Your wishlist for Oshkosh 2020

[GeorgeP]

G'day everyone,

I'm making my fourth pilgrimage to Oshkosh, from Australia, and this year promises to be a big one. It's the 75th anniversary of the end of WWII plus the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Britain. There are probably more significant anniversaries but I'm not a great student of history.

I have a number of WWII types on my bucket list that I'd love to see at this year's event and I'd like to hear some of yours, please. Here are mine:

1. P-47 Thunderbolt
2. P-39 Aircobra
3. P-63 Kingcobra
4. Ju-52
5. Me-262 Swallow
6. Bf-109
7. I-16 Rata
8. Fw-190 Butcher Bird
9. C-46 Commando
10. I-153 Chaika

My wish list is a little ambitious, I know, but I live in hope that at least a few will make it. Not many sleeps to go until the big week. :D

[robert l]

Pretty impressive list George, I'll add a couple of those to my list also. The P-47, Bf-109 and the Fw-190 are a few I would like to check out. I've been up close and personal with some of my other favorites, of course the P-51 and F4U Corsair. I have had the pleasure of taking a ride in a B-17 back in '07 in Elko, Navada, the Ford Tri Motor at AirVenture in 2018 and a New Standard Biplane at Sun N Fun one year. As far as my main Bucket List this year, I want to actually fly into A/V.
Bob

[CHICAGORANDY]

Hats off and a sincere "Good Onya Mate" to all those like yourself who make the journey to Oshkosh each year from such far-reaching points on the globe. It is no small feat. When conducting on the trams I do regularly mention my past rides on the Tri Motor as some of the best $$ I've spent at AirVenture. A true time machine and a chance to be an active participant in living aviation history.

I'm a fan of the B-25 and the C-47.

[troy_m]

I tried to get my first ride on the Tri Motor in 2019, but didn't have any luck getting in. Hopefully 2020 will be the year!

[Bill Greenwood]

1. A safe week
2. A Break From Jet Noise
3. Good cool weather

[CHICAGORANDY]

Bill - A GREAT 'Top Three' list. And as to #2 - all that pricey performance noise at positively dangerous levels gets mighty weary, mighty quickly for me too. But thanks for the reminder - time to place an order with Amazon for some new Howard Leight headband earplugs. I wear them around my neck ready to deploy almost all the time I'm on the grounds.

[Floatsflyer]

2. A Break From Jet Noise

....except for the Snowbirds! (said without a hint of bias, predisposition, prejudice or partiality):>)

[CHICAGORANDY]

The Snowbirds are actually pretty mild in the noise department if my aging memory serves? Not jets of course but the Shell team is a noise offender of the 1st order and that dang loose bowel meat stick biplane with the completely unnecessary jet engine gets a hate nod from me, right up there with that obnoxious Yak-110 needless noisemaker.

Maybe in truth I've just finally become my dream person? A grumpy curmudgeonly geezer? I always root for Scrooge to stay the same after the ghosts visit - LOL

[krw920]

Don't forget the Rhino Demo team will be there! At least there will be a little bit of noise! As many of you that don't love it there are of us that do!

[CHICAGORANDY]

Don't forget the Rhino Demo team will be there! At least there will be a little bit of noise! As many of you that don't love it there are of us that do!

And that my friends is why that ice cream joint sells all them flavors, not everyone likes chocolate or vanilla. - lol It is also what keeps ear protection companies thriving. I DO dearly hope that AirVenture visitors with children or pets bring appropriate hearing protection for them at least. If one is within a block of the flight line it can be downright painful.

[Bill Greenwood]

Sustained noise of over 90db damages your hearing. I don't want to listen to that any more than I want to walk into a bar where it is blaring 98db. Most of the planes you can decide to experience them or not, that is if you don't like a Cirrus you don't have to look at it or climb in it. Not so with jet acts, they make so much noise (and pollution,) that you cant hear a presentation at a forum or just enjoy the conventionI enjoy seeing the B-17s fly over but they don't interfere with everything else. Jet noise has all the class of rap music. If you made a parallel of art, it would be like walking into a great art museum and having strobe lights.
EAA last year put the jet acts on the own day, at the end of the week so you could take them or leave them and I appreciate that. Or have them fly the night show.
Tastes vary, but in many cases the jets aren't the planes of history like the Mustangs or C-47s, they are often strange looking and mostly characterized by noise. One exception is the F-86 that everyone says flies great.

[Mark17]

I have been Waiting to See the P-47 Thunderbolt At Oshkosh for a long time. I truly hope they have one this year. Two would be even better! The F-22 Raptor Demo Team is next on the list. Pure American Dominance! Awesome! The A-10 Demo Team is great as well! Would love to see Fifi and Doc together again. My dream is to see a Blackbird again. Don’t think it’s in the cards but it would be amazing! B-1 again would be amazing too.

