Landing Gear Lessons

[Bill Greenwood]

There's a good way to lower gear as you come to the pattern, not fool proof but close. Do we need this? Recently 2 ATP? CFI landed a Bonanza with full flaps down and gear fully up. And yes they knew GUMPS and had a checklist, they got distracted.
Let's simplify to one item, the only one required to make the landing, silly as it may sound is the landing gear. MAKE IT THE FIRST ITEM YOU DO WHEN COMING TO THE RUNWAY OR PATTERN, aS YOU TURN ONTO DOWWIND, LOWER THE GEAR AND VERIFY IT GREEN LIGTHS DOWN.
What if you don't go on downwind, like flying an instrument approach? Still, 5 miles out or 3 miles or wherever, iAF, lower the landing gear, AND DO THIS BEFORE YOU DO PARTIAL FLAPS OR PITOT HEAT OR ANYTHING ELSE
So what happened to the G in Gumps representing gas? If I am going cross country before I descend from alitiude, I switch to fullest fuel tank, I do not want to be head down and doing this in the midddle of an ILS nor a 800 agl on downwind, And I dont run the tank down to the last few gallons.
As I go down to the pattern I have only that one thing to concentrate on , lowering the gear when my speed allows and verify. I have caught it 3 times when not actually down , no green lights. . Once gear is down I can check correct approach speed or other items like prop forward or boost pump on if needed, and flaps as needed. only the gear is critical, less you are landing on a carrier.
PS and for taxi once again only the gear down is critical. You can even forget the pitot cover and it will taxi just fine or flaps up or down.

Some military training bases will remind the pilot to check the gear, always the gear not any other item from checklist. And larger planes may lower flaps to slow to gear speed, that's another subject.

[Bill Greenwood]

A solution proposed in the Bonanza case was to retrofit a 2nd warning kit, which alerts you if you lower flaps with gear up. Well enough, but why not just leave flaps and anything else alone UNITL YOU HAVE LOWERED GEAR AND VERIFYED IT DOWN!! Why try to make anything else primary like partial flaps?

[BusyLittleShop]

If I ever owned a aircraft with retractable gear I'd install Delrin
crash strips down the length of the belly and wings just in case I
fail or the gear fails to lower and lock...

[Mayhemxpc]

Of course gear first is a great idea, except when it isn’t. Some airplanes with relatively low Vlo pretty much need to drop the first increment of flaps to be able to slow down to lower the gear. I find that I am usually in that position when sliding into the pattern. The same was true when I flew an early model Baron. There is always the landing gear horn. They are designed to be pretty annoying. (I got distracted from lowering the gear because of the horn blaring at me.)

for Larry: the O-2A is equipped with skids on the bottom in case of a gear up landing. It even has lifting eyes on the top to pick it up again! Props and engines are still goners.

So Bill, your sequence is, slow down, gear down, then everything else. Who can argue with that?

[rwanttaja]

Being that my gear is down and glued, I've got no dog in this hunt. Bill's suggestion sounds reasonable. However, you do see some cases where folks retract the gear on a go-around, and forget to re-extend it.

The downside is if a lazy pilot takes the mindset that "I always lower the gear first thing" and they don't bother to recheck. It's still important to be checking position all the way around in the pattern, no matter where the handle is actuated.

I've always thought dummy gear switches should be installed in all GA trainers.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

My instructor drilled in to me that not making an audible callout on short final was a fatal sin. Even when I have had engine failures, I called did that check (the first time I might have otherwise not had the gear down).

[rwanttaja]

My instructor drilled in to me that not making an audible callout on short final was a fatal sin. Even when I have had engine failures, I called did that check (the first time I might have otherwise not had the gear down).

Best story I heard along those lines was from a guy who would point at the gear indicator lights, and loudly announce, "I've got three green lights."

One day a pilot passenger said, "No, you don't." Again, a case where things had become automatic...he said the words, but didn't actually examine the lights. His passenger saved him from a gear-up.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

My favorite was my instructor was flying with a student once and all the way down final the gear horn was beeping away. He suggested that if the student advanced the throttle a bit that beeping would go away. The student did. Buzz always had more patience in letting students near gear up than I would. My wife was about to do it when she was doing her Navion transition. I knew he was going to wait until the last moment but it bugged hte hell out of me.

