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Originally Posted by Hal Bryan

They're parked in front of the Wittman airport terminal building, NNE of warbirds, on the far side of Rwy 9/27.

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Oh, and by the way?? It is currently 5:07pm and at this precise moment, the Airshow cam is pointing directly at the Thunderbirds. :)

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.

As to the question about hosting theT-Birds at Oshkosh – To me it was a great thing to have done. I was at the showon Thursday when the T-Birds arrived, and just about everyone stopped what theywere doing to look up. You could feel the excitement in the crowd. The crowdswatching all their performances were huge, they are a big draw for everyone, fromhard-core EAA members to the general public. Having the T-Birds at Oshkosh wasa big win, and if that meant that you needed to accommodate their visit bymoving the burn line, then so be it. It was a great show and I had a greattime.

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Originally Posted by lkorona

As to the question about hosting theT-Birds at Oshkosh – To me it was a great thing to have done. I was at the showon Thursday when the T-Birds arrived, and just about everyone stopped what theywere doing to look up. You could feel the excitement in the crowd. The crowdswatching all their performances were huge, they are a big draw for everyone, fromhard-core EAA members to the general public. Having the T-Birds at Oshkosh wasa big win, and if that meant that you needed to accommodate their visit bymoving the burn line, then so be it. It was a great show and I had a greattime.

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I could have done without it. It ended up being a pretty big disruption for the local hangar tenants, and I did not see much of a positive reaction from anyone that was around. Granted I was in the homebuilt area and have been spoiled with better f-16 and f-22 demo flights. Honestly I hope this is the one and only time they show up. To each their own.

I personally had no desire to see the T-Birds (or the Blues, for that matter), but from my observations, I think Net/Net that having the Thunderbirds was positive. It appeared to me that the youngsters were greatly impressed.

IM<HO, I think the best of all worlds would be for them to bed down other than at OSH and do an offsite show like the Chicago lakefront show.

Also, a lot of us old timers don't care for jet noise. I would suggest that EAA stagger the participation of the jets like the T-birds and Blue Angels so there are "quiet" years and "jet" years.

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Originally Posted by PaulDow

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.

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Then there was the elderly couple driving a Chrysler THROUGH the crowd on Boeing plaza during the show on Friday. No ground guide or escort...and driving over my son's backpack while we were pulling my son (10 years old) out of the way before he got hit, too.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemxpc

Then there was the elderly couple driving a Chrysler THROUGH the crowd on Boeing plaza during the show on Friday. No ground guide or escort...and driving over my son's backpack while we were pulling my son (10 years old) out of the way before he got hit, too.

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Was that Friday night as well? I saw that right in front of us Saturday night during the night airshow just a few yards north of the plaza. And it was an old car, dark green I think. I wondered what the hell that was all about?

Hope your son was OK.

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Originally Posted by PaulDow

I'd like to ask that when the crowd is compressed, that the No Carts zone along on Wittman between Waukau and Vern be very strictly enforced. It's packed in there, and it's difficult to move aside for someone driving through that area. There are fewer through there, but so e seem to be let through.

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I think the trams should be put in that category as well, at least during the air show. Sitting by the Gee Bee on both Friday and Saturday, especially Saturday, I was amazed at how many near-misses there were between the trams and inattentive spectators. I realize that where the Gee Bee was parked is outside of those areas, but it was still a dangerous area there too.

I am a hangar tenant at kosh and I had no issues. I enjoyed them breaking full afterburner over the hangar. I had a bunch of family and friends out to the hangar to see them as well. They loved it. Saturday, a lot of them paid for a wristband just to see the t-birds at show center. The best was when the pilots threw us their trademark hand signals as they taxied past us heading back to the terminal! Granted, I don't want them to be an every year thing, but once every few years is neat.

I do not however, know why they had to expand the box so far east. Because they were breaking to the north and west just as much, especially the solo guys who were moving quick and low over pretty much the whole south side of the city.

Regarding the carts, my wife and I both commented that this year they seem to be a lot more carts and cars driving around through show center than previous years. Not to mention some of those guys driving the golf carts were driving like total idiots...

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Originally Posted by rbarkerjr

I think the trams should be put in that category as well, at least during the air show.

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Respectfully disagree, Ron. Some of us older guys have limited interest in the airshows, and use the trams to get around to see other things while the airshow is in progress. Inattentive spectators can't be fixed but every tram driver I've ridden behind dealt with them well.

Easing back to the more specific T-Bird discussion....any numbers in yet on attendance at the weekend airshows? Just watched the airshow video repeating on the Videographer's Webcam, and attendance didn't look all that heavy. I assume it was the Sunday airshow as the OWW started up and taxied.

