Tram use

[skyfixer8]

Any staff on here know how the trams will be riding people ? I have asked Tram chair, bur sketchy info so far. As a driver, just curious how the hoards are going to react .

[Bill Berson]

I have been fast walking 1.5 miles daily to get in shape to avoid the trams. I don't know how fast the trams are (anyone know?), but I think I can walk faster considering wait time. Especially if the trams go by full.

[Airmutt]

I’m with you, I started walking about 2 months ago. I’m more into distance than speed. Up to 3,5, or 7 miles depending upon the time of day, weather, and generally how I feel. Really trying to catch the afternoon heat to get acclimatized. I hate just standing in line for a ride so I guess I’ll be skipping the trams and the shuttle bus back to parking.

[CHICAGORANDY]

If the "Z's" don't know for sure yet? Someone in EAA ArVenture upper management will need to respond. I 'suspect' that no final decisions have been made as we all wait & see how many more Americans wise up and get vaccinated bringing the infection rates down enough to ease all the restrictions.

[robert l]

I think asking someone if they have had the Covid vaccine is a HIPAA Violation.
Bob

[rwanttaja]

I think asking someone if they have had the Covid vaccine is a HIPAA Violation.
Bob

No. HIPAA covers health care providers and insurance companies only.

Basically, HIPAA’s laws govern how certain entities handle patients’ private healthcare information.

What entities fall under HIPAA’s privacy rules? According to the Department for Health and Human Services (HHS), they are:

- Health care providers (including doctors, clinics, psychologists, dentists, chiropractors, nursing homes, or pharmacies)
- Health plans (including health insurance companies, HMOs, company health plans, and government programs that pay for healthcare, such as Medicare, Medicaid, and the military and veterans health care programs)
- Healthcare clearinghouses (including entities that process nonstandard health information they receive from another entity into a standard (i.e., standard electronic format or data content), or vice versa.)

Private businesses like restaurants or grocery stores are not subject to HIPAA’s rules, so they can ask customers entering about their vaccination status.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/businesses-vaccinated-covid19/

Ron Wanttaja

[robert l]

No. HIPAA covers health care providers and insurance companies only.

Basically, HIPAA’s laws govern how certain entities handle patients’ private healthcare information.

What entities fall under HIPAA’s privacy rules? According to the Department for Health and Human Services (HHS), they are:

- Health care providers (including doctors, clinics, psychologists, dentists, chiropractors, nursing homes, or pharmacies)
- Health plans (including health insurance companies, HMOs, company health plans, and government programs that pay for healthcare, such as Medicare, Medicaid, and the military and veterans health care programs)
- Healthcare clearinghouses (including entities that process nonstandard health information they receive from another entity into a standard (i.e., standard electronic format or data content), or vice versa.)

Private businesses like restaurants or grocery stores are not subject to HIPAA’s rules, so they can ask customers entering about their vaccination status.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/businesses-vaccinated-covid19/

Ron Wanttaja

Well color me, "NOT Vaccinated" !
Bob

[Bill Berson]

I got the vaccine so I am not concerned about covid. But I remain concerned about catching a common cold or flu because of close interaction. I caught a common cold on the airline to Airventure 2019 and it wasn't much fun. Then apparently caught a different cold on the airline heading home. So two weeks sick.
I didn't catch a cold all of 2020 and don't know anyone that did so there seems some benefit to wearing a mask to prevent colds.
I tried to cover my face on the return flight in 2019 but didn't have a "face covering". Never even heard of such a thing. It wasn't the custom for anyone to wear a mask with a cold then. But I hope it becomes a custom when traveling with a cold to wear a mask. Might be a custom in Asia.

[FlyingRon]

Yep, one thing can be said about the increased hygeine (masks, handwashing, distancing) efforts is that a lot of other than covid stuff went down (seasonal flu, colds, ...). My daughter notes fewer illnesses brought home by her kids from school (serious precautions in place at this private school because the state threatens closing if there is an outbreak there).

