To each their own. Personally, I think if one is going to offer controversial statements on a forum, one should post one's real name.Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
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To each their own. Personally, I think if one is going to offer controversial statements on a forum, one should post one's real name.Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
On another note, since you volunteer in aircraft parking, live in the local area, and as you have stated repeatedly being somewhat dissatisfied with the direction of the EAA, do you have any knowledge of or could you shed some light on the rumor that some rogue members are planning a aircraft parking protest / slow down during Oshkosh. If so what is the exact point of that and why Jeff?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Point
I would certainly hope that is nothing but a rumor...as I would expect such an action would create a backup while Many planes are trying to land at the same airport in a short amount of time... dangerous situation.
From the text comments attributed to Rick Beebe:
The full EAA Board of Directors continues to be listed, along with biographical information for most, at http://members.eaa.org/home/eaa_board.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
That is a legitimate question, and one that I have been asked more than once in the last week or so, and I think it's an important one (even if you phrased it in a baiting way) so I'll tell you what I know. To my knowledge (and frankly I would have heard) there is absolutely no plans by the parking volunteers to conduct any sort of slowdown, work stoppage, strike or whatever you want to call it. My area is Homebuilts, I cannot speak for N40, Warbirds or Antique/ Classic, however I have friends in these areas and if something was afoot, I think I would have heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
I'll also state this publicly- if there were such an action planned, I would be very much against it and would do what I could to prevent it. Yes, there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current leadership and the direction they are taking us. However there are right ways and wrong ways to express this dissatisfaction, and damaging the convention and hurting individual members through a work stoppage is not the right way.
Sorry, not the best qualifications for determining BOD selection. Anyone with $900.00+ can become a lifetime member and 20 years membership is arbitrary and not at all significant for performing accountabilities of a BOD.Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
BOD's are carefully selected and vetted by any current organization CEO( NFP, publicly traded or private) to support the vision, agenda and direction of that CEO. Given the current structure of EAA and its voting procedures and qualifications, what is the opportunity to be a dissenting voice? The voting structure/covenants within EAA's constitution needs to be ammended first and foremost before membership can affect desired change with respect to BOD selection. Good Luck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floatsflyer
It is significant! Think about it. What I'm talking about is vested interest. The thing is with that $900.00, twenty years membership, points for volunteering or a combination there of, you have a vested interest in the direction of the organization. In essence it taps the core vales of the EAA. As it is now, a non flying resident of Oshkosh that buys a membership to attend the airshow and has very little interest in the EAA has the same voting rights as you. There are many more of them then us. I believe it would be much easier to administer and make organizational changes with a dedicated core of EAA members.
I disagree with that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8505
The purpose started out as simply an idea to elect people to the board that were thought to better represent the homebuilder community. Nothing wrong with that, just some members exercising their rights in a membership organization. The initial idea was to (as a group) figure out who they wanted to vote for.
Then someone wondered exactly what the mechanism would be for a group of like-minded people to cast a group of votes. The obvious answer seemed to be via proxy. After all, that's how the current EAA leadership gets to cast votes for people who are unable to attend the annual meeting.
Since there were rumors that the last time this had been tried all the proxies were rejected by EAA because they did not conform to the proper standard, someone thought the group should ask EAA for a blank "blessed" proxy form so that there was some assurance that the collected proxies would be counted. That led to an entire month of time passing, with no one from EAA seemingly able to approve or locate a simple form. First, the EAA lawyer was required, then the EAA Executive Committee was required, and in the end, that still did not produce a form from EAA that was "pre-accepted." Finally, in frustration, the members who were interested in casting votes just copied the existing proxy that assign the voting rights to the EAA leadership and changed the appropriate fields. This got some tacit approval from EAA, but there was still no definitive statement that these would be accepted as legal proxies.
At this point, the "movement" adjusted it goals slightly. In addition to trying to cast a group vote for those they thought would best represent the group, and new goal was to see if the proxy process is broken, or if a group of like-minded individuals can exercise their rights in voting for who they want to represent them. That part remains to be seen.
As part of the process of trying to squeeze an approved proxy form from EAA, it was discovered that the EAA by-laws, minutes to the Board meetings, minutes to the Executive committee meetings, and several other key documents were impossible to find. These documents were thought to be very important for members of the EAA to be able to review, since that would give them some insight into how the EAA is run, and also which board members were looking out for any particular group's interests. With this information, a member can see if a board member voted for or against the things a particular group of members cared about. So the goals were adjusted a little bit more to try and get EAA to be more transparent in it's governance. After all, as a voting member, you want to make sure the people you are voting for have your best interest in mind, right? In this internet age, making these documents available to members should be no harder than creating a "governance" section on the EAA website that members can access anytime they are interested.
