A question about assessing a ramp queen for purchase (disassembly of the wings...)

[geosnooker2000]

I spy, with my little eye... a 1969 Cherokee 140 that looks like it hasn't been flown in years. This is at a local GA airport. I think I see (from the closest I can get to it) a broken-out passenger door window, the paint looks BAD... really bad, and even a baseball-sized hole in the pilot's window (although that could be just a vent hole that has lost its fitting). The front tire is flat. The spinner is missing.
Anyway, I am considering buying it as a project, but I would like to know the condition of the main spar connection bolt holes. Did that proposed AD get passed on the PA-28/32 wings? I can't find it on line. All I can find are articles about a "proposed" AD. I am in the middle of getting in touch with the owner to see if he is interested in selling. Since I have gathered that just removing the wings to inspect could cost up to $3000, I was wondering if it would be LEGAL... for me to disassemble the wings from the fuselage, as if I was going to transport the plane to a hanger by trailer (because really, I probably would do that in the first place if I bought it), and then have an A/P inspect the holes, and if no defects were found, supervise me reassembling the wings to the fuselage? IOW, is it all about the re-attachment, or BOTH the detachment AND re-attachment?

George

[Dana]

You can take anything apart that you want, you only need the A&P to return it to service.

[geosnooker2000]

Thank you, sir!

[Sam Buchanan]

There may be very good rea$$$ons why the Cherokee was abandoned...... :)

[Airmutt]

I see derelict airplanes and think what a waste but you really need to stop and think about the financial and time commitment to rebuild it. We had a guy just give up on ironically a PA28 simply due to the cost for replacement parts and went the RV route.

[ulpilot]

We have several ramp rats at our local airport, have looked them over. None of them are worth more than scrap value. Couple of issues to check before even talking to the owner. First, you say some windows are broken or open. If the plane has sat through more than one bird mating season, then the interior and engine compartment is one huge birds nest/toilet. Bird poop is corrosive, and on a Cherokee they may also have got into the fuselage through the tailcone. So to start your going to need a new interior, and a lot of cleaning, primer to fight off more corrosion. Lycoming engines do not sit well unused, it will need a tear down to check cylinders, cam shaft and lifters, minimum. It may cost you more than buying a good flying airplane.

Then dealing with the owner. My experience, they either lost their medical and think at age 80 plus, they will get it back someday. Or, they think their $5000 birds nest is worth $50,000 cause that is what they see the top of the line creampuffs go for on Barnstormers.

Good luck, your going to need it!

[Mike Switzer]

We don't have any sitting outside here, but there are several in hangars that haven't moved in years, usually due to medical issues. I have looked at a couple after the owners finally decided to sell & I passed because just from what I could see it would cost way more than the plane would be worth (in good condition) to return them to service.

[geosnooker2000]

Thanks for all the responses. I realize the chances of this thing being worth it is a total shot in the dark, but that dude... that DUDE... the "This old Cherokee" guy. $1000 plane, put about $6000 in it to get it back in shape. All he's got now are ramp fees, insurance, and annuals. I'm looking for that, and will put in quite a bit of effort before giving up.

[Mike Switzer]

The thing is, if it has been sitting for any length of time, you have to assume it will need an engine rebuild. That can get expensive.

[Dana]

Thanks for all the responses. I realize the chances of this thing being worth it is a total shot in the dark, but that dude... that DUDE... the "This old Cherokee" guy. $1000 plane, put about $6000 in it to get it back in shape. All he's got now are ramp fees, insurance, and annuals. I'm looking for that, and will put in quite a bit of effort before giving up.

If it takes $6000 to get it back in flying shape, great, but it could also take $30K to put it back into shape, then what?

[Bill Berson]

Restoring an airplane is mostly labor. If you do all the work with no concern for your time the cost of parts is minimal. Even an overhaul or partial engine repair can be done with a mechanic assisting. My first rebuild was a 1946 Chief at age 21.

[Bill Greenwood]

One listed for sale for $21,500 and this is a flying airplane, all the parts there together and radios and panel that work, engine that runs and can take you for a demo flight. But hey, mabye you can raise the other one from the dead if that is really what you want to spend your time on.
And just a guess but I think most a&ps are going to prefer to annual a flying airplane, rather than a nest of mice, birds etc.