[cjohngraham]

XP-82
F-100
no rain

[Kyle Boatright]

XP-82
F-100
no rain

No Corona virus.

[rwanttaja]

I have a number of WWII types on my bucket list that I'd love to see at this year's event and I'd like to hear some of yours, please. Here are mine:

1. P-47 Thunderbolt...

Come to Arlington...shot this a couple of years back.

http://www.wanttaja.com/P47.JPG

Ron Wanttaja

[GeorgeP]

i have been waiting to see the p-47 thunderbolt at oshkosh for a long time...+1


come to arlington...shot this a couple of years back. *drool* Nice photo, Ron.

[gmatejcek]

1. A safe week
2. A Break From Jet Noise
3. Good cool weather


Hmmm.... Be careful what you ask for! My first convention, we woke up with frost on the inside of the tent....

With regard to the wish list, I've been fortunate to see all but two up there. What I would add is the IL-2 Sturmovik that has been trying to make it off and on for several years.

[Bill Greenwood]

If you were talking only of weather extremes, which would you prefer, hot or cold? The only time I have ever seen 40 degrees Celsus on a thermometer IN THE SHADE, was one year at Oshkosh. It was too hot to do anything, hurt to walk into the sunlight. As for frost, there are some cool mornings, but even then if the sun is out it will warm up to ok by 10 oclock.

[robert l]

If you were talking only of weather extremes, which would you prefer, hot or cold? The only time I have ever seen 40 degrees Celsus on a thermometer IN THE SHADE, was one year at Oshkosh. It was too hot to do anything, hurt to walk into the sunlight. As for frost, there are some cool mornings, but even then if the sun is out it will warm up to ok by 10 oclock.

I'm from South Carolina and AirVenture is the only time and place I've gotten sun poisoning.

[Auburntsts]

My wish is for a dry Osh. We pretty much bring clothes for 4-seasons so the temps are what they are although personally I’d rather sweat than freeze. We’re “glamping” this year in a rented RV vs tent camping next to the plane so we’ll have a way to escape any temperature extremes at will.

[Airmutt]

I think Bill is talking about the summer of 2012 which pretty near record heat. Wisconsin summers are usually pretty darn nice compared to the south. The temperature extremes are pretty wild for July with a record high of 107 F and a record low of 24 F (WHAT!?!?). Well, at least there has been no snow in July. :eek:

Surprised no one has said a knucklehead free Fisk approach.

[Bill Greenwood]

Might have been 2012, cant recall, but I was at that fish restaurant at the southwest corner of Lake Winnebago and standing in the waiting line, IN THE SHADE, under the roof overhang, and there was a thermometer on the wall and it read 40* C, plus a little. I grew up in the south and bought a plane in Phoenix which of course gets that hot as a routine, but I m not out in it there, and the humidity that day made it worse.
We've had some nice cool weather last few years.
As for the Fisk arrival, mainly I wish people would quit complaining about how bad it is. Just slow to 90 and follow the plane ahead, and listen. Or buy a T-6 and come in the other route by following the rules for that side.

[Auburntsts]

Might have been 2012, cant recall, but I was at that fish restaurant at the southwest corner of Lake Winnebago and standing in the waiting line, IN THE SHADE, under the roof overhang, and there was a thermometer on the wall and it read 40* C, plus a little. I grew up in the south and bought a plane in Phoenix which of course gets that hot as a routine, but I m not out in it there, and the humidity that day made it worse.
We've had some nice cool weather last few years.
As for the Fisk arrival, mainly I wish people would quit complaining about how bad it is. Just slow to 90 and follow the plane ahead, and listen. Or buy a T-6 and come in the other route by following the rules for that side.

That’s the rub— people don’t slow to 90, or worse don’t maintain 90 or altitude or follow the rules. Otherwise it’s just peachy. I missed the last 2 years of utter fiasco by coming in IFR.

[L16 Pilot]

I agree on the Fisk arrival. Of course there's always some jerk who can't follow the rules (or never read them). On the program in general I could do with less 'flip/flops' and announcers hyping everything. Of course as a'vintage guy" I like vintage fly bys. Not to mention watching the cross wind arrivals (isn't there always a cross wind?)

[Bill Greenwood]

Well, Todd that's the way "Mac" does it, fly on an Ifr flight plan so most everybody else has to get out of your way. Myself, if I get too old to fly in vfr, I will probably come by airliner, did that once, or car, had to do that a couple of times.
If you go to Airventure and the essence of the whole event, the whole week, is a few minutes on the Fisk arrival where some other pilots did not fly it perfectly, I think you need to drop by our state for some buds. When you drive a car, you have to look out for others who may not fully stop at every stop sign or drive the speed limit. It's part of it.