[troy_m]

Not sure about the trams, but I know the shuttles that run from the UWO dorms will be limited to the seating capacity of the bus. No standing, everyone will need to be seated. And unless the federal mask mandate is ended before then, masks will be required.

[Bill Berson]

Biden's federal mask mandate was only federal workers or federal property, as far as I know. There is no mask mandate but a mask can't hurt on the trams.

[ssteve1]

Biden's federal mask mandate was only federal workers or federal property, as far as I know. There is no mask mandate but a mask can't hurt on the trams.

I've heard some believe the mask is nothing more than a petri dish. Okay, wash your mask, buy a new one, whatever. Most states have made it optional to wear a mask in most places. But, Bill is right, "a mask can't hurt." They don't weigh much. They aren't heavy. Just wear one. For myself. I think I'm just a little bit happier knowing people can only see a small part of my face. And, I'm positive other people are way way happier by not seeing all of my face.
Wear a mask.

[troy_m]

Biden's federal mask mandate was only federal workers or federal property, as far as I know. There is no mask mandate but a mask can't hurt on the trams.


Unfortunately it doesn't apply to just those, it also includes most forms of public transportation.

https://www.transit.dot.gov/TransitMaskUp

[Bill Berson]

Unfortunately it doesn't apply to just those, it also includes most forms of public transportation.

https://www.transit.dot.gov/TransitMaskUp

Then it applies to trams. Extended to September 13 2021.
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Mask-Order-CDC_GMTF_01-29-21-p.pdf

[robert l]

Then it applies to trams. Extended to September 13 2021.
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/Mask-Order-CDC_GMTF_01-29-21-p.pdf

So Trams are concidered public transportation ?

[robert l]

I've heard some believe the mask is nothing more than a petri dish. Okay, wash your mask, buy a new one, whatever. Most states have made it optional to wear a mask in most places. But, Bill is right, "a mask can't hurt." They don't weigh much. They aren't heavy. Just wear one. For myself. I think I'm just a little bit happier knowing people can only see a small part of my face. And, I'm positive other people are way way happier by not seeing all of my face.
Wear a mask.

I've always been led to believe that we build immunity by being exposed .
Bob

[rwanttaja]

Looking up "Public Transportation", I find this definition: "Buses, trains, subways, and other forms of transportation that charge set fares, run on fixed routes, and are available to the public...." By that definition, trams would not be considered public transportation (e.g., no fares). Buses to and from the dorms might be.

In fact, EAA could probably argue that the trams were not public transportation in that they are not, in fact, available to the general public but only to the addendees of the event.

[EDIT: Bill Berson pointed out I was in error. The rule covers "conveyances," which should apply to the trams.]

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

The order doesn't say public.
It says any conveyance operator.

[rwanttaja]

I've always been led to believe that we build immunity by being exposed .

I believe you build immunity by being infected,not merely exposed. That's how vaccines generally work...the stuck-ee is given a low-grade version of the disease, and the infection triggers the natural responses of the body to generate the appropriate antibodies. That way, if later exposed to a significant amount of the virus, the body is already ready for it. That's why folks get a reaction to the shot itself, it's causing the body's resources to fight back against a relatively denatured opponent. That's what takes the time and care to develop a vaccine; coming up with a dose that provides the patient with protection without giving him or her a dangerous case of the disease itself.

This ain't new.

Smallpox used to kill thousands of people, but if you survived the infection, you never got it again. In the late 1700s, Edward Jenner discovered that people who caught cowpox (a relatively mild, easily survivable disease) also developed an immunity to smallpox. So he deliberately infected folks with cowpox. Not so lucky with most diseases, so the scientists have to spend a lot effort developing a relatively safe version of the disease itself.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

The order doesn't say public.
It says any conveyance operator.


