To the EAA - it's OK if you have to cancel AirVenture 2020

[CHICAGORANDY]

NO, it sure as heck would not be "good" for all of us who do so dearly love the event, but AirVenture IS afterall an international event and right now we are ALL in the midst of a relatively long-term global/international Covid-19 public health CRISIS that may well not self-resolve in 120 days.

I am by NO means a panic monger. I have had enough 'medical' training to know that 80%+ of folks either won't get infected at all or won't suffer any long lasting negative outcomes and that under 5% of those already in poor health who could contract Covid-19 might in fact die from it. But I for one, and I can only speak for myself, completely understand why the powers that be at EAA HQ could indeed reach the monumental and severe decision to cancel this year... and I wouldn't hold a grudge at all. I would just look forward to attending and once again volunteering to conduct on the trams in 2021.

Considering how many panic buying/hoarding idiot lunkheads there seem to be in the general population, I wonder out loud if the AirVenture porta-potty folks can even supply enough TP and hand sanitizer to replenish all the units in Oshkosh come July.

NOTE - I am NOT asking EAA to cancel AirVenture 2020, I have plans to go and a motel room all reserved since last year. I am just saying that IF they conclude that for the general welfare of all involved it 'should' be deferred, it's OK. I get it. We will endure and persevere and come back all that much stronger next time.

That's MY one lone opinion anyway. See what happens when you're a retiree and they close all the casinos, impose shelter-in-home Statewide executive orders and you're forced to listen to the voices in your head? - LOL

[Floatsflyer]

Are you aware that EAA has publicly acknowledged that they have already cancelled some local events and flight operations in order to exercise social distancing? Are you aware that EAA stated just a few days ago that they have SHUT DOWN the Museum and Headquarters in Oshkosh until March 31 in accordance with state and federal guidance regarding COVID-19 transmission. They will revisit at that time. Are you aware they told the staff to go home and work from home?

Does it not seem logical and pragmatic that the next shoe to drop will be AV Oshkosh despite the unfortunate fact that EAA has not said one word on the subject or offered any guidance to the membership.

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THIS: The Governor of Wisconsin set out an emergency order late last week that prohibits public gatherings of more than 10 people. I've been going to OSH for a few decades so I'm pretty, pretty sure that AV Oshkosh would fall into that prohibition.

And despite ALL of the above, today I received an email from EAA to buy 2020 AV T-shirts on line as if it will be a collectors item if cancelled. Oh, the irony, oh, the horror! Oh, the comedy of errors. Here's a T-Shirt they should consider:

EAA AIRVENTURE OSHKOSH 2020

THE FUN IS CONTAGEOUS

Randy, I have an assignment for you. Get in touch with Jack Pelton and ask him if EAA Org and/or EAA Foundation has Business Disruption Insurance not cancelled or subject to Force Majeur in their overall Insurance Packge. I'm betting the answer is yes as large organizations and corporate entities with lots to lose do have it.

[CHICAGORANDY]

My thread is a but a thought exercise. Of course I am 'aware' of the situation to date. I felt the personal need to make the post about the 100 ton elephant in this forum room. lol

[GeorgeP]

Are you aware that EAA has publicly acknowledged that they have already cancelled some local events and flight operations in order to exercise social distancing? Are you aware that EAA stated just a few days ago that they have SHUT DOWN the Museum and Headquarters in Oshkosh until March 31 in accordance with state and federal guidance regarding COVID-19 transmission. They will revisit at that time. Are you aware they told the staff to go home and work from home?

Does it not seem logical and pragmatic that the next shoe to drop will be AV Oshkosh despite the unfortunate fact that EAA has not said one word on the subject or offered any guidance to the membership.

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THIS: The Governor of Wisconsin set out an emergency order late last week that prohibits public gatherings of more than 10 people. I've been going to OSH for a few decades so I'm pretty, pretty sure that AV Oshkosh would fall into that prohibition.

And despite ALL of the above, today I received an email from EAA to buy 2020 AV T-shirts on line as if it will be a collectors item if cancelled. Oh, the irony, oh, the horror! Oh, the comedy of errors. Here's a T-Shirt they should consider:

EAA AIRVENTURE OSHKOSH 2020

THE FUN IS CONTAGEOUS

Randy, I have an assignment for you. Get in touch with Jack Pelton and ask him if EAA Org and/or EAA Foundation has Business Disruption Insurance not cancelled or subject to Force Majeur in their overall Insurance Packge. I'm betting the answer is yes as large organizations and corporate entities with lots to lose do have it.

I, too, received the email which was offering for sale the 2020 Airventure T-shirts. I was gob-smacked.

What are they thinking? Are they thinking...?!