Yes, doing things "automatically" will get you in toruble, but I know guys who methodically drop the gear abeam the numbers or at the FAF and never check it again who get screwed if something interrupts to those checks. Rechecking your GUMPS on final while not fool proof is a good last minute check of everything.

[Airmutt]

Back in the early 80s I had the unfortunate opportunity to watch a P-3 at NAS Barbers Point go gear up after executing a go-around for an F-4 that had declared low fuel status. During the go-around the crew had raised the gear and the Flight Engineer had punched off the gear warning horn. They made it all the way around the pattern right up to the point of impact before they realized their mistake. I always re-run GUMP On final and report 3 Down & Locked.

[melann]

Being that my gear is down and glued, I've got no dog in this hunt. Bill's suggestion sounds reasonable. However, you do see some cases where folks retract the gear on a go-around, and forget to re-extend it.
The downside is if a lazy pilot takes the mindset that "I always lower the gear first thing" and they don't bother to recheck. It's still important to be checking position all the way around in the pattern, no matter where the handle is actuated.
I've always thought dummy gear switches should be installed in all GA trainers.
Ron Wanttaja

When I built my RV-6 in the early '90s, I installed a gear switch, horn, and light. The switch was on the flap handle. If I pulled one notch of flaps with the gear up, it hollered at me. In over 27 years of flying that airplane, I NEVER landed "gear-up"!

[Bill Greenwood]

I am doing "gear down" and VERIFFY as the first thing in the pattern or near it. The last thing is on short final, when you are not another item is to make sure "gear down green" and then I also check prop forward. And you sure dont want to cheange fuel tanks on short final. If its not right then go around and do it over. dONT rush the go around or back into the pattern, might even have to go up and hold or crank the gear down.
I have had "not down" 3 tmes at least. Once was actually down, and 1. I had to crank down,
Both times due to shorted wire, firts time, Spit gear was down but no green light, next time T34 gear would not go down electically due to a bad wire at the swithch in the REAR SEAT, and had bo be cranked. Thank Lord that I had learned these checks well enough as a s student. I watched a friend land his P51 gear up because he had put down 20* flaps first for a low pass and never the gear. AND NOT AT ALL THE ORDER THE PILOT MANUEL CALLS FOR , aLL p-51, Spit, T-6 etc call for gear down BEFORE ANY FLAPS.

[Mayhemxpc]

In the Pakistan International Airlines crash a few months ago, the crew did lower the landing gear handle, but the plane was flying faster the Vlo and the gear never came down. The warning chime sounded all the way to touchdown. Mechanically moving the handle and audio warnings are sometimes not enough. Of course, if they used the pattern Bill recommends, which I restated as SLOW DOWN, GEAR DOWN, then everything else, the result would have been different. CRM was AWOL in that event. This only stresses the important of CRM, even in single pilot operations. (I think that is a restatement of Bill's OP)

[Bill Greenwood]

I dont know airline gear speeds but here are some fast gen av piston planes that I do know. Bonanza 154 knots, good!, T-34 only 112 knots. P 51 150 knots? , flaps can be 20 % at 275 knots. Spit IX with one of the best basic systems, 136 knots and flaps which are either up or down. P-51 has 5 notches of flaps including last at 50*!!!!!.

[Mayhemxpc]

VLO for the A320 is 250. Yes, the PIA plane was doing in excess of that when gear down was selected. It was still doing in excess of 200 kts when it first touched own. Curiously, when the plane did intercept the glideslope, the FDR shows that the gear handle was placed in the up position (A/S in excess of 250, above VLO) and never returned to the down position.

Early model Baron 55s had a VLO of 130 KIAS. It was sometimes difficult to get them to slow down enough to get the gear down, especially during a descent. The gear will come down on an O-2A (and I imagine the C-337) above placarded VLO of 122 KIAS. You just risk ripping off one or both nose wheel gear doors. (Not me...but I know someone.)

[lnuss]

Bonanza 154 knots
You might want to specify the vintage and model. The F-33A (1970s) specifies 175 mph/152 kts, but many earlier Bonanzas (and Barons) were lower. A 1965 S35, for example was 165 mph. Obviously this is true of others, whether Mooney, Viking, etc.


P-51 has 5 notches of flaps including last at 50*!!!!!.

And the L-19 has 60º of flaps -- barn doors indeed.

[BusyLittleShop]

I dont know airline gear speeds but here are some fast gen av piston planes that I do know. Bonanza 154 knots, good!, T-34 only 112 knots. P 51 150 knots?!.


