RED Tram route opinions?

The powers that be changed the Red route to include a counter-clockwise loop around Homebuilt Camping. The Warbird stop became Northbound only.

I have my opinion but was wondering about the change from a passenger's viewpoint. I know the Shuttle/Tram managers (who do a thankless Herculean job by the way) read this forum and they DO want your input.

FWIW I feel the restoration of the Yellow route (Hangar Café to Control Tower) did a great job at relieving the passenger pressure and balancing the loads North to South.

I liked it. A nice change of pace. One problem I did notice was some people would try to jump on or off the tram when it made the stop at the stop sign near the green shower house in the N40. A stop there near the green shower house would be nice, or at least an announcement that it is not a stop and to remain seated.

On all the runs I conducted we announced and stopped at the shower house, relocated Orange parking lot entrance (gate 36), the 'official' shuttle stop #13 and then at gate #34 by the Nature center before swinging back East to the forums and then the Tower terminal.

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Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY

The powers that be changed the Red route to include a counter-clockwise loop around Homebuilt Camping. The Warbird stop became Northbound only.

I have my opinion but was wondering about the change from a passenger's viewpoint. I know the Shuttle/Tram managers (who do a thankless Herculean job by the way) read this forum and they DO want your input.

FWIW I feel the restoration of the Yellow route (Hangar Café to Control Tower) did a great job at relieving the passenger pressure and balancing the loads North to South.

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This was interesting. On Saturday after the Angles my son wanted to ride the Tram (On his to do list). Yellow was shut down due to too many people so we took the Red. We needed a handicap tram and sadly they pulled both handicap Red Trams out of service (Whole different issue). While we waited in line, several people were very vocal about the fact that the Red Tram would not stop at the Showers. My personal take, if you are going to drive past the showers, why not take the extra 30 seconds and make it a stop?


***EDIT: I also want to thank the countless volunteers who make the Tram system "Go". We did end up doing a loop on the red (first time ever riding them) and the staff on the tram was knowledgeable, welcoming, and made the ride fun for my son. ***

You are most welcome sir. We try our best to make the tram experience a positive one. As always, the more folks who volunteer each day (and then show up) the more options the shuttle bosses have. Figure that each tram needs a driver and conductor, on two shifts, plus relief workers to give at least one break during each 6 hour shift and it quickly adds up to an army of people to keep the rigs on the road. Kudos to Gene, Sandy, Mason and the rest for herding the cats to provide this amazing service. They ARE the unsung heroes of the trams.

While driving tram, mostly yellow, I made a list of suggested changes. Gave to Gene and Sandy. will see next year. Tram stop for Theater in woods should be moved back to former location. I know it was a bottle neck when Jerry played there, but I heard quite a few complaints about walking across the intersection. Second was making a stop at the new camp Scholler entry point. I had a lot of people try to jump on there as opposed to walk up the hill, I would stop for disabled when I could there. As for the red route, I got to do that for a day. Stop needs to be placed at first left turn after going down the road to Homebuilders. Again, I did stop for people there, also at stop sign at left turn going back to Colledge park. Again, I did stop there. I like to help when I can. I hate to pass by people needing help. Saw trams bunching up occasionally, but with help from my conductor, we managed to space ourselves.

I like the red tram trip though the homebuilt area. In prior years, I've always skipped walking that back-north section of HBC because its just too far. This year, it was an unexpected ride the first time we hopped on the tram at the north end! It also provides direct access to the new homebuilt pavilion. In general, the trams we very effective this year. We hardly had a wait at all to get on.

I absolutely loved the new red tram route! There was some confusion in the beginning with some drivers refusing to drive the new route and insisting that the maps were mistaken. After that was resolved, it was wonderful. It really made days 5 and 6 much more tolerable after my feet had said "no more!"

