Tram Change At Airventure

[Bill Greenwood]

If I am reading right, plans are to stop the tram that comes into the convention from the Bus terminal just outside the main gate, I think it is the green tram and it runs in to just across from the tower just south of the A and P burger place.
I think we really need this tram, many people use it. So I phoned EAA office and was disappointed to hear the yes they are stopping it. They claim that a survey of members said WE want it stopped.
I don't think so. I never received any such survey, as a matter of fact since I joined EAA bout 40 years ago I have never once received a single survey that asks my needs, wants, or opinions.
How about you? Do you think that tram would be useful? And did you ever have a survey on this or any other subject?

[CHICAGORANDY]

The older I get about the ONLY time anyone ever asks me something happens at the grocery store - "Need any help getting those bags to your car sir?" lol..so No, I wasn't surveyed either about the tram changes.

IMHO dropping the Green tram to the Bus Park is a huge mistake. Someone else posted that they will be eliminating the stop at Vintage/Boeing Plaza on Vern St? IMHO a bigger mistake.

The general demographic in GA is aging, and geezers like me who are not as mobile as we wish we were are why trams exist in the first place. Making us walk further to catch a ride makes no sense to ME.

[skyfixer8]

I also agree with an earlier post Randy made. With no stops on new blue route from Hanger Cafe to Camp ground entrance, lots of people will be jumping off as we slow to make the corner. Talk about a dangerous situation. I wonder what Vintage folks think about this.

[CHICAGORANDY]

We could easily stop at the Vintage Restaurant? Or just before that? There's GOT TO BE someplace between the Hangar Cafe and the new Hangar B Depot where a stop can be created? Maybe one will be created by Monday afternoon after a few tram jumpers get injured or after all those folks the tram blows by start loudly complaining to the 'Powers that Be'?

[skyfixer8]

Maybe the trams will have automatic doors installed the only open when tram stops. I have asked EAA and posted to Gene and Sandy. just waiting for reply.

[Bill Greenwood]

I spoke to management at headquarters this afternoon and mostly I was disappointed in what I was told. Short version of bad news, yes its true the green tram to the bus park and into the grounds to the other trams just across from the tower is not going to run at Airventure.
Why cancel it? EAA hired Northwestern to come in an do a survey? last year and they said to cancel. it is claimed that 10,000 members were asked or given a gps gadget and its based on this. I asked how these chosen ones were selected last year, I used that tram a number of times and was never asked my opinion. I also have never seen any sort of survey since I have been a member, which is since 1982. They claim surveys are sent frequently, but only to people who have given their email. I've been a member for 38years and attended every convention, every year, if that counts for anything. I probably spent $2500 last year in the area for the three of us.
I may be sort of reading between the lines, but this reminds me of AOPA canceling the red board forum, and it being an already decision made at the top by a relatively few people and those not caring what the membership at large thinks. I know AOPA drove dozens of people, even long time members into not renewing.
EAA has been very important to me, along with CAF its been the highlight group of my years flying. I have brought show airplanes, sometimes two per year, flown in the show, given forums, given Young Eagle rides, and taken a builders course in Feb one year.

[Auburntsts]

Bill thanks for the update. Sheds a lot of light on the situation

[Airmutt]

Hey guys, not trying to be a killjoy but there is a parallel thread on the same topic.

And yes thanks Bill for the info. I had commented on the other thread about why they didn’t do a member survey. I’m closing in on 50 years as a member and they've got my email - hmm no survey.

[robert l]

The older I get about the ONLY time anyone ever asks me something happens at the grocery store - "Need any help getting those bags to your car sir?" lol..so No, I wasn't surveyed either about the tram changes.

IMHO dropping the Green tram to the Bus Park is a huge mistake. Someone else posted that they will be eliminating the stop at Vintage/Boeing Plaza on Vern St? IMHO a bigger mistake.

The general demographic in GA is aging, and geezers like me who are not as mobile as we wish we were are why trams exist in the first place. Making us walk further to catch a ride makes no sense to ME.
And I think for the most part, old guys like us obey the rules, not like the many, MANY young people zipping around on scooters and golf carts last year.
Bob, I might be old, but I'm slow !

[Kyle Boatright]

Hey guys, not trying to be a killjoy but there is a parallel thread on the same topic.

