I just want to confirm, we are not handing out a form to parents asking them to be on alert for potential offenders. The form parents are getting is the same form we've always used.Quote:
Originally Posted by caymancraig
Thanks,
Eric
Printable View
I just want to confirm, we are not handing out a form to parents asking them to be on alert for potential offenders. The form parents are getting is the same form we've always used.Quote:
Originally Posted by caymancraig
Thanks,
Eric
Well it is painfully obvious that the EAA is NOT listening to it's members. The changes to the YPP as it concerns the YE flights are minor at best. Lip service by the President doesn't help. I can speak with authority when I say many of us will not submit to their background check. Nor a continuing check every 3 years!
As evidenced by the many revisions and word changing, without changing any meaning, the initial roll out was and continues to be a disaster.
Funny when I look at the list of pilots that have flown 10 per year Mr. Peltons name doesn't come up.
So Mr. Pelton and the BOD of EAA. Lots of luck with the YE program and the retention of pilots and Chapters. After May 1 we are done.
It was fun while it lasted.
Read the "new" policy (policies). Parsed same for semantic differences with original. Results = absolutely no changes. All they did was split one document into three so as to make it somewhat clearer what parts of the policy apply to which type of activity. So, they changed the words without changing the meaning, intent, or actual requirements. Therefore the prior legal analysis still stands: This policy / procedure does NOTHING to help protect pilots and other volunteers. It only protects the parent corporation and the hired help like Mr. Pelton, and gives them an excuse should anything happen in the future. At the same time, this policy significantly increases (1) the ACTUAL risk that some money-grubbing opportunist parent will bring a child to a YE event for the SOLE PURPOSE of making a false claim of abuse afterward, knowing the pilot and volunteers will never be able to prove the negative because video and still imagery for surveillance is not allowed without prior permission now, and (2) the pilots' and volunteers' personal identity theft probabilities are significantly increased, as the third AND FOURTH party vendors doing the background checks are highly likely to intentionally sell the aggregated personal information (Nowhere in any of this do they or EAA specifically contract with the pilots and other volunteers to maintain confidentiality and secrecy, and the wording of the actual permission form we are asked to sign only applies to the contents of the form itself, while making no actionable assurances with regard to the aggregated search RESULTS).
I'm done with YE and EAA itself. My membership expires on April 30, which is also the last day I would permit any YE kids to fly with me, so the timing is perfect. I will also issue a directive that none of the rental aircraft may be used for any EAA activity in which minors are allowed to participate (it's all about liability Mr. Pelton, and two can play at that game - you just lost an average of 360 kids a year due to me and my planes to protect MY liability interests).
Just got an email from EAA. They still don't get it. Background Check is still required.
Hi:
http://pages.eaa.org/rs/910-SEU-073/...-002-150px.jpgEarlier this month I mentioned that we would be using EAA member feedback to make any necessary clarifications and improvements to the Youth Protection Policy introduced in January. Thanks to your input, we have done that.
The overarching purpose of the policy remains the same – to protect young people who are involved in EAA's youth programs and protect our volunteers who dedicate time, energy, and their own funds to these programs. Within that, we've split the policy's elements into three distinct areas: Young Eagles flights and activities, youth education programs such as aircraft building projects, and youth activities at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh.
Within the Young Eagles segment, you'll note the following changes, thanks to the input of members and volunteers:
- Removing what many thought was an overly burdensome photography policy. There are now simple guidelines to work with parents when taking photos.
- No requirement to provide a Social Security Number when completing the background check (it is optional).
- Simplified requirements for ground volunteers at Young Eagles rallies, to requiring only two-deep leadership that has completed the training and background checks.
- Elimination of the staff-to-youth ratio for Young Eagles rallies.
- Clarification on topics such as supervision in an aircraft, individual Young Eagles flights, and record keeping.
I urge you to also review the brief guidance sheet regarding the Youth Protection Policy and Young Eagles activities. It will help answer questions that you may receive, although it's important to know and understand the entire policy as it relates to Young Eagles. We'll have similar background sheets coming for other chapter youth activities and for AirVenture youth activities. For the latest updates, go to www.EAA.org/youthprotection.
Again, thanks for your input. We are all passionate and dedicated when it comes to EAA's youth programs, which is why they've been so successful. It makes us excited about the positive impact we can have on the future of aviation.
Thanks again for being part of EAA!
