New tram routes announced

[lkorona]

I see that new routes have been published

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/plan-your-eaa-airventure-trip/AirVenture-Site-Changes/New-Modified-Tram-Routes

What happened to the green tram that ran from the bus depot to the tram hub inside the grounds?

While it's not that far to walk from the tram hub to the bus depot, it was nice to take a the green tram at the end of a long day.

[CHICAGORANDY]

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?9455-Accessible-Parking-at-Airventure

It's being discussed in this thread - sadly it appears that Green has been eliminated.

[skyfixer8]

I would bet that a Cobuson bus stop will be installed at tower turn around.

[Mayhemxpc]

OK. Let's see how it works out. Nothing is perfect, but the two hubs may be an improvement when trying to catch a ride.

[CHICAGORANDY]

There have always been two tram hubs - one by the Tower and the other by the Hangar Cafe, in the Vintage area. I'm not exactly clear on the benefits gained by them being this much closer to each other? It will make the Blue route a long affair, which may be fun for those who just want a tram ride without ever getting off the thing?

[CHICAGORANDY]

I would bet that a Cobuson bus stop will be installed at tower turn around.

The new Hangar B turnaround 'depot' gives a good idea of the land footprint needed to put bus and tractor tram operations in close proximity. They truly are different logistical beasts even though they carry 'about' the same number of adults. A tractor tram almost can unload-load-depart before a bus even gets unloaded. The single door and tight stairway are time hungry choke points on a bus.
.

[lkorona]

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?9455-Accessible-Parking-at-Airventure

It's being discussed in this thread - sadly it appears that Green has been eliminated.

Thanks for the conformation, while it was not explicitly stated in the press release, it was notification by absence. I'm sure come July many will be still looking for the green tram!

Any guess as to why it was eliminated? As someone who stays in the dorms downtown, getting dropped off at the bus park, it was nice and easy to then hop on the green to get into the grounds.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Everytime I was at the Tower depot, and over the 9 days I conducted on Red or Yellow that was a whole bunch of times, it seemed to me that the Green route was VERY-VERY popular, especially in the afternoon when everyone gets weary of walking?

The announcement of these new changes for 2020 'seems' to suggest that EAA wants to make it 'easier' and more convenient to get to and from the distant Public Parking areas by school bus, at least to the Main Gate, which is not served by the tractor trams?


I'll be honest, my 71 yr old arthritic knees and long marches is not an ideal combination. lol

[CHICAGORANDY]

I do like the layout for the new Hangar B depot. Gets the passengers out of the busy roadway. Hopefully the signage folks will create some new large EZ to understand signs CLEARLY indicating which tram goes where and where to stand in line to wait for one? That was easily 50% of the questions asked constantly each year.

Remember how confusing it was the first time YOU came to AirVenture? I know I do, and poor or no signage is not the answer to the confusion.

[FlyingRon]

They moved the tower hub over between the exhibit buildings and scholler one year and THAT was an unmitigated disaster.

I've been after the EAA to make the tram signs useful for years. A simple "BOARD HERE FOR FORUMS, WARBIRDS, NORTH 40" etc... would cut out most of the questions and confusions.

[CHICAGORANDY]

skyfixer8 has posted that they plan to eliminate the stop on Vern at Vintage/Boeing Plaza too.

This is a copy of my post in another thread:


NO stop at the Vintage HQ/Boeing Plaza before the turn South? My opinion is that is ill-advised and potentially dangerous. IMHO - note IMHO - I worry that ALL the trams WILL have folks para-jumping off moving trams left & right at that corner slow turn. First they cancel the popular Green tram and now No stop at the VERY popular Boeing Plaza stop? I'm starting to get less and less impressed with the 'quality' of that transportation survey from Northwestern.





Hopefully wiser heads will prevail before AirVenture starts up?

[skyfixer8]

I asked that question and got response this morning. To address a security problem in that area (?) and to increase traffic flow on the grounds. She said transport to buss park will be available as needed.

[skyfixer8]

As I was driving several routes where survey was being done, all I saw was the students videotaping and listening to music. Never saw tham actually talk to anyone to get feeling of what people actually thought. not the way to do a survey.