Yes, you're right.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

EAA may have some exemption for ventilation?
EAA statement on website is:
Where possible, EAA is adding shuttles and buses to accommodate higher anticipated needs, but there are no distancing requirements for shuttles. We are asking to have bus windows open to increase ventilation inside the vehicles. We also recommend wearing masks when distancing is not possible aboard those shuttles.

[Mayhemxpc]

I carefully went over the order Bill so helpfully linked and then the subsequent CDC guidances publishers March 23 and May 13. Open air shuttles are never addressed and there is some room for debate as to whether such conveyances are covered by the CDC order. For one, the March 23 and May 13 guidance only refers to "public transportation." Anyway, as I posted earlier, there will be at least one more regulation or explanatory guidance published between now and then. But if we wind up having to put a man on to get on the shuttle, it shouldn't be a big deal.

By the way, according to the CDC rules, military grade chemical/biological/radiological protective masks "do not fulfill the requirements of the order" mask-travel-guidance.html (https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/masks/mask-travel-guidance.html)

[Sirota]

At the risk of getting shot down... My understanding is that masks reduce (not prevent) the transfer of Covid (and other viruses) FROM the person wearing the mask TO those around him/her. As a courtesy to our flying family, I would hope everyone would wear a mask in crowded situations (trams, buses, exhibition halls). I'll leave whether it works or not for others to debate, but what could it hurt? Vaccines prevent MOST transmission but not 100%. I don't plan on wearing a mask when I'm wandering around the flight line, but I do plan on wearing one in crowded areas and hope others will too.

[FlyingRon]

Goes both ways to various extents. I've been wearing N95 since I got back from Australia in March 2020. Those are fairly effective at protecting the person wearing it. I was fortunate that I had a couple of boxes in my workshop (I'm sensitive to wood dust) and my wife had bought some for our Australia trip fearing that there would still be smoke issues there from pervasive wild fires (fortunately, the rains had put that out by the time we arrived). Even after donating over half my stash to local healthcare workers early on, I had enough to last me until the supply chain opened up again.

[rwanttaja]

A mask can't hurt??
Science says otherwise.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/8/4344/htm?fbclid-lwAR1f9-_uWS86wZcb_9cDB2A56DMaltUf02lrUolPoMh5EHL6zR94nTj9 bqo
Medical professionals have been wearing face masks for hours on end for a century or more. And *now* it’s discovered to be harmful?

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

A mask can't hurt??
Science says otherwise.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/8/4344/htm?fbclid-lwAR1f9-_uWS86wZcb_9cDB2A56DMaltUf02lrUolPoMh5EHL6zR94nTj9 bqo

Publication described as a "Pretend Journal":

This past year, when an undergraduate biology student at the University of the Fraser Valley approached dean of science Lucy Lee for $2,000 to publish a paper in an academic journal, Dr. Lee had immediate concerns about the request. She’d had a bad experience with the journal in question, the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, while doing a review for the publication. She discovered a lack of rigour in some of the journal’s articles, was alarmed at its many retractions and corrections, and had concerns with the journal’s practice of publishing an “acknowledgement” issue with a very long list of reviewers to make it look credible.

The publisher, Multidisciplinary Digital Publishing Institute (MDPI), churns out nearly 160 scholarly journals a year, many of them of mediocre quality, according to Jeffrey Beall, an associate professor and librarian at the University of Colorado Denver, and one of the world’s leading experts on what he calls “predatory” open access publishing. Each week, MDPI and other questionable publishers hound Dr. Lee by email, asking her to review submissions that she considers shoddy. Mr. Beall has called this particular environmental publication a “pretend journal.” So when Dr. Lee next saw the biology student, she alerted her to the potential problems and redirected her to more credible scholarly publications, such as FACETS, a Canadian open access journal.