And yes thanks Bill for the info. I had commented on the other thread about why they didn’t do a member survey. I’m closing in on 50 years as a member and they've got my email - hmm no survey.

I got a very lengthy and poorly sequenced survey after the convention last year.

Q) How often did you ride the trams last year?
A) Never/none.

Q) Of the tram rides you took, how many were along the main N/S airshow line?
A) I had no answer to this. (There was a whole series of these questions which should have been avoided if they had done anything intelligent with the first answer in the sequence.)

Q) Where did you park your vehicle when attending the event this year?
A) (no answer) Apparently, flying in wasn't an option anyone had considered.

Q) From where you parked your vehicle, how far did you have to walk to get inside the event grounds?
A) Aargh.

There were many, many questions which simply didn't apply to someone who camped on the field. As I recall, one of my comments entered at the end of the survey was they needed to hire a survey company which actually understood the event and understood how to properly execute a survey.

[Airmutt]

Not hard to develop the logic tree to run people down the right rabbit hole based on their experience. It’s even easier to do a general opinion survey.

[Bill Greenwood]

It would be interesting to know how much EAA spent on this "study" from Northwestern University and what their background and expertise is in large gatherings and parking and transportation therein. Are they pilots or even from an aviation program? Maybe they don't have to know about aviation. if they know about other conventions.

[Airmutt]

It certainly helps to have firsthand experience. Perhaps someone should have made a few of those kids walk the entire grounds for say 3 days and then generate the survey. I would bet their perspective would be a lot different from those who didn’t.

[Bill Greenwood]

I would also bet that whoever decided to cut out the tram, has a golf cart to ride around in at the convention.

[CHICAGORANDY]

IF the leaders at EAA wanted to get real-time feedback for 'almost' free' they could get a bunch of those cheapie business cards printed up from one of those online joints with the EAA contact phone numbers and e-mail address printed on them. You now, to hand out to anyone/everyone who complains to volunteers during Airventure about the new changes/disappointments.

[skyfixer8]

The university had GPS trackes on the trams but most of the time they weren t working, I also saw the study kids just taking videos at selected spots and either texting or listening to music. Never saw one actually approach anyone. The girl we had at the tower turn point was very uncooperative if anyone asked her a question. As a tram volunteer, my main concern is going to be the lack of a stop at Vintage. There is no way we will be able to control people jumping on and off while we slow down to turn onto or off of Vern St. Randy, you have a great idea with the business cards.

[robert l]

I'm thinking about getting a bunch of those cheapie business cards printed up from one of those online joints with the EAA contact phone numbers and e-mail address printed on them. You now, to hand out to anyone/everyone who complains to me during Airventure about the new changes/disappointments.

It would provide one quick way for EAA to get direct real-time feedback from attendees?

Ok Randy, I'll donate $10.00 for business cards, I think you can get 500 for $10.00 so between the two of us, we can hand out a thousand.
Bob

[robert l]

I Googled Northwestern University's Transportation Study and it came up on the EAA site. So, I guess if you go to eaa.org you can find it.
Bob

[CHICAGORANDY]

Deleted this post - redundant info.

[Floatsflyer]

Randy, I'm a child and a product of the 60's so I love what you want to do and the method for displaying your/our discontent. So, as far as "get me in trouble" is concerned, I'm pretty sure you're already on their radar and they could ask you to cease and desist from volunteering.

We know how much this one week at OSH means to you and your life so don't jeopardize it. Let others with zero skin in the game and zero to lose deal with another EAA blunder.

[Airmutt]

Tempting but probably a bad idea.
Got to face reality that there is no perfect plan. You’re never gonna satisfy everyone with 500K+ attendees. You’re bound to get gripes about:
Admission cost
Parking
Shuttle services
Traffic
Food quality and cost
Camping facilities
Amenities
and whatever makes someone unhappy. You just won’t have enough cards :rollseyes:
I don’t like or agree with everything EAA does but still plan on attending.

[CHICAGORANDY]

LOL

In truth I feel NO discontent. I just show up and follow whatever rules are in place each year. But as one of the poor schlubbs who WILL get stuck filling out the forms if/when tram passengers injure themselves jumping on and off the rigs at the Vern corner, and who will be among those face-to-face with the 'happy campers' as they are told they have to hike it to the Bus Park, I have some skin in the game and enough experience at this to see the likely pitfalls.