I drove the red tram from 2-8 on Thursday. Only my second year at OSH, but it was apparent that red was pretty popular. So much so that during peak hours, I feel like they should have an express tram... one that only runs the loop, and does not stop at the common red/green/yellow station. I say this because there were always people at the first stop after the station that were trying to get to the Wittman gate, HBC, or the showers, but they couldn't ever get on a tram because it was always full.

I always stopped at the showers (turn left at the gate, stop on the curve after the stop sign), orange parking, and HBC. My conductor and I were quite efficient. Here's hoping they pave that area that my conductor and I termed "the latest EAA Oshkosh feature, the complimentary spinal readjustment area." That would significantly reduce the amount of time that red takes to run its route.

On Thursday, we had to occasionally take a red or yellow tram and make it a green express, because traffic was awful at the gate, causing the line for green to wrap almost all the way around the station. Of course... sending that many trams to the gate only complicated the traffic problem...

Personally, I thought the red route worked really well. Haven't ridden the trams much in the past, so didn't know there was a revised route. At the tower stop, it seemed like there were frequently more red trams than any of the others. It's frustrating when you're waiting for a yellow tram, and there are 5-6 red ones that show up & no yellow ones.

I didn't care where it went, or in which direction, or anything else... just that it stopped by the HB pavilion. I walk most everywhere when I'm there, but once in a while I'm just too beat and it was nice to not have to make that last trudge of the day through the grass.

Why wasn't the gate 34 stop (Nature Center / SOS bros / Bus Park) in use the first 4 days of the show?

While we all followed the same basic protocol, on some level each tram is not unlike a ship or I guess an airplane for that matter - the conductor is the pilot/captain and they control the experience. "Technically" for all color routes we were told to only stop at designated and marked with signage numbered shuttle stops. It makes perfect sense or you'd have to be stopping every 50 feet along a route to accommodate individual passengers. On the new for this year Red experiment that meant only stopping at Shuttle Stop 13.

I suspect many of us conductors when running the Red route used that more as a 'guide' rather than a hard-fast rule and added stops as we deemed valuable, especially along the almost deserted back road at the West end of Homebuilt camping.

The biggest complaint I have with the trams has still not been addressed. They went with the completely pointless idea of numbering the tram stops (who cares). The transportation system is still largely cryptic. The maps are useless; the signage is non-existant.

You need to put a sign up at the stop (especially the junction points like the Hangar Cafe and at the Tower) that says something like "Board Here for: Theatre in the Woods, Vintage, Ultralights, Seaplanes." that would get rid of 90% of the confusion and the questions to the tram volunteers.

The traffic cop at the Hangar Cafe junction was nice but ditch the #*@@$ whistle. It's obnoxious.


The other problem is the non-tram shuttles were just a complete screw-up. Nobody could figure out what or when or where they were. Complaints of people waiting for an HOUR with no shuttle trying to head north from Hangar Cafe.

I had a woman (and her three young daughters) come in and ask where the shuttle to the RED lot was. There is no indication of a RED LOT on any of the maps nor an indication of where these lot shuttles picked up. At least she knew it was off Ripple Road somewhere according to her iPhone. Since we'd closed down operations after the end of the night airshow, I gave her a ride to her car myself.


This definitely needs work.

Don't know when that happened Ron, but the Yellow (Hangar Café to Tower) and Blue (Hanger Café to Ultralights) trams were taken out of service during the Blue Angels airshows due to crowd safety concerns. One of my faves was a visitor desperately seeking transportation info to " get to my car which was parked by a camping area near a fence" and that is ALL the info they could provide. They may well STILL be wandering the grounds today - LOL

IMHO NOBODY reads signs - I was at the Tower several times when someone looking at the sign, asked where the Red Tram was going. I agree that a clear description at each shuttle stop for both directions would help. I don't know who at EAA is the Signage God or Goddess but if I find out I'll definitely send them the request. I conduct, so a boat-load of those pedestrian questions came to me ALL DAY LONG, EVERY DAY, FOR NINE DAYS.

It IS unfortunate and beyond my comprehension that they seem to make the final map decisions and THEN change the shuttle routes after it's too late to change the maps.