Predatory and mediocre journals are based on the model of open access publishing in which authors pay fees to have their work published online. However, unlike legitimate journals, they bombard academics with spam emails, accept almost all submissions and overstate the rigour of their peer-review processes. They also often conveniently neglect to mention publication fees until late in the process.

https://www.universityaffairs.ca/features/feature-article/beware-academics-getting-reeled-scam-journals/

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

A mask can't hurt??
Science says otherwise.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/18/8/4344/htm?fbclid-lwAR1f9-_uWS86wZcb_9cDB2A56DMaltUf02lrUolPoMh5EHL6zR94nTj9 bqo

I meant a simple comfortable porous cloth face covering not the N95 in the article. The N95 is much more restrictive for industrial areas and heavy sawdust etc. Not for sick people.

[rwanttaja]

Just because something was done hours on end for a century does not qualify it as safe or effective.
It does call into question as to how there are NO studies to indicate masks are bad. Until mask wear becomes a political issues, then "poof"... there's a report in a "journal."


Thank God physicians stopped bleeding sick people ,even though it was a long established, accepted practice.
Damn straight. And *that's* the value of science. When the evidence is overwhelming, science changes its mind. Bleeding WAS once a standard treatment. It isn't anymore, because research proved it harmful.

Science doesn't stick with the past because of tradition or politics (though both can make it hard to implement change). The theory that a meteor caused the extinction of the dinosaurs is a good example. The guy was laughed at, initially. But once more and more evidence was collected, the scientific community came into line.

Though I figure Steve Martin illustrated it best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edIi6hYpUoQ


Ron "Say, who's the barber here" Wanttaja

[troy_m]

Not sure about the trams, but I know the shuttles that run from the UWO dorms will be limited to the seating capacity of the bus. No standing, everyone will need to be seated. And unless the federal mask mandate is ended before then, masks will be required.

Just trying to provide some information based on what I know, and look at what it gets me! Geez! Whether you agree with/like masks or not, per the federal presidential order, this is currently the requirement on any form of mass transportation (commercial flights, trains, local transit buses). Since the shuttle from UWO campus to AirVenture grounds is operated by the entity that operates the transit system in Oshkosh, this order would also apply to that shuttle. Certainly I hope it would change prior to AirVenture, but not holding my breath! Getting back to the trams (which is the subject of this thread), I don't think it would apply there.

[robert l]

:thumbsup:
Bob

[skyfixer8]

As a driver / conductor, looking from someone from staff to answer, when at the Tower turn point, and people like seniors, disabled, families with tired kids are looking to get to bus park to get to museum or parking, what are we supposed to tell them ? Start walking or is there going to be some way for them to get there ? Doing away with green route is going to cause problems unless EAA has it figured out and not telling anyone,

[CHICAGORANDY]

As far as I know EAA has opted out of providing any transport for anyone To/From the Bus Park area. A HUGE mistake in my honest and experienced opinion. I am bracing for some sincerely "unhappy" commentary from the AirVenture guests on this and perhaps one or two more of the changes to the Trams I'll be conducting next month. IMHO the 'New Blue' route is going to create more challenges than problems it is meant to solve.

But like you I'm just along for the volunteering ride and nobody has asked for MY input. They asked the young geniuses from Northwestern.

[Kevin O'Halloran]

the same geniuses that came up with "Just in time ordering" for manufactures--thats work out great for truck plants

[MEdwards]

Has anybody actually read the Northwestern study? Did they specifically recommend eliminating the Green route? If so, did they state a reason? Perhaps I missed the discussion in an earlier thread.

My bet is it was the security people who nixed the Green route. Somebody jumped the queue, bypassing the Security Theatre bag check at the bus park. Or there were so many complaints about same that they decided to show them (us) who’s boss.

[CHICAGORANDY]

There always remains the unlikely "possibility" that if enough guests complain the Green route 'could' be quite easiliy reinstated. We have trams, we have volunteers, and I doubt they threw away the green pennants?