Jack Pelton, EAA CEO/Chairman
Background Checks are the irreducible nugget of the Youth Protection Policy. They may change everything else, but the background checks will remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by TedK
If something happens and EAA gets sued, only the background checks will count as evidence that EAA was trying to minimize the chance of a predator using the program. Making people watch a web program won't count for much, with a jury.
Ron Wanttaja
This IS also an issue identity theft for doing a background check. Why should I risk the problem of identity theft as my daughter had years ago just for the eaa. She had great difficulty buying a home after getting married due to identity theft. .............From FOX news today.....................A hacker broke into the University of California, Berkeley computer system holding financial data of 80,000 students, alumni, current and former employees, school officials said Friday.
The university said that although there is no evidence that any information has been stolen, it has notified potential victims of the breach so they can watch for signs of possible misuse of their personal data.
Those notified include students and staff who received non-salary payments though electronic fund transfers, such as financial aid awards and work-related reimbursements. Vendors whose financial information was in the system for payment purposes are also at risk.
The hack occurred in December right after Christmas and just as UC Berkeley was in the middle of patching a security flaw in the financial management system.
We just got notified this week that we were in another batch of data that got hacked......Let's see, that makes the 3rd time in less than a year now. I'm giving up on keeping track of how many times it has happened now. Any wonder why some of are a little paranoid about our data?Quote:
Originally Posted by vettdvr
The background checks didn't bother me as much as the screwball fly-by-night way that and the training program was implemented. Half of the controversy could have been dealt with if someone out of the close knit cabal had looked at that disaster before it was dumped on the membership.
If the EAA is willing to pay me 30K a year I will take any training and complete any background check information they want. But last I checked, I pay THEM. Last I looked, they are supposed to represent the membership. I don't think there was a massive call from the membership to change the YE program.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk
Seriously, does anyone know of a way I can be in the IAC without being a member of the EAA? I'd drop the EAA like a bad habit, just like they seemed to have dropped the whole concept of the EAA.
When is the next election of anyone in the EAA that supports this abortion?
http://www.biplaneforum.com/showpost...2&postcount=52Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
Thank you for that.Quote:
http://www.biplaneforum.com/showpost...2&postcount=52Quote:
http://eaaforums.org/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ssmdive http://eaaforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png
Seriously, does anyone know of a way I can be in the IAC without being a member of the EAA? I'd drop the EAA like a bad habit, just like they seemed to have dropped the whole concept of the EAA.
BJC
I already do that. But I am still an EAA member and have to pay them 10 dollars. They get to count me in their rolls as 'supporting them'... Same trick they play with Airventures membership.Quote:
Originally Posted by fidot
The key point, of course. I have to take a ton of online training at work, from business courtesies to ethics to hazardous waste handling to clean-room procedures. Because I have accounts on some government computer systems, I also have to take many of the GOVERNMENT-equivalent courses...and, frankly, I couldn't care less that Manual ABC-333-111 governs the PII-protection procedures of agency XYZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
But...my employer pays me an ungodly amount of money, and so I salute and take the cute little course where I earn "rocket parts".
Here's a closer analogy to Young Eagles: Imagine you're walking down the street just before Christmas and see a Salvation Army bell-ringer. You pull a quarter out of your pocket and start reaching for the kettle. "Not so fast!" says the bell-ringer. "Please take this online course, and give us your name, address, phone number, etc. for a background check."
This policy ticks-off the people Young Eagles needs the most: The pilots who donate their time, aircraft, and the money required to keep the tanks filled to fly kids.
Young Eagles is ~31,000 kids short of two million. It would have been nice if they'd completed the second million under the old rules (or less onerous versions of what they chose), then honorably retired "Young Eagles" and merged it with "EAA Eagle Flights" with the new protections. As it is, it's leaving a bad taste in the mouth of a lot those who helped make it to 1,969,000 kids.
Ron Wanttaja
Right there with you! Debating whether or not to enter first contest for the year right now and really torn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive
'Gimp
FWIW I spoke to a pilot yesterday with over 1000 YE flights. He mailed in his card withdrew from EAA and said good by. The local EAA chapter currently doesn't have enough people committed to the training/check to have any event sponsored by EAA. Now looks like local pilots and FBO will just do fly in's for locals.
What will the EAA do to help a member whose information was hacked at the provider of the background check? That information goes to one third party before going to another party doing the actual background check.