[Wrongway Feldman]

I don't think a week long airshow is worth gambling my/your life on.

Is EAA willing to refund all pre-show ticket sales ?

An interactive web-based dashboard to track COVID-19 in real time.
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Here is another real-time Covid-19 Dashboard.
https://ncov2019.live
The Map link on top of the page is more useful, it tells you where and the
number of cases are within the States. (click on the round balls, the Diamond shape: Cities with deaths )

This 2nd Dashboard was built by a 17 year old teenager.
https://www.democracynow.org/2020/3/13/meet_the_17_year_old_behind

[rwanttaja]

I, too, received the email which was offering for sale the 2020 Airventure T-shirts. I was gob-smacked.

Dude...do you realize how much those will be worth if they cancel Airventure 2020?????!!!

Ron "Might as well invest, all my stocks have tanked" Wanttaja

[Kyle Boatright]

I, too, received the email which was offering for sale the 2020 Airventure T-shirts. I was gob-smacked.

What are they thinking? Are they thinking...?!

I thought it was funny as heck. I just wish the SOS brothers would introduce a BeerVirusVenture T-shirt...

[Sirota]

Floats, I know my business interruption insurance does NOT cover COVID-19. And the Loss of Rents coverage on income properties does not cover rent reductions / waives caused by medical crisis'. Air Venture might be a big enough insurance buyer to force a carrier to issue cancellation coverage that covers this kind of crisis, but according to my agent NO insurance covers this kind of scenario.

[Floatsflyer]

Floats, I know my business interruption insurance does NOT cover COVID-19. And the Loss of Rents coverage on income properties does not cover rent reductions / waives caused by medical crisis'. Air Venture might be a big enough insurance buyer to force a carrier to issue cancellation coverage that covers this kind of crisis, but according to my agent NO insurance covers this kind of scenario.

Sirota, I'm sure your agent is totally correct when he tells you this but as you said EAA "may" be big enough and major crisis averse enough to negotiate coverage that covers an eventuality like this and other "naturally occurring" risks. This would also require the amending of the Force Majeur clause. When it comes to insurance coverage negotiation, premium costs are inextricably linked to your tolerance for risk. If an entity is willing to pay the price, almost anything is coverable.

[Airmutt]

I found this in an article dated 2011. Note medical epidemic and curtailment of transportation are mentioned.

Determining which types of circumstances will be covered by the force majeure clause is essential. Provisions often cover natural disasters like hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, and weather disturbances sometimes referred to as "acts of God." Other covered events may include war, terrorism or threats of terrorism, civil disorder, labor strikes or disruptions, fire, disease or medical epidemics or outbreaks, and curtailment of transportation facilities preventing or delaying attendance by at least twenty-five percent of meeting participants.

[TXFlyGuy]

We have canceled our rental car and hotel room.

Just as the Tokyo 2020 Summer Olympics have been canceled until next year (2021), it would be prudent for AirVenture to do likewise.

[Ronald Franck]

I plan on showing up, cancelled or not. Not to intermingle with people but damn it, I want that 2020 patch!
That way when I display it in my patch collection I can honestly say "I was there" even if no one else was.
(Humor - trying to remain sane in an insane world.)

[scuba72]

I agree with Randy. Its okay if Airventure is cancelled for the good of all of us. This year I want to attend more than ever due to the Air Force Special Operations Highlight being a former member of the 1st SOS. Will I continue to plan to attend? Yes. My wife works in the emergency room of a local hospital where they are caring for 2 patients with coronavirus, but I'm not going to become a hermit and hide from this, but I will practice social distancing and do everything in my power to protect myself and my family. Its still to early to call it off though at this time. EAA is doing the right thing by waiting. If by the June things aren't better, then canceling might be prudent.

One thing I heard the other day is that because of the wet weather we've been having is that the ticks are going to be bad this year. If We all go to Oshkosh, we may all suffer the effects of Corona with Lyme. Think about it.

[krw920]

If they do have to cancel, I hope their event insurance covers health emergencies, or we might be talking about a very different EAA if it doesn't. AV is the life blood of the organization, not membership dues.

[BJC]

…. we may all suffer the effects of Corona with Lyme. I'm willing to be a test subject.


