After the deadline [Archive]

planecaptain

12-14-2019, 08:19 AM

I have been told that since I have decided to not equip with ADS B out that I will not be able to use my transponder after Jan. 1, 2020. Is this true?

Sam Buchanan

12-14-2019, 08:41 AM

No.

rwanttaja

12-14-2019, 10:03 AM

I have been told that since I have decided to not equip with ADS B out that I will not be able to use my transponder after Jan. 1, 2020. Is this true?

The only thing it should affect is your ability to fly within certain airspace. According to 14CFR 91.225, you'll need ADS-B Out to fly:

1. In Class B airspace
2. Class C airspace
3. Within a Class B veil (e.g., within 30 miles of the center of Class B airspace.)
4. Above Class B or C airspace
5. At or above 10,000 feet MSL, unless you're within 2,500 feet of the ground.

No mention is made for NOT operating transponders if not ADS-B Out equipped.

Ron Wanttaja

ahramin

12-15-2019, 10:59 AM

You should absolutely continue to use your transponder since it will make you visible to appropriately equipped aircraft.

rick9mjn

12-15-2019, 11:26 AM

here is my .02 cents .....in the new "January 2020 issue of AOPA PILOT " starting on page #85 is a good article. On what ,when, were, why ADSB is needed..... ... . good day / rick /............................. quote of the day 'Liquidating Excess Funds Through Aviation"

Anymouse

12-21-2019, 10:35 AM

If you like your transponder, you can keep your transponder.

FlyingRon

12-21-2019, 10:40 AM

In fact, you MUST operate your transponder (if you have one) in controlled airspace.
The ADSB-required rules apply to what we used to know as the places you HAD to have a transponder/encoder before.

You should absolutely continue to use your transponder since it will make you visible to appropriately equipped aircraft.
Well, very few aircraft are "appropriate equipped" to see a simple transponder. What it does is make your position and altitude known to ATC radar which then can relay it via the various traffic information services as well as making it available to controllers. Still, you want it on.

Airmutt

12-21-2019, 01:22 PM

The real elephant in the room will be getting the waiver to fly into ADS-B out airspace to verify system operation if and when one chooses to equip their plane after the deadline.

FlyingRon

12-21-2019, 01:34 PM

The real elephant in the room will be getting the waiver to fly into ADS-B out airspace to verify system operation if and when one chooses to equip their plane after the deadline.
You don't have to fly within ADSB-required airspace, only airspace that has ADSB service coverage which is a much larger area.

Airmutt

12-21-2019, 06:46 PM

Oops forgot the rule airspace requirement was for the rebate. My bad.

Mayhemxpc

12-21-2019, 08:59 PM

Kyle Boatright

12-22-2019, 04:57 PM

yep. I will tell you how that works out. My plane is in annual right now and the ADSB Out transponder is being swapped out during that time. If things don't get done by Dec 31...and right now it looks like that won't happen I will find out about the waiver. My home airport in within the DC SFRA.

Yikes. I thought I was in an uncomfortable spot, being based 1/2 mile outside Atlanta's Class B ring, and with the new ADSB/TXP sitting in a box in my basement...

Gotta finish the RV-10, or at least get the fuselage to the paint shop, before I can spend any time upgrading the -6...

Airmutt

12-23-2019, 05:34 AM

Hey Kyle, thought you were flying out of Cartersville. Did you move down to Pauling County???

ahramin

12-23-2019, 12:18 PM

Well, very few aircraft are "appropriate equipped" to see a simple transponder. What it does is make your position and altitude known to ATC radar which then can relay it via the various traffic information services as well as making it available to controllers. Still, you want it on.
I think you meant very few aircraft in your experience Ron. The majority of aircraft are TCAS/ACAS equipped, and many aircraft in uncontrolled airspace are TCAS/ACAS/PCAS equipped. In addition, ADS-B towers will repeat mode A/C replies so everyone with ADS-B IN can see these aircraft if something is interrogating them.

Therefore, those owners choosing not to upgrade mode A/C transponders with ADS-B should have their transponders on at all times in the air.

Auburntsts

12-23-2019, 12:34 PM

... The majority of aircraft are TCAS/ACAS equipped, and many aircraft in uncontrolled airspace are TCAS/ACAS/PCAS equipped.

Huh? In what world? Most certainly not in the piston powered GA fleet which is the focus of this forum.