[geosnooker2000]

If it takes $6000 to get it back in flying shape, great, but it could also take $30K to put it back into shape, then what?

I would definitely want to get a pre-buy inspection done by an A&P not currently associated with the plane. I mean, all issues besides the main spar bolt holes, since those are what I'm suggesting is a very expensive inspection (as I said, up to $3000 just to remove the wings).

[Airmutt]

I use understand your concern about the wing AD but I think you need to get some basic info. Some of which impacts the spar AD.........
What year is this airframe?
What is the AFTT?
When was is last flown?
Why was it parked?
Are all the log available?
Do understand and have a list of all the outstanding service bulletins and ADs that need to be incorporated?
When was the engine last majored?
Have you borescoped the cylinders?
What do the engine logs indicate or tell you?
Do you have an A&P in hand who is willing to work with you?
Do you have the necessary shop space?
Do you have the necessary tooling on hand?
Do you really have the skills to pull this off?
Do you have the time to invest to get this project completed?
Do you realize that almost every system on this plane will need to be gone through and most likely require a rebuild or replacement?
Have you and or your A&P inspected the airframe for corrosion?
Do you really have a handle on the cost of replacement parts in today’s market?
Have you done a balance sheet for the project?
Do you have the financial resources?
Are you married, and if yes, is she OK with what you’re about to undertake?

The above is just a short list. Yes any airplane can be brought back from the dead given enough time, money and determination. It’s tough to separate the emotion & passion from reality. Not trying to rain on your parade but just want you to fully understand the complexity of the task you are contemplating.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Sounds to me like IF the above excellent beginner checklist is answered and acceptable to you and IF it indeed is a $1000 project starter abandoned plane then have a ball.

I read enough 'money pit' stories from pilot-owners of used planes bought in flying condition to be too timid to buy one that doesn't even start there.

[rwanttaja]

Sounds to me like IF the above excellent beginner checklist is answered and acceptable to you and IF it indeed is a $1000 project starter abandoned plane then have a ball.

I read enough 'money pit' stories from pilot-owners of used planes bought in flying condition to be too timid to buy one that doesn't even start there.

I don't disagree with you, but.... I think the OP's estimate of $6,000 to get a $1,000 airplane flying is WAY optimistic. In all likelihood, after the airplane is restored, just the first annual inspection will probably run about half that.

On the other hand, $1,000 is basically nothing in aviation. If the OP determines the plane cannot be economically brought back to flying condition, he can get much of his money back by parting out the airplane.

Ron Wanttaja

[Sam Buchanan]

The salvage yards have more scrapped Cherokees than they know what to do with............................

[Bill Berson]

That's because the cost and hassle of General Aviation has exceeded the value.

[geosnooker2000]

I use understand your concern about the wing AD but I think you need to get some basic info. Some of which impacts the spar AD.........
What year is this airframe?
What is the AFTT?
When was is last flown?
Why was it parked?
Are all the log available?
......


That is the $64,000 question.
This plane, when you research the N#, seems to belong to a guy that was an aircraft dealer LLC who got sued in 2013, and if you believe internet chatter, probably did some jail time. He/they have a current website that is completely empty. They have a phone number that only yields a busy signal, and a cell phone number that doesn't get answered. I called the FBO and asked if they knew who owned the plane, and how to get in touch with them. They said they would do a little research and call me back. That was Thursday. Haven't heard a thing. I mean, I'm in no hurry - still financially recovering from Christmas lol. So, Imma wait a little while before I press the issue.

And BTW, @ Ron Wanttaja,
That wasn't my (the O.P.) estimate. I was using this guy as an example of what IS POSSIBLE (not to be confused with probable).
http://www.thisoldcherokee.com/

[FlyingRon]

If you want to know the ownership, there are companies that will perform that for a fee. You start with what the name on the FAA records says. It will either be a US individual (LPR or citizen) or a corporation/LLC/Trust with US entities controlling it. Of course, if the entities are in jail or otherwise unavailable to you, you're screwed.

As pointed out, even if they signed over the title for nothing, you like are going to have more to put in to it than it's going to be worth. The engine alone can swamp the value of an older Cherokee. Add to that everything made of rubber (tire, fuel lines, seals in the carb, etc...) are likely to need replacing. That doesn't even begin to address the nightmare if there is corrosion. While Cherokees don't tend to have a whole lot of ADs on the, there are a few onerous ones (like the wing spar) and if that's not been done, you'll have to have it done (and if necessary fixed), before any IA will sign off the annual. It goes on from there. A poorly researched aircraft is no bargain.