Quote AAF Manual 51-127-5 page 58 paragraph 1 "Slow down to 170 IAS before lowering your landing gear." however same page paragraph 3 "The normal speed in the traffic pattern with wheels down is 150 IAS."

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[lnuss]

Quote AAF Manual 51-127-5 page 58 paragraph 1 "Slow down to 170 IAS before lowering your landing gear." however same page paragraph 3 "The normal speed in the traffic pattern with wheels down is 150 IAS."



Of course one reason for that difference is that the slower speed puts a lot less strain on the gear and doors, but the higher speed is available if you really need it. Just like the 175 mph gear speed on the F-33A isn't a good idea to use normally, since even 10-20 mph slower reduces the stress on it by a LOT.

[FlyingRon]

The Navion gear speed is 100 MPH (87 Knots), rather slow compared to the cruise speeds.

There was a crash (Houston if I recall) where they missed a step in the checklist on the DC-9 (or one of its later variants) and forgot to turn up the hydraulics. They put the gear handle down but failed to notice the gear didn't come down. The FO was flying and noted that the plane just didn't seem to be slowing down. The captain pretty much said "I've got it" and landed it gear up.

Good thing about the Navion, while you may not be able to lower the gear with the hydraulics off, if you could move the handle, the gear is coming down even without hydraulic assist. Usually, you can't move the handle as it is not only a hydraulic valve but also connected to the mechanical up locks. Without the hydraulics lifting the gear off the locks, its hard to move the handle. The emergency extension lever is just a bigger handle that gives you more leverage on the uplocks.

[rwanttaja]

Quote AAF Manual 51-127-5 page 58 paragraph 1 "Slow down to 170 IAS before lowering your landing gear." however same page paragraph 3 "The normal speed in the traffic pattern with wheels down is 150 IAS."


Looking at the manual, it appears these are in miles per hour. Wonder when the Air Force switched to knots?

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Greenwood]

Original P-51 airspeed indicator is in Miles Per hour. So your 170 miles are almost the same as the 150 KNOTS I gave, probably 149 knots, No real difference Best Glide 175 moph or bout 152K.
. And as for all the many other Beech models , I fly mine and its 154 k for gear and first half flaps. Not too hard to slow to 154 except you need bout 17 inches of throttle to keep gear warning horn from sounding as you slow down.

[BusyLittleShop]

Looking at the manual, it appears these are in miles per hour. Wonder when the Air Force switched to knots?

Ron Wanttaja


True Ron... P51 manual IAS are in miles per hour... however when I logged time in the Collins Foundation P51 Betty Jane IAS was switched to knots...



https://youtu.be/D23I4STvkRI

[Bill Berson]

On my last joy ride with an instructor in his C-150 he announced out loud on downwind: "landing hard surface, gear down and locked." I didn't say anything but liked the lesson. Never know when you might be in an amphibian someday.

[2ndsegment]

Flying various aircraft models in FS2020 using the AI brings one to the landing phase where a voice calls out "landing gear!" Taking off it had no problem raising the gear or the flaps. I myself take the Controls out of AI mode for a second, hit CTRL + G, and reenter AI mode again. I have no idea if it "learns" from this. Not doing it results in "landing gear damage."

[Mayhemxpc]

Looking at the manual, it appears these are in miles per hour. Wonder when the Air Force switched to knots?

Ron Wanttaja

I have been trying to pin this down. I know that the specifications (in 1952) for what would become the T-37 specified knots. Piston aircraft like the L-19 continued in mph, as did the Skyraider. Might I guess that the transition began with the establishment of the USAF, first with jets and then with piston aircraft? (The O-2 used knots while the civilian 337 used mph.) Or maybe just all airacraft designed after the USAF was established (early jets, thru the F-86, designed under the USAAF.)

[skyranger]

I have never understood why the gear lights are not at the top of the panel insted of on top of your knees .

[Airmutt]

For the same reason pilots belly in with the gear warning horn blaring.:eek:

[2ndsegment]

I asked a dumb question at the 2009 "Tailhook" as I moved from the backseat to the front. Are these airspeed numbers in Calibrated Airspeed or Equivalent Airspeed knowing that the F-4 being a supersonic aircraft used CAS and the commercial aircraft like the DC-9 used EAS? I think they are true airspeed answered the baffled McDonnell-Douglas marketing type watching over the F-18 simulator they had brought. I was sure it was not that but continued as we were up high where the carrier looked like a rowboat near Morro Rock.