Therefore, those owners choosing not to upgrade mode A/C transponders with ADS-B should have their transponders on at all times in the air.

Actually, in the US it's not "should" it's "will" per 91.215.

lnuss

12-23-2019, 12:52 PM

The majority of aircraft are TCAS/ACAS equipped, and many aircraft in uncontrolled airspace are TCAS/ACAS/PCAS equipped.
Maybe that's true of airliners and bizjets, but they are a minority of aircraft in general, and that statement is most certainly not true of general aviation aircraft -- a (possibly surprising to you) number of them don't even have electrical systems, and a LOT more have bare minimum of com (and maybe nav) radios plus a transponder. Even many that are considered well-equipped don't have TCAS, etc. That stuff is expensive.

rwanttaja

12-23-2019, 01:01 PM

I think you meant very few aircraft in your experience Ron. The majority of aircraft are TCAS/ACAS equipped, and many aircraft in uncontrolled airspace are TCAS/ACAS/PCAS equipped.
What's your basis for this claim? Please point to an FAA, NTSB, AOPA, or EAA report that provides numbers.

As of January 2019, there were 294,221 aircraft on the FAA registry. If we assume that every transport-category aircraft has TCAS/ACAS (probably a reasonable assumption, since it's required for most airline flights), that's less than 7% of the entire fleet. Even if we assume every *jet* (including turboprops) has it (a fact not in evidence), that's still just 15% of the entire fleet.

The average aircraft on the FAA registry is 40 years old, which meant the majority of aircraft in the US were built at least ~10 years prior to initial certification of TCAS and more than 20 year prior to it becoming mandatory for airliners. You're saying that a majority of small aircraft owners VOLUNTARILY added TCAS/ACAS to their aircraft?

Ron Wanttaja

ahramin

12-23-2019, 02:16 PM

We could spend quite a bit of time debating this to no purpose so I'll concede right away that if we are talking about single engine GA aircraft under $250k, none are equipped with TCAS/ACAS. My apologies. This misses the point.

The idea of not turning your transponder on because few of us have aircraft equipped to see that transponder is misguided at best. There are plenty of fast aircraft flying in non-ADS-B rule airspace that are equipped to see you so it's not just a "shall" as pointed out above, it's also a good idea.

In addition, as already stated while ADS-B towers do not interrogate mode A/C transponders, they do see the replies when these transponders are replying to interrogations by atc and ACAS/TCAS equipped aircraft. Those ADS-B towers then broadcast that information to all ADS-B IN equipped aircraft. Again it doesn't matter if no one around here has spent the extra $1k on ADS-B IN, those aircraft are out there and having your transponder on will at times make you far more visible to them.

Auburntsts

12-23-2019, 02:26 PM

The idea of not turning your transponder on because few of us have aircraft equipped to see that transponder is misguided at best. There are plenty of fast aircraft flying in non-ADS-B rule airspace that are equipped to see you so it's not just a "shall" as pointed out above, it's also a good idea.
.

No one advocated turning off mode A/C transponders especially since 91.215 specifically directs just the opposite.

Kyle Boatright

12-23-2019, 03:02 PM

Hey Kyle, thought you were flying out of Cartersville. Did you move down to Pauling County???

I am at VPC (Cartersville). Looking at the charts it is more like 5 miles outside the ring. Still pretty close. I need to make some time for the new TXP/ADSB install...

FlyingRon

12-24-2019, 08:46 AM

Yep. I actually had a Xaon XRX PCAS but it's currently sitting on the shelf. It however, doesn't see a simple transponder on it's own. It needs something else to interrogate the transponder first. Xaon's however, weren't big sellers and the company is out of business. I priced out active traffic years ago when I bought the Xaon, and frankly, the other options were prohibitively expensive (and with $75,000 of avionics in the Navion, my threshold of pain was pretty high). Frankly, Garmin wasn't even interested in talking to me about the options (one of the reasons that drive me away from Garmin, along with their obnoxious service policies). I stayed with the TIS on my mode S transponder and the Xaon.

flyrgreen

12-24-2019, 02:40 PM

I have been told that since I have decided to not equip with ADS B out that I will not be able to use my transponder after Jan. 1, 2020. Is this true?

I see that there are enough replies to answer your question, so a related piece of advice Captain--- the person who told you that is so far off base that you might want to relegate your conversations with him/her to sports and "how are the kids doing in school" variety. Just saying......