BJC

[bmckinney]

What happens if the facts & stats show that the majority of CV19 moved across the west/midwest in January & February when no social distancing was in effect and only became "visible" when it hit the east coast? It explains why CA through the midwest have such flat curves as opposed to the east coast over the last few months. Somehow, miraculously, all illnesses/deaths recorded due to cancer, flu, & pneumonia have dropped significantly over the last 2 months. Government spokesperson expert Dr. Birx revealed yesterday that they are being "liberal" & noting cause of death in all cases as CV19 if they have ANY trace of it. In addition, a MN doctor also revealed on camera today that the MN Health department (via CDC) indicated to use CV19 as cause of death regardless of other conditions, even if not tested for it and maybe only exposed to it. If you ignore the causes and look at all available data on illnesses and deaths over history, yes, there is an uptick in late 2019 & early 2020, but would compare to the totals when the other surprise viruses hit the US in the past (like H1N1), when you look at ALL the data.

More information will be gained over the next two weeks. I am glad EAA is taking the proper time and available data to make decisions instead of taking panic measures as others have. Hold off as long as possible. We may learn more soon.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I am confident that the EAA would never choose to put National and International visitors in jeopardy. Until solid test data from across the country is available to the professional epidemiologists all any of us can do is wait and see. Since the world does in fact revolve around me and my situation - lol - I've had my AirVenture motel room secured since last July and can cancel it without penalty almost up to the last minute, my AirVenture $$$ is safely set aside in my savings account, and I'm still gathering new and old jokes anticipating my conductor duties in July.

That said, I have truly enjoyed MY lifelong passion for all things aviation, but I recognize that lifelong passions do NOT equal life or death gratification. I started this thread and comment now with the same intent. It's OK if EAA has to cancel AirVenture this year. that would just make AirVenture 2021 that much "more".

[malexander]

what happens if the facts & stats show that the majority of cv19 moved across the west/midwest in january & february when no social distancing was in effect and only became "visible" when it hit the east coast? It explains why ca through the midwest have such flat curves as opposed to the east coast over the last few months. Somehow, miraculously, all illnesses/deaths recorded due to cancer, flu, & pneumonia have dropped significantly over the last 2 months. Government spokesperson expert dr. Birx revealed yesterday that they are being "liberal" & noting cause of death in all cases as cv19 if they have any trace of it. In addition, a mn doctor also revealed on camera today that the mn health department (via cdc) indicated to use cv19 as cause of death regardless of other conditions, even if not tested for it and maybe only exposed to it. If you ignore the causes and look at all available data on illnesses and deaths over history, yes, there is an uptick in late 2019 & early 2020, but would compare to the totals when the other surprise viruses hit the us in the past (like h1n1), when you look at all the data.

More information will be gained over the next two weeks. I am glad eaa is taking the proper time and available data to make decisions instead of taking panic measures as others have. Hold off as long as possible. We may learn more soon.






I agree 100%!!

[bmckinney]

Well, if it’s cancelled Randy, you’ll have to come on here throughout the day and tell jokes. Maybe do a livestream while walking around your yard? My family got on the tram last year sitting in the back and we briefly chatted with you during the ride. You provided a few jokes. It didn’t dawn on me until about a week after that you were “the” CHICGORANDY.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Yes, I am he. The one and only ChicagoRandy, the man, the myth, the legend - LOL

If AirVenture does end up a no go - I hereby promise I shall do just that. I know I can record videos on my Android smartphone and my PC webcam. Would just have to figure out a simple, quick way to upload them. lol Worth investigating I reckon, the heavens know I got nuthin' but time nowadays.

[robert l]

What happens if the facts & stats show that the majority of CV19 moved across the west/midwest in January & February when no social distancing was in effect and only became "visible" when it hit the east coast? It explains why CA through the midwest have such flat curves as opposed to the east coast over the last few months. Somehow, miraculously, all illnesses/deaths recorded due to cancer, flu, & pneumonia have dropped significantly over the last 2 months. Government spokesperson expert Dr. Birx revealed yesterday that they are being "liberal" & noting cause of death in all cases as CV19 if they have ANY trace of it. In addition, a MN doctor also revealed on camera today that the MN Health department (via CDC) indicated to use CV19 as cause of death regardless of other conditions, even if not tested for it and maybe only exposed to it. If you ignore the causes and look at all available data on illnesses and deaths over history, yes, there is an uptick in late 2019 & early 2020, but would compare to the totals when the other surprise viruses hit the US in the past (like H1N1), when you look at ALL the data.

More information will be gained over the next two weeks. I am glad EAA is taking the proper time and available data to make decisions instead of taking panic measures as others have. Hold off as long as possible. We may learn more soon.
Well, I read elsewhere that they, (the government, CDC, I don't know?) want the numbers to be as high as possible so they can force everyone to take the vaccine ! Just saying.
Bob, I'm not taking it ! I had the flu shot and still got the flu !

[Floatsflyer]

Well, I read elsewhere that they, (the government, CDC, I don't know?) want the numbers to be as high as possible so they can force everyone to take the vaccine ! Just saying.
Bob, I'm not taking it ! I had the flu shot and still got the flu !