Apparently the results of the background check will be delivered to EAA for review. Will this information be stored on a "totally secure" server and only be availalbe to the one person who reviews it.
How many people at EAA will actually be needed to complete the reviews? To what level of security check will all of those people be subjected? What help will the EAA provide to a member whose information is hacked at EAA?
Will the reports be stored in a Mason jar on Funk and Wagnall's front porch? The actual security will be about the same.
There are simply too many holes in this program for the comfort of any Young Eagles volunteer.
:eek: :( :mad: While I fully understand the reasoning behind the new policies, I am not so sure we have not let Pandora out of her box with no real answers on how to get her back in! I will tell you after speaking with several chapter leaders in our area the new mandate is not being well received! During a recent poll at the last meeting of our chapter members, 2/3 of those present were opposed to the changes outright and the other third were opposed as it is stated currently. We will suspend youth activities until such a time when more answers are made available. If we are going to see GA continue we need to attract the younger people to it. But with the new constraints it will make it much more problematic! I suggest every member request their chapter leaders to e-mail Jack Pelton with their opinions and just how it is affecting their current youth programs. Jack this needs to be fixed sooner then later or the youth programs may very well be at risk of collapse.
As much as it pains me to say so ... I completely support your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Copapilot
I know a number of individuals that have supported the YE program and the EAA for more than a decade that are throwing in the towel over this issue they are so disgusted. YE flights and other youth activities are being cancelled; coordinators stepping down, directives being put out not to allow flight line aircraft to be used for any EAA events. One guy even indicated he's pulling his Planned Giving.
It's a very, very sad day in the life of this organization. EAA membership may not notice these changes tomorrow but the numbers will be different a year from now. Like you I will let my membership expire this Spring and will find another venue to share my enthusiasm for aviation and resources.
If EAA HQ cared about the impact, they would survey the chapter presidents asking about the impact to the individual chapters. It appears to me the lawyers have the leadership terrified. That tells me we don't have any leadership. In all the years I was a chapter president, the only real communications I had from HQ came in the form of them wanting money or to inform us we weren't allowed to do something as a chapter the risk management people felt was of too great of a risk for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick
Jack has sent out two (or more) emails in support of this program, so I would think his support is fully behind it. I don't expect him to fix anything.
Like many others, my 28 year membership expires in November, then I'll be gone. This isn't the organization I worked to build.
-Cub Builder
I weighed in much earlier, but I'll ask again, if somewhat rhetorically: Hasn't America changed to the point that innocent programs like Young Eagles can no longer exist? Sadly, in case after case, well intentioned and innocent activities such as this, and perhaps EAA itself, can no longer be enjoyed due to degenerates amongst us, and lawyers looking to protect us whether we like it or not, at great profit to themselves? Oh, and let's not forget the Great Altar of Political Correctness. The slippery slope just pitched nose down another degree. I pray God continues to Bless America.
<Quote> I weighed in much earlier, but I'll ask again, if somewhat rhetorically: Hasn't America changed to the point that innocent programs like Young Eagles can no longer exist? Sadly, in case after case, well intentioned and innocent activities such as this, and perhaps EAA itself, can no longer be enjoyed due to degenerates amongst us, and lawyers looking to protect us whether we like it or not, at great profit to themselves? Oh, and let's not forget the Great Altar of Political Correctness. The slippery slope just pitched nose down another degree. I pray God continues to Bless America. <End Quote>Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilmore
Good questions and comments. The world has changed. Technology has enabled much of that change with instant communications. One of those communicators is the media. When I was trying to grow up years ago news was spread by rumors and gossip. Do you remember the game of "Telephone?" The same thing applies to the media. They will go on site to report something. They will interview witnesses and neighbors. The writers and editors then get the story and tell the "reporter" what to say on the live, on scene report. The media seems to take great pains to involve innocent parties in the stories. Such was the case in one of Jack Pelton's "close calls". The media involved the local EAA chapter by merely including images of the chapter's hangar in media reports. The perpetrator was not a member of any chapter but was an EAA member. There were no images of EAA headquarters. The chapter had held Young Eagles rallies at the far end of the airport and the suspect did fly young eagles at those rallies.
The background checks are another example of instant communications. A person's background can be accessed for a fee. If it justifies a fee it must be important. We'd better have that record. How accurate is the record? How many "clean" pilots or volunteers will be eliminated because records have been inter-mixed or the wrong record is accessed by the company doing the checks? Technology is not without its share of errors.