[Auburntsts]

She said transport to buss park will be available as needed.

I wonder what that means -- IOW how exactly will it work? I don't ride the trams near as much as the shuttles but this whole tram business appears to be a classic EAA "ready-fire-aim", out of touch problem solving approach.

[CHICAGORANDY]

We could easily stop at the Vintage Restaurant? Or just before that? There's GOT TO BE someplace between the Hangar Cafe and the new Hangar B Depot where a stop can be created? Maybe one will be created by Monday afternoon after a few tram jumpers get injured or after all those folks the tram blows by start loudly complaining to the 'Powers that Be'?

[Auburntsts]

We could easily stop at the Vintage Restaurant? Or just before that? There's GOT TO BE someplace between the Hangar Cafe and the new Hangar B Depot where a stop can be created? Maybe one will be created by Monday afternoon after a few tram jumpers get injured or after all those folks the tram blows by start loudly complaining to the 'Powers that Be'?


Randy, as a long-term tram operator, do you have anyway to provide direct feedback to the EAA folks on this beyond what is available to us rank and file members?

[CHICAGORANDY]

I wonder what that means -- IOW how exactly will it work? I don't ride the trams near as much as the shuttles but this whole tram business appears to be a classic EAA "ready-fire-aim", out of touch problem solving approach.

Just spit-balling possible problem solving options......… Instead of the discontinued Green route, what if we create a new 'Pirate Flag' route that will use a tractor-tram combo and shuttle folks between the Control Tower Depot and the grassy area 150' past the current Bus Park Tower? That would be FANTASTIC I'm thinking. Just imagine the convenience to our GUESTS.

LOL

[L16 Pilot]

I'm 80+ and about the only time I ride the tram is from the Vintage area to the back 40 gate and catch a bus to Friar Tucks for a cool afternoon beverage. Otherwise I usually hoof it as there's a lot to see.

[PaulDow]

I wonder if different pulling vehicles should be looked into. I seem to recall that the company that lets EAA use the Deere tractors puts a 100 hour use limit on them. Would old airplane tugs make a decent tram puller? Maybe some could be acquired from the funds generated by the extra $5 parking fee this year. I know we’re only looking at a 1 week annual event, but there are also hundreds of thousands of individual people trips coming in from those distant parking lots.

[Auburntsts]

Just spit-balling possible problem solving options......… Instead of the discontinued Green route, what if we create a new 'Pirate Flag' route that will use a tractor-tram combo and shuttle folks between the Control Tower Depot and the grassy area 150 past the current Bus Park Tower? That would be FANTASTIC I'm thinking. Just imagine the convenience to our GUESTS.


That's a good suggestion but I'd like to know more about EAA's actual plan based upon the somewhat cryptic response provided to Skyfixer8.

[Bill Greenwood]

Randy, did anyone in management ever ask your informed opionion on this? Do you have any influence on changing any of this. Please see my last post under the other topic on this subect. Thanks

[CHICAGORANDY]

No, never saw anyone asking opinions of anyone, let alone me. And yes, EAA does have my e-mail address had they wanted input from the likes of me - lol

As but a miniscule decrepit corny-joke-telling cog in the grand tram system machine, I have precisely zero influence upon it, beyond squeaking. I do opine that 'common folk' are going to be woeful P.O.'d when they discover the Green is gone and there's no Vintage tram stop, survey be darned.

[krw920]

No, never saw anyone asking opinions of anyone, let alone me. And yes, EAA does have my e-mail address had they wanted input from the likes of me - lol

As but a miniscule decrepit corny-joke-telling cog in the grand tram system machine, I have precisely zero influence upon it, beyond squeaking. I do opine that 'common folk' are going to be woeful P.O.'d when they discover the Green is gone and there's no Vintage tram stop, survey be darned.

I see a lot about routes in the release, but nothing about stops or lack there of. Where are you getting information that there will be no tram "stops" at Vintage?