[thisadviceisworthles]

There is one (a PA-28) in a hangar at my airport I have considered purchasing. My thought is that if I can get it for around $5000, and the wings are good. I can buy it, sell the wings and engine core, scrap the rest and park my Yankee in a hangar.

I know I won't be getting a hangar any other way.

[BrianS]

I don't disagree with you, but.... I think the OP's estimate of $6,000 to get a $1,000 airplane flying is WAY optimistic. In all likelihood, after the airplane is restored, just the first annual inspection will probably run about half that.

Totally agree - but the $6000 wasn't just an estimate pulled out of thin air, it's based on a very specific and lucky anecdote: http://www.thisoldcherokee.com/

YMMV, but we can all dream...

[CAVU Mark]

Everyone needs a hobby and hobbies only need to be enjoyable. Once you put a price on it, it no longer becomes a hobby or passion, as so many of us describe ourselves. Remember money doesn't spend itself.

[L16 Pilot]

Slightly off the subject but I'm always amazed at folks who will buy a fine piece of machinery (airplane) and then tie it down outside and let the weather and sun beat it to death. Often they apparently lose interest in the subject and it sits on the ramp or in the weeds for years and never touched. I can think of several right now. My father in law who was a good farmer never left his machinery outside. Once it was done for the season it was cleaned up and put away under shelter. I was just looking at a Cessna 150 yesterday that I don't believe has been moved for 10 years.

[geosnooker2000]

Your father-in-law likely had a lot of land on which to build his own hangar. For the majority of people, we are relegated to storing a plane at the airstrip, where we can either pay $75/month for a tiedown space, or $350/month for hangar space. And looking around, that seems to be a minimum around the Memphis metro area. I mean... that's a freaking car payment. If I could build my own hangar, I bet the monthlies on that would be a lot closer to the former than the latter.

[geosnooker2000]

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

[ulpilot]

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

For a certified aircraft the minimum equipment list on the type certificate outlines what the aircraft needs to be airworthy.

[Airmutt]

So that would be Part 91. There is no MEL for a PA28-140.

[rwanttaja]

Assuming I get this plane (the guy a spoke with at the airport suggested it might be for a $1), the panel is probably useless. Let's assume I needed to replace every piece of avionics in there. Or basically start from scratch. I-pad panel mount system, old used steam gauges, etc. What do I need? I mean, from the FAR point of view.

14CFR 91.205 would give you the minimum list of instruments required for VFR and IFR, day and night. In MY opinion, if you're facing replacement of ALL the gauges, you might as well look into an EFIS.

Basic Comm radio, such as the Icom ICA220. Transponder, encoder, and ADS-B, depending on where you plan to fly.

Resurrecting the engine is likely to cost as least as much as the panel, depending on how long it's been sitting, how it was prepared, and the environment it sat in.

Ron Wanttaja

[Bill Berson]

The Equipment List is issued by Piper with the original Weight and Balance form and should be transferred with the aircraft papers. http://twisted-wrench.com/files/W_and_B_-_Equipment_List.pdf

[geosnooker2000]

The Equipment List is issued by Piper with the original Weight and Balance form and should be transferred with the aircraft papers. http://twisted-wrench.com/files/W_and_B_-_Equipment_List.pdf
I suspect this airplane's log books will not be coming with the plane, whoever buys it, IF anyone buys it. Because, the plane will be a "foreclosure" of sorts, taken by the airport for years and years of ramp fees not paid. The owner of the aircraft is (as far as I can determine) Barron Thomas LLC, who won't answer the phone, won't return phone calls, and won't return emails. If you know the story behind him, you can probably guess why. I wish he would, I would love to get as much info on the plane as I could get.

[Airmutt]

Sorry Bill, Someone is confusing the Equipment List for W& B purposes vs the Minimum Equipment List that describes minimum equipment functionality required for flight. MELs are required for turbine powered aircraft and Part 125 and 135 operations.