There is no doubt they are marvelous and well-trained aviators. In my opinion they are using the wrong equipment. The F-16 is great for what it's designed for, which is not an airshow. If they spent more than a third of their time within a mile of the spectators I'd be surprised. I personally find the Warthog demos I've seen more close-in and faster-paced. Imagine these guys with six of those!!

I was told by someone who should know that within a half hour following the Breezy accident Thursday morning, there were over 100 airplanes backed up waiting to leave. We were camping near the Hilton on the North side of 9/27, and after we were told that we watched another 30 or so campers startup to leave before we did the same. No idea if it's normal for that many folks to head out during that time period...just making an observation.

Jim
EAA #64315

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Originally Posted by Fastcapy

I do not however, know why they had to expand the box so far east. Because they were breaking to the north and west just as much, especially the solo guys who were moving quick and low over pretty much the whole south side of the city.

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On our side of the field we got kicked out of the hangars and moved under a tent (which was directly in the t-birds flight path). Made no sense at all. The other gripe is the noise. Airventure has forums and workshops scheduled at a time you cant hear yourself think.

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Originally Posted by Jim Rosenow

In my opinion they are using the wrong equipment. The F-16 is great for what it's designed for, which is not an airshow. If they spent more than a third of their time within a mile of the spectators I'd be surprised. I personally find the Warthog demos I've seen more close-in and faster-paced. Imagine these guys with six of those!!

I was told by someone who should know that within a half hour following the Breezy accident Thursday morning, there were over 100 airplanes backed up waiting to leave. We were camping near the Hilton on the North side of 9/27, and after we were told that we watched another 30 or so campers startup to leave before we did the same. No idea if it's normal for that many folks to head out during that time period...just making an observation.

Jim
EAA #64315

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The T-Birds are more than just PR/Recruiting. They are also part of sales. The F-16s they use are fully combat capable aircraft (unlike the Blues F/A-18s). They also market the F-16 as an export commodity, trying to get other countries to think that all they need is the right material to get the same quality pilots. A-10s right now, are absolutely taboo. DoD won't even accept requests for static displays. After all, the public might actually talk to the crew and get the impression that the Warthog is a multi-role platform with lots of life and utility left in it.

My AirVenture experience is only the last five years, but in that time, I have noticed that people start to leave on Thursday. Actually Wednesday, but it is noticeable on Thursday. On the other hand, there are others who don't arrive until Wednesday.

With regard to the other response asking about my son. He was fine. Kind of oblivious as the car was coming up from behind him and he never saw it until after we pulled him away. Even the backpack survived as he only had papers and such in it from KidVenture.

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Originally Posted by Jim Rosenow

Some of us older guys have limited interest in the airshows, and use the trams to get around to see other things while the airshow is in progress. Inattentive spectators can't be fixed but every tram driver I've ridden behind dealt with them well.

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Understandable, Jim. I have no doubt that the tram drivers do a great job and that the tram service is a valuable one. My only point is that if the tram driver were to get distracted, for any reason, it would be very easy for one of the inattentive spectators to get seriously injured. I think that during the airshow times, maybe there could be an alternate tram route that doesn't drive right down the crowded areas on Whitman. Maybe run them on Knapp during those times... Anyway just my two cents worth. Either way, AirVenture was an absolute blast this year and I'm already counting the days until next year.

Well, we saw what happened.. from comments from those that got kicked out of south parking area and those that left Friday because they were ticked-off about the prospect of being kicked out, not good. Pelton was all about the gate receipts and how full the parking lot was. The EAA members who got kicked out should be compensated. The performance took an hour, but they were probably only in front of the crowd 5 minutes. BFD.

I thought there were more aircraft than ever early in the week and an awful lot of departures on Thursday and Friday. Never seen the homebuilt area so quiet as when we walked thru there Friday late morning. I spoke to a lot of people with aircraft during the week and not one was positive about the thunderbirds coming. What really surprised me though was that the Thunderbirds arrived Thursday, taking up another 45 min of airshow time, when something better could have been flying. We saw them as we walked out to go to the parking lot and drive to the seaplane base, they seemed to be flying all over the exhibition area, over the crowds, over the businesses on the east side. So how come that was allowed, but on Friday onwards so many areas had to be evacuated, crowd lines moved back etc. Seems very double standards??!! Or doesn't it matter if they crash on the exhibit buildings when its not an official show? Oh well at least we weren't disrupted on Thursday and could still go to the south 40!
I left before their show on Friday, but was told it was very long and not much time with the aircraft actually infront of the crowd, just as hatz672 commented

Thursday when they came in it was explained that they were establishing their visual ground reference points. The reason for not having to move the crowd line then was they were not doing "aerobatic maneuvers" at that time. I saw the show on both Friday and Sat, and there were not any long lulls between maneuvers than any of the other formation acts I saw those days. Between the 4 ship diamond formation and the 2 solos, they had something in front of show center most of the time, with maybe a 30 second pause between a pass of either the 4 ship group or the solos. Only time it was a bit longer was when they all formed up for the 6 ship formations.