Paranoia breeds paranoia. Everyone thinks the risks can be mitigated by a program or by locking up all the guilty.
Political Correctness is very likely the motivator for EAA to institute the Youth Protection Program. Everyone else is doing it so it must be the correct thing to do. Did the EAA ask any of the other organizations how many molesters were eliminated from their activities? Were any molestations prevented? Did the program prevent the molester from acting outside the organization's activities?
The camel's nose is under the tent. Will he soon be urinating on your bedding?
The two "close calls" amount to .0001015744033 percent of the Young Eagles that have been flown.
I find it disgusting that members must be subjected to such scrutiny to participate in an activity for which they must pay to participate.
Well... the question is, are "degenerates" more common today than 30 years ago? 75 years ago? 100 years ago? A thousand years ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilmore
The answer is "no", of course. That sort of activity is as old as man. We have better vigilance today. Even better, we teach those most at risk the danger signs and encourage them to report if they're uncomfortable about a situation.
Heightened awareness of the problem triggered programs like EAA's, not a change in society. The risk hasn't changed, just the realization of the magnitude of it.
Ron Wanttaja
Which, if I remember my data correctly, mostly involves relatives and known acquaintances. That is, the fear of random strangers molesting children is, for the most part, misplaced. But everyone is afraid of everything now, so we end up with useless rules and policies like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by rwanttaja
I see that Jack has stated that 3000 members have completed the background checks, I wonder how many were pilots and what percentage of the Young Eagles pilots do they truly represent ????
I guess Jack Pelton and the Board of Directors, now believe child molesters involve Young Eagle Pilots and/or the ground personal. This is an irresponsible and sadly a very poorly thought out program, to say the least. The initial presentation was a disaster and we can, at this time I believe, see the President and senior management trying to cover their back sides. All should be fired and this disaster of a program scraped.Quote:
Originally Posted by rv builder
Hello All,
I have flown only a few Y.E.(got the patch and the letter from HQ), BUT, I do not need those trinkets to tell me I am a
good Ambassador for General Aviation. I have flown many more people as an individual plane owner and enthusiast then as a
Y.E. program participant.
I as an individual incur the same Liability, wear and tear on the plane and time spent whether a fun flight or a EAA sanctioned program flight.
However, with the non sanctioned fun flight, I, as a pilot and plane owner can vet WHO is going into my plane (something this program does NOT do).
I have found that after a Y.E. flight MOST people simply walk away from their childs free airplane ride with the thought of "that was a cool way to spend a
couple of hours" and are not heard from again.
When I personally take someone on a non-EAA sanctioned flight I KNOW who they are.
I know them because:
1. They are a friend. Maybe they have never flown in a small plane and would like to see their local area from altitude.
2. They are an acquaintance.I talk about flying ALL THE TIME. On social media or face to face SOMETHING always has me turn the conversation to flying
and what a great feeling and freedom it provides. I invite them for a flight.
My point is that after flying someone I know, even only casually, there is a STRONGER bond made and repeat flights are the norm NOT the exception.
Those people may not go on to obtain a license BUT they are now advocates for our area airport.
I do not think I will continue Y.E. flights as I can do the same thing without the hassle on my own.
The problem is that there's a whole segment of the population that YE reaches out to that don't have a friend who knows a pilot that can take them for a ride. I was extremely lucky as a kid to have a father who happened to have some pilots for clients. Had he been in some other legal specialty, I'd probably not have gotten a ride until college.
Frankly, it's not just kids (though kids are a logical place to start). I attend a lot of airshows as an exhibit plane. Sitting in my plane still is as close as many of these people even get to an airplane, and sometimes I get a frank discussion with them as to what it takes to become a pilot. I've seen that dreamy "some day" look. I give out a lot of referrals to YE at these events. I put roughly 250 kids into the Navion on the ground in the 4 hours during the Air and Space Museum family day. A few adults, too.
We did a special olympics rally (plane pull) up on the cargo ramp every year. I've put United ramp/cargo guys into my plane. These guys work around airplanes all day long but never actually get to experience aviatino.
The YE does provide additional liability protection for me as a pilot.
I can tell usually tell when I board the kids when I got one that has hope. Try to get them in the right seat.
My big complaint again is the half-assed roll out of the program. I hope this does not "kill" the YE program. It deserves a chance.