As always, however, I serve at the pleasure of the EAA powers that be. I am content to yap away for 9 straight days and watch the planes and meet the people.

[skyfixer8]

I e mailed EAA about my concerns. Waiting for an answer.

[FlyingRon]

I have to admit, that I've not paid an admission or camping fee in over a decade at OSH and many of my covolunteers chip in on dinners and hence we eat cheap. Of course, I put in over a hundred hours every year on the show (which is way more than what the thresholds for getting comped is). The one thing I've learned is that with occasional exception, the groups that run the show DO listen to complaints. Maybe not in time to get things changed for this year, but a major number of my gripes have been resolved. Everything from vehicles to parking/camping policies.

[Airmutt]

I did a lot of volunteering in the 80s and early 90s and there were no such perks. Paid to park or camp and for admission. Plus there there were some rather unsavory things going on with personnel. Honestly, got kind of jaded or burned out on the whole concept. Glad to know that things changed for the better.

I think that the Warbirds and Vintage folks having their own division is a big plus. It allows y’all to essentially self govern your areas and creates a cohesive and friendly environment. Several years ago I went to a venue and asked if I could help and kinda got a “Who are you?” response. Oh well, at least I gave it another shot.

[Auburntsts]

FWIW, for those who don't follow Facebook, the "survey" and resulting changes have gotten pretty well skewered on EAA's FB page so I'm guessing that the EAA leadership is well aware of the discontent these changes have caused. Whether that leads to anything remains to be seen.

[FlyingRon]

I did a lot of volunteering in the 80s and early 90s and there were no such perks. Paid to park or camp and for admission.
I paid during those years as well. It used to be that each volunteer group was apportioned some number of free credentials and it was up to your individual chairmen to figure out how to dole them out. They normalized that a few years back. Note that (at least in our area), your credentials for volunteering this year are based on how much you worked the previous years.

Community cooking is independent of any of that. Sally's Oaken Alley in vintage ran for years and was based on Sally and her covolunteers and people kicking in money to pay for food. That shutdown for lack of volunteers a few years back (I have some of the equipment donated to me). Our group is somewhat limited to those camping with us but there's usually extra food if someone stops by.

[L16 Pilot]

Don't know exactly where this fits but I do get tired of dodging the golf carts. On the other hand a friend of mine bought a couple of cases of oil last year and the vendor hauled them to his car so that makes sense as you can hardly carry two cases probably half a mile on a hot day.

[Bill Greenwood]

There aren't anywhere near 500K visitors there Per Day. The attendance for the whole week,total is announced at 642,000 still a lot of people, maybe 90,000 on a peak day. I have been to the football game with 102,000 capacity and don't think Osh has that many.

[Airmutt]

Bill your numbers are probably pretty close. From what I understand, if you attend for n number of days then you are counted as n number of attendees. The local paper estimates actual attendance more like 200-300k. I’m thinking daily attendance is probably 125k give or take.

[MEdwards]

If you plan to attend for four days, it’s cheaper to buy a weekly pass. If you do that, you’re probably counted as having attended for seven days, further inflating the attendance numbers.

[Ronald Franck]

There was a webinair a few days back that detailed the changes to traffic flow, parking and parking lot usage, and finally, the trams.
Take an hour and watch the webinair, listen to their explanation for the changes and the comments and questions that follow.
My one suggestion would be to create a Blue tram stop along Wittman Rd. immediately east of the Vintage Barn for those wanting to stop at
the Vintage area without having to backtrack from the Hangar Cafe drop. This would eliminate stopping along Vern Ave., which is narrow
and heavily trafficked by every sort of vehicle and persons.
EAA is listening, you're comments are being noted. Now relax a bit and let them iron out the wrinkles.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Ron, might you have a link to that webinar?

[saber25]

"Are you not paying attention or understanding the gravity and magnitude of this world-wide pandemic. If not, time to cull the herd. Better still, let's remove all the warning stickers and let Mother Nature take care of everything".[/QUOTE]

I suspect you are right on target and looking at the losses in my retirement account, the last thing I want is shuffling around with a large group grope hoping not to to infect or be infected.