Just saw the numbers. Mon-Fri attendance was up 5%. Sat and Sun the attendance was up 20%. As I have said before. I have lived within 10 miles of Oshkosh my entire life, and it has been many, many years since I have heard the people of the area so excited about AirVenture. Including at least 20 people I personally know would told me they bought tickets for Sat. These people have never been out there or hadn't been out there in 15+ Years.

In a dwindling hobby like ours, getting people out on the grounds to learn more about general aviation is a huge plus in my book.

I'm a survivor of the multiple Sunday apocalyptic deluges. I waited out the first one on the IAC porch, the second in the EAA Welcome Center, and the third in the Aviator's Bookshelf tent, where I bought nine more books and picked up the two display cases I bought when I heard that this was their last year (wah!). I'd be interested to know (although I know it's impossible) how many locals stayed home Sunday because of the weather...which makes the "gate up 20% on Sunday" figure even more impressive. I also wonder how many planes left Sunday morning to beat the weather, who might have waited until after the airshow had the forecast been better.

At least at T-birds show center (which was way down in Vintage), All vehicles were move to the other wise useless and pointless perimeter road. Nothing on Wittman from the Showplane registration booth down to Ultralights.

Frankly, the crowd (at least form the Vintage red barn down, worked well during Saturday's airshow. People held back to the white line just fine. It was busy, but manageable.

One thing I noted is a higher prevelence of CHILDREN in the crowd for the airshow than I've seen in the past for just the WARBIRD EXTRAVAGANZA teamed with Sean D Tucker.

I'm going to call it a success.

The dozen or so kids taking their induction oath into the AF prior to Saturday's show was a bonus.

I've been going to Oshkosh (and I'll probably never call it Airventure) since 1978 - haven't missed a year. Over that time, it has changed a lot, and it's not the Thunderbirds fault - and the Thunderbirds' appearance isn't a symptom of the underlying reason for the changes.

I didn't look back to see what exact years they were there, but the Blue Angels have been there at least twice, the Canadian Snowbirds at least twice (excellent shows, by the way), and even the Italian Freece Tricolori team was there one year. So, military jet teams are nothing new in the airshow at Oshkosh. The thing I could never figure out was why the Thunderbirds never showed up - seemed like they preferred to do smaller shows in places like Davenport IA. (The Army Golden Knights parachute team has even been at Oshkosh a time or two.)

I liked Oshkosh the way it was in the early '80s - back when it was more like what the OP was wishing for. It was always exciting to see the new designs (like Chris Heintz' CH601 - the real one week wonder, not from a CNC pre-punched kit, and they actually flew it before the end of the show), alternative engines, pipe dreams, and a fly market that took hours to go through, with at least three waterless cooker vendors and the original Billy Bob teeth.

To paraphrase the Statler Brothers, "whatever happened to Oshkosh has happened to the best of me." The earliest symptom was the introduction of the Christen Eagle kit in 1977. Frank Christensen was the first person to realize just how much money homebuilt aviation could attract. Old timers were amazed that anybody would pay that kind of money for airplane parts. Burt Rutan, aeronautical genius that he is, failed to appreciate (or refused to) that the Eagle was just the tip of the iceberg and sold plans/materials for the Ezs instead of pre-molded parts. Stoddard-Hamilton and Dick VanGrunsven did not, and the rest is history. Turns out that for every EAA member who wanted to scratch-build a Pietenpol or T-18, there were 15 or 20 who would rather spend cash than time. Engines are even more that way - I'd guess that a small fraction of the Sonexes are VW (or Corvair) powered. People just don't seem to even flinch at paying $20k for an engine. And don't even get me started on glass cockpits (and I retired from a major supplier of glass cockpits to the airlines and corporate jets.)

I think EAA leadership over the years has responded to the membership - it's just that I, (and a lot of other people) aren't the ones they have responded to. If they had ignored the demographic trends and tried to remain solely focused on old-time homebuilding, EAA very well might have ceased to exist. For a comparison, look at the Antique Aircraft Association, which started in 1953. They are an example of staying very focused on their niche of aviation and not changing with the times.