[skyfixer8]

krw, that would be me. Been driving for 16 years. I asked the tram chairman earlier this weekend and that is the answer he gave me. We have all given the chairpersons our input on how to improve things based on what we run into. All they can do is report during meetings in the "crystal palace", Long walk from Hanger Cafe to Vintage. Gonna hate to see what happens with people jumping off tram as we make the corner onto Vern.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Realize that those of us who actually work all those 6 hour shifts on the various tram routes every day often have zero input into decision making concerning tram operations. We just follow the directions we will be given at our Saturday pre-show briefing in July.

[Airmutt]

Parking and people movement has been a problem for quite some time. Not sure how the concept of attempting to cram more vehicles and more people into essentially a fixed sized area and not expecting something to give is a good idea. Attempting to fix a broken system just yields a garbage in - garbage out solution and nobody is happy.

Probably would have been better to develop a survey and poll its members as to their expectations of tram service and parking. I’m not a traffic engineer but developing a survey to acquire data to revamp the system is just not that hard. For example, is there demand for an express route from Ultralights to Warbirds? If so, did the level of response warrant?
Perhaps EAA also needs to consider tram fees. How much are people willing to pay for say a day pass? Has anyone asked?

Parking is a bit tougher. Parking rates for the same dusty or muddy fields continue to rise but quality of service remains flat. Maybe tiered parking rates based on location to main gate? Reserved lot for advanced online permit sales? I find shuttle buses too slow to load and unload and there is no dedicated route from the outer lots to the main gate to enhance transit time. EAA has become landlocked. Perhaps a significantly reduced price or even free remote parking options should be explored?

But I’m only one voice.

[FlyingRon]

I'm 80+ and about the only time I ride the tram is from the Vintage area to the back 40 gate and catch a bus to Friar Tucks for a cool afternoon beverage. Otherwise I usually hoof it as there's a lot to see.
Not necessary anymore because the EAA sold out and sells beer all over the grounds now. Never saw a fist fight on the flight line before that change.

[GeorgeP]

...Never saw a fist fight on the flight line before that change.Fist fight?! :eek: What the....? What could precipitate a fist fight at an airshow? We're all there for a good time.

[Kyle Boatright]

Not necessary anymore because the EAA sold out and sells beer all over the grounds now. Never saw a fist fight on the flight line before that change.

I'd also lay blame on making it a point of emphasis to draw in non-eaa visitors. I understand why EAA does that, but there were bound to be consequences.

[CarlOrton]

I would love to use the trams, but I almost never do. I hurt my back pretty bad several years ago, and I'm usually limping around. It usually hurts standing in one place more than limping, so I just "man up" and push on.

I guess my timing is just bad, as whenever I *really* want or need to take a tram, regardless of the point on the route, there's always a line. And coincidentally, once one tram leaves, there's no clue when the next one will arrive. Perhaps it was better last year - I didn't even try, but I think I recall Randy or someone noting that more trams were going to be available.

In previous years, we've always stayed in the dorms, so the bus park was a daily evil. I'd limp past the tower tram HQ, but the green tram line was so long I figured I could beat them to the bus park, even limping! As those of you who take the city bus know, your spot in line is important on *if* you'll get on a bus or be left standing another 20 mins trying to guess when the next one will show up!

I no longer get to visit many of the areas on the grounds as it's too painful. I volunteer in the workshops quite a bit, and I'm "into" E-AB stuff, so I'm usually around the kit vendor area, in forums (fora?), or in the exhibit barns looking for stuff for my project. I'm fine with that, but sometimes I'd just like to ride around and see the HBC, N40, and vintage areas.

[L16 Pilot]

Yeah! But the flight line isn't air conditioned and Friar Tucks is...!!!!

[FlyingRon]

I'd also lay blame on making it a point of emphasis to draw in non-eaa visitors. I understand why EAA does that, but there were bound to be consequences.

The EAA has been drawing non-"flying" (I won't even limit it to non-EAA) visitors for over 20 years. I remember back in the 90's when to get to the "flight line" you needed to be an EAA or other qualified member. Even then that wasn't a good filter on the dolts who would do stupid things.
I didn't see the really bad rowdiness until the cafes started selling beer.