[robert l]

Rome is burning and some of you are Nero fiddling about trivial tram changes for an event that will be cancelled either because of government imposed mandatory closures or EAA finally extracts their collective head from the sand or their a**.

Are you not paying attention or understanding the gravity and magnitude of this world-wide pandemic. If not, time to cull the herd. Better still, let's remove all the warning stickers and let Mother Nature take care of everything.

Well the first thing I'm not going to do is panic, and the second thing I'm not going to do is stop thinking there is a future beyond the (man made? nautral? God sent? ) virus and keep living my life. You won't find me running around yelling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling! We are careful, we are somewhat preppers, we don't jump through our $** when someting happens, huricane, snow, etc. We are prepared and living our life.
Bob, that's all, carry on.

[Floatsflyer]

Well the first thing I'm not going to do is panic, and the second thing I'm not going to do is stop thinking there is a future beyond the (man made? nautral? God sent? ) virus and keep living my life. You won't find me running around yelling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling! We are careful, we are somewhat preppers, we don't jump through our $** when someting happens, huricane, snow, etc. We are prepared and living our life.
Bob, that's all, carry on.

Once again, as I responded to another post of yours from a few days ago:

Beautiful. Tremendous. Perfect.🙈🙉🙊

[malexander]

Well the first thing I'm not going to do is panic, and the second thing I'm not going to do is stop thinking there is a future beyond the (man made? nautral? God sent? ) virus and keep living my life. You won't find me running around yelling, the sky is falling, the sky is falling! We are careful, we are somewhat preppers, we don't jump through our $** when someting happens, huricane, snow, etc. We are prepared and living our life.
Bob, that's all, carry on.


Ditto, Ditto!!

[lkorona]

Not panicky, just adding a dose of reality. Like I posted over on the Blue Board:
Looking worse every day this past week, let's see what next week brings us, but I'm not sure if will be any better. I fear that we are in this mess for a while, and events like OSH are bound to fall victim. I hate to say this but I think that we all need to face the reality of the impact of this virus will have on humanity for months to come.

I feel like it's the situation of that VFR Pilot who continues to fly into deteriorating MVFR conditions, convinced that better weather is in just the next mile.

[Wrongway Feldman]

I didn't know there was such a problem with tram jumpers.
They should have a mechanism on the trams, like they have on city buses.
If any of the doors on the bus are opened, the bus's transmission switches into neutral,
the gas pedal is disengaged and the brakes are automatically applied.
The bus can't move until the doors are shut.

Eliminating the Green Tram Route that runs from the Bus Park to the Air Traffic Control tower, is a bad idea.
The reason it's a bad ideal is because the D parking lot (formerly the blue lot) is a handicap lot and is adjacent
to the Bus Park. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen handicap people park their car and walk over
to the Bus Park and catch the Green Tram.

[FlyinAdamBadger]

Webinar- Chairman Briefing - EAA AirVenture 2020 Parking & Transportation Changes. Watch Here: https://www.eaa.org/videos/6142365633001

[malexander]

Not panicky, just adding a dose of reality. Like I posted over on the Blue Board:
Looking worse every day this past week, let's see what next week brings us, but I'm not sure if will be any better. I fear that we are in this mess for a while, and events like OSH are bound to fall victim. I hate to say this but I think that we all need to face the reality of the impact of this virus will have on humanity for months to come.

I feel like it's the situation of that VFR Pilot who continues to fly into deteriorating MVFR conditions, convinced that better weather is in just the next mile.




I feel like it's more like the gas crisis of the 70's. Created by the government...….so THEY could bail us out of it.

I don't remember which politician it was who said "we can't let a good crisis go to waste", or something like that.

[PaulDow]

I listened to that briefing, and it seems like the reason the popular green tram was eliminated was because of it passing through an entrance gate. Security didn't like it. The passengers needed to show wrist bands, and it was impractical to check bags. I guess people weren't putting their 100ml liquids in their see through bag.

I think the solution to that is to do what US Customs does at some airports outside the country. The inspection is done at boarding. Then the secure tram can transition from the world of buses to the world of airplanes.