[geosnooker2000]

As a jumping off point/issue (although I have already asked for opinions about the avionics), this plane has no spinner. I went and googled "piper 140 used spinner for sale". The cheapest I came up with was $495 from Texas Salvage, and it has TWO messed up screw holes??? I thought surely one could come by a spinner for a reasonable price out there. Am I looking in the wrong places?

[CHICAGORANDY]

As an non-plane owner but a lifetime (71 yrs and counting) aviation enthusiast, the four words I don't recall seeing together very often are "aviation parts" and "reasonable price". -lol

[geosnooker2000]

Here is the panel. Since I am a newbie, I don't recognize some of that stuff. Like, what is that thing above the transponder that says "comm" and "omni"? IS that a piece of equipment for IFR? I've looked at a lot of Piper 140s for sale online, and I've never seen anything like that.
8296

[FlyingRon]

The thing that is marked COMM and OMNI is an ancient NAV COMM with a built-in indicator. COMM for communications receiver and OMNI was another name for VOR (remember VOR stands for VHF Omnidirectional Range). Alas, that radio is garbage. First, it is almost certainly illegal to transmit with under the current rules. There's a separate VOR head there so I suspect there's a second NAV radio of some vintage obscured by the control yoke. The bottom unit is an old Mode A/C transponder. Of course, given the age of the other radios, it may lack a mode C encoder. None of this archaic junk has any retail value and probably isn't even worth repairing if you wanted to keep it.

I'm not sure what the stuff with the falling off trim just above the quadrant is. The rest of the panel is ugly but doesn't look too bad.

Unlike the $1000 Cherokee you referenced, this one looks rough. Looks like someone started ripping it apart and there's probably good reason as there's visible corrosion (and more likely that's not visible). A lot of the viability will come down to what shape the engine is. Just throwing a bunch of mouse milk at it may not bring it back to life.

[Mike Switzer]

That is a very very old Nav/Com radio unit, obsolete. It will need replaced as well as (probably) the nav head.

[Airmutt]

It appears to be an old King KX-150 comm nav radio. It’s a man cave museum piece. To the left there is an VOR OBS head and an ADF head but the radios have been removed. You need to hook up with some airplane knowledgeable people and take a REALISTIC look at this airplane. Based on your own newbie comment I would STRONGLY recommend that you walk away!

I know that the low entry cost is tempting but you’re probably gonna have to strip this airplane completely down and no telling what you may find but it ain’t gonna be cheap and you might find the airframe is just not cost effective to rebuild. Then what???

[JBlack]

That's because the cost and hassle of General Aviation has exceeded the value.

That just about sums it all up.
It's mostly beyond reach for most pilot wannabees.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"
I would STRONGLY recommend that you walk away! "

More like run away or jump into a fast car and drive away. lol

[Sam Buchanan]

There are rea$$ons why this poor Cherokee is abandoned......

[Kyle Boatright]

The reality is that the cost of the parts required to put that airplane back in the air greatly exceeds the market price of a flying example in decent shape. Do not walk away. RUN.

[geosnooker2000]

There are rea$$ons why this poor Cherokee is abandoned......

If you have read the thread, especially the previous page, you would know that the most likely reason is the LLC that owns it. Some sort of aircraft ponzi scheme.

I knew this thread would turn out this way. Everybody is so quick to trash equipment and "things" that look like too much work to them. This could turn out to be a labor of love for me. If I put in the time, money, and attention to this bird, it could turn out to be the greatest thing (not person, but THING) ever in my life, ever. I have the same philosophy about my cars and trucks. It may cost me a whole lot more than YOU would be willing to spend on something that isn't financially worth it, but if I restore it to my specs, I will know what I have in it. I will know everything about it. Every inch of it. The alternative is to buy a $30,000 Trade-A-Plane that is 100 hours from needing a $18,000 overhaul. Plus whatever else maintenance-wise was deferred "to the next annual".
You may all very well be right. IDK. I want to get an IA or an A&P to give it a glance before I cull it from the possibility bin.

[Kyle Boatright]

...The alternative is to buy a $30,000 Trade-A-Plane that is 100 hours from needing a $18,000 overhaul. Plus whatever else maintenance-wise was deferred "to the next annual".

Problem is, that ramp queen is almost guaranteed to need an engine rebuild right now. And all new radios/intercom/transponder which which will start at $10k. Plus replacing half the instruments which don't work, the tires, tubes, brakes, brake cylinders, brake calipers, dealing with AD's, rebuilding struts, a moldy interior, bad glass, etc.