[Auburntsts]

Well, Todd that's the way "Mac" does it, fly on an Ifr flight plan so most everybody else has to get out of your way. Myself, if I get too old to fly in vfr, I will probably come by airliner, did that once, or car, had to do that a couple of times.
If you go to Airventure and the essence of the whole event, the whole week, is a few minutes on the Fisk arrival where some other pilots did not fly it perfectly, I think you need to drop by our state for some buds. When you drive a car, you have to look out for others who may not fully stop at every stop sign or drive the speed limit. It's part of it.

You don’t seem to be aware of the details of the arrivals last year and in 2018– IOW you don’t know what you’re talking about. It was waaay more than a few bad eggs gumming up the works. As for my IFR arrivals, again you don’t have a clue. When I arrived it was MVFR one year and IFR the next. I had slot reservation both times IAW with the NOTAM and didn’t put anybody out by staying IFR all the way. In the 3 years prior to that I was IFR Enroute but cancelled 60 miles out and joined the VFR arrival, again per the NOTAM.

so save the lecture and recommendations for someone else.

[Bill Greenwood]

Yes. Todd must be that I am unaware of the details of the arrival. I am a slow learner , but have been coming every year since 1982, all but a few flying in. My co pilot these last two years has also been flying in for some time, and he is one of the parking volunteers. Im pretty simple, like most of the other 10,000 pilots flying in, I dont have a slot. If the weather is imc we stop or divert somewhere like Appleton or Madison. Othwerwise we go to the NE corner of that lake and find Ripon and follow the tracks to Fisk and on to Osh. If there is a plane ahead we follow it. I am not really aware of the ifr procedures other than I dont want to fly low over the water on the approach to 27.
I think we really ought to have a 2 week convention , one week for you and Mac and the jets arriving ifr and the 2nd week for the ordinary folks.

[Auburntsts]

Yes. Todd must be that I am unaware of the details of the arrival. I am a slow learner , but have been coming every year since 1982, all but a few flying in. My co pilot these last two years has also been flying in for some time, and he is one of the parking volunteers. Im pretty simple, like most of the other 10,000 pilots flying in, I dont have a slot. If the weather is imc we stop or divert somewhere like Appleton or Madison. Othwerwise we go to the NE corner of that lake and find Ripon and follow the tracks to Fisk and on to Osh. If there is a plane ahead we follow it. I am not really aware of the ifr procedures other than I dont want to fly low over the water on the approach to 27.
I think we really ought to have a 2 week convention , one week for you and Mac and the jets arriving ifr and the 2nd week for the ordinary folks.

It doesn’t matter how many years you’ve flown in. If you don’t know the details of the past two years then your opinion is worthless. I flew the VFR arrival in 15, 16, and 17 without issue. In 18 and last year the weather was lousy so we stayed on our clearance all the way in IAW the NOTAM. Something else you seem to be unaware of is OSH is governed by a Special Traffic Management Plan that requires IFR slot reservations for both IFR arrivals and departures. For arrivals there are only 4 slots per hour. 4 IFR arrivals per hour hardly constitutes a problem for ATC sequencing the VFR arrivals. So you can climb down off your high horse, curb the indignation, and go back to complaining about high summer temps.

[Bill Greenwood]

Todd , it will be a cold day in July before you dictate what I think or write. And I don't know how many ifr slots per hour there are and don't care at all. We both can agree that is is a good thing you are not down there on the Fisk arrival with all those others bad eggs "gumming things up."
I don't know about your flying, but you're great at quoting someone over and over.

[Airmutt]

Per The Old Farmers Almanac.....

April and May will be slightly warmer and rainier than normal. Summerwill be hotter and rainier than normal, with the hottest periods in late June, early to mid-July, mid- to late July, and mid-August. September and October will have above-normal temperatures and below-normal precipitation.

So it looks like it’s gonna be warmer and rainier than usual. Best of both worlds, oh fun. :eek:

[Auburntsts]

Well Bill you’re great at spouting opinions on subjects you no nothing about. So we both can agree to disagree and that it best to simply move forward at this point as neither is going to change the others position and the rancor back and forth serves no useful purpose.

[Mark17]

Come to Arlington...shot this a couple of years back.

http://www.wanttaja.com/P47.JPG

Ron Wanttaja Hi Ron! I would love to come to Arlington and see that! Beautiful shot! The P-47 is my favorite WWII fighter. Big Chief used to be up here in the Bob Pond Museum Planes of Fame but he moved the whole collection to Palm Springs. Broke my heart. Used to go almost every Saturday with my dad to see it. If I ever win the lottery I’m bringing the museum back home to MN! It would be great to see one at Oshkosh this summer!

