Pearl Harbor Day, Have We Forgotten ?

[Bill Greenwood]

No mention of it in this forum. I did see one very good tv special on this morning with some scenes I hadn't seen before.

[raytoews]

No mention of it in this forum. I did see one very good tv special on this morning with some scenes I hadn't seen before.

The Commemorative Air Force airbase Arizona had a dedication today of a piece of the Arizona that will be on permanent display.

Ray Toews

[BusyLittleShop]

Thanks Bill for starting a remembrance thread...

The only thing certain about the future is that it will surprise even
those who see the furthest into it...

I offer scans from my Dec 1941 Air Progress and Nov 1941 Flying
magazines collect that takes us back in time before December 7 attack
on Pearl Harbor... this was the mindset of our military planners
before they faced the darkest horizons...

Dec 1941 Air Progress
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Nov 1941 Flying and Popular Aviation
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[Bill Greenwood]

Larry , that's unbelievable, especially one month before the actual attack, there it is like a blueprint. I notice most of out fighters would be a death trap against a Zero and I expect the Japanese pilots were probably superior at that stage of the war. One of the points in the show yesterday, was the "sneak attack" aspect of it. The embassy staff in Washington was supposed to deliver at letter to the U S,,I think at 7 am or so our time, but just made a slow job of translating the code and even typing the letter. I think the letter didn't say "We declare war", but rather that "no further negotiations are possible" and when Sec State Cordell Hull received it he said, "this means war".
This program claims, first time I'd ever heard this, that pilots were told not to bomb before a certain time, and that Adm Yamamoto had relied on the message being delivered and considered attacking before that as dishonorable. Iv never read that in any famous Japanese pilot books Ive read.

[Bill Greenwood]

Let's say the diplomatic message had been delivered at 7am and the attack at 7:50. Would the bases and the ships have made any real changes in getting ready for them. After all the message did not and would not say, "We are at war and attacking now. " And would the average U S person feel any less outrage about the attack if it was not in an undeclared war, even if only by an hour.? One source says the U S was expecting any attack to come in the Phillipines, not Hawaii

[rwanttaja]

Let's say the diplomatic message had been delivered at 7am and the attack at 7:50. Would the bases and the ships have made any real changes in getting ready for them. After all the message did not and would not say, "We are at war and attacking now. " And would the average U S person feel any less outrage about the attack if it was not in an undeclared war, even if only by an hour.? One source says the U S was expecting any attack to come in the Phillipines, not Hawaii

The transition from peace to war (and reverse) is a thorny one. How much warning is "fair"? Germany declared war on the US on 11 December 1941. According to their declaration, that was three months after FDR had publicly admitted ordering the US Navy to fire on any German warship. US destroyers had been escorting British convoys; USS Reuben James had been sunk by a U-Boat in the process.

So if the U-Boats of the Kriegsmarine had been lined up to fire torpedoes at the same moment that Germany's declaration would have been delivered to the American charge d'affaires...would it have made any difference?

Note that the US itself often starts shooting without a formal declaration of war. China, Nicaragua, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. That's just in the 20 century! Mind you, there was usually a lot of saber-rattling prior to our opening fire, but one could argue that ANY attack without a formal declaration of war is, by definition, a sneak attack.

Ron Wanttaja

[Floatsflyer]

The embassy staff in Washington was supposed to deliver at letter to the U S,,I think at 7 am or so our time, but just made a slow job of translating the code and even typing the letter. I think the letter didn't say "We declare war", but rather that "no further negotiations are possible" and when Sec State Cordell Hull received it he said, "this means war".
This program claims, first time I'd ever heard this, that pilots were told not to bomb before a certain time, and that Adm Yamamoto had relied on the message being delivered and considered attacking before that as dishonorable. Iv never read that in any famous Japanese pilot books Ive read.

This was all accurately recreated with much detail in the 1970 movie "Tora Tora Tora".

[BusyLittleShop]

I notice most of out fighters would be a death trap against a Zero and I expect the Japanese pilots were probably superior at that stage of the war.

Mercy, imagine being assigned one of those death traps to fly and fight in???

Oh don't give me a P39
The one with the engine behind
It will tumble and roll and dig a big hole
Oh don't give me a P39

I think you're right about the Japanese pilots being seasoned at the
junction of the war and I'll add a bit cocky... in fact when I met
Saburo Saki Japan's leading ace who survived over 200 dog fights and
scored over 64 air victories he was still feeling cocky as he signed
my book and oil painting at Yakota AFB...

Saki san asked me "where did I get this painting?"

I commissioned a artist while TDY in the Philippines, I shot back.

"Philippines?" he exclaimed with glee. "we conquered the Philippines".

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Sakai sustained serious injuries from the return fire of Avenger rear
seat gunner. He was hit in the head by a 7.62 mm (0.3 in) bullet,
blinding him in the right eye and paralyzing the left side of his
body. The Zero rolled inverted and was descending toward the sea.
Unable to see out of his uninjured eye due to blood from the head
wound, Sakai's vision started to clear somewhat as tears cleared the
blood from his eyes, and he was able to pull his plane out of the
dive. He considered ramming an American warship: "If I must die, at
least I could go out as a Samurai. Finally, the cold air blasting into
the cockpit revived him enough to check his instruments, and he
decided that leaning the fuel mixture he might be able to return to
the airfield at Rabaul. Rabaul, 8 August 1942: A seriously wounded
Sakai returns to Rabaul with his damaged Zero after a four-hour,
47-minute flight over 560 nmi (1,040 km; 640 mi). Sakai's skull was
penetrated by a machine-gun bullet and he was blind in one eye, but
insisted on making his mission report before accepting medical
treatment. Sakai was evacuated to Japan on 12 August, where he endured
a long surgery without anesthesia. The surgery repaired some of the
damage to his head, but was unable to restore full vision to his right
eye.

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[Airmutt]

Talk about death traps.... read about the Marine aviators on Midway. Flying in badly outdated Vindicators and Buffalos with a handful of Wildcats it was practically a suicide mission. To lose that many with such poor results. And for the few that did make it back their aircraft were written off.

[FlyingRon]

If you ever get to Pearl, not only is the Arizona memorial (and the little museum where the launch sails from) interesting, but if you go over to the Pacific Air Museum, you'll see more interesting things on the attack. There are still bullet holes in the windows of their restoration hangar from that day.

[oakchas]

We are forgetting all of our history.

We do so at our own peril.

It saddens me.

I hope I don't live to see the end result.

Damn shame.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[BusyLittleShop]

I also recommend Pacific Air Museum... you'll have fun dog fighting a Zero in their simulator... if you yank and bank hard Gs you'll see streamers off the bad guys wing tip... "come here I won't hurt you he he he..."

Wildkitty versus Zero...
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Bullet holes FlyingRon mentioned...
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The museum's A6M2 Zero...
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Their SBD (Slow But Deadly) dive bomber...
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The museum staff is very passionate about their P40E even though we only had the P40B during the attack...
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Ni'ihau Zero story is amazing...
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[rwanttaja]

We are forgetting all of