Well, I read elsewhere(The Chronicles of Narnia, Home and Garden, Mad Magazine, Archie and Jughead, I don't know?) that they want to take all SC newborns away from their SC grandparents so they can vaccinate them with non-conspiracy theory genes. Just saying.

[robert l]

Well, I read elsewhere(The Chronicles of Narnia, Home and Garden, Mad Magazine, Archie and Jughead, I don't know?) that they want to take all SC newborns away from their SC grandparents so they can vaccinate them with non-conspiracy theory genes. Just saying.

I loved Mad Magazine !
Bob, we shall see where this goes 8360

[GeorgeP]

I just wish that those who obviously have them would please share the magic mushrooms with the rest of us. ;) :D

[krw920]

Well, I read elsewhere that they, (the government, CDC, I don't know?) want the numbers to be as high as possible so they can force everyone to take the vaccine ! Just saying.
Bob, I'm not taking it ! I had the flu shot and still got the flu !

So when you say you got the flu, you know that because you tested positive for it? If not what symptoms did you have?

[Airmutt]

Is EAA really taking pro-active steps or in reality are they merely following state/federal mandates? If and when the decision is made to permit such an event, EAA thru no fault of their own, has absolutely no idea how the event will have to be restructured because those policies haven’t been developed and released. No one is simply going to throw a magic switch and we’re going to take right back up as if nothing happened. When the economy is started back up its going to happen in phases and we can expect major changes. Local, state and federal government is still in the crisis reaction mode. Few, if any, are talking about recovery and beyond. Even if given the green light; what will AV look like?

Just a few what if’s:
1. What if there is a limit to the number of people that can be put on to a shuttle bus or even CHICAGORANDY’s beloved trams. In Green Bay they are currently limiting public transit buses to a maximum of 6 person on board.
2. How is EAA going to deal with the long admission lines and other areas with social distancing still in effect? Someone has to work out a new layouts.
3. What if the food courts and cafes are impacted by new seating and occupancy requirements.
4. What if restroom cleaning and occupancy requirements change.
5. What if exhibit buildings, forum tents, workshops, the Hangar Store, interview circles, etc have occupancy limits imposed.

EAA doesn’t know simply because these requirements haven’t been developed. Without the policies in place, there is simply no way for EAA to plan and make the necessary adjustments. All the above could mean more assets and services to be acquired, more personnel, new policies to be developed. I’m not sure that EAA is going to have the ability or time to react in time to pull off AV in the face of a paradigm shift in public gathering policies.

[robert l]

So when you say you got the flu, you know that because you tested positive for it? If not what symptoms did you have?

At 73, I'm not afraid to go to the doctor if I think something is wrong with me. In December, 2019, after several days of feeling like crap, I went to my doctor and they did the swab test and it was positive for the flu. It lasted about two weeks. Mid to late January, 2020, I developed the worse cough I've ever had, it was constant but not really coughing up anything and it lasted a couple of weeks also. Doctor visit again and got prescription cough meds because OTC just wasn't cutting it. Was it Covid 19? Don't know, don't care, I got over it.
Bob, if it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger, or not !

[CHICAGORANDY]

My mantra has always been, "What doesn't kill you 'doesn't' really make you stronger, it just weakens you for the next time around when it just might finish what it started."

[Bill Greenwood]

Robert , what "vacine" do you think someone , the govt is trying to force you to take? There is not a vaccine , yet for this virus. And flu vaccine is voluntary, no one forces you to take it,

P S. My friend had homeowners insurance, but still had a total loss fire. Should she not renew the insurance?
PS n0 2 they are a medical family her brother is a top doctor at Medical center in Houston and they all get flu shots.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Anti-vaxers are the salt of the Earth, the great common clay from which all humanity is formed...... you know..... Morons.

[Kyle Boatright]

Anti-vaxers are the salt of the Earth, the great common clay from which all humanity is formed...... you know..... Morons.

I know where you stole most of that line, and I approve.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I know where you stole most of that line, and I approve.

ONLY the funniest "Western Themed' movie EVER made, by anyone. LOL

[Wsquare]

Interesting set of "what ifs" proposed by Dave in post #26. Simple solution. Limit the number of people that can enter the grounds by both entry gate and aircraft. Raise the price per person. Under this scenario, it could get kind of expensive to attend AirVenture, assuming EAA decides to make it a "go", and the "what ifs" become a reality.

Thanks, Wayne

[CHICAGORANDY]

The two most commonly heard - and least productive - Covid pandemic 'What Ifs" IMHO require either an accurate full-functioning crystal ball or a working time machine.