[Bill Greenwood]

Todd, have we ever met? As for as I know, we don't know each other. Is there some underlying issue, that explains your animosity toward me that seems all out of proportion to our different attitude toward flying into Airventure? I think a forum is a good place for a discussion, but telling the other person that their ideas are false or they shouldn't have ideas is out there, long way from the norm.
And to clarify, I am not urging you to fly through bad weather, vfr or ifr. Two years ago when we found out that weather on Sat was not a good forecast we delayed leaving till Sun., still had to dodge some weather enroute. And last year when we found out it was backed up at Fisk, we diverted vfr. If anyone else was in a Citation or something like that, I assume they would come in ifr or the other procedure from the island in Winnebago.

And I have no interest in changing your opinion, even if possible. If you don't want to be down at Ripon-Fisk vfr then its best for all if you do it your way. You haven't said what plane you are in.

[GeorgeP]

C'mon boys & girls, let's get back on topic. What's on your wish list for aircraft types at this year's Oshkosh? It is a significant WWII commemoration year, so let's aim high!

[MEdwards]

My wish is that the warbird crowd try to outdo their spectacular effort 25 years ago when, at the end of the huge Saturday warbird show, there were more than 200 planes over the field, various directions various altitudes, at the same time. Beautifully choreographed and the most impressive aircraft display I have ever seen.
Mike E

[GeorgeP]

My wish is that the warbird crowd try to outdo their spectacular effort 25 years ago when, at the end of the huge Saturday warbird show, there were more than 200 planes over the field, various directions various altitudes, at the same time. Beautifully choreographed and the most impressive aircraft display I have ever seen.
Mike EThat's what we're after! Thanks, Mike.

[Mayhemxpc]

If you were talking only of weather extremes, which would you prefer, hot or cold? The only time I have ever seen 40 degrees Celsus on a thermometer IN THE SHADE, was one year at Oshkosh. It was too hot to do anything, hurt to walk into the sunlight.

Bill, you need to travel more. Our Uncle Sam sent me several places that topped that (with the note that most thermometers top out at 40C). Maybe you are just too used to the low humidity in CO, where shade actually offers relief from the heat. (And, yes, I am jealous.)

[Mayhemxpc]

So getting back on track, what do I want this year?

1. My plane to be completely healthy and make the trip there, in the airshow, and back again (It has been down for various expensive things for the past 9 months)
2. The Farmer's Almanac to be wrong
3. To meet each of the regular posters here on this forum

[mcmurphy]

1. Less T-6 noise. I would rather hear 10 jets than one more T-6.
2. More ice cream stands.
3. Dry weather. Last years monsoons really put a crimp in our chapter camping plans.
4. Homebuilts other than RVs. I like RVs but they seem to be taking over the place.:cool:

[Bill Greenwood]

Mayer, before I volunteered to go anywhere for Uncle Sam I wanted a few more details, and anywhere that camels love is not for me. If I ever get to be Pres the only place we are going to war with is Norway, reputed to have the highest standard of living in the world. Never invade anywhere worse to live than your own country.

[Airmutt]

I spent time deployed to Norway. Every Atlantic storm goes to Norway to die. Spent a couple of months getting rained on and dealing with every stitch of clothing be wet and cold. Due to a supply SNAFU the field mess had to serve spam shaped into turkeys for Thanksgiving - it’s all they had. At least it beat field rats.

1. Decent weather
2. Better homebuilt attendance. Agreed, fewer RVs - Sorry Kyle.
3. A decent parking spot.
4. A chance to renew friendships with my AV friends.
5. Enjoy the week.
6. Maybe an opportunity to see Mayhem’s O-2 ;)

[Eric Gleason]

My big wishes:

Good weather for the Wednesday night airshow
Maybe talk a Beech 18 driver into letting me sit in the cockpit for a bit (haven't done that since I was about 5)
Firm enough ground that I don't have to worry about taxiing the 182RG in the grass

[Mayhemxpc]

Bill, Africa...you should really try Africa. Especially West Africa. Where I was, even the Nigerian officers were complaining about the heat and humidity. I did NOT volunteer. (The only overseas location I ever volunteered for was Germany.) On the warbirds side of things, it did get me first hand familiarity with former Warsaw Pact aviation! (And greatly appreciate NATO hardware.)

All in all, I can say that I truly appreciate the good things we have, much more so than I ever did before.

What else on my dream list? Rerouting the helicopter rides to someplace far away from the Warbirds parking and camping areas.

[Roger Janssens]

What's on your wish list for aircraft types at this year's Oshkosh? It is a significant WWII commemoration year, so let's aim high!