If you wanna buy it, do so, but numbers say this airplane is not an economically viable rebuild.

[Sam Buchanan]

If you have read the thread, especially the previous page, you would know that the most likely reason is the LLC that owns it. Some sort of aircraft ponzi scheme.

I have read the thread (been reading it since it was started) and the photo of the interior speaks volumes to those of us who have been in aviation for multiple decades. A ponzi scheme may very well be in play, but that doesn't change the economics of returning this poor aircraft to service.

However.....I wish you the best in your pursuit of your next project...whether it is this one or something yet to be found. I too have put more $$$$'s into various projects than good judgment would dictate so I understand your thinking. But sometimes it is best to resist mental target fixation and move on to something more feasible. :)

[CHICAGORANDY]

"I knew this thread would turn out this way."

Well, then at least the members here WITH the appropriate knowledge on the subject didn't disappoint. So that's an encouraging plus. In my decrepit mind there is NO doubt whatsoever that IF you have unlimited funds, and are willing to gladly spend many multiples of a thing's realistic value, then ANY machine -in ANY condition - can be brought back to 'as new' condition.

I believe the members here have been pointing towards that reality without chastising or mocking a newcomer to the forum's project. But I suspect that if the spinner cost was harsh to you, you 'might' not actually have the unlimited funds this restoration could cost?

[L16 Pilot]

Personal opinion not to knock anyones dreams but the PA 28/140 project looks like it would probably be more than anyone would care to tackle. Having said that: I have rebuilt and recovered several tube and fabric aircraft that I know (and have found out) I would never get my money back from. However, I have the pleasure of resurrecting a fine piece of machinery that has been rotting away in someone's shed or old dark hangar. Since I don't drink, play golf or run around with wild women it's my hobby just like some folks have other hobbies and really you can't put a price on that. I have found that once the cover is off a lot of gremlin$ appear.

[Bill Berson]

A derelict is much easier to restore than a crash. I have done both and both have all the parts. I don't like to mess with one missing parts, however.
Of course, I grew up in Alaska where everyone rebuilds 70 year old airplanes at home. And they don't have expensive hangars either.

[Airmutt]

Airmutt’s Theorem of Aviation #1.
Any endeavor into aviation requires four elements: Time, Money, Skill, and Motivation. None of these elements are constant and are functions of the individual, the situation and time. A deficiency in one element can be overcome by the other three. A deficiency in two of these elements defines failure.

Be sure to read Thompson Chapter 12 for the next class and the mid-term will be next Friday. :cool:

[martymayes]

I thought surely one could come by a spinner for a reasonable price out there. Am I looking in the wrong places?

That is reasonable. That's why it will take $30k to put the plane in flying condition, assuming you can get legal possession and assuming the plane can be legally registered. If it's being seized by a gov. organization it will be auctioned to the highest bidder, so you have to be the high bidder before you can throw buckets of money at it.

[martymayes]

Anyway, I am considering buying it as a project, but I would like to know the condition of the main spar connection bolt holes. Did that proposed AD get passed on the PA-28/32 wings? I can't find it on line. All I can find are articles about a "proposed" AD.
The AD is in progress. Comment period is closed. Most of the comments suggest the proposed AD is too onerous. Waiting on final rule from FAA. The AD is intended to address fatigue cracks in the spar caps, specifically the lower spar cap. The spar bolts are a routine inspection item. Interesingly, there are about 19,000 airplanes that will be affected by this AD. The number of comments during the open comment period was 167.

You'll need to follow the instructions in the maint. manual to remove the wings. The simplified process is use a cradle to support the fuselage, lift the plane to place it in the cradle, something to support the wings while they are de-mated from the fuselage and a rack to carry/store the wings.

[geosnooker2000]

That is reasonable. That's why it will take $30k to put the plane in flying condition, assuming you can get legal possession and assuming the plane can be legally registered. If it's being seized by a gov. organization it will be auctioned to the highest bidder, so you have to be the high bidder before you can throw buckets of money at it.

Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce? Does it have to be cut on a lathe? I mean, if I was to try and reproduce it, I would think it would start as a flat piece of sheet on an English wheel? I mean, I get it. A new part would be expensive, but I figured with the number of dead birds out there, the demand vs. supply of salvaged parts would be in favor of the consumer more than that.