[robert l]

My mantra has always been, "What doesn't kill you 'doesn't' really make you stronger, it just weakens you for the next time around when it just might finish what it started."

That's why I said, or not !
But there is the case for taking a little poison to build up an immunity, but that's not me.

[robert l]

Robert , what "vacine" do you think someone , the govt is trying to force you to take? There is not a vaccine , yet for this virus. And flu vaccine is voluntary, no one forces you to take it,

P S. My friend had homeowners insurance, but still had a total loss fire. Should she not renew the insurance?
PS n0 2 they are a medical family her brother is a top doctor at Medical center in Houston and they all get flu shots.

I've been getting the flu shot and pneumonia shot for 5 years I guess, my wife is a nurse and she has to get one every year, or, wear a mask year round. Don't really have a problem with the flu shots, it's a gamble either way. When I was born I got all the required vaccinations so I think I'm good, don't want any more, after all, it should be voluntary anyway.

[Airmutt]

Fretting about something that hasn’t even been developed seems like a lot of unnecessary hand wringing. Personally, we should more concerned about the impacts to us as a nation and to our society until things can get “back to normal”. If it takes getting a vaccine, so be it.

[Wsquare]

Apperently there is some correlation between resistance to COVID-19 and those that have had tuberculosis vaccinations. A Google of “tb vaccination covid” yields quite an array of articles. If true, good news, as I had the vaccine when younger. Father was in Air Force, traveled overseas, and I thought I was a pin cushion from all the visits to the hospital while getting ready for travel.

Take care, Wayne

[FlyinAdamBadger]

SocialFlight Live! 4-14-20: EAA's Jack Pelton, AEA's Mike Adamson & More:


“SocialFlight Live!” is a live broadcast dedicated to supporting General Aviation pilots and enthusiasts during these challenging times. This episode features guests Jack Pelton, CEO and Chairman of EAA, as well as Mike Adamson, President of the Aviation Electronics Association. Join us for an entertaining and informative evening of discussion of how General Aviation is responding during the COVID crisis. As an added bonus, SocialFlight Live! concludes with an update on our Titan T-51D Mustang build project (happening in our living room broadcast studio).

AirVenture discussion starts at 31:00. Jack's interview is from 6:48 to 41:45.

Watch here: https://youtu.be/BAs2lKWSdXg

[PaulDow]

Another thing that will get affected by not holding our convention are our magazines. There is a lot of content accumulated during that week which is used throughout the year.

I'm not saying that should be a factor in the decision, but just something to note will happen in the event of a cancelled or curtailed event.

[FlyinAdamBadger]

On April 24, 2020, WKOW 27 provided an update on EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2020.

Dick Knapinski, Director of Communications for EAA, says the "World's Largest Aviation Celebration" is still scheduled for July 20 to July 26 on the EAA Grounds in Oshkosh.

Knapinski says they are working with federal, state, and local health officials to assess the COVID-19 situation.

"We want to make sure it's a safe event and the health and safety of all of our guests, our exhibitors, and our volunteers are our top priority," said Knapinski. "So we'll see what the situation is by the middle of May and make the appropriate decision at that point."

Video & Article Here: https://wkow.com/2020/04/24/eaa-to-make-a-decision-about-airventure-2020-by-mid-may/

[adamsanner]

Given that a large proportion of devoted attendees are over 60 years old, holding Airventure 2020 would certainly mean loss of life. To not cancel AV 2020, to me, would be irresponsible, no matter what "changes" they could make to try to make it safer. With all of the reopenings underway now, there will be a rebound, just compounding the problem for the summer. EAA: Make the safe decision. We will all breathe a sigh of relief.

[Airmutt]

Much has been made about Georgia reopening but not much is said about the conditions imposed. Such as...restaurants are limited to 25% capacity, hair salon personnel must wear PPE and patrons wait in their cars to be called in. Stores have limited occupancy and one way isles, etc.

So, I think the real interest is just what conditions will be imposed on EAA and AV. Once we see that I think folks can make up their own minds and prepare accordingly.

[Ronald Franck]

I'm 70 and I have absolutely no fear of Covid-19. I started social distancing soon after they opened the first WalMart. If I wanted to "live safe" I'd never get in a car or on an airplane. If you fear that AirVenture 2020 would be a cesspool of viral infection then stay home. Let your fear rule your life, not mine.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I'm 70 and I have absolutely no fear of Covid-19. I started social distancing soon after they opened the first WalMart. If I wanted to "live safe" I'd never get in a car or on an airplane. If you fear that AirVenture 2020 would be a cesspool of viral infection then stay home. Let your fear rule your life, not mine.