It looks like there's a reduction in total parking from 15,360 to 14,910 (-450). While the grey lot (4,500 cars) gets it's own bus line, brown, pink and yellow (5,500 cars) users have a long walk just to get to the museum bus. Reducing traffic on Waukau seems to be a major goal too.

I didn't know credit cards were accepted for parking last year. It seems they had a slow processing system though. I’m guessing communication was through the cell phone network which we know gets quite congested. Cash only now. No one asked my E-Z Pass question.

[Bill Greenwood]

"Security" whoever that is, should not run EAA. If and when EAA hires them, EAA should tell them what they want done and not the other way around.

[Wrongway Feldman]

After watching the Chairman Briefing - EAA AirVenture 2020 Parking & Transportation Webinar (https://www.eaa.org/videos/6142365633001)
I came away with three observations.

1. The 2019 Northwestern University Transportation Center study didn't recommend eliminating the green tram route.
2. The 2019 Northwestern University Transportation Center study recommended parking visitor's automobiles farther away from the event.
3. By increasing the cost of parking by $5.00 at the gate, will make people buy advanced parking passes online (https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/7508770/general-parking-oshkosh-eaa-airventure-oshkosh?_ga=2.227927704.464440488.1583159121-994353909.1566310915) to save $5.00. The reason: To park automobiles faster.

[FlyingRon]

3. By increasing the cost of parking by $5.00 at the gate, will make people buy advanced parking passes online (https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/7508770/general-parking-oshkosh-eaa-airventure-oshkosh?_ga=2.227927704.464440488.1583159121-994353909.1566310915) to save $5.00. The reason: To park automobiles faster.
Which would only work if they did it right. The advanced sale of wristbands doesn't do much for speeding up anything. Putting the infrastructure in place and assigning people to verify passes is a whole lot more involved than grabbing an Abe from the car passing in.

[Bill Greenwood]

I really haven't had much of an opinon about Norhwestern U., but if they want to screw up Airventure which is none of their concern, I hope Ohio State beats them by say about 50 pts.

[Airmutt]

That’s about as dirt stupid as you can get and EAA bought into it. Absolutely unbelievable.

I’ve been buying a pass for a number of years now and I can absolutely tell you it doesn’t help. Why? Doesn’t matter when you’re stuck in line with cash paying folks. If this is gonna be EAA’s approach then they need to figure out how to fast track the prepaid folks from from daily cash payers. Been saying this for years but no one seems to listen. Guess that is also a too advanced concept for Northwestern.

[CHICAGORANDY]

That’s about as dirt stupid as you can get and EAA bought into it. Absolutely unbelievable.

I’ve been buying a pass for a number of years now and I can absolutely tell you it doesn’t help. Why? Doesn’t matter when you’re stuck in line with cash paying folks. If this is gonna be EAA’s approach then they need to figure out how to fast track the prepaid folks from from daily cash payers. Been saying this for years but no one seems to listen. Guess that is also a too advanced concept for Northwestern.

I travel (well at least before the Covid-19 shelter in place stuff I did) on Toll Roads and over the Chicago Skyway toll bridge. I have an I-Pass/EZ Pass in my car to speed up getting thru the toll booths. EVERY time I go there WILL be at least one EZ PASS ONLY lane completely blocked by some idgit without a device who can't read and needs to pay with cash. So, will a separate lane for Parking Pass Only AirVenture visitors work? Not bloody likely says I.

[robert l]

The one time I had to walk through the main gate, because I was staying at Sleepy Hollow, I had my prepaid receipt and there was a seperate line for prepaid folks. It was fast and easy.
Bob

[CHICAGORANDY]

The one time I had to walk through the main gate, because I was staying at Sleepy Hollow, I had my prepaid receipt and there was a seperate line for prepaid folks. It was fast and easy.
Bob
For walk-in traffic? Sure. For lines of cars looking to get into a parking lot? Good luck wit dat.

[skyfixer8]

I watched that briefing, my thought was have any of the briefers there ever gotten out of headquarters and actually walked the grounds during Airventure ? To do a study from kids who while supposedly videotaping the activities were on cell phones or playing games on I pad (Yes, I saw this several times) I think was a mistake IMHO. Why didn t they ask the people who actually work there for opinions ? Would have gotten better info.