This was NOT during the airshow. It was between the Saturday (daytime) airshow and the start of the night airshow.

I am quite familiar with moving the vehicles back to the perimeter road during the relocated crowd iine. Too bad it wasn't rigidly enforced across he board.

I'm sorry, but there is ZERO useful information on the tram signs other than the sponsor. It's impossible to tell either from the signage, or from the printed maps, or from the complete disaster of an Airventure App WHERE the trams go and when they can be expected to operate.

You tell me wHERE THE #*($& a#*@(w The RED LOT is or how the to get there on the EAA transportation system.



I only know because the woman who was abondoned by the EAA with here three young children ant 10:30 at night at the conclusion of the night airshow Saturday happened to have the "find my car" app recently installed on her phone, and I was willing to ILLEGALLY DRIVE a golf cart around greater Nekimi looking for it.

Don't take it as a slam against the good tram volunteers, but the entire transportation system has been consistently moving backwards for the past four years.

Hey Ron.... I FOUND the Red lot.....sort of.... it's mentioned in an EAA update.

https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...tendance-grows


"The number of people who drove to AirVenture was so large Friday, EAA added a new parking lot dubbed the Pink Lot. And, preparing for even larger Saturday crowds had crews getting a second new lot ready named the Red Lot.
“The number of cars Friday was well above anything in recent memory,” said Brian Wierzbinski, EAA executive vice president and CFO. “We filled all the traditional lots, prepared the Pink Lot, and then put 800 cars in there.” The Pink Lot is adjacent to the Brown Lot, located across from the EAA Aviation Museum on Poberezny Road.
Brian said they created the Red Lot “on the chance that we’ll need it.” He was monitoring traffic around noon on Saturday and said he’d know in the next few hours whether they would also have to open that lot. "

So the pretty darned good reason it was not on any maps and no one knew about it? It didn't exist until mid-afternoon on Saturday the 29th. Doesn't help that one lost soul but I feel better now anyway.

My only complaints from the Trams were the Blue route that goes out through Vintage and Ultralights. The wait was 15 minutes or more and the drivers always seemed to be bunched up. I think they could do a better job of keeping them selves spaced apart so the wait isn't so long.

This demonstrates how pitiful the Airventure App is. In addition to being a major regression in features from previous years (Never could figure out how to find a schedule), they should make it dynamic in light of things like this. They could also put out the daily airshow schedule.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

...they should make it dynamic in light of things like this. They could also put out the daily airshow schedule.

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Given the WIFI quality, I'm fearful of what a dynamic app would do to my phone's battery life.

Still downloading.....

Ron and Randy, I have been tram driving longer than I care to remember, through 3 changes of chairmen. No matter what or how signs are posted, people will NOT read them.When I am driving, I have my conductor give a detailed talk on where we are going, stops and what trams are going where. Problem is, no one listens, specially when the PA on the field is blaring out some mundane info, or as usual, they are talking among themselves. There also is a set of signs all over that are pyramid shaped and say "Free Shuttle Bus leaves from here for museum".. Try explaining that one to people. As for tram spacing, there is a pamphlet handed out to tram drivers/conductors about that subject. Has to do with required speed. My conductor and I have figured out how to do it. We have never gotten that close to other trams. I could go on about this subject, but not enough pages here.

Bill L

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Originally Posted by Kyle Boatright

Given the WIFI quality, I'm fearful of what a dynamic app would do to my phone's battery life.

Still downloading.....

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The wifi is useless. It would update via the cell. It ain't a whole lot of data.

Much preferred if at least some red trams returned the same way otherwise a long walk back towards Boeing Plaza awaits.

It is true we only picked up passengers heading North, but we let everyone know on the other side of the road to get onboard for the ride back to the tower terminal. Which they did. After the loop around HBC we did continue to stop at the South end of Forums plaza, same as before. The only time a long walk farther South of the Tower was involved was during the Blue Angels show when the Yellow trams were taken out of service.