[rwanttaja]

Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce? Does it have to be cut on a lathe? I mean, if I was to try and reproduce it, I would think it would start as a flat piece of sheet on an English wheel? I mean, I get it. A new part would be expensive, but I figured with the number of dead birds out there, the demand vs. supply of salvaged parts would be in favor of the consumer more than that.

It is because it is a part that goes on a type-certified airplane. The FAA mandates that particular standards be used in the production of all parts, and, except in limited situations, the part must either be made by the original manufacturer or one which has demonstrated (EXPENSIVELY demonstrated) that its parts meet the same standards of the original part.

Say, for instance, you find the right Cherokee spinner for $500, and a $100 spinner from a, say, Cessna 172 that uses the same attachment and can be easily installed. Can you just use it?

No. It *can* be used, but you have to get FAA approval to use it...which means you have to pay an A&P to file the appropriate paperwork. Perhaps a Field Approval is possible (Form 337), but you *might* have to obtain a Supplemental Type Certificate. The former will cost a bit; the latter quite a bit more. The FAA has been getting persnickety in recent years, too...they've denied field approvals for modifications that had been previously approved in aircraft in past years.

Now, the FAA *does* allow "Owner Produced Parts." You *can* build your own spinner. But, again, installing it is not your decision. You need to find an A&P who will risk their certificate in confirming that the spinner you built is airworthy, and sign off on its installation. They're betting their livelihood on your homemade spinner. Think they'll do it cheap?

This is why so many people are pleading that you show caution on this deal. It's not like it's a 64 Ford that you can haul out from behind a barn and restore. There are very restrictive rules regarding the restoration and maintenance of production airplanes.

And now you know why homebuilt aircraft are so popular. None of those rules apply. My carb-heat knob broke last year. On a Cessna 150, I probably would have had to buy a whole new assembly... $130. Instead, I went to Ace Hardware, bought a two-pack of aluminum drawer knobs on sale for $3, and tapped one of them to fit.

As for the cost of used parts, consider: Assume you're the owner of an aviation scrapyard, with a field full of junk airplanes. Say a potential customer shows up, and wants a spinner for a Cherokee 140.

You check, and you've got a 140 hulk on the field with an undamaged spinner. "How much?" the customer asks.

You look in the Piper catalog and find a Cherokee 140 spinner listed. Price: $2,000.

Now: How much are you going to charge the customer for the used spinner? Ten bucks? Ha! You're in the business to make money, not provide good deals for cheap airplane owners. In all probability, the price will be 50% of what a new one will cost. A thousand bucks for a used spinner would be a thousand-dollar savings over a new one. And if the customer doesn't buy it...well, there'll be someone else along, eventually.

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

The cost of designing, testing, certifying, manufacturing and maintaining a Part 23 or Part 25 aircraft is staggering. You must remember that the FAA is charged with maintaining the public’s safety. An aircraft manufacturer can design, build and test an aircraft under the Experimental category. The design may or may not meet its expectations to go into production. Either way those are sunk costs.

If a a company decides to proceed, the conformity process for parts must take place. Whether you are the prime or a sub contractor your parts must be conformed. That includes the drawings, the part part itself and the materials used to produce the part, etc. It’s all about quality control. We haven’t even talked about the cost of fabricating tooling.

The FAA also defines handling characteristics as well. A company must conduct development testing of a conformed aircraft to demonstrate its meets those requirements and present that data to the FAA before they will even sign off for type certification testing which they witness even begins. The same applies for aircraft performance. This includes providing the FAA a flight manual.

And that’s just a portion of the costs. One can read Part 23 or 25 and understand what testing must be accomplished. Even if a company does development testing, develops its test report and petitions for a type inspection with the FAA its not necessarily a done deal. I’ve seen cases where the FAA rejected the presented data and then the cycle starts over.

Typically a manufacturer determines the number of units that it must sell just to break even. Lockheed California lost money on every single L-1011 TriStar that it delivered. It was not a bad aircraft, but they missed the mark on its cost to manufacture. It was such a financial disaster it took Lockheed out of the commercial aircraft market.