All valid points of course - But neither you nor I will be the ones needing liability insurance for the event. All the individual vendors, exhibitors, dealers, food service staffs etc.etc.etc. not to mention EAA itself WILL be "on the hook" for potential negligence lawsuits two weeks after AirVenture closes. I'm thinking the TV commercials for "Dewey, Cheatem and Howe" almost write themselves ...... "Did you attend Oshkosh? Feeling ill? Need a check? Call our claim professionals today. We're here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to serve YOU."

[robert l]

I agree with you Ronald, I'm 73, my wife is 58 and is a nurse at the epicenter hospital where it started in S.C. We are cautious, but not afraid, we don't wear mask when we go out unless the place we go requires it. She only wears one at work when necessary, which isn't often. I believe, and that's just my opinion, that the death toll numbers have been intentionally skewed to show more than what is actually correct. The regular flu season has thousands of death every year but no one panics because it's the, "norm", but the media is treating Covid 19 like the plague. We take our temperature regularly, wash our hands and distance ourselfs from other people, family included, we visit some, but the hugs and hand shaking is absent. I'm cool with that, although I come from a family of huggers. With that being said, I also agree with Randy, there are a lot of people, (not the true aviation people) that will want to blame EAA even if they get a splinter and are just looking for someone with deep pockets. I for one, am willing to sign a waver if that's what it comes down to. I just don't believe it's as bad as it's made out to be. There again, that's just me and y'all can crucify me if you feel the need, I won't be offended. If A/V 2020 happends, I'm going to be there.
Bob

[HaroldS]

Yes, we are in our 70s and I think it would be irresponsible for EAA to keep Airventure 2020 on, and force us to make that kind of decision about whether to go or not. If they decide to go ahead, I fear that many folks, particularly like us, will catch the virus and some won't make it. Why would Jack and the Board take that kind of chance? Is a life not worth waiting until we are through this? Do what Arlington did - just say "2021" tickets and arrangements all still good. Lives saved.

[rwanttaja]

The liability issue, I think, will be the key one. EAA's second-best protection (the first is, of course, NOT holding the event at all) would be to show that the precautions they took were similar to those taken by other large public events.

Right now, all summer's public events in the State of Washington have been canceled, and that's similar to other states. However, the outbreak in Wisconsin has (so far) been minor.

A bit of research shows that a major Wisconsin music festival (Summerfest, "The World's Largest Music Festival") that usually runs at the end of June has been postponed until September. The Wisconsin State Fair is just after Oshkosh; their web page says the decision has not yet been made. If the state fair eventually cancels, this will put EAA out on a limb if they decide to hold the event.

Activities like major league baseball and NASCAR are planning to re-start...but WITHOUT public attendance. If the Brewers aren't allowing fans into its games, and especially if the games are being held in Arizona rather than at home, this is, again, going to make EAA look like they're taking unwarranted risks. Places that are allowing restaurants and bars to re-open are requiring they reduce the allowed number of customers to help maintain distancing.

EAA may well have to limit attendance...which won't sit well, when you consider that most of the attendees come hundreds, if not thousands of miles to attend. If the forums require six-foot spacing for distancing, that reduces the attendees by about 2/3rds. How is EAA going to handle the overflow of angry people denied entry to a given forum? Similar limitations would hold for concerts and Theater in the Woods events. And how do you enforce social distancing during the airshow? On the trams? Riding the buses, or waiting in line for entry?

EAA's liability will depend not only on the rules they implement, but their ability/willingness to ENFORCE those rules. There will be a lot of volunteers deciding not to attend this year; EAA may not know the actual numbers for a couple months. Yet they have to ensure that adequate enforcement will be available. Their only way to be sure is to contract for private security...which is NOT going to go over well with the attendees.

Then we get to the vendors. Most of aviation is hurting right now. How many are going to be willing to shell out the usual thousands of dollars to rent exhibit space, ship displays and equipment, and hire booth staffs with the prospect that attendance is going to be significantly lower? Same holds for sponsors. Boeing, for example, is really hurting and is laying off 15% of its work force. How interested are they in supporting Oshkosh this year?

Food vendors: More sanitary rules, of course, but how do they estimate how much food to order? A "normal" year is easy enough, but there's no way to tell how many people are going to show up. ALL business are hurting...the food vendors won't want to over-order. Which means, more than likely, there will be shortages on the grounds. Off-site restaurants may be required to limit seating as well.

A lot of problems, that EAA is going to have to solve. And, again, there's a severe dearth of crystal balls in the world. We don't know if COVID-19 will be a bad memory by the end of July....will just be hitting its second wind. This is going to be a tough call for EAA. It's unlikely they can hold a "traditional" event.