All this controversy came about because a group of members wanted to exercise their rights in a membership organization. They were trying to work within the organization to make changes, not against it. That turned out to be an extremely difficult task that revealed the lack of transparency in the way things are currently run. Obviously, changes like this are not made overnight, so a multi-step process was outlined:
Step 1. Collect proxies and see if they can be used by a group to cast votes for "preferred" candidates.
Step 2. If that was successful, see how board members can be nominated that are preferential to the group for next year. If not successful, find out why.
Step 3. Work with the EAA to make the governance more transparent to the members. Realize this may not happen until said group has enough members on the board to force a change.
This initial group happened to be a group of homebuilders, but the same thing could be done by a group of warbirds, antiques, aerobatics, or others. Over time, the board would begin to more represent the groups that were organized and voting in a block. This is a way to make sure the EAA is going in the direction the membership prefers.
So, the initial push was to get proxies, because that is what can be done now, and before Oshkosh this year. The other stuff will take longer and require more work over a span of several years.
The main goal was well-defined: More transparency in EAA governance. Everything else were just ways to get there.
Hi Everyone,
I am the individual who volunteered to represent the group of VAF members initially, as well as anyone else who would like to participate in the election this year. This thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine, so I apologize for not joining in earlier.
FloridaJohn did a really nice job of providing the complete history up to this point. He also identified the turning point that riled up the VAF members and that is simply the ability to participate in an election.
There are a number of policy issues that are debatable among EAA members. Some of those are even embedded in this thread such as the 20 year requirement. The thing about policy is that it can be debated until the sun goes down and no one will ever win the discussion. There are reasonable merits on both sides of any policy debate and those are better left in the hands of the Board of Directors. The reality is that we, as EAA members, simply can't write (or re-write) policy in a way that is convenient to each of us.
However, as members of the organization, we all (well almost all - you have to be 18 years old) have the right to participate in the election of the Board of Directors. So it's our responsibility as members, both satisfied and dissatisfied, to elect board members that we believe will best serve our needs as members of the organization. Any policy decision can be debated publicly but it can (and should) only be made by the BOD members that we elect to represent us.
Today, EAA members have 3 choices to participate in the election:1) They can simply not participate; or
2) They can assign their vote to the leadership team of EAA; or
3) They can show up in person and vote for the specific candidates they believe best represent their interests.
The fourth option is missing and that is simply allowing all EAA members (who can't attend in person) an opportunity to cast their own voting ballots electronically.
I will attempt to put it in the simplest terms....... If an EAA member's vote is valuable enough to assign to the leadership team, or if a member's vote is valuable enough to be counted when they attend the meeting in person, then ALL member's votes are of equal value and should be accounted for at the time of election.
I should stop right here and not put blame on Mr. Hightower for this either. This hole in the voting membership is something that pre-dates his arrival at the helm of EAA. He should, however, be made aware of the inequity of votes that does currently exist. No EAA member's vote should count more than any other member's vote, and today there is discrimination between members who can attend in person and those who can not.
To ease the minds of many of you, we aren't going to have enough proxy signatures to impact this election in any way, shape, or form. However we will have enough signatures to express concern about these inequities and shine a spotlight on a key issue that all EAA members should be concerned with.
With regards to the proxy forms, you should know that this isn't a great position to be put in. However I know it's the right thing to do and I promised my peer EAA members that I would represent them at the annual meeting. I'm a man of my word and will represent them in a reasonable and professional manner. I am hopeful that others who choose to attend the meeting will do so in a respectful manner too.
On a side note, none of you should let this collection of proxy forms overshadow your time at AirVenture. AirVenture is our event. It is our opportunity to meet other members, to make new friends, to learn about the latest developments in aviation. As birds of a feather, it is our opportunity to flock together and we are fortunate to have such a terrific place to do it. The business meeting on Saturday isn't the highlight of the show and it shouldn't be something everyone is focusing their eyes on. So go, have fun, relax, and be a kid for a week. I'm planning on enjoying myself catching up with old friends, making new ones, and hanging out with airplanes.
Hopefully that explains what the proxy collection effort is about and how we're campaigning to bring all EAA members the freedom to participate in a truly democratic election.
Thanks,
Phil
My history with EAA goes back about 40 years.
I was told that the proxy came into use after Paul nearly lost an election. So that is the legacy left by Paul.
Mr. Hightower is not to be blamed for the past, but the future is another matter.
A total removal of this proxy system is required (replaced with direct member vote only) to restore my faith in EAA. If that is possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Berson
Removal, at least voluntarily on the part of the most senior management, will never, ever occur. The proxy voting system was initiated to insure that absolute power and control remained in the hands of the founding family, a CEO now chosen by that family and a BOD selected by all of the foregoing. Quite the stacked deck and not to be penetrated. It's similiar to the "Poison Pill" provisions adopted by publicly traded companies to prevent hostile takeovers.