[geosnooker2000]

And now you know why homebuilt aircraft are so popular. None of those rules apply. My carb-heat knob broke last year. On a Cessna 150, I probably would have had to buy a whole new assembly... $130. Instead, I went to Ace Hardware, bought a two-pack of aluminum drawer knobs on sale for $3, and tapped one of them to fit.


Yes, I already knew that part. I fully intend to build a homebuilt, but I need to start flying while I'm still healthy enough to get a third class medical. That's why I'm looking for a good used Piper to get started flying, and to have something to fly while I'm building. And before you say it, yes, I know.... "This isn't a "good" one." There's one in Canada for $29,500 (which would be $22,000 USD) That reads like its got some life left in it, but the thought of buying internationally seems so daunting... There is one in South Carolina for $13,000, but there's something like 2300 hours on the engine, so that's probably another $18,000 plus an ADS-b add, so that would be in the $35,000 range to get flying. This one is right here at the airport I would need to be at for flying lessons, and I already know the engine will need to be a total overhaul, and probably 50% of the panel will need to be replaced with good serviceable used instruments and couple of new side windscreens, etc. BUT, when I'm done with it, I would have a ZERO TIME engine on it, which would be far more valuable on the resale market from what I can discern just by shopping for them. Fly it for a couple hundred hours while I'm building, and at the end, I would have a 200 SMOH Piper. How much would THAT be worth? THAT is the calculus. Not how much is it gonna cost compared to what's available on the market right now. Because that is something I haven't seen an example of for sale to know.

[Sam Buchanan]

Get up to speed on BasicMed, you may have more options than you realize.

[rv8bldr]

Get up to speed on BasicMed, you may have more options than you realize.

One thing to consider with Basic Med is that you can't fly in Canada (if that is important to you)

This from Transport Canada

- The BasicMed rules are explicit that this exemption to the need for a Class 3Medical Certificate apply to operations in the United States only.

- This medical certification process is not International Civil Aviation Organization(ICAO) compliant and so is unacceptable to Canada.Canada will not allow pilots operating under this exemption to fly inCanada.

- Similarly, the U.S. does not allow Canadian pilots using a Category4 medical certificate (self-declaration) and a Recreational Pilot Permit tooperate in the U.S.

Michelle ChartrandActing Office Manager, Civil Aviation Medicine Atlantic and Overseas regions

[geosnooker2000]

One thing to consider with Basic Med is that you can't fly in Canada (if that is important to you)

This from Transport Canada

- The BasicMed rules are explicit that this exemption to the need for a Class 3Medical Certificate apply to operations in the United States only.

- This medical certification process is not International Civil Aviation Organization(ICAO) compliant and so is unacceptable to Canada.Canada will not allow pilots operating under this exemption to fly inCanada.

- Similarly, the U.S. does not allow Canadian pilots using a Category4 medical certificate (self-declaration) and a Recreational Pilot Permit tooperate in the U.S.

Michelle ChartrandActing Office Manager, Civil Aviation Medicine Atlantic and Overseas regions

Well, that's just rude.... Come on, Trump! Let's get together with Canada on this!

[Sam Buchanan]

OK.....didn't know ops in Canada were under discussion...

[martymayes]

Help me understand why. Is it because it is a piece of metal that is hard to produce?

It's made by spinning a flat piece of aluminum over a form on a lathe set up for metal spinning. It's really not hard to make.

[L16 Pilot]

I've never quite understood how Johnny Teenager can jack his pickup to the point you need a step ladder to get into it or make a dozen other modifications but the aircraft owner is held to the standards of the type certificate "or else". Especially when you're dealing with simple tube and fabric type aircraft which I doubt is even taught in A & P school to any extent any longer. No wonder folks migrate to the home built market.

[Floatsflyer]

I've never quite understood how Johnny Teenager can jack his pickup to the point you need a step ladder to get into it or make a dozen other modifications but the aircraft owner is held to the standards of the type certificate "or else".

I suppose because there is absolutely no fear that pickups will be falling from the sky.

[martymayes]

Depends on how high it's jacked up.

[L16 Pilot]

I suppose because there is absolutely no fear that pickups will be falling from the sky.

Probably so but you're running down the road five feet side by side with a potentially unstable piece of machinery. Anyway, aircraft don't just "fall from the sky" .

[fixnflyr]

"Anyway, aircraft don't just "fall from the sky" .[/QUOTE]

They do if the wing attach point fails like this new AD is going to address.