[Airmutt]

I understand that one of the changes made to reroute traffic was because the city was always on EAA’s case about the traffic snafu at Exit 116 & Hwy 44. Frontage road is going to become one big parking lot as folks que up to park. No one in the study seemed to recognize that paying for parking was the bottleneck. Perhaps EAA should have prepaid vs cash parking areas???
I think time is gonna tell whether bussing people from the bus park to the outer parking lots will be successful or popular. Personally I’m unhappy as I liked to be able to access my vehicle during the day so I always arrived early enough to make it into the former blue lot. Not gonna happen this year.
I don’t see EAA reinstating the Green route on the fly. I don’t think it’s in their DNA or operational mindset. Besides if they did it would mean the whole NWU study was flawed??? Just sayin.

[skyfixer8]

I am still waiting for someone from staff to answer about the green route.

[FlyingRon]

I don't think the trams much entered into the Hwy 44 backup disasters. Mostly that was because of swampy areas and the inability to park people (mostly campers) in a timely fashion at peak arrival times. By the time the Green Tram would be in full swing, most people were set.

[L-188]

Not planning on attending, but it would be fun to see someone trying to enforce any sort of social distancing/ mask wearing protocol on the average Oshkosh attendee. Does anyone know if open carry will be allowed? asking for a friend.

[rwanttaja]

Not planning on attending, but it would be fun to see someone trying to enforce any sort of social distancing/ mask wearing protocol on the average Oshkosh attendee.

Masks/Social Distancing not required if vaccinated. If not vaccinated, they are recommended, not required.

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/airventure-covid-updates

About the same policies as S-n-F. I've heard mask/distancing was spotty there, and there doesn't appear to have been a post-show breakout.



Does anyone know if open carry will be allowed? asking for a friend.

Firearms, open or concealed carry, are prohibited.

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/about-eaa-airventure-oshkosh/policies/prohibited-items

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

Participated in the weekend work party and didn’t see anyone masked and social distancing pretty much didn’t happen. We worked shoulder to shoulder, stood in the chow line and chatted as normal, ate our meals at the same tables, etc.
The crew I worked with prepped for paint 18 public use cel phone charging stations (more to come) and completed the painting and assembly of 300 hand sanitation stations. Unfortunately the effects of site sitting idle for almost two years is obvious. EAA lost a large number of trees due to ash borer infestation, it also appears that the ground hogs are less than pleased with all the new human activity on the grounds. :) The tram units are parked around the site, many with flat tires. Four weeks to go and a ton of work to be done.

[krw920]

As a driver / conductor, looking from someone from staff to answer, when at the Tower turn point, and people like seniors, disabled, families with tired kids are looking to get to bus park to get to museum or parking, what are we supposed to tell them ? Start walking or is there going to be some way for them to get there ? Doing away with green route is going to cause problems unless EAA has it figured out and not telling anyone, You do know they moved the tower turn point about 2 blocks west from where it was, don't you?

[MEdwards]

You do know they moved the tower turn point about 2 blocks west from where it was, don't you?Just saw the map. Don’t think that will help much with the issue skyfixer8 was talking about.
Seems like the yellow route will be boring for the tram volunteers. Unless they enjoy dodging clueless pedestrians or barking at people trying to jump on and off the trams midstream.

[L-188]

Masks/Social Distancing not required if vaccinated. If not vaccinated, they are recommended, not required.

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/airventure-covid-updates

About the same policies as S-n-F. I've heard mask/distancing was spotty there, and there doesn't appear to have been a post-show breakout.




Firearms, open or concealed carry, are prohibited.

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/about-eaa-airventure-oshkosh/policies/prohibited-items

Ron Wanttaja
my comment about open carry was meant as satire/sarcasm, in retrospect, I apologize if any were offended.

[skyfixer8]

Saw two places that are going to be trouble on the map. Yellow and red tram meeting is at one of the busier intesections, should have left it as it was.
Other is the replacement of Vintage tram stop. Should have left it after the turn onto Vern. Gonne have people jumping off as we slow for the turn.
Wish they had actually talked to the volunteers instead of listening to a bunch of diinterested kids who weren t paying attention from what I saw.