Bill L

[krw920]

I watched that briefing, my thought was have any of the briefers there ever gotten out of headquarters and actually walked the grounds during Airventure ? To do a study from kids who while supposedly videotaping the activities were on cell phones or playing games on I pad (Yes, I saw this several times) I think was a mistake IMHO. Why didn t they ask the people who actually work there for opinions ? Would have gotten better info.

Bill L
Well Bill, I know Jill, and I know for a fact that she is out and about during the whole convention.

[Airmutt]

I travel (well at least before the Covid-19 shelter in place stuff I did) on Toll Roads and over the Chicago Skyway toll bridge. I have an I-Pass/EZ Pass in my car to speed up getting thru the toll booths. EVERY time I go there WILL be at least one EZ PASS ONLY lane completely blocked by some idgit without a device who can't read and needs to pay with cash. So, will a separate lane for Parking Pass Only AirVenture visitors work? Not bloody likely says I.

Ya just can’t fix stupid.

[skyfixer8]

This was MHO which probably doesn t mean much. I don t know any of the people on the webinar, Thanks for the update.

[izznsky]

After listening to the webinar, I didn't hear anything on how much general admission traffic will exit on 113 and head north on Poberezny to the lots. I come in to camp Scholler with a rather large unit and am frustrated waiting in line for an hour or more behind general admission vehicles to get to camper registration. Maybe I will have to come during the week before to avoid some traffic.

[Dave Stadt]

After listening to the webinar, I didn't hear anything on how much general admission traffic will exit on 113 and head north on Poberezny to the lots. I come in to camp Scholler with a rather large unit and am frustrated waiting in line for an hour or more behind general admission vehicles to get to camper registration. Maybe I will have to come during the week before to avoid some traffic.

Pretty sure it was said that if the south bound Route 44 exit backs up it will be closed and traffic will be sent south to the Route 26 exit. Pretty sure the south bound Route 44 exit has been closed at times the past couple of years. The Route 44 exit has backed up onto 41 which is a very real safety concern and the State Police wanted something done about it. That area is a problem as you have east and west bound Route 44 traffic and north and south bound Route 41 traffic and three lights to get through.

[Airmutt]

Watched the webinar last night.......
I got the same thing out of it, but IMO that only moves the problem from Exit 116 down to Exit 113. Several years ago when the Blue Angles performed southbound existing traffic backed up almost to Lake Butte de Morts. I was traveling north from Exit 116 can’t imagine what traffic coming up from Milwaukee was like. Still sticking to my guns, until they separate cash from prepaid the log jam entering the lots is still going to exist.

They said that this was just Phase I. They should have shared more details on the grand plan; probably would have saved a lot of grumbling from us members. EAA can keep shuffling the dominos but in reality unless something major changes they are truly land locked.

They are are obviously trying to move the congestion off Waukau. Adding more parking along the west side of Poberezny helps but it puts more pressure on the museum shuttle line. Not a single word was said about increasing service, hmm. And it increases the foot traffic trying to cross Poberezny which in turns slows down traffic. Just a little nuance the study seems to overlook, again hmm. How about a temporary foot bridge over Poberezny?? The presentation did not address impacts created by Sleepy Hollow or the gypsy lots.

Glad to see they’re improving access to the Gray lot. At least there they’ve establishing a dedicated shuttle route using a lane on Waukau.

Not happy about losing the Blue Lot for general parking. I think they total misunderstand the vehicle problem. Parked vehicles inside the fence is NOT the problem. The number of scooters, golf carts and ATVs running all over the place is THE problem. Also seems that EAA is bending over backwards for the vendors at the expense of general membership who park.

I also now understand why the Green tram line got nixed. Based on other comments on this forum they probably should have thought how to keep the route inside the fence vs killing the route. I’m a walker so it really doesn’t impact me.

Not sure why EAA is so vested in the Northwestern study. Sure would have been nice if they had asked for some EAA membership peer review inputs. It’s painfully obviously neither the EAA staff or Northwestern have any firsthand experience on general admission parking. Personal observations based on 40+ years of attending.

[lkorona]

"I also now understand why the Green tram line got nixed. Based on other comments on this forum they probably should have thought how to keep the route inside the fence vs killing the route. I’m a walker so it really doesn’t impact me."