As I said just previously, the changes must come in the form of ammendments to the voting covenants and procedures as currently contained in the EAA constitution. Since this is 100% unlikely to be accomplished by those heading up current initiatives for change then other methods must be considered. One such method is the launch of a Class Action law suit to challenge and test the validity of the voting covenents with respect to their legality and reasonableness for NFP's. The hiring of a lawyer with expertise in NFP's and administrative and constitutional law who would be willing to at least look at the issues Pro Bono to make an evaluation with respect to the merits of a Class Action might be warranted.
Jeeze. All this talk about laywers, boards of directors, covenants, class action lawsuits, etc. It is getting out of hand. If you are that dissatisfied with the way things are moving at EAA you need to remember that nobody is forcing you to be a member. Vote with your wallet and just don't renew your membership. Start another organization that caters to what you enjoy. It will be far easier and cheaper than all that was proposed here. Yes it won't happen over night but neither did EAA.
Keith
I guess one could argue that the "leave if you don't like it" comments are not very productive either.Quote:
Originally Posted by kmacht
Nothing wrong with passionate members speaking what's on their mind, too bad, so sad if you don't agree with what they have to say.
Hi Keith,Quote:
Originally Posted by kmacht
I don't believe you have a grasp of the BOD voting issue being discussed here. Perhaps you don't understand the implications or you just don't care. Either way, please allow me the opportunity to put it in a comparable context that might provide a better understanding.
There's a general election this November, perhaps you've heard. How would you feel if the President sent you a Proxy instead of allowing you to vote your free will for the candidate of your choice? He says by signing this Proxy over to me, you are authorizing me to select your Congressman who will represent you.
Your attitude of "love it or leave it" is reminiscent of the early years of the Vietnam war. Many who advocated this, sharply divided the country but had a quick change of heart and mind when their son or their neighbours son or there sisters son came home in a box. You are entitled to your opinion and your right to disagree but in doing so, please don't denegrate those that see an inequity or unfairness or possible illegality that undermines basic democratic principles and prohibits individuals from meaningfull participation in their own membership driven organization.
If it wasn't for those who were "dissatified with the way things are", you'd be singing God Save the Queen as the national anthem at the Super Bowl
I am very aware of the goings on with the BOD, the covenants, etc. I have followed this both here and over on the VAF before it got pulled. I do not like the way EAA is heading and have expressed that in a number of postings. I wasn't planning on renewing this year but will ultimatly have to in order to save money on airventure admission next week. I don't have any problem with members working within the system to try and get a board member elected or to at least send a message regarding their displeasure. I just think it starts crossing the line and getting out of hand when people are suggesting laywers and a class action lawsuit or now comparing it to the vietnam war.
Keith
I agree that simply letting your membership expire is a viable option and I've been contacted by many members who are seriously considering letting their membership lapse. I've also exchanged messages with former EAA members who re-joined so they can simply participate in raising the members awareness about an inequity of votes issue.
I can offer my perspective on the issue and will communicate what I've communicated to those considering the lapse of membership route.
In order to understand my perspective, we all have to agree that the EAA is far to valuable to the aviation community to destroy or let waste away. There is a tremendous amount of value within EAA in the softer areas such as legacy and brand recognition, but also value in the more defined areas such outreach to Young Eagles, work in Washington, and cooperative partnerships that mutually benefit GA. Regardless of how anyone feels about the overall effectiveness of EAA in these areas, we all have to agree that the EAA is valuable and it is worth fighting for.
With that said, my message to those considering the lapse of membership route is to please keep renewing their membership. I can understand not wanting to pay for something that you don't feel you are receiving equal value for, but without members the EAA would struggle to survive and we would all be destroying a great organization. Members are needed to keep the chapter communities healthy, they are needed to volunteer as staff members at AirVenture, they are needed to fly Young Eagles so our neighbors kids can have an opportunity to become pilots someday too, they are also needed to be the barometer of EAA leadership so that at the highest levels the organization can be managed in way that reflects the needs of the general membership body.
So whether you agree or disagree with this specific effort, I would encourage all of you to maintain your memberships. And if you feel like there is a specific area where the EAA can improve, then be the barometer for the leaders and get involved in rallying other members to bring it to their attention. That's what we are doing here and without members it wouldn't be possible.
On the topic of lawyers and class action lawsuits, I don't even want to go down that road. I'm a believer that litigation has become the crutch of our society and that common sense is a far more reasonable approach. In this case, there is clearly an inequity of votes issue and we don't need a lawyer to demonstrate it exist. As members, we can spotlight it and then ask the EAA to do something about it. It's really a common sense issue and I have no intention of leading a class action lawsuit against the EAA for a common sense issue.