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Originally Posted by FlyingRon

The biggest complaint I have with the trams has still not been addressed. They went with the completely pointless idea of numbering the tram stops (who cares). The transportation system is still largely cryptic. The maps are useless; the signage is non-existant.

You need to put a sign up at the stop (especially the junction points like the Hangar Cafe and at the Tower) that says something like "Board Here for: Theatre in the Woods, Vintage, Ultralights, Seaplanes." that would get rid of 90% of the confusion and the questions to the tram volunteers.

The traffic cop at the Hangar Cafe junction was nice but ditch the #*@@$ whistle. It's obnoxious.

The other problem is the non-tram shuttles were just a complete screw-up. Nobody could figure out what or when or where they were. Complaints of people waiting for an HOUR with no shuttle trying to head north from Hangar Cafe.

This definitely needs work.

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Yip, Ron is 92.84% correct. The only way to know which tram (excuse me, shuttle) is going where is to view the map before departing for Oshkosh (excuse me, Airventure). I don't care what the signs say, and yes, I do read the signs - for no apparent reason. And, you find out that early in the week only one Red Tram (excuse me, shuttle) goes to HBC. So, once this is figured out, eighteen passengers have to ask the tram (excuse me, shuttle conductor), "Does this tram (excuse... never mind) go to HBC?" Finally, after you figure this new change, you learn that all the trams are starting to go to HBC, only in a different direction. Okay, I really don't care if only one or all of the trams go to HBC or which direction - I'm just happy to see needed changes made on the fly. Hats off to the tram people. You guys are the best. I guess in a perfect world, we would have changing LED destination lights on the trams. But geez, fix the signs.

Never heard the traffic cop whistle. I'm glad about that. I'm also glad I'm not the traffic cop.

I would like to see the awning fabric on the top of the trams match the route color. A huge blue fabric awning and a little stupid faded green flag is, well, odd. But, I also understand that many of these trams run different routes during the day or week. Like I said, in a perfect world...

Finally, Randy, I've heard, "You can tell by the bark" way too many times. Please, get a joke book. Love you, Randy.

LOL - Actually I create a respectably sized repertoire a month before the event for conducting mirth - and vary the routine considerably each day. But the dogwood tree is one that will never die until I do - lol - it is also my passenger barometer for whether to tell any other jokes to that particular group of passengers, and yes I made many runs with little to no humor., only AirVenture details and plane info, which ARE also provided throughout every tram run I conduct.

We stop traffic/pedestrians just fine for airplanes with two guys with stop signs. We don't use whistles (or the horns on the scooters) in regular operation.

From the perspective of a tram conductor, I like the whistle. We are often distracted/engaged with pedestrians and don't realize we need to get rolling NOW. If you're answering someone's question in that moment you're not watching the person in the street with a baton. I respect the opinions of those who don't like it though.

I rode the trams more this year than in years past--getting older, and last year I was so awfully bushed after a week of walking that I decided I had to do something different this year. I almost rented a scooter, but the $70/day charge was too daunting. So with that introduction, and that I introduced myself to Randy (!) and listened to his repertoire, here are my thoughts:

The new red tram route around the west side of HBC is good. The inconsistency about stopping across from the new shower house is not good--it depended on the conductors/drivers, and so it should be a definite stop. Stops at the orange lot and pavilion should continue, too.

Some of the tram conductors need to work on their people skills. I know it must be difficult, fielding the same questions over and over, but being grumpy with the public isn't good, and I did see some of that.

Whether it's a "Randy repertoire" or not isn't as important as a running commentary on where the tram is and where it's going, including not just the stops along the way but what will be seen from the tram. Then as the tram gets to the confluence by the tower, letting the passengers know which tram to take to get where they want to go would be useful. But with due credit to Randy and a couple of other conductors, some joking and tidbits of odd information does add to the overall experience.

The tram signage is truly awful. That needs a complete overhaul, and I join with those who suggested listing what will be accessed by particular trams.