This is Oshkosh (or the EAA). I'm afraid there is no point in wishing for particular types, since the EAA don't book anything. We just have to wait and see what turns up. And while I believe some owners pre-announce their participation to the EAA (or Warbirds of America), those lists are kept secret. Same for the VAA.
Instead we just get vague announcements saying this year's airshow will be the airshow to end all airshows, and the airboss has finally come to their senses. And see, this marketing trick has worked again. After 13 visits I was not planning to return to Oshkosh until the C-97 was properly flying, but now I'm thinking I should not miss that airshow to end all airshows. So I may well still decide to fly across the Atlantic again, to probably watch the same P-51s and F4Us as every year again (with all due gratitude to the owners who bring their aircraft every year).
Of course I'd like to see the A-20 take part in the flying display, or the AF1 Connie that will apparently be ready by the summer. But the A-20 has already come and collected a prize, and the same owner's other aircraft don't take part in the flying displays either. Taking the Connie on a bombing run may be too fanciful even for the airboss. I'm not counting on any of the West Coast or East Coast Luftwaffe types, their owners just don't do Oshkosh. I'll settle for Rudy Frasca's radial-engined Fiat G.46 then, I've never seen that. (PS I know it's postwar, but it could fool the masses.)

Roger

[Kyle Boatright]

2. Better homebuilt attendance. Agreed, fewer RVs - Sorry Kyle.


I'm being repressed. (Todd too.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSbl16vTovU

[Airmutt]

Nicely played there young man :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[steve]

If we RV drivers went elsewhere for the week, Homebuilt camping and parking would be very empty indeed. The handful of Kitfoxes and Long EZ's would have the place for themselves. Corporate would be taking hundreds of unclaimed "I flew my HB to Oshkosh" beer mugs to the landfill. SOS Brothers could downsize to a Coleman tent. Our funny tram conductor could use last year's material. There would be open charging plugs in the HBC pavilion.
Gotta go.

[GeorgeP]

This is Oshkosh (or the EAA). I'm afraid there is no point in wishing for particular types, since the EAA don't book anything. We just have to wait and see what turns up. And while I believe some owners pre-announce their participation to the EAA (or Warbirds of America), those lists are kept secret. Same for the VAA.
Instead we just get vague announcements saying this year's airshow will be the airshow to end all airshows, and the airboss has finally come to their senses. And see, this marketing trick has worked again. After 13 visits I was not planning to return to Oshkosh until the C-97 was properly flying, but now I'm thinking I should not miss that airshow to end all airshows. So I may well still decide to fly across the Atlantic again, to probably watch the same P-51s and F4Us as every year again (with all due gratitude to the owners who bring their aircraft every year).
Of course I'd like to see the A-20 take part in the flying display, or the AF1 Connie that will apparently be ready by the summer. But the A-20 has already come and collected a prize, and the same owner's other aircraft don't take part in the flying displays either. Taking the Connie on a bombing run may be too fanciful even for the airboss. I'm not counting on any of the West Coast or East Coast Luftwaffe types, their owners just don't do Oshkosh. I'll settle for Rudy Frasca's radial-engined Fiat G.46 then, I've never seen that. (PS I know it's postwar, but it could fool the masses.)

Roger


G'day Roger, many thanks for your response and for articulating your realistic expectations about what aircraft types may attend this year. I did not realise that "the EAA did not book anything." From their communications for previous Oshkoshes, I presumed that they planned and negotiated the attendance and/or air show performance of specific types. I'm also sad to hear that none of the east- and west-coast German aircraft are likely to attend because, IMO, that would provide a greater dimension to this year's show. I imagine a Warbirds in Review that covered, for example, the P-51 along with one of the aircraft against which it fought. Likewise for the airshow component, as I witnessed at Duxford a couple of years ago. Late last year I wrote to the EAA (to a bloke named Larsen, who I believe has a role in the planning) and suggested this. Sadly, I did not receive any reply or confirmation of email receipt. :(

There a few 'common' types that I have yet to see, so I'm definitely crossing the Pacific for this year's show. If I find that it is the same old, same old, then I'll choose another one for next year. Old Warden and La Ferte-Alais always put on a good show.

[RC Gregg]

Troy: I believe you can buy your ride in advance for the tri motor. My son got a free pass for volunteering last year, and we got there early one morning and got a ride within 15 minutes. There is a pre paid window at the little tri motor shack that had no line. I didn't have my boarding pas yet, but they allowed me to buy at that window since my son had his, so we could get on the same ride.

[L16 Pilot]

Bill, No reflection on Norway but my grandparents and great grandparents left Norway between 1860 and 1875. There must have been a reason. Yup. I'm 100 % Norsky. I've done all the research. Unless, of course, unless the Vikings strayed some as they roamed the coasts.

