Time to AirVenture to leave Wisconsin?

You guys are forgetting the main purpose of Airventure. It's all about the money and the public. It hasn't been a "Fly-In" for many years.

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Originally Posted by steve

No need to change anything. I like HBC exactly where it is - remote and free of crowds. There is one thing: Change the flight path of those frickin' helicopters to southwest of the tower.

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I think it is funny when airplane people complain about helicopter noise, then get up in arms when residents complain about airport noise.

The only flying machines that ever bothered me with noise are:

1) The ReMax balloon that buzzed me about 50' high one quiet morning and fired the burner when it was right over my head (and I was unaware of its presence). I just about peed myself.

2) The JSTARS that occasionally do pattern work at the nearby Air Force/Navy base. 1970's era turbojets are LOUD when they are 800' over your house every 10 minutes for an hour. At night. ;-)

Dear EAA... you're welcome to move to California... we got Castle and Mather and McClellan open...

McClellan
Attachment 9085

Mather
Attachment 9087

Castle
Attachment 9086

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Originally Posted by BusyLittleShop

Dear EAA... you're welcome to move to California... we got Castle and McClellan open...

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Well, THAT ought to get people of a particular political bent going.... :-)

Does highlight one feature wsquare mentioned; you'd just as soon have an airport WITHOUT scheduled airline service. Otherwise you'll be ticking off various airlines and making the FAA look closely at your safety margins.

Though I got to say, the first time I went to AirVenture, I flew into Oshkosh on a scheduled flight.

The west coast has a crap-ton of leftover military fields that would work. Arlington and Chehalis in Washington State, Tillamook in Oregon, etc. Tillamook even has a restored blimp hangar, and the Spruce Goose parked at another airport 35 miles away.

Of course, they're ALL kinda far from the centroid....

Ron Wanttaja

1. The CV-19 pandemic was, in a certain sense, a massive earthquake, and we are still being impacted by the aftershocks. Or perhaps another analogy — we are flying along in a Cessna 172 enjoying the views, and unknowingly fly directly into the wake vortex of a fully loaded 747. Unfortunately, there is a possibility of more CV-19 variants that introduce more waves across the globe and US. Think back a mere 4 years, and consider what you would have thought if someone told you that AirVenture 2020 was going to be completely cancelled. Unbelievable, and yet it did happen. And at the time of cancellation, there were discussions on this forum that questioned if EAA would be able to survive the cancellation of AV2020, due to lack of revenue stream.
2. As aviators, we all know the importance of having “alternate plans”, in the case of an unexpected event. We don’t plan on something going wrong, but we prepare for it, should something adverse occur. Suppose another variant occurs, and Wisconsin decides to lockdown large events (yes - a political decision), while other states remain open for business (also, a political decision). Is this the equivalent of flying to a destination airport, finding that it is closed due to a runway mishap, and then need to divert to an alternate? Could EAA survive another cancelled AV? Should EAA have alternate plans in place for resiliency in the face of potentially adverse conditions?
3. One of the messages on this thread has challenged us to consider fundamental suggestions/ideas and therefore "think big", about AV. And, a very interesting analysis has been offered, that helps to understand the geographic distribution of experimental aviators. Responses have been broad and diverse. Some themes seem to be emerging, such as “people logistics” (how to move people and traffic in an efficient and comfortable manner), considerations for the air show and related issues, and even comments about sustainability of AV (ie, has it reached a critical mass), and if AV is even a “fly-in” anymore. All very interesting and valid thoughts. It is these later comments on sustainability of AV that potentially present the greatest opportunity for “big ideas" about AV. We are all passionate about aviation, and AirVenture, and this is precisely the reason that big ideas can be helpful.
4. AirVenture is a massive event and undertaking, that occurs in the form a “pulse”. In other words, everything is quiet and serene for most of the year at Wittman field, and then all of the sudden, there is this massive event for a short period of time (peaking for about one week), and then it reverts back to the quiet and serene conditions. Perhaps what we have is a "massive pulse event” that occurs within what might be considered as a “fragile political environment”. In this case, a fragile political environment can be inferred from the somewhat chaotic events that have been occurring in Wisconsin, themselves potentially tied to the pandemic, and the reason for the original post of this thread.
5. Within this context, the opportunity still remains for “big ideas” and fundamental improvements for AV. One idea would be for EAA to complete a “sustainability and resiliency” study for AV. What changes can be made to enhance sustainability and resiliency? Renewable/solar energy? FEWER and electric only golf carts? Major focus on alternate lower lead aviation fuels so aviators can learn more about what is happening in this area of development. Another idea would be to ‘flatten the curve” - where have we heard that concept before? What if AirVenture were to become a “rolling fly-in”? An “extended fly-in” that lasts for a month, instead of a week? And then, during the rolling fly-in, different themes are emphasized, so that people could identify the theme(s) that they prefer and schedule their time accordingly. Would this be more resilient to upsets? The huge crowd, and thus people logistics would be ameliorated. Perhaps this type of event would be more like a “fly-in”. Another idea is that perhaps EAA should consider a “back-up location” and event plan, such that a “scaled down” AV could be held in a different state, should Wisconsin decide to lockdown large events, while other states remain open. Just some thoughts. (P.S. - yes - Cali would get the political bent going, and for some reason I can't get rid of the numbers - sorry for that.)