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

Yeah Ron, just the social distancing requirement requires a complete rethink of AV. I can imagine pulling into parking: “Welcome to AirVenture! Due to limited seating you are number 2354 for the shuttle bus; we should be able to get you to the grounds in about a day and a half.” :eek:

[Bill Berson]

Ron, do you have a source for this comment: "Right now, all summer's public events in the State of Washington have been canceled, and that's similar to other states. However, the outbreak in Wisconsin has (so far) been minor".

We are not yet sure if our RC club can hold a Fun -Fly event this summer. (mid June or later)

[CHICAGORANDY]

However, the outbreak in Wisconsin has (so far) been minor".

And THAT is the insidious thing about this particular virus, the difference between minor issues and all out plague panic is a mere two weeks' incubation and subsequent run on the hospital ICUs.

[Ronald Franck]

All valid points of course - But neither you nor I will be the ones needing liability insurance for the event. All the individual vendors, exhibitors, dealers, food service staffs etc.etc.etc. not to mention EAA itself WILL be "on the hook" for potential negligence lawsuits two weeks after AirVenture closes. I'm thinking the TV commercials for "Dewey, Cheatem and Howe" almost write themselves ...... "Did you attend Oshkosh? Feeling ill? Need a check? Call our claim professionals today. We're here 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to serve YOU."
How could they possibly prove they contracted Covid-19 while at AirVenture? How does anyone prove where they got it? Doors? Gas pumps? Handling canned goods in a grocery store? A DVD from Redbox? Currency? A touchpad at checkout? From tainted food at a drive through? Unless you can see it by shining a blacklight or similar device on it it's anyone's guess where it is hiding. Covid 19 will not keep me away from AirVenture. Dogs, on the other hand, are a completely different matter..............

[rwanttaja]

Ron, do you have a source for this comment: "Right now, all summer's public events in the State of Washington have been canceled, and that's similar to other states. However, the outbreak in Wisconsin has (so far) been minor".

We are not yet sure if our RC club can hold a Fun -Fly event this summer. (mid June or later)

You're right, I've overstated that. Just about everything immediate is cancelled, but I haven't heard what organizations like Seafair are going to do for events deeper into the summer. It's different for the Seattle/Tacoma area, of course; eastern part of the state is probably going to see fewer cancellations. None of this is government-related; it's all the decisions of the organizations themselves.

All organizations will need to balance the expenditure needed to hold the event vs. the expected revenue when people are skittish about potential infections.

Ron Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

How could they possibly prove they contracted Covid-19 while at AirVenture? How does anyone prove where they got it? Doors? Gas pumps? Handling canned goods in a grocery store? A DVD from Redbox? Currency? A touchpad at checkout? From tainted food at a drive through? Unless you can see it by shining a blacklight or similar device on it it's anyone's guess where it is hiding. Covid 19 will not keep me away from AirVenture. Dogs, on the other hand, are a completely different matter..............

Had a similar case about twenty-five years ago. The group I worked with went out for a Friday Christmas party at a private room in a local hotel. The following Monday, there were a lot of folks out sick. Shrug it off; it was the cold and flu season. Gone Tuesday, too. Started trickling back on Wednesday. Comparing notes, they all realized they had the same gastrointestinal upset. We realized this was probably food poisoning.

The hotel basically waved their hands and said, "prove it." And we couldn't really...all the physical evidence was long gone, including what people had upchucked and otherwise voided over the weekend.

Quite possibly, we could have pursued this... tried to find other folks who eaten there that Friday. But no one died; no one had a permanent health loss.

Covid-19 is different. A lot of effort is being spent to track the spread. If two people in a small town come down with it, and they'd both been to Oshkosh in the previous two weeks, the people who track these things are going to look closer.

Remember, the Airventure attendees probably won't catch it from Oshkosh locals, but from other attendees. That means Oshkosh itself may see spike in cases. If a huge Covid-19 outbreak starts in the city of Oshkosh a week after the show ends, that'll be pointing a great big finger at EAA. And there'll be more attention paid to the people who visited there. Contact tracing will be engaged, and every person the lawyers trace who were at Oshkosh and brought it home to their families will be queried.

At that point, the emphasis will center on whether EAA had sufficient safeguards in place. ALWAYS easy to show how they were circumvented, ignored, etc.

Ron Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

The problem is that EAA relies heavily on volunteers. The question is how many people are planning to attend. Frankly, from discussions with the chairs in our area, we're wondering if we'll have sufficient manpower to pull this off. A lot of people are punting on travel because they just are too uncertain. We've got conferences scheduled in the fall that are pulling the plug.