[troy_m]

Troy: I believe you can buy your ride in advance for the tri motor. My son got a free pass for volunteering last year, and we got there early one morning and got a ride within 15 minutes. There is a pre paid window at the little tri motor shack that had no line. I didn't have my boarding pas yet, but they allowed me to buy at that window since my son had his, so we could get on the same ride.


Yes, I saw that on the website last year when I was ordering my admission pass, but didn't have the rest of my schedule finalized yet, so wasn't sure when I would be available for the Tri-Motor ride.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I guess #1 on my wish list for AirVenture 2020, and likely most everyone else's, is that it NOT get cancelled due to Covid 19? My State is pretty much on lockdown for any event of more than 250 people, the famous Chicago St Patty's Day parades and dyeing the river green are cancelled, and I just saw that the NRA Annual Convention in Nashville for mid-April is also cancelled.

The financial repercussions of this serious illness will be monumental and will likely affect us all, even if the actual virus doesn't. And it still remains a medical fact that most all who do get the virus will not suffer any more than any of the other 'traditional' seasonal viruses.

[Floatsflyer]

I guess #1 on my wish list for AirVenture 2020, and likely most everyone else's, is that it NOT get cancelled due to Covid 19.

If it doesn't get cancelled due to COVID-19, what else could cancel it?? This is the proverbial ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM right now and EAA is going super dark on this and being dead silent about this grim reality.

Ya know, if they don't cancel Oshkosh, it doesn't mean you have to go. If you take your health and well being seriously and want to mitigate your risk of exposure to this pandemic at one of the largest gatherings of human beings in a single place on the planet-600,000 plus-THEN DON'T GO!!!

The watch words are Social Distancing. Be smart, use common sense and heed the pleas of medical experts. Or don't.

[rwanttaja]

The financial repercussions of this serious illness will be monumental and will likely affect us all, even if the actual virus doesn't. And it still remains a medical fact that most all who do get the virus will not suffer any more than any of the other 'traditional' seasonal viruses.
Certainly. The problem is, those aged 60 or older (gulp) are more at risk...and that's almost a quarter of the pilot population.

http://www.wanttaja.com/ages.jpg
For events like AirVenture, this has even greater potential ramifications.

First, the FAA data I used is labeled "ACTIVE Civil Airman Statistics"... from which, we assume there are even more pilots who are considered "Inactive." These are likely to be older people. And not, necessarily, less interested in aviation.

Second, going to national events like AirVenture is, for most folks, an expensive proposition. That, again, is going to skew attendance towards the older set. Retirees with the time available, older folks with more disposable income.

I dislike the above two points, as they cannot be quantitized (no source to establish to what degree they're true). But it's true that the average age for pilots in the US is 44.9 years (from the same statistics file). What's more, lets look at the distribution among certificate holders:



Certificate

Average Age


Any

44.9


Student

33.1


Sport

57.9


Recreational

50.0


Private

49.0


Commercial

46.3


Airline Transport

51.0


Notice the average ages of the main EAA draw... Sport pilots, Recreational pilots, and Private pilots....are much higher. This is one item where I wish median statistics were available.

Ron Wanttaja

[Auburntsts]

Looks like they are going to postpone SnF until 5-10 May with a final decision on whether to proceed is targeted at April 17 per this article: https://www.lkldnow.com/coronavirus-...e-precautions/ (https://www.lkldnow.com/coronavirus-local-groups-announce-precautions/)

Nothing official on the SnF web or FB pages as of yet.

[Floatsflyer]

Thanks Todd, Ron W posted this SNF update on the Chapters topic site here as well.

[Auburntsts]

It's official now -- SnF has updated their FB page with the announcement confirming the dates in the article.

[Bill Greenwood]

Why is there so much reaction to this virus when, the flu is so much larger and kills so many more? No mass closures for flu that I can recall. EAA should wait a while to decide for Oshkosh, to see if outbreaks decrease or spread. I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread.

[Floatsflyer]

Why is there so much reaction to this virus when, the flu is so much larger and kills so many more?.

Because the mortality rate of Coronavirus/COVID-19 is 10 times greater than the flu. There is a ton of testing for the flu and there is a flu vaccine.

[rwanttaja]

Why is there so much reaction to this virus when, the flu is so much larger and kills so many more? No mass closures for flu that I can recall. EAA should wait a while to decide for Oshkosh, to see if outbreaks decrease or spread. I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread.

Because, for the large part, there are vaccines for influenza. You can find various sources for the lethality of COVID-19, but one expert testified to Congress that it was ten times as lethal a flu.

The problem is not to prevent folks from getting infected...that's nearly impossible. What they're trying to do is FLATTEN THE CURVE. They're trying to delay people from coming down with it to avoid swamping the health care system.