Thanks,
Phil
I just renewed my EAA membership this week. And like the last 10 yrs, I did not sign the proxy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
None intended. I like Mike a great deal and always enjoyed listening to what he had to say at the meetings. Mike did not resign over that issue, he decided to retire when his term was up a year later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junius
Things like that are easy to do on the internet and especially on message boards. It's even easier to let it happen when you're dealing with a topic such as this one fueled with some level of emotion and passion. When you're simply trying to make a basic point its easy to add some emotion when it's really unnecessary or counter productive.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordryck
God knows I have said some pretty stupid things before or have come off the wrong way too. I've fallen victim to letting emotions do the typing in the past. It's happened a couple of times related to this campaign and of course once or twice earlier in my lifetime. :)
It's something that's hard to keep under control, but I'm forcing myself to get better at it.
Phil
A copy of the proxy/EAA governance thread that was deleted from Vansairforce.net (mentioned earlier in this discussion) is now located in the "files" section of the Facebook "Members4Members" group. http://www.facebook.com/groups/Members4Members (Unfortunately, Facebook membership is required to reach Facebook group contents.)
A Facebook page (no membership required) with links to various discussions and the text of Dick Koehler's article is here: http://www.facebook.com/Members4Members
I wish we could do something to get the organization back on track. I was thinking about emailing all the EAA Chapter Presidents and ask them to bring this topic up at their meetings to get an idea of what everyone else thinks. I am working twelve hour shifts and trying to make progress on my plane, so I don't have much free time to devote to the issue.
Phil:Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
Just getting caught up with all the action that has taken place. I was following your thread on the "other" forum and did provide you with a Proxy. Will be following along here.
As a Lifetime member, not renewing is not an option but agree with your ideas of getting more transparency and member involvement so must work with you and EAA to make it happen. I refuse to join Facebook but am willing to help with Google+, Twitter, or a Yahoo Group.
Gary,
Thanks for chasing us down.
I understand that Facebook won't work for everyone. We simply started the Facebook group shortly after the previous board removed all of the content contributed by his members.
For the record, the Facebook group has ~550 members today and is located at:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/Members4Members
We have also started a twitter presence: @Members4Members
Earlier today I started a Yahoo! group too, for people like you. Since it's only a couple of hours old, the membership count is low at the minute, but it will ramp very quickly as soon as word spreads. There's no doubt that we'll have several hundred participating there in a few weeks too.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/m4m/
It would be great if you can help us spread the word. I wish we could get more cooperation from the previous board owner to update his members that participated in the proxy effort for 2012, but that's not going to happen. Most people are in your shoes and they're working to chase us down for an update on what happened in 2012 and what we will be doing in 2013.
Thanks again for taking the time to chase us down and for your support.
Phil
Phil, I posted those links on VAF....hopefully Doug will allow them to stay for a while.
They're already gone.
...along with a pleading to not post that stuff there...disappointing but expected...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hstaton
Regards
kinda sad that VAF doesn't support it's own members. I got censored based on being political. I don't see the political message in what I posted
Here was my exact post:
just a quick note for those searching to find out about the EAA members seeking
direct elections info. Here is 2 sites:
http://<a href="https://www.facebook...rs4Members</a>
http://<a href="http://groups.yahoo....group/m4m/</a>
I am saddened to hear from a local EAA member that Charlie Becker is no longer with EAA.
(and that his new "Boss" at EAA wasn't even a pilot but some so called "communications manager" that was hired early this year)
I was also told that several long time employees, including Charlie, were put in the position that if they wanted to continue to provide for their families that they needed to pursue alternative employment opportunities
several years ago I attended a SportAir workshop in Indy, the conversations I had with Charlie were what made me renew my membership.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank Charlie for encouraging me to pursue my aviation goals.
I agree, As a condition of employment the EAA should only hire employees with a private pilot or A&P mechanic certificate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Switzer
?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Switzer
Charlie has moved to Maryland to be on staff with AOPA. Best of luck to Charlie! I know he'll do great work there!
Charlie left EAA on June 1st to take a prominent product development position at AOPA. It was my pleasure to work with him for about 3 of his 12 years here, and I miss having him around. I got to see a couple of times at AirVenture, and he seems to be loving the new position and adjusting well to the move.
I was shocked when I heard it yesterday. Charlie was the "face" of EAA for me. I met him at my first Sportair workshop & he was very encouraging. If my only contact with EAA had been the local chapter I never would have joined, as I have nothing in common with most of them (no builders to speak of).
Charlie was responsible for most of the programs at EAA that I found useful.
I had the pleasure of working for Charlie for all the 10 years that I was an EAA employee. He is top shelf in all respects. EAA upper management doens't realize it yet, but they're going to miss Charlie as time goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Switzer
AOPA's gain is definitely EAA's loss in this case.