Since I'm rarely in much of a hurry, having to wait for the next tram isn't a bid deal for me. I do think that during "rush hours", it would be helpful and reduce waiting, though, if additional trams could be put in service.

When the trams stop for the evening, it would be good if the buses that take over then had a flag saying which tram they were substituting for (bad English--so sorry!). The signs on the side of the buses (North 40, South 40) don't very well match with the tram colors.

Finally, with all due respect to whomever designs the EAA app, it needs a lot of work. The map is close to totally useless; it should include all of the tram routes in living color, and it should actually show where the user is in order for him/her to figure out where to go (instead, it shows a "drop" in the middle, near the Ford tent).

Cary

The red tram route was ok, but didnt go to the outside parking area,k and the gate in the fence was not directly in line with the parking. Our parking used to be just past the CAP cadets and now it is next to the cemetery, long walk if you dont have that tram.
2 suggestions for the trams. 1. Adults dont need someone constantly cautioning them like one lady on the Blue tram going south who was in anxiety that someone would get off not at the designated stop.
2, The tram should serve, stop where they need to, an example is at the showers in N 40., and pick up if there are people waiting there. Some drivers were nice about this and a few seemed just intent on plowing along on their route and not really trying to serve the passengers, like a race car avoiding a pit stop.
3 The warbird tram will load passengers when they stop at an stop sign and dont mind if someone gets on or off.

Regarding the Red route 'experiment' this year. Unlike last year it was decided to send ALL Red trams along the fence at the back of HBC. First they tried clockwise for about a half a day from the forums and then changed it to counter-clockwise which seemed to work better.

My trams stopped at several unmarked locations once we got back there and we tried to pick up any 'walkers' along the way when possible. The Orange lot pedestrian gate entrance at #35 was moved by EAA Safety and Security (I'm assuming) a block North from where it was earlier in the week to #36. I am told that they had an incident on I think Tuesday where pedestrians came through the gate and then decided to walk down the active runway with planes running on it. That event caused that gate to be chained shut for the duration.
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Per the OFFICIAL printed instruction sheet for shuttle workers given out at our Saturday orientation before the event opens, we are 'supposed' to make stops ONLY at the designated and marked/numbered shuttle stops, unless it is to assist someone with a handicap or very elderly. I cannot fault any conductor who went strictly by the book. Nor would I call out conductors who didn't.

We volunteers will have NO idea how the shuttles/trams will be run next year until our orientation meeting on 07/21/2018.

The problem, for me, was that not all red trams were going to HBC. At first it was only one designated tram, then it seemed random. When I was on one tram and they missed the turn, I asked the conductor and I was told the maps were a mistake and they were not running to HBC. I just chalked it up to first time bugs. The other issue was when running clockwise most of the trams were completely full when they got to HBC. HBC was the first "real" stop after the tram depot, so all of the people heading to warbirds had to go through HBC.

I bet bet next year it will work much better and we all appreciate the hard work you guys do!

BTW, I was heading back to HBC after a function that involved adult beverages the first time I heard the EAA tree joke. I almost fell out of the tram laughing!

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Originally Posted by CHICAGORANDY

Regarding the Red route 'experiment' this year. Unlike last year it was decided to send ALL Red trams along the fence at the back of HBC. First they tried clockwise for about a half a day from the forums and then changed it to counter-clockwise which seemed to work better.

My trams stopped at several unmarked locations once we got back there and we tried to pick up any 'walkers' along the way when possible. The Orange lot pedestrian gate entrance at #35 was moved by EAA Safety and Security (I'm assuming) a block North from where it was earlier in the week to #36. I am told that they had an incident on I think Tuesday where pedestrians came through the gate and then decided to walk down the active runway with planes running on it. That event caused that gate to be chained shut for the duration.
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Per the OFFICIAL printed instruction sheet for shuttle workers given out at our Saturday orientation before the event opens, we are 'supposed' to make stops ONLY at the designated and marked/numbered shuttle stops, unless it is to assist someone with a handicap or very elderly. I cannot fault any conductor who went strictly by the book. Nor would I call out conductors who didn't.

