Would probably bump up on the max stall speed thing.
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The weather was the best in years. Rain threatened one day for about an hour but it blew over with strong winds and no rainfall. None of the hot humid 110 degree days of the past. Just pleasant sunny or cloud cover days. I actually did something I've never done--wear a jacket for Weds. night airshow, it got a little cool at night. That night airshow was the best one by far since they started 2 years ago.
The all black CAD Icon looked good but they had it all blocked off with rope so couldn't see inside the cockpit. There were a few exhibitors showing AoA's for the first time and they all worked well but IMO, Icon's is the most intuitive.
I don't think you'll see the additional allowable 170 lbs used any time soon in a general across the board manner. Because of the long wait for the decision, I was told that Icon had to finalize the weight some time ago so they could move forward with further development. That weight is 1510 lbs. I will tell you this though: When I mentioned that I'm no longer interested in an A5 without power wing fold, I was strongly advised to email the VP, Sales and that "something" could be worked out. So, there must be others who have the same complaint and that "something" to me could only mean a custom built aircraft for those that want retracts and power wingfold.
Very interesting, Floatsflyer, and thanks for the reply. Not sure where you live but there are probably enough A5 supporters here to start a flying club. Would make the A5 down right affordable! :)
If it were to be a custom build to have both options on the A5, would it still be certified as an S-LSA in that scenario?
One other question for you Floatsflyer:
Did you happen to poke them for a bit more information on what they meant by the "tough decisions" they had to make which led them to the current 1,510lbs? The press release mentioned the following:
“We had to make some tough engineering decisions in order to keep the program moving forward given the FAA delay,” said ICON VP of Engineering, Matthew Gionta...
My question is what options were given up or what compromises were made to get to the 1,510 especially when they were starting with a possible and eventually approved weight of 1,680.
Icon posted some additional photos from their Oshkosh setup on their Facebook page. Here's a shot of their production version for the main instrument cluster:
Attachment 3170 MAIN INSTRUMENT CLUSTER
The A5’s interior is designed to provide the best possible user experience, and the instrument cluster is a central part of that. Optimized around VFR (Visual Flight Rules) flying, the cluster conveys a clear hierarchy of function with the most important information concentrated directly in front of the pilot. At the top of the cluster and closest to the pilot’s line of sight is the Angle of Attack (AoA) gauge, which provies a realtime picture of how the wing is flying. Its intuitive design immediately conveys how close the wing is to stalling, regardless of airspeed, weight, or maneuvering G’s. A sophisticated electrical circuit converts pressure readings into AoA indicator bands on the gauge, which is highlighted here.
Every fatal stall/spin crash that killed pilots I have personally known (at least four cases) occurred at full throttle. But the FAA did not even discuss the full power departure stall/spin subject.
In fact, FAR 23.201 (e) (ii) allows spin resistance testing with just 50 percent power.
In other words, the FAA spin resistance standard may not protect pilots that stall with full power, as most do, in my experience.
At the Icon booth I asked the spokesperson: "Was the spin resistance test at full power or 50 percent power"
No direct answer was provided. He said: " I don't have time or interest to read FAR 23 details"
So, I am still wondering if Icon (or any aircraft) has ever demonstrated spin resistance at full throttle. Without further information to the contrary, I assume spin resistance at full throttle is likely not possible.
In looking at the FAA's response to the exemption and listening to some of the interviews they did with Earl Lawrence and Kirk Hawkins, etc... it would seem the response to that argument is basically the A5 has to meet all LSA standards except for the weight standard given that they were granted that particular exemption. Given that, would a Cessna 152 meet all LSA standards requirements (weight not withstanding)?
That's a great question, one I asked myself as well. I really don't have a clue because Icon and the FAA have set up a very peculiar and perplexing situation. Here's what we do know: Icon has the right to go to 1680 lbs. But they've locked in at 1510. They will produce conformity aircraft at 1510 lbs to present to the FAA and pass the SLSA audit at that weight. All production aircraft will therefore be at 1510 lbs and be delivered to owners with a gross weight of 1510 lbs.
So if I'm correct about a custom built aircraft that can legally weigh more(and I'm only speculating here because this is all I can think of when someone tells me we'll do "something"), I'm suspecting that Icon would demand a liability waiver be signed as it's not to comformity but is still legal because of the granted exemption. So, here you have a confounding situation: Legal weight to 1680 vs. ASTM audit conformity to 1510. I'm going to write that email to the Sales VP and ask what they will do for someone who wants retracts and electric wingfold. I'll let y'all know what answer I get. Stay tuned.
Thanks Floatsflyer. I look forward to hearing their response!