Could you tell us why you now understand? Was it something about access at the gate? Were folks getting through without a wrist band? Every time I've been on the green tram you needed to show your wrist band to the person at the gate.

[Airmutt]

Sure, the Green Line went outside the fence to the Bus Park. When it returned EAA had to perform a bag check as mandated by security requirements and of course also a band check to ensure all aboard had paid for attendance. It was viewed as taking too long.

I think they could and should rethink this by creating a bump out to put the Green Line Bus Park turnaround inside the controlled area. Then the security checks could be accomplished prior to boarding. Problem solved??? Just one crusty guy’s opinion.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Hey, I was a conductor on the Greem tram now and then - I instructed all passengers to show the 'guard' in the little shack their wristband as we passed.
As they did I also verified everyone had one.

Can't speak to the value of any 'bag checks', since it is the norm to land aircraft and park them on the grounds, inside the fenced area, without bag searches or airplane searches.

I can assure anyone interested that I do NOT understand why they have chosen to nix the valued service. ALL the ridership sure seemed to appreciate it.

[Airmutt]

Randy, It seems everyone has a different point of view, the volunteers, the users, EAA staff and of course the Northwestern transportation study. Just looking from the outside in but to me the volunteers and users didn’t get much of
“vote”.

[Wrongway Feldman]

"I also now understand why the Green tram line got nixed. Based on other comments on this forum they probably should have thought how to keep the route inside the fence vs killing the route. I’m a walker so it really doesn’t impact me."

Could you tell us why you now understand? Was it something about access at the gate? Were folks getting through without a wrist band? Every time I've been on the green tram you needed to show your wrist band to the person at the gate.

They never did a bag check when entering the gate (31) on the Green tram route. The tram would slow down, security at the gate would say' Lets see your wrist bands and that was it.

If you had to buy a wrist band the green tram route was not much help because you had to go over to the main gate. Then you would enter the grounds there.

The green tram did come in handy at the end of the day to get back to the bus park.
They could fire it up at the end of the day. One way west.


Can't speak to the value of any 'bag checks', since it is the norm to land aircraft and park them on the grounds, inside the fenced area, without bag searches or airplane searches.

I can assure anyone interested that I do NOT understand why they have chosen to nix the valued service. ALL the ridership sure seemed to appreciate it.

Two good points. If some bad actors wanted to do something bad, there is plenty of chain link fencing to crawl over at night. Someday they will start searching landing aircraft.


Randy, It seems everyone has a different point of view, the volunteers, the users, EAA staff and of course the Northwestern transportation study. Just looking from the outside in but to me the volunteers and users didn’t get much of
“vote”.

Northwestern transportation study didn't recommend eliminating the Green tram route, Security did.
The terrorist have won. We changed are behavior do to the fact that we believe its better to be safe than sorry.
Rather than trust. Are we really Free. There's a boogeyman in every bush.

[lkorona]

Sure, the Green Line went outside the fence to the Bus Park. When it returned EAA had to perform a bag check as mandated by security requirements and of course also a band check to ensure all aboard had paid for attendance. It was viewed as taking too long.

I think they could and should rethink this by creating a bump out to put the Green Line Bus Park turnaround inside the controlled area. Then the security checks could be accomplished prior to boarding. Problem solved??? Just one crusty guy’s opinion.

Thanks for the reply. I've taken the gran tram very often over the years, and never seen any real delays with the wrist band check, just hold up your arm for 10 seconds while the tram passes the gate. The bag check is something started just in the past few years, practically a worthless exercise in security drama theater, but again not a big deal in terms of flow.

in all I don't see what the big deal is.

[jbandstr]

I too am disappointed that the Green tram will not run any more. I used that one a lot. I never got a survey asking about the trams.

[ssteve1]

I too am disappointed that the Green tram will not run any more. I used that one a lot. I never got a survey asking about the trams.

I have filled out a lot of EAA Surveys (none on this topic, however). I know, stupid. On each survey there is a section near the bottom asking for comments. ON EVERY survey I ask them to acknowledge back to my email that they have read my survey. I have NEVER had one acknowledgement!. I have stopped wasting my time on their stupid placating surveys. They're going to do what they want.