[Ronald Franck]

Sounds like a good science experiment. Have people come into Oshkosh from the 4 corners of the world. Wait two weeks after the show and then monitor if there is an unusual spike in Covid-19 cases in Winnabago County. (OK, I said that with a dash of tongue-in-cheek humor, but it would bring closure to the argument, on one side or the other.) The authority for this government over-reach is based on the idea of this being a "National Disaster," which it is not. The experts told us to expect deaths in the millions. That didn't happen. The only thing that did happened was a panic buying of toilet paper. Really? Anyone that thought the first thing to buy during a national disaster was toilet paper doesn't need to crew with me in my lifeboat.
The new catch phrase is "Wait for the second wave." I can hear the footsteps running to the toilet paper isle already.
Covid-19 death rates in California were reported to be 0.03% of the population. Covid-19 death rates in New York state were reported to be 0.01% of the population. I doubt that qualifies as a National Disaster.

[mbalexander]

I've felt the same way about this whole thing that Ronald and Robert1 have since the beginning of it. Numbers are skewed, all political.

My contention is, and has been, if you think you're going to "catch" something while you're there.....don't go. If you think you might contaminate someone while there....don't go. Then YOU can feel good about yourself, that you "did your part".

If AV 2020 isn't canceled....I'll be there.


"Make yourself a sheep and the wolves will eat you". Benjamin Franklin

[CHICAGORANDY]

Heard on WGN TV news just now that the huge local concert venue 'Ravinia' (trust me..iit's a BIG deal in these parts) has cancelled its entire 2020 season that normally features over 100 different acts and artists from June through September. Safety and the near impossibility of meeting any sort of guidelines stated as factors.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/ravinia-cancels-season-for-first-time-since-great-depression-due-to-coronavirus/

[Airmutt]

Georgia created 22 pages of guidelines for restaurants in order to reopen and operate at 25% capacity. Hate to see what the state of Wisconsin is going to levy on EAA. That’s IF they decide to even let the event go on.

[Sam Oleson]

Hello everyone, AirVenture 2020 is officially canceled. Here's a message from EAA CEO/Chairman Jack Pelton: https://bit.ly/3f3yw8x (https://bit.ly/3f3yw8x?fbclid=IwAR0rVzXz9ybNoUhMt8l_YiLAeYzlgtCtp AFwu2KznXdnFPH3XFOuOMAGh1s)

[CHICAGORANDY]

IMHO it's for the best and of the two possibile choices, the one that can't hurt anyone's life...

I reckon I have an extra year to seek out the corniest jokes mankind has imagined, recognizing that the groaners I had in the wings for this year will simply "age to perfection" by 2021 - lol

If the Fates allow, I WILL be at the mike once again next time.

[FlyingRon]

I don't know why you insist on posting that photo of that terrible accident.

[Joda]

I don't know why you insist on posting that photo of that terrible accident.


I agree. That was not a good day. I was right there. Don't want to have to see something like that again.

[Mike Kitslaar]

I think that considering the result of that avenger incident its in very poor taste to post something like that. Hoping the administrator has the courtesy to TAKE IT DOWN!

[Dave Stadt]

Heard on WGN TV news just now that the huge local concert venue 'Ravinia' (trust me..iit's a BIG deal in these parts) has cancelled its entire 2020 season that normally features over 100 different acts and artists from June through September. Safety and the near impossibility of meeting any sort of guidelines stated as factors.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/ravinia-cancels-season-for-first-time-since-great-depression-due-to-coronavirus/

Ravinia can get as packed as OSH during some of it's concerts.

[Mayhemxpc]

Also thinking about the music festival at Oshkosh just before Airventure. Cancelling both of those will be a HUGE hit on the economy of the area, and by extension, the state of Wisconsin.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Ravinia can get as packed as OSH during some of it's concerts.

I'm 71 and admit I've never been there, I "think" I might have driven by the place once? I don't do crowds and am too poor to enjoy 'culture' - LOL Some of us are like dat here on the Southwest side.;)

[Airmutt]

Also thinking about the music festival at Oshkosh just before Airventure. Cancelling both of those will be a HUGE hit on the economy of the area, and by extension, the state of Wisconsin.

Actually there are three. One has already postponed. The other two are about ready to get a big reality check. There is also a big one down in Milwaukee. There are all kinds of summer festivals in Wisconsin going down the tubes due to the governor’s mandate, even in counties that are practically non effected. The state fair is held in West Allis which is on the west side of Milwaukee starting Aug 6th its probably gonna go down in flames as well. But you’re right the economic impact is HUGE.

Here in Atlanta they just pushed the Peachtree Road Race back to Thanksgiving. Now that actually makes sense from a temperature standpoint - Fewer heat casualties.