[2ndsegment]

Your comments about airspeed limits in mph caused me to get out my T.O.1B-36D(II)-I Convair B-36 Peacemaker Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions. On page 284 is Figure 5-1 (Sheet 1) In the .Flight Instruments Box, F-1A Airspeed Indicator *160 Maximum Flaps Down ( Landing Gear 188) the picture beside on the port side shows M.P.H. F-1 and the * is for propeller limitations due to vibrations. Then in the box below F-4 or F-5 Air Speed Indicator *160 Maximum Speed Flaps Down (Landing Gear 188 ) and The instrument setting is such that the red pointer will move to indicate the limiting structural airspeed at 286 MPH or the airspeed representing the limiting Mach No. of .66, whichever is less. I always learn something, sometimes before and sometimes after my comment. This manual is 8 April 1955 Revised 18 April 1956.

[Mayhemxpc]

The B-36 was one of the planes I looked at. It backed up my hypothesis. The B-36 design specifications were published by the USAAC (1941) and initial deliveries were to the USAAF (1946).

[rwanttaja]

Looking at the manual, it appears these are in miles per hour. Wonder when the Air Force switched to knots?
I have been trying to pin this down. I know that the specifications (in 1952) for what would become the T-37 specified knots. Piston aircraft like the L-19 continued in mph, as did the Skyraider. Might I guess that the transition began with the establishment of the USAF, first with jets and then with piston aircraft? (The O-2 used knots while the civilian 337 used mph.) Or maybe just all airacraft designed after the USAF was established (early jets, thru the F-86, designed under the USAAF.)

Just encountered a clue in a discussion in another forum. From "FAA Historical Chronology, 1926-1996:

Jul 1, 1952: All CAA facilities and services were scheduled to begin using knots and nautical miles on this date, establishing a single military-civilian standard measurement for speed and distance used in air navigation. The change had been announced in the CAA Journal on Aug 15, 1950.

https://www.faa.gov/about/history/chronolog_history/media/b-chron.pdf

Obviously, the CAA would have been in discussions with the military prior to the original announcement in 1950.

Early jets seem to go with knots. Here's a shot of an F-86 instrument panel...airspeed indicator in knots. Found pictures with similar indicators on F-80s and F-84s.

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Now...when did the US Navy start using knots for their aircraft? I've found an SNJ panel with airspeed in MPH, another with it in knots. Obviously, subsequent owners may have used alternate instruments for the ones pictured.

Ron Wanttaja

[2ndsegment]

I personally think it relates to the other speed meter you see in the F-86, the Mach meter. First of all it is dimensionless like Buckingham's pi. You may have seen in my previous post about the B-36 there were two different airspeed gauges where one had a red pointer and the other had the Mach limit in a window. One of the books I recently bought and read said that the B-36 could fly higher than the B-47 before the B-57 and U-2. I just got the symposium reports the book was based on and today I am to receive "Accidental Engineer" on the development of the Central Air Data Computer (CADC). The pitot static system is a direct comparison of dynamic and static pressure that has been with us a long time but needs conversion to any kind of speed.

My pilot's manual had no performance appendix or even a SAC chart but this site says the B-36K service ceiling was 54,150 feet http://tbo.wikidot.com/b-36 The SAC charts in the back of my newly arrived symposium report give B-47s at 46,000 although this is found in the B-36 specs as the combat ceiling for ferry. Early Cold War Flights Symposium Proceedings Volume II: Appendixes Office of the Historian National Reconnaissance Office 2003

[FlyingRon]

Navy probably was more inclined to use NAUTICAL units.

[rwanttaja]

Navy probably was more inclined to use NAUTICAL units.

Agreed...which is why I was curious when I saw the SNJ panel with MPH.

This Wildcat gauge looks like it says "Air Speed Knots" under the indicator.
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Also found an N3N panel with what looks like "Knots" as well.

Could be the SNJ was originally a T-6, or a subsequent civilian owner switched.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mike M]

"I've always thought dummy gear switches should be installed in all GA trainers."

Strongly agree. Maybe even a little speed brake on the belly to simulate the sound and drag of retractable gear? I fantasize about letting a student go all the way to the chocks then just before shutdown ask "what's that red light mean?" before getting a free beer at the debrief.