[CHICAGORANDY]

The unfortunate elimination of the Hangar Cafe terminal to create a 'New Blue' route will IMHO also mean loads of angry would-be passengers seeing nothing but full trams at every stop.... and as we all know, if nobody gets off the tram, nobody can get on the tram. The mid-point terminal at least gave everyone a fair chance at a ride. And also just this geezer conductor's experienced opinion, the new VERY shortened Yellow route makes almost no sense at all.

I too fully expect passengers will be jumping on and off my trams while they are in motion and that increases the possibilty for some serious injuries to those guests But hey.... nobody asked me so I accept the reality that my opinion and experience regarding tram operations is unwanted.

[Bill Berson]

Consultants are hired to deflect blame from decisions by leaders that cause poor outcome.

[robert l]

my comment about open carry was meant as satire/sarcasm, in retrospect, I apologize if any were offended.

I got it L-188, your sarcasm wasn't wasted, I seldom do open carry, I don't want people to know I'm packin heat ! And I respect all signage that prohibits C C.
Bob

[robert l]

Consultants are hired to deflect blame from decisions by leaders that cause poor outcome.

Word !
Bob

[rwanttaja]

my comment about open carry was meant as satire/sarcasm, in retrospect, I apologize if any were offended.

Sarcasm has to be done carefully online, as the non-verbal cues that indicate you're kidding just aren't there.

In person, a humorous comment made in person is accompanied by actions to accentuate the fact that they are kidding. One might wink, roll your eyes, slap the other person on the back, or even chuckle. These don't come across, on the Internet. In your mind, you know you're kidding, but readers have no way of knowing you're winking at your computer monitor.

This is how emoticons got came about. Way back about 40 years ago, when I was getting started on USENET, I was told to use the "Tongue-in-Cheek" sign to indicate humor... a colon, followed by a hyphen and a close-parentheses: :-) . Folks started calling it a rotated smiley face; eventually, it just got shortened to "smiley" and devices started generating them as discrete graphics. :) Lost the whole tongue-in-cheek vibe, though.

There are dangers when NOT making your intent clear when you're kidding. If you post, "I hate all [insert ethnic group]" without any indication you're kidding, you don't have much of a defense if people take you seriously. Trolls often claim AFTERWARDS that their comment was meant in jest...even when it wasn't. So there's not a lot of sympathy out there.

Sounds like it's time for me to re-post "The Rules of the Internet." See #5 and #9.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Rules of the Internet – August 2015
By Ron Wanttaja

1. You will never get the last word. No matter how many arguments you make, no matter what insults or threats you post, someone will always come back with a response. When you’ve made your point, or it’s apparent the other person(s) aren’t going to be swayed by your arguments, stop.

2. Thread drift happens. Your topic is going to morph well beyond what you can imagine. Accept it and don’t freak out.

3. Posting anonymously is perfectly acceptable. However, the only respect you will earn is for your demonstrated *knowledge*. Anyone can claim to be an airline pilot or lawyer, but if you show you know the law or a particular airliner’s systems, people will treat you more seriously.

4. Your anonymous “identity” is not *you*. If someone is insulting your online persona, they’re not insulting you, personally. But there are a lot of smart people online; your true identity may not remain a secret.

5. Keep in mind that some people rely on giving non-verbal clues to show what they’re thinking, and may not realize that the *lack* of such clues may cause others to interpret their statements in a darker way. In person, “What kind of idiot are you?” accompanied by a grin and a slap on the back is easily recognized as being jocular. Yet the same words in an online message may raise hackles, since it lacks the non-verbal cues.

6. No one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to continue an unpleasant online discussion. If you stop, few will notice.

7. You will be judged by what *you* say, not what people say about you. Someone can rant and spew insults about you, but if you keep your head, remain reasonable, and don’t reciprocate, most observers will have a negative view of the other individual. Take the high road; more will respect you.