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Originally Posted by Wsquare

[LIST=1][*]The CV-19 pandemic w...]

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Thanks for your input.

No.

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Originally Posted by rwanttaja

Arlington and Chehalis in Washington State...

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Umm... Chehalis?! Are you thinking of somewhere else? CLS has a single 5,000x140 runway and is crammed between a Walmart shopping center and a golf course.

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Originally Posted by Eric Page

Umm... Chehalis?! Are you thinking of somewhere else? CLS has a single 5,000x140 runway and is crammed between a Walmart shopping center and a golf course.

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I think I must have been thinking of elsewhere. Probably Shelton.

I haven't been getting out much, lately.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Moving Airventure to more central USA seems unlikely. But the west coast traveler still does need extra help (being twice as far as the east coast to travel to Oshkosh). EAA could certainly help out with improved transportation by airline to Oshkosh. But since Oshkosh has no air service, and Appleton is a huge pain extra connection, the obvious choice for direct flights is the larger Milwaukee airport. But believe it or not there is no daily bus service from Milwaukee to Oshkosh. (yes, I know Lamers has that one daily bus at 7am for the Airventure week)
EAA Airventure could get more bus service options from the Milwaukee airport, please.

edit: forum was down most of yesterday.

Actually, OSH had airline service at the same time as the EAA in the glory days. Why do you think there's a terminal up the north end of the field? They ran the same puddle jumper flights in there during the show as they ran the rest of the year.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

Moving Airventure to more central USA seems unlikely. But the west coast traveler still does need extra help (being twice as far as the east coast to travel to Oshkosh). EAA could certainly help out with improved transportation by airline to Oshkosh. But since Oshkosh has no air service, and Appleton is a huge pain extra connection, the obvious choice for direct flights is the larger Milwaukee airport. But believe it or not there is no daily bus service from Milwaukee to Oshkosh. (yes, I know Lamers has that one daily bus at 7am for the Airventure week)
EAA Airventure could get more bus service options from the Milwaukee airport, please.

edit: forum was down most of yesterday.

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Unless EAA is subsidizing the commercial air service the airlines have no incentive to upgauge or add flights to ATW or MKE. If it was a money maker for the airlines they would be doing it already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Originally Posted by azmedic85355

Unless EAA is subsidizing the commercial air service the airlines have no incentive to upgauge or add flights to ATW or MKE. If it was a money maker for the airlines they would be doing it already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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I didn’t say anything about adding flights. My comment was about the lack of ground transportation from MKE. About the only choice is a rental car, just for one person, and is inefficient and not needed after arrival if camping with a tent. This difficulty of getting to Oshkosh applies to international flights also.

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Originally Posted by Bill Berson

...Appleton is a huge pain extra connection...

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I've flown commercial into Appleton and taken the bus to the OSH grounds, and didn't find it painful in the least. The bus was waiting for the flight to arrive, we stowed our bags underneath and got underway. Easy peasy.

I think he meant the pain of having to switch planes in Detroit, Chicago, or Denver. to get to Appleton. Appleton isn't the hub of anything. I agree once you get to ATW, it's a nice transfer to OSH. One time I took the bus down and the other time I chatted up with the guy next to me and offered to show him how to get to the EAA if he gave me a ride.

Hey Ron… ya forgot about Minneapolis. Delta does have nonstop service from ATL to ATW but it can a little pricey. Mostly like due the fact that Kimberly Clark moved a big chunk it’s headquarters to north Atlanta. Midwest Express had similar flights but when they got absorbed by Frontier those flights stopped. Too bad I really liked Midwest Express.

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Originally Posted by Airmutt

Too bad I really liked Midwest Express.