This illustrates the issue. The area under both curves (e.g., the total number of people affected) is the same. But there is a limit to how many people can be treated at once.
https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/sites/consumer/files/2020-03/Coronavirus_flattening_curve_1.jpg
Italy and China show what happens if the spread of the disease is not slowed. Hospitals in Italy are swamped, people on mattresses in hospital hallways, and medical personnel forced to triage new arrivals. People are dying, not because they couldn't be cured, but because there isn't the excess resources to save them. China even built new hospitals in just days; didn't help that much.

It's like having a hole in a boat that lets in 100 pounds of water a second. If you've got a pump that can dump 150 pounds a second, you're OK. But if the water starts coming in faster, something's going to have to go overboard to keep the ship afloat.

Ideally, you'd control the spread so fewer people get infected. Practically, the best you can do is to slow the rate of infection.

Ron "Damn it Jim, I'm an engineer, not a doctor" Wanttaja

[robert l]

Because the mortality rate of Coronavirus/COVID-19 is 10 times greater than the flu. There is a ton of testing for the flu and there is a flu vaccine.

Well there are 4 major different strains of the "flu" and it's a gamble as to which vaccination you will get to combat it. I had the shot in Oct. and got the flu in Dec. so it didn't really help. I'm not canceling any plans for anything as of yet, if A/V is going on, I plan to be there.
Bob

[Airmutt]

Bill, when you have the flu you have symptoms and you know it. With this virus you can be infectious up-to 14 days and have no symptoms, meanwhile you’re out and about possibly and unknowingly spreading the virus. Hence, the statement if you believe you have been exposed self quarantine for two weeks; by then if you’ve got it you will start displaying the symptoms. That’s why people are panic buying. The quarantine and recovery period can last for a number of weeks.

[Floatsflyer]

I'm not canceling any plans for anything as of yet, if A/V is going on, I plan to be there.
Bob

You are an adult and therefore solely responsible for all decisions taken.

If Oshkosh is not cancelled I'm confident the grounds will be much easier to navigate, the trams will have lots of room, the food line-ups will move very quickly and you will be able to roll a bowling ball down a exhibitor hangar isle and not hit anybody.

[rwanttaja]

I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread.
I just have to say that it's statements like this that make the Internet so much fun.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread.

I don't know that the sun rises in the West, I just know that it's true.

[Floatsflyer]

I just have to say that it's statements like this that make the Internet so much fun.

Ron Wanttaja

My response is not as stoic or forgiving as yours. When I hear stuff like that my full head of hair stands on end so I look like Don King.

[rwanttaja]

My response is not as stoic or forgiving as yours. When I hear stuff like that my full head of hair stands on end so I look like Don King.

C'mon, Floats, look at the bright side: Bill is obviously ready for a major role in American politics. He doesn't know the facts, he's not INTERESTED in the facts, but he's ready to make the big decisions.

Ron "Have they named a Coronavirus Czar, yet?" Wanttaja

[GeorgeP]

.... I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread. :eek: I suspect that not much thought preceded this comment.

[rwanttaja]

I have no facts as all but I don't think they are going to contiunue to spread.

:eek: I suspect that not much thought preceded this comment.
https://c-sf.smule.com/sf/s27/arr/b0/65/0b974172-787b-4e2f-9057-14b7bd406ab6.jpg

Ron "Where's Tevye when we need him? Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

Ya know, if they don't cancel Oshkosh, it doesn't mean you have to go. If you take your health and well being seriously and want to mitigate your risk of exposure to this pandemic at one of the largest gatherings of human beings in a single place on the planet-600,000 plus-THEN DON'T GO!!!

Or you can just listen to my hero, Brigadier General Frank Savage, USAAF:

https://youtu.be/y-Fg_c6jNTg?t=55

:-)

Ron "Sew them back on, sergeant" Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

The damage has been done.

Even if this virus burns itself out by July the downstream economic impacts, and I’m not talking about the DOW, have yet to be seen. As America continues to shutter to slow the spread, hundreds of thousands of peoples’ incomes are being effected. People will be forced to make choices; attendance levels and revenues generated could be severely impacted. AV revenues really bankrolls EAA, makes me wonder how badly they could be hurt. I doubt EAA management is gonna say it, but I’m sure they are worried and probably are considering the potential long term effects.

SNF will be a good marker. The shift in dates alone will have some impact in attendance alone. The infection rate will most likely be a key driver. Thinking there are lots of folks taking a wait and see attitude.

Based on what’s in the news maybe they should raffle off a case of TP instead an airplane, just thinking:confused:

[Floatsflyer]

https://c-sf.smule.com/sf/s27/arr/b0/65/0b974172-787b-4e2f-9057-14b7bd406ab6.jpg

Ron "Where's Tevye when we need him? Wanttaja

Excellent reference and analogy.