What a great story and you are indeed "a good Ambassador for General Aviation". I can't disagree with anything you said. The very best to you and yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by medic2nurse
The thing that I am most disappointed about is the fact that this forum was created and is maintained by EAA, yet there is NO interaction with the members by an 'Official'. Weak, very weak. The sheer number of posts in this thread and the parallel threads should be screaming that there is an issue and deserve some acknowledgement from EAA. This is not a fluff post about what band of has beens so will be playing in the square or a debate about which is better, Rans or Zenith. This is a very active thread on POLICY that affects a principal program from the organization. I will always be a member of EAA as I do believe that the good outweighs the bad. But come on EAA, man up and acknowledge the issue, at least we all would understand your thinking.
Rick
We have been listening, responding, acknowledging and changing the policy according to the thoughts and concerns brought up here. I don't think it's quite fair to say we haven't been interacting, although I would have to agree it's not as frequent as most members on the forum, but we have been interacting. Dennis and Eric have done an exceptional job of reaching out to the right contacts to provide answers regarding the policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoranch
Thanks!
Glory
I really would like an answer to my question, is anyone in EAA listening, come on how about doing us the favor of giving a legitimate answer to what I consider an important question. The only reason I can see not to respond is that an honest answer might be embarrassing to EAA if it shows that the vast majority of Young Eagles pilots are refusing to submit their personal info and complete the background checks. All I am asking for is honesty and let the chips fall where they will.Quote:
Originally Posted by vaflier
I agree the Young Eagles Program must not fail and I believe it will continue, as long as headquarters keeps its fingers off of the program, which it seem they are not going to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingRon
The Young Eagles Protection Program is destined to destroy the current program, which is a prefect program, performed by the most dedicated pilots one will find anywhere. A bandage here and a bandage there, will not work. The current membership is being divided and we are losing members already. This is a failed program and must be completely disbanded, however, witnessing the interworkings at headquarters, I truly believe that upper management and the board of directors would do nothing constructive, rather than admit they were wrong. Very, very sad for all of us who truly love the Young Eagles Program.
Glory,Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Aulik
with all due respect ( and truly mean that ), reaching out to what contacts? The people here asking the questions and concerns? If so I must have missed the posts and I apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaflier
Let me see what I can do for you on this.
Eric
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyoranch
I believe what Glory meant is that her, Dennis, myself and others have sought out people internally to be able to answer the questions that members have had on these forums.
For the most part our intent is to have these forums be a place for members to interact with each other, but when we see places that it makes sense to interject we have and will continue to do so.
Additionally, we are encouraging people to contact us directly to discuss questions or concerns. Some conversations can be adequately handled via the forums, but sometimes a live conversation can be a more effective means. If you feel that you're not getting the answers you are looking for here, I can help facilitate a conversation with EAA staff that can better answer your questions.
Thanks,
Eric
Thank you Eric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cernjar
thanks ericQuote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cernjar
rick
Ok, update.Quote:
Originally Posted by vaflier
So far, we now have about 4,000 people that have done both the online training and background check. Of those 4,000, almost 2,500 have flown young eagles in the past 2 years and are pilots. Of the other 1,500 that haven't flown young eagles in the past 2 years, there is likely a percentage of them that are pilots, but we do not know how many at this time.
Is that helpful?
I disagree. Nobody bothered to answer the apparent security hole issues raised other than "We're EAA headquarters, you can trust us." Sorry that's not compelling. Fortuantely, some of the more security minded people were able to dig through the BLATANT RED FLAGS in the screwed up implementation and LIES (intentional or not) given by the EAA staff about the nature of the checks and come up with a reasonable hypotheisis why the disaster wasn't as bad as it appeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glory Aulik
Nobody either in this forum or in EMAILS specifically sent to the EAA on the subject answered my issues about this or the fact that my training completion and background check things were stuck in PENDING after getting an error at the completion of the course saying the restults "could not be stored at this time." I've recieved NO answers PERIOD from the EAA. Your post is inaccurate. NOBODY has responded form the EAA in a satisfactory manner.
Eric, thank you very much for responding and posting the above information, however you missed the part of my question regarding , of the 2500 pilots who have flown Young Eagles in the last two years what percentage of the total Young Eagles pilots do they represent. That is obviously not how I posed the original questiona and I have rephrased it in this post to try and clarify my question for you. I really do apreciate your response and efforts . Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cernjar
Randy