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It truly was the best care in the air


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Originally Posted by Wsquare

1. The CV-19 pandemic was, in a certain sense, a massive earthquake, and we are still being impacted by the aftershocks. Or perhaps another analogy — we are flying along in a Cessna 172 enjoying the views, and unknowingly fly directly into the wake vortex of a fully loaded 747. Unfortunately, there is a possibility of more CV-19 variants that introduce more waves across the globe and US. Think back a mere 4 years, and consider what you would have thought if someone told you that AirVenture 2020 was going to be completely cancelled. Unbelievable, and yet it did happen. And at the time of cancellation, there were discussions on this forum that questioned if EAA would be able to survive the cancellation of AV2020, due to lack of revenue stream.
2. As aviators, we all know the importance of having “alternate plans”, in the case of an unexpected event. We don’t plan on something going wrong, but we prepare for it, should something adverse occur. Suppose another variant occurs, and Wisconsin decides to lockdown large events (yes - a political decision), while other states remain open for business (also, a political decision). Is this the equivalent of flying to a destination airport, finding that it is closed due to a runway mishap, and then need to divert to an alternate? Could EAA survive another cancelled AV? Should EAA have alternate plans in place for resiliency in the face of potentially adverse conditions?
3. One of the messages on this thread has challenged us to consider fundamental suggestions/ideas and therefore "think big", about AV. And, a very interesting analysis has been offered, that helps to understand the geographic distribution of experimental aviators. Responses have been broad and diverse. Some themes seem to be emerging, such as “people logistics” (how to move people and traffic in an efficient and comfortable manner), considerations for the air show and related issues, and even comments about sustainability of AV (ie, has it reached a critical mass), and if AV is even a “fly-in” anymore. All very interesting and valid thoughts. It is these later comments on sustainability of AV that potentially present the greatest opportunity for “big ideas" about AV. We are all passionate about aviation, and AirVenture, and this is precisely the reason that big ideas can be helpful.
4. AirVenture is a massive event and undertaking, that occurs in the form a “pulse”. In other words, everything is quiet and serene for most of the year at Wittman field, and then all of the sudden, there is this massive event for a short period of time (peaking for about one week), and then it reverts back to the quiet and serene conditions. Perhaps what we have is a "massive pulse event” that occurs within what might be considered as a “fragile political environment”. In this case, a fragile political environment can be inferred from the somewhat chaotic events that have been occurring in Wisconsin, themselves potentially tied to the pandemic, and the reason for the original post of this thread.
5. Within this context, the opportunity still remains for “big ideas” and fundamental improvements for AV. One idea would be for EAA to complete a “sustainability and resiliency” study for AV. What changes can be made to enhance sustainability and resiliency? Renewable/solar energy? FEWER and electric only golf carts? Major focus on alternate lower lead aviation fuels so aviators can learn more about what is happening in this area of development. Another idea would be to ‘flatten the curve” - where have we heard that concept before? What if AirVenture were to become a “rolling fly-in”? An “extended fly-in” that lasts for a month, instead of a week? And then, during the rolling fly-in, different themes are emphasized, so that people could identify the theme(s) that they prefer and schedule their time accordingly. Would this be more resilient to upsets? The huge crowd, and thus people logistics would be ameliorated. Perhaps this type of event would be more like a “fly-in”. Another idea is that perhaps EAA should consider a “back-up location” and event plan, such that a “scaled down” AV could be held in a different state, should Wisconsin decide to lockdown large events, while other states remain open. Just some thoughts. (P.S. - yes - Cali would get the political bent going, and for some reason I can't get rid of the numbers - sorry for that.)

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Man, that's a long winded explanation to say move it to a RED state. All you need to do is have the governors of AZ, SD, TX and FL present bids to the EAA board on an official letterhead. I was pleasantly surprised to find a lack of political discourse at Oshkosh 2021 although I'm sure it was bubbling under the surface. I've attended since the 70's off and on, and it's been reasonably apolitical. But if it is moved to a safer venue, then it wouldn't be such a rickety, haphazard, mess with all the planning of a high school musical. So perhaps you're on to something WS, I'm not going to mention names, but what better place than perhaps adjacent to Palm Beach in FL.

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Originally Posted by L-188

...what better place than perhaps adjacent to Palm Beach in FL.

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Well, that'd be real handy for me and Ron W.

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Originally Posted by Eric Page

Well, that'd be real handy for me and Ron W.

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Nobody wants to see either of you in your Speedo's anyway. ;-)

Thanks Kyle….. for putting that image in my head. I think I need another pina colada;)

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Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright

Nobody wants to see either of you in your Speedo's anyway. ;-)

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Speedos? Man, if it's THAT warm, the boys are out catching the air unencumbered, if you know what I mean....

Ron Wanttaja

They often call him Speedo, but his real name is Mr. Wanttaja.

Excellently obscure! Is that where the "My Name is ..." TV show got it's name?