I see you're on the east coast. Would that airport be in Maryland. I met a lady CFI who owns a flight school and a Searey dealership, I think her name was Helen. Very bright, knows everything about Seareys and she provided some very useful info and insider knowledge.
Yep, that's correct. Helen was my primary flight instructor. Small world! :)
We've got quite a gray area here. As you say, Icon must ship airplanes out the door at the weight they've got their conformity aircraft at. Under the current rules, a person can buy an A5, then file the paperwork to convert it to Experimental LSA. They are then allowed to modify it as they wish, as long as it continues to meet the 14CFR Part 1 definition of a Light Sport Aircraft.
But... an Icon A5 *doesn't* meet the definition. The production airplanes have a waiver from the FAA, but does that waiver apply to Experimentals?
For an Experimental Amateur-Built, it wouldn't, since the manufacturer is the entity that built the airplane "for education or recreation." Any waiver awarded to a third party wouldn't matter.
I think Experimental LSAs still list the original manufacturer, so I would expect that the waiver will transfer. But is the ELSA approved to 1510 pounds...or 1680 pounds? The waiver itself is to 1680, but the conforming aircraft used to prove compliance was 1510.
I'm guessing the 1680 limit will be the limit (no precedent to hold an ELSA to the SLSA's original weight). But what will Icon do? Every A5 taken into ELSA is no longer under their control by the Federal Aviation Regulations, but they'll STILL be listed as the manufacturer. Which means they still get sued if the plane crashes.
Another problem might arise due to the naivete of the Icon buyers. Supposedly, many of those aren't pilots...and even fewer probably understand the ins and outs of the LSA licensing process. If a guy buys an Icon and adds an aftermarket powered wing fold and retracts, hopefully the installer (A&P or LSA Maintainer) will enter the appropriate paperwork to take it Experimental. But will be buyer understand the legal ramifications of switching from SLSA to ELSA? Will the additional gear compensate for the loss of value due to its ELSA vs. SLSA status?
This is going to be fun to watch....
Ron Wanttaja
You've added more to the conundrum. It's starting to look like a very dark grey. Geez, I thought this was all over and done with last Monday, the 29th(my birthday BTW). Icon is the most interesting company in the world!(a take on that beer commercial)
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...
Well, it's not that dark...none of what I said affects Icon's ability to sell ready-to-fly SLSAs, which is their primary business.
The fringes may get a bit strange, though. The better the company does, the more it's in danger from the ELSA conversions. The jury ain't going to understand the difference. Might explain that snitch box Icon had wanted to include in each aircraft (flight recorder that they would retain ownership of).
The question now is: How many individually-owned Icon A5s will be at Oshkosh next year? Should we open a betting line?
Ron Wanttaja
My crystal balling has batted 1000 so far. I said they'd get the exemption and I said back in April that the FAA and Icon would make a joint announcement to the hordes on the first day of Oshkosh.
There will be just one Icon A5 at Oshkosh 2014. It will be the first customer delivered model and the Keys will be handed over to the new owner with requisite Icon fanfare and flash on the very first day. Now here's the kicker. Icon has never met a marketing opportunity it didn't like. The keys handover will take place not at their exhibit but at Phillips 66 show centre so as to accomadate as many press and attendees as possible. See ya'll there!
The reply I received was disturbing and puzzling. The VP denied saying that "something could be worked out." Instead, he said there was a misunderstanding on my part as there is no plan at this time for auto-wing fold and retracts availability and if it is a must have for me, I should hold off at this point.
Clearly, he was covering his backside because at Oshkosh he obviously spoke without authorization and now regrets the conversation. I let him know with certainty that I was unhappy with his revisionist nonsense. Just call it one more customer disatisfaction experience with Icon. We move on.
Hi everyone have been away from watching whats happening at icon for approx 6months and just checked their site recently to find the price has risen from $139000 to $189000 which will increase higher with trailer and options where will the price stop ??? $250000 ??? My question is has a mass exodus started yet or are people still putting deposit money down on an unknown and yet produced aircraft???
The price increase occurred prior to Oshkosh and the exemption announcement. No surprise there or with the amount of increase plus CPI. Prior to first customer delivery next year with appropriate fanfare on the first day of Oshkosh, you can bet the farm that the price will rise again probably to $199K base. Haven't heard of any defections and they were definitely taking new promotional deposits of $2,000 this year.
Hey floats has everyone lost interest in this thread or is there another one somewhere its been a while but im back. With the FAA weight exemption they have made the cap-chute system mandatory what cost will this add$$$ what's your estimated base price now? Also is there any photos or videos on the A5 at Oshkosh anybody?