We volunteers will have NO idea how the shuttles/trams will be run next year until our orientation meeting on 07/21/2018.

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Message from an English tram driver (AV 2017) - I agree that the removal of the red route stop s/bound confused a lot of people, The biggest problem however was pedestrians who thought that they had right of way over a tram and refused to move over. You weigh about 180 lbs, my tram weighs considerably more and cannot stop in 3 feet nor turn on a sixpence so please take care and watch/listen for us as we had enough problems with having to watch for 'planes, lorries, motorcycles, delivery vehicles etc.,

I don't know how things are on your side of the pond, but here in the US, pedestrians nearly universally have right of way over vehicles. You need to drive your tractor at a safe speed and prepare to slow or stop to yield to them.

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Originally Posted by shack42

Message from an English tram driver (AV 2017) - I agree that the removal of the red route stop s/bound confused a lot of people, The biggest problem however was pedestrians who thought that they had right of way over a tram and refused to move over. You weigh about 180 lbs, my tram weighs considerably more and cannot stop in 3 feet nor turn on a sixpence so please take care and watch/listen for us as we had enough problems with having to watch for 'planes, lorries, motorcycles, delivery vehicles etc.,

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If pedestrians gave way for every vehicle on the grounds every time, we'd never get anywhere. Too many trams, lorries, motorcycles, delivery vehicles etc.

Common sense and common courtesy when crossing roads works well for everyone. It's not that big of an ordeal to wait a few seconds for a gap in traffic when crossing the roads where the trams/shuttles run.

Dad always told me, it doesn't matter who had the right of way if you're squashed flat.

No matter how wide the road, sharing it with airplanes, vehicles, tractors, shuttle cars, scooters, golf carts, mobility scooters AND a gazillion pedestrians - NONE of whom are paying attention - presents its fair share of problems for them all.

It is perhaps a wonderful miracle that so few accidents happen. I don't recall ever hearing about any shuttle/tram vs pedestrian injury incidents. Not saying they never happen, just that in my experience they don't seem to. A tribute to all the volunteer drivers and conductors out there.

A few years back a tram managed to chase Jim Campbell into a puddle (although I'll admit it was the Vintage tram, I know the driver).

When I was learning to drive (back when Beetles and Chevy Vans were cool)...we were taught that right of way was yours to give, not to take. Now I don't even think they teach the notion of right of way in the United States.

Pedestrians have right of way in a cross walk, not wandering about the middle of the street -- unless that entire street is designated as a pedestrian zone. Does that apply to all the roads during AirVenture? Personally, I think that anyone walking in the middle of Knapp, rather than on one of the paths on either side, is less than being completely responsible (sometime called "stupid.") The area around the main hangars and displays is another matter entirely. I think that in that area pedestrians should be exercising due regard for persons and things around them, but have a reasonable expectation that they can walk freely. Wittman road does not have paths, so it is a matter of sharing the road. -- and exercising common sense, which seems to be increasingly uncommon.

The exception is golf carts. I do not believe that should have any priority or right of way over anyone!

I appreciate that the roads are crowded during AV - I mentioned the pedesrian problem because many of them, especially the youngsters, seemd to be more interested in their mobiles/tablets than actually trying to be aware of traffic. As to manoeuvering - pedestrians can stop, change direction or move off in one step (18") Trams, weighing full about 2 1/2 tons (metric, short, long - take your pick) cannot. Us drivers have our passengers to think about. Try stopping a 2 ton 4 x 4 at 7 mph (our speed at most) and see how long it takes to stop. I consider myself a very experienced driver having driven just about everything from a 49cc moped to 5 ton lorries, aircraft tugs with 'plane attached, artillery tractors with limber and 25 pdr howitzer and buses, the only vehicles missing are tracked vehicles and artics (semis). I've also driven around Elkhart Lake.