8. Humor is the best shield, but only when it’s used to deflect away from you, not towards your adversary. A pun or a joke on the situation, not directed at a person or group, shows you’re cool and may get some grudging respect from your adversary.

9. Sarcasm is not humor. Not only is there the probability of escalating the flames, but you stand a good chance of looking like a real idiot if people don't realize your message as intended as sarcasm.

10. Finally, the most important rule of the Internet: There ARE no rules to the Internet. It is anarchy; there’s nothing that compels action in anyone. The only behavior you can control is your own.


Ron Wanttaja

[L-188]

my comment about open carry was meant as satire/sarcasm, in retrospect, I apologize if any were offended.

I got it L-188, your sarcasm wasn't wasted, I seldom do open carry, I don't want people to know I'm packin heat ! And I respect all signage that prohibits C C.
Bob
Thanks for the comeback. In these trying times, I suspect even Oshkosh won't be immune to pushing and shoving, shouting matches, etc. hence my decision not to attend. I've been attending off and on since the 70's been a volunteer, and I even have a 5 digit member number. But everything and everywhere is political these days and Oshkosh won't be any different. It was always a place that I felt everyone was welcome, If you loved airplanes, you were part of the gang. We were all cool kids so to speak. But things have changed. That's all I'll say. the mods don't have to get involved, I suspect comments will be mostly of the good riddance variety and I get it. Still love airplanes, I'll worship from afar. Here's hoping for a safe and hopefully dry and cool convention.

[skyranger]

Many good comments here from experienced Tram volunteers . Sounds like I better get my 73 year old in shape for all the walking . Every year the tams seem to get worse .

[robert l]

:thumbsup:

[robert l]

L-188 :thumbsup:
Bob

[BJC]

Not planning on attending, but it would be fun to see someone trying to enforce any sort of social distancing/ mask wearing protocol on the average Oshkosh attendee. Does anyone know if open carry will be allowed? asking for a friend.

... my comment about open carry was meant as satire/sarcasm, in retrospect, I apologize if any were offended.
I thought that your comment was good satire; no apology required here.


BJC

[CHICAGORANDY]

8945

[Airmutt]

In reality the whole tram system needs to be rethought. When I first attended we used terms like Oshkosh and Convention. The tram system as I recall was for the mobility challenged to see the planes but it was a much smaller event in those days. Somewhere it morphed into a transportation system. EAA is trying to eliminate congestion points on and around the site. Unfortunately improvements usually translate into cash and without an AV2020 the revenue stream was interrupted. Someone needs to make an adult decision as what is the purpose of the trams. If it’s to move people then they need to determine if the trams are the best solution vs ??? Whatever the decision they need to commit money and resources to make it happen. 2021 is a gonna be a make the best of what we’ve got year.

[CHICAGORANDY]

For the 1 week event that ArVenture is, I don't see EAA investing massive resources into the trams, though I DO think they are a quick & easy way to transport folks, especially those with limited mobility, over short distances vs say the school buses which are painfully slow to load/unload as well as being large, long cumbersome vehicles running on many of the crowded narrow streets at the site.

[skyfixer8]

If the EAA folks would actually consult the chairmen / women running the various sections during Airventure, they would have a better idea on how to improve things. Talk to the people actually doing the work instead of relying on a bunch of disinterested college kids looking for credit for an assignment they could care less about.

[CHICAGORANDY]

If the EAA folks would actually consult the chairmen / women running the various sections during Airventure, they would have a better idea on how to improve things. Talk to the people actually doing the work instead of relying on a bunch of disinterested college kids looking for credit for an assignment they could care less about.

+100!

[steve]

I've worked with many contractors over the course of my engineering career. For too many, their motto was, "Out the door before my s**t hits the floor." In other words, they are long gone and don't have to clean up the mess.