Paul Poberezny even wished for the old days, and started an organization maybe 15 years ago to try to cater to others that thought EAA had strayed from it's roots (Sport Aviation Association, I think? - but before Light Sport was a thing). It didn't last long.

Bottom line - nothing's perfect, but EAA and Oshkosh are the best we've got. Enjoy the parts you like, go hang out in the shade with others who think like you do when the Thunderbirds (or whatever) are on, and think about what you'd be doing if there was no "Airventure".

(And write Jack Pelton thanking him for working for us when he certainly didn't need to, and also for the attempts EAA is making to support the low end of homebuilding. Remember the $10K aircraft displays last year or the year before, and the attempts to promote scratch building this year? They really are trying.)

Warren

I agree with a good deal of what you say, but have attended every year since 1973, missing 2005, 2006, and 2007 due to my father's health. The Snowbirds and Italians are vivid memories. The Blues made a couple passes I guess in 2006, but neither U.S. Precision team ever did a performance there, which is what made this year a big deal. I never thought they would work out the box space to get the high performance jets in there, they proved me wrong. I enjoyed the show, but have to admit I found the Snowbirds and Frecce Tricolori shows more enjoyable. The lower performance jets allow for some better formation displays it seems.

The recent Blue Angel appearance was limited to Blue 7 making a few passes. Amusingly, I was on the warbird approach to 36 when Blue 7 did an overhead break in front of me...quite neat to watch.

yes apart from single jets, Blue Angles have never been at least since 1984 when I started coming. I missed 86 with the Frecce Tricolori, not sure when the snowbirds were, either 90 which I also missed or before 84.
Well interesting to see that the numbers are up, I would have expected that anyway after such a good year last year and the word getting out that EAA was going away from the big chalets, giant loudspeakers and more back to grassroots. I think that is why there were so many aircraft there early in the week, with more vintage and homebuilts than ever. It would seem that the Thunderbirds caused an increase in the weekend crowd and I guess part of the reason would be that any vaguely interested local would now chose to come at the weekend, when perhaps previously they may have chosen a weekday. Of course a 20% increase on Sunday isn't much there was always hardly anyone there!
I wonder how they count the numbers as there certainly weren't people counting on every gate every day. If its from sales do they assume those with a weekly pass stay all week. OF course many don't and left on Thursday and Friday.
To be honest I wouldn't care if they had the Thunderbirds or another team on the final weekend if it could be done without restrictions on other days, perhaps all the novelty acts and some of the aerobatics could also be moved to a bigger airshow on the final weekend, leaving the weekdays for a shorter airshow with more fly-bys of interesting EAA types like Vintage, ultralights, homebuilts, Seaplanes and warbirds flown by ordinary members not airshow professionals that we have all seen a hundred times.

There were much more people on Sundays than in the past. I was about to call it a bust after the storms came in at the beginning of the airshow, but people must have just taken cover and waited it out as by the time the planes started flying again the crowds were making their way to the flight line.
Not as busy as Saturday though.

Having replied earlier and stating I was against the pull back of the flight line, I am here to give you our experience. We moved out of our camp site at 1:28pm Friday. No problem, we had earlier moved our pop up shade and several coolers to the new line. Everything went fine for about 15 mins. Then a wall cloud came through, we, due to losing more than one to wind over the years, took our shade down. Shortly after that it began to rain on us off and on for the next 2 hours or more, the temps dropped 10 degrees, and there we sat, cold, wet, and bored! So, I'm sorry but no we’re not happy campers. Some of us were eating when the rain came in and could not go to our tent to finish. Also, is it just us or did Friday's airshow suck? A lot of downtime and then watching RC guys for 20 mins. on top of it! Anyway most of us, 4 planes and about 9 people, left Fri. morning not wanting a repeat of Thurs.

L

Larry,

You know the weather you were justifiably complaining about? It affected the air show too. Lots of participants elected not to fly in thunderstorms and hail. The Air Boss made the same decision for others. So, yes, it sucked -- or soaked.

Chris Mayer
N424AF

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Originally Posted by scuba72

While the T-38 and the F-5 were developed at the same time and I believe the same basic airframe, the F-5 is bigger. 1 foot longer, 16 sq ft more wing area and about 1 foot taller. While the airplanes look similar and do share a lot of the same components, they are totally different machines. I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible to convert a T-38 into an F-5.

I personally think the T-38 and the F-5 are two of the nicest looking airplanes ever built. Sleek, fast and maneuverable. When the T-Birds flew them I think they put on better shows. I have seen them perform with the F-100 (Okay I'm showing my age), the F-4, the T-38 and the F-16. I think the T-38 years were their best.

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The Navy aggressor squadron at NAS Key West has to buy surplus F-5's from foreign nations.