On the other hand, many of the things I've pressed for over the years have been adopted (probably not because I suggested them). You can gripe about golf carts now, but it is way improved over what it used to be with not only carts but CARS plowing through show center. This tram move is likely to be a disaster for this year, but it will end up being fixed in the long run. Oddly enough between Pelton's office and the heads of Vintage, Warbirds, and IAA, EAA management is pretty responsive and caring. A couple years back when we had a bit of turmoil going on down south I got emails from Pelton and personal phone calls from Connie Bowlin (head of Warbirds) and Michael Goulian (head of IAA) in response to emails sent to tehm.

[Bill Greenwood]

Friar Tucks allows smoking and if pretty much imc just to walk through there.

As for a having to be member to go on the flight line, I don't recall that. It may have been so, but I don't know how they checked it? I have been coming since 1982. I just recall the flight line being open to visitors in the morning and then about half hour before the airshow, a line was put out so the planes were on the runway side and that was now closed. I went to fly in the show one time and had an argument with a very young CAP cadet who told me I couldn't be near the plane. I finally just got in the plane and I didn't hear any more about it. Annoying, but just a small thing.

[Airmutt]

There was a time when the flight line was only open to members. Don’t remember when that changed. EAA was still pretty small. Suspect it was done to bolster membership. Not sure it was too successful. Folks would pony up the bucks for membership for the access but renewals were not there. Now we have the two tier rate system with no limitations.

[Auburntsts]

Friar Tucks allows smoking and if pretty much imc just to walk through there.
.

Maybe it depends on the time of day. We eaten there the past 5 years (typically around 5-6pm) and we didn't have any issues with smoke at all, even in the bar.

[krw920]

Maybe it depends on the time of day. We eaten there the past 5 years (typically around 5-6pm) and we didn't have any issues with smoke at all, even in the bar.

Smoking is ILLEGAL in ALL public buildings, restaurants and bars included and has been for at least 5 years, if not more.

[Auburntsts]

Smoking is ILLEGAL in ALL public buildings, restaurants and bars included and has been for at least 5 years, if not more.

Well that explains why we didn't have any smoke issues. Here in Florida, smoking is banned in restaurants but not stand-alone bars.

[FlyingRon]

Friar Tucks allows smoking and if pretty much imc just to walk through there.

As for a having to be member to go on the flight line, I don't recall that. It may have been so, but I don't know how they checked it? I have been coming since 1982. I just recall the flight line being open to visitors in the morning and then about half hour before the airshow, a line was put out so the planes were on the runway side and that was now closed. I went to fly in the show one time and had an argument with a very young CAP cadet who told me I couldn't be near the plane. I finally just got in the plane and I didn't hear any more about it. Annoying, but just a small thing.

It changed in the mid-90's. There used to be a short fence that was in line with the "Brown Arch" from Warbirds down to about where Vintage (Antique/Classic back then) and then it turned right across the road. To get through that fence you needed "flight line" credentials and to buy those you had to show some membership (EAA, AOPA, a pilot's license, something...). Didn't much help things actually other than keeping most of the walk-in lawn chairs back a bit.

[FlyinAdamBadger]

WOW! No more Green trams. How are the handicap going to get to to the EAA Aviation Museum? Walk from the end of the yellow route to the Bus Park drop off to get to the museum. The green route was used by how much traffic last year? Why eliminate a popular route?

I for one in my 25 year life have been using the Vintage Area stop for many occasions (easy access to Boeing Plaza, easy access to the Vintage Area and easy access to the airshow center that is straight out from the Vintage Barn). These are big mistakes that EAA did by eliminating this route and stops.

[Bill Greenwood]

Smoking might in theory be illegal INSIDE Friar Tucks, but just outside on the patio is a swarm of smokers and when customers or waitresses open the door it goes inside. I haven't been there in a few years,but I doubt if they have changed.
I was recently in Turkey, all the hotels say that they don't allow smoking. But the managers stand literly in the doorway to the office or lobby with the door open and smoke. I didn't seen any adult male there who was not smoking.
We have a state law here against animals inside restaurants, even on patios. It is widely ignored, some places even have bowls of water for dogs.