[Floatsflyer]

Or you can just listen to my hero, Brigadier General Frank Savage, USAAF:

https://youtu.be/y-Fg_c6jNTg?t=55

:-)

Ron "Sew them back on, sergeant" Wanttaja

I'm not getting this reference. Savage, despite all his bravado and macho you're dead already rhetoric, did succumb to PTSD just like the men he commanded.

[rwanttaja]

I'm not getting this reference. Savage, despite all his bravado and macho you're dead already rhetoric, did succumb to PTSD just like the men he commanded.

The reference was for those who tell people to just suck it up and take it. But a pandemic is not combat.

Besides, Savage had Combat Fatigue, not PTSD. PTSD is POST Traumatic Stress Disorder, the inability of the mind to leave a stressful situation behind it. Combat Fatigue is the reaction to the need for CONTINUED stress, where one part of the mind tries to force the sufferer to do what it perceives as its duty, and another part of the mind reacts with the quite human trait of self-preservation.

Lay and Bartlett's novel really highlights this:

As Gately and Stovall hurried to his side, scarcely able to believe their eyes, both men understood in a flash what was wrong. The incredible had happened.

Frank Savage had broken down.

Too many missions. Too many near-misses from flak and cannon shells, buried too long in the subconscious. Too many drains on the adrenalin discharged into the bloodstream to enable a man to cope with dire emergencies. Too many hours spent sitting helplessly, unable to retaliate, against the air-borne firing squad of the Luftwaffe. Too many sleepless hours spent staring at the ceiling of a bedroom under the pressure of responsibility. Too incessant and excessive a demand on the physical resources of even the strongest human body, when deprived of the opportunity for recuperation. Too much emotional stress from the perpetual denial to himself that he and his men were flesh and blood, with a right to live. Too long a residence in the halls of the living dead.

Good book. Good movie, too.

The book actually ends on a more hopeful note than the movie. This was deliberate, and think it was a reasonable decision.

Ron "Why, yes, I do own a copy of the book. And the movie. And every episode of the TV series. And the Toby mug. And one of the movie posters. And a copy of the book, 'The Twelve O'Clock High Companion'" Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

OK, thanks for the tutorial on Twelve O'Clock High.

Regarding PTSD. In WW1 they called it shell shock, in WW2 they called it combat fatigue. I thought it was now called PTSD for the last few decades.

[rwanttaja]

OK, thanks for the tutorial on Twelve O'Clock High.

Regarding PTSD. In WW1 they called it shell shock, in WW2 they called it combat fatigue. I thought it was now called PTSD for the last few decades.

Like I said, two different things... "Shell shock" was recognized early, but PTSD wasn't recognized as a formal diagnosis until about 40 years ago. Though, of course, when you look at the histories of the heroes after they come home from war, it's been going on a long time.

Even though shell shock (combat fatigue, war neurosis, etc.) has been around for a while, militaries have tended to distrust it, thinking that it's a manifestation of simple fear (e.g., cowardice) rather than a human reaction to incredible pressures. In the RAF during WWII, there was a diagnosis called "Lack of Moral Fibre." Primary purpose seems to have been punishing men who collapsed under the strain...unless they had flown at least 30 missions.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

Ron, this is a great discussion and worth its own thread, but this is supposed to be about what you want to see at AirVenture. Right now I just hope that there will be an AirVenture. I have confidence that these things will pass, and soon, but it is a cautious optimism.

[Airmutt]

Ok in that spirit and given the current situation......I’ll say Port-A-Potties stocked with TP and hand sanitizer:eek:

[GeorgeP]

Ron, this is a great discussion and worth its own thread, but this is supposed to be about what you want to see at AirVenture. Right now I just hope that there will be an AirVenture. +1

[rwanttaja]

Ron, this is a great discussion and worth its own thread, but this is supposed to be about what you want to see at AirVenture. Right now I just hope that there will be an AirVenture. I have confidence that these things will pass, and soon, but it is a cautious optimism.
<Tugs forelock> Right you are, squire.

Ron "Nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat" Wanttaja

[cdlwingnut]

The list was long a few weeks ago, now I just hope the scare is over and everyone is healthy by July.

[Eric Gleason]

The list was long a few weeks ago, now I just hope the scare is over and everyone is healthy by July.

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Past viruses have taken 5-6 months to get under control, so it's conceivable that things will still be crazy by July. I don't know about where you guys are, but most of NY state is shut down now. Government offices, most businesses, schools, restaurants, etc. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that aggressive measures now will keep it in check enough that we can resume normal lives by summer, but I'm coming to terms with the fact that my dream father-son Oshkosh adventure is getting postponed.