[krw920]

I was reviewing the grounds map today, and I have a hunch that they will be routing all foot traffic, to and from the bus park, to the main gate. The pedestrian entrance via the gate due east of the bus park may be limited if not restricted. Again, that is just my hunch with nothing official behind it. I only say this because all the shuttle busses from the new Gray lot will be dropping off and picking up at the bus park.

[L-188]

If the EAA folks would actually consult the chairmen / women running the various sections during Airventure, they would have a better idea on how to improve things. Talk to the people actually doing the work instead of relying on a bunch of disinterested college kids looking for credit for an assignment they could care less about.
I knew I forgot something. Well said!! I've heard the same sentiment from more than one division staff member. The ghost of Rod Hightower still walks the halls in some areas

[Mayhemxpc]

:thumbsup: for Randy's meme. Hope to be able to find a seat on one of your trams, Randy.

[Mayhemxpc]

If the EAA folks would actually consult the chairmen / women running the various sections during Airventure, they would have a better idea on how to improve things. Talk to the people actually doing the work instead of relying on a bunch of disinterested college kids looking for credit for an assignment they could care less about.

*Sigh* I have contracted for studies done by undergraduates (graduate students aren't much better). By the time the work was "complete" I felt like I should have charged the school for teaching fees. "Have you thought about...?", "Did you talk to...?", "Explain to me where you got this data...", "No, Wikipedia is not an acceptable source." That said, some "professional" research institutes aren't much better.

[skyfixer8]

Wonder whose idea it was to encourage chapters to do massive land grab at Scholler. Also, from the way they were doing that, I think rules need to go back to the 20 x 30 camping area dimensions. There is going to be a lot of roped off and unused space from what I saw Friday and Saturday. IMHO

[Airmutt]

Hey Skyfixer, Well I was there on Wednesday and I know that the space reserved for the chapters was done by the Chapter Office. Chapters are granted the “privilege” of requesting camping space in advance The designated areas you saw are getting parceled out to the various requesting chapters this week. Each chapter represents multiple campsites. I think it’s a fair process. Not all chapters live within immediate driving distance like the land grab types that can show up at 0200 opening day.

[ssteve1]

Okay, Ill say it.

EAA hates HATES H A T E S SOS Brothers. Remember the lawsuit a few years ago? Let's make 'em walk another mile for that beer.
EAA is going to funnel EVERY SINGLE person through the givemeyourmoney gate. No more hopping a tram at the bus park and slinking into the turn around. Now we are all paying.

Excuse me while I go reread Ron Wanttaj's rules of the internet. Obviously, I need to do so.

[krw920]

Okay, Ill say it.

EAA hates HATES H A T E S SOS Brothers. Remember the lawsuit a few years ago? Let's make 'em walk another mile for that beer.
EAA is going to funnel EVERY SINGLE person through the givemeyourmoney gate. No more hopping a tram at the bus park and slinking into the turn around. Now we are all paying.

Excuse me while I go reread Ron Wanttaj's rules of the internet. Obviously, I need to do so.

So you have been fraudulently entering AirVenture for how long?

[ssteve1]

So you have been fraudulently entering AirVenture for how long?

Never mind. Forum moderators get the last word.

[skyfixer8]

Wonder if any staff monitors here can tell me what we supposed to do with people at tower turn point for trams when asked how to get to bus park since no longer green tram ? Especially handicapped, older and familys with tired kids wanting to get to kid venture. Just ignore or is Kobussen gonna be there for us ?

[CHICAGORANDY]

Can't say I'm looking forward to those anticipated 'discussions' with would-be tram riders who I suspect will be quite disappointed this year. I have a bad knee myself and am NOT able to make any forced marches, so the Museum and Pioneer airport will be off my visit list for 2021 too. Ah yes... the "Golden Years". Turns out they're mostly urine and rust.

[skyfixer8]

And I thought I was the only one with those problems, plus LOL