[L16 Pilot]

I've been going to Friar Tucks for at least 10 years and never had any issues with smokers. It's about the only place you can ride the bus and walk through the fence and get a good meal with an adult beverage. Did I also mention it's air conditioned (my tent isn't). I made my first trip to Oshkosh in either 1969 or 1970 whatever year the first Oshkosh fly in and I think I've only missed one. For me it's a three hour drive or 1 1/2 hour flight
in my "put put". It's correct that you had to have some kind of a pilot's license, etc. to get on the flight line during the early years. You also couldn't carry any beverage, etc. in and if I remember correctly we parked along the road between the large parking lot and present main gate. How thing have changed.

[Kyle Boatright]

I went to fly in the show one time and had an argument with a very young CAP cadet who told me I couldn't be near the plane. I finally just got in the plane and I didn't hear any more about it. Annoying, but just a small thing.

I've been yelled at by 14 year old's in CAP uniforms for crossing "lines" that were only marked with someone's imagination. Whoever is training some of those kids needs to give them a crash Dale Carnegie course.

[Mayhemxpc]

I've been yelled at by 14 year old's in CAP uniforms for crossing "lines" that were only marked with someone's imagination. Whoever is training some of those kids needs to give them a crash Dale Carnegie course.

Or maybe you can benefit from one. Part of that is trying to understand other people's motivation. The CAP cadets are trying to do what they have been told to do by the EAA flight line boss for that area. It is emphasized to them that this is about safety, which is kind of important. I have been stopped at least once or twice a year going to my plane. I have always found that a soft response, explaining that I am going to my plane is all that is needed. They are, after all, children, and doing the best that they can.

Aside from that, things are not as they once were. I could count on no one molesting my airplane while it was on the line. Recently that has not been true and I have had to jury rig a lock for the door. I am very grateful that someone is monitoring the "look but do not touch" signs.

[Kyle Boatright]

Or maybe you can benefit from one.

Dayuum.

You needed to be there. The kid was the 14 year old version of Ronald Lee Ermey. He needed better guidance as to how you deal with people. Hint - Oshkosh attendees are the best crowds in the world. If your opening action is to shout at them, you're doing it wrong.

[Bill Greenwood]

The CAP boy that told me not to go to my plane was not shouting, but he was also not listening when I told him I needed to fly the plane, obviously his instructions had been about security above all else and not common sense. I was not that upset, was not that busy, had time to be pretty relaxed that day. He wasn't there when I taxied back in and no one said any more about it to me.
I wonder if these kids get to do any flying or anything fun airplane wise, I see them mostly marching around. I think they are told not to talk to us. I have tried to visit with them a few times and they seem to want to keep to themselves.

[FlyingRon]

CAF or CAP? Two completely different organizations.

I got a lot of respect for the CAP my first time camping in the North 40 when we had a 70MPH windstorm come through at 2AM. As soon as it let up, the CAP was out there helping people reset their tents and any whose campsite was too far gone were moved to the CAP hangar to sleep there for the night. They also had hot chocolate going.

Years later when I was pressed into crowd control in Vintage when One-Eyed Jack crashed his plane (don't get me started on stupid crowds, people were jumping off moving trams to go try to rush the crowd line), we were still there after 9PM and hadn't eaten (we had dinner reservations in town and the restaurant agreed to stay open for us) and didn't know when we'd get released. Shortly there after the CAP kids marched in and relieved us.

[skyfixer8]

As a tram volunteer, I see a safety issue there. As we make turn, slowing down, people and kids jumping on and off while still moving.

[CHICAGORANDY]

As a tram volunteer, I see a safety issue there. As we make turn, slowing down, people and kids jumping on and off while still moving.
Since tram jumping at the Vern corner has happened EVERY year I've been a conductor even WITH the stop at Vintage, I can just about guarantee it will happen with alarming frequency on a host of runs IF they proceed with eliminating that particular stop. Each time tram-jumping happens the odds of an injury go up exponentially I'm thinking.

[Bill Greenwood]

Randy, tram operations should serve the needs of the passengers which includes being able to get off. We are not captives, even when you are trying to do a good job. If you come to a stop people should be able to exit. If I can climb up on my wing to service 5 fuel tanks I can step 2 feet off a tram. I did this one day and Brunhilda really had a fit and started screaming at me. It was like road rage and I don't doubt if she had a gun she would have pointed it at me. Thank God someone with some common sense, maybe you, got rid of that shrew. So many, most of the people at Oshkosh are nice, seem to like people and are there to have a good time, but she wasn't and wanted to make sure others didn't have fun either.
The tram going north for instance stops once just across from A an P root beer, which they call forurms. But is it only the workshops and the 10 or so forum buildings where most people go is quite a ways father to walk, not to mention homebuilt parking up to the runway. its frustrating to sit there while the tram drives right by where you really want to go and often even stops for traffic.

[skyfixer8]

Bill, reason no stop at forum buildings is because they don t want the tram noise or conductors talking on speakers. If memory serves, Tom Poberezny started that cause speakers were complaining.

[CHICAGORANDY]

The entire forum area is a 'tram quiet zone' - NO talking on the mike - and throughout the grounds we stop only at designated tram stops by design, none of which are in the forum area per the decision of whoever at EAA HQ makes such decisions.

If/when tram passengers feel the rules do not apply to the likes of them and they therefore are free to jump on and off trams whenever and wherever they please I can assure you chaos ensues and injuries WILL happen, needless injuries. That someone at EAA HQ plans to create passenger chaos by eliminating the Vern turn stop is IMHO quite unfortunate and simply need not be. Once one mope jumps on/off a tram, EVERYONE thinks it's OK for them to do so too.

But I just yap on a microphone and go where the John Deere pilot drags me. I ain't the King of Trams ner nuthin'. But I have in the past stopped a tram to throw off a jumper and will likely continue to do so in my role as a conductor responsible for passenger safety.

[Bill Greenwood]

RANDY, I don't see why anyone needs to talk on a mike just to stop at forums. i'll try to check with EAA also.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Best of luck with that. I don't recall there ever being a tram stop in the middle of the forum area? But if they make one, we'll surely stop there. lol

[FlyingRon]

Best of luck with that. I don't recall there ever being a tram stop in the middle of the forum area? But if they make one, we'll surely stop there. lol
Predates the CURRENT forum area (i.e., the old Sos brother farm).

[steve]

The entire forum area is a 'tram quiet zone' - NO talking on the mike
I'm pretty sure your tram speaker is quite a bit less noisy/invasive/bothersome than the jet biplane, T6 props and F35 flybys.

[skyfixer8]

Steve, you haven t ridden with Randy have you ? LOL

[CHICAGORANDY]

Hey now.....I resemble that remark - LOL

I can understand that had I been waiting all year to hear info or learn a new skill in a forum, routine tram info distractions would not be on my list of preferences. We DO use the mike to announce every stop, instruct passengers, mention the next stop and then tell the tractor driver to proceed. I can well appreciate that having that happen several times an hour could be annoying to forum presenters and participants.

[Bill Greenwood]

I put two good jokes on here for Randy as an example, but someone for some reason took them off. And no they weren't dirty.

[Ronald Franck]

I, for one, am glad to see the elimination of the Hangar Cafe turnaround. Yes, the Blue route will be a little longer, but a lot less chaotic. The Yellow route will be unusually short, but with lots of riders coming from the campground buses it makes good sense to have a turnaround near Theater In the Woods and everyone there will get a shot at a seat on the tram. Good job, EAA!
I do agree that a tram stop should be included near Vintage, perhaps once the tram has made the turn at that corner. It's simply a popular destination.
A "silent" tram stop close to Forums would be fantastic. Give the tram conductor a light gun to communicate with the driver. LOL
Randy can use sign language to tell jokes at Forum Central.

[Bill Greenwood]

Randy, no one has to get off a tram while its moving, but if they are stopped in traffic or something should be able to. You talk about "injuries" but in my 38 years of coming to EAA, I have never seen an injury from this, how many do you claim there are? And I am sure you have many more hours of riding than I do. One question, think of how "normal" you might be if you didnt have 20 years? of breathing those diesel fumes? And did you invest all your salary all those years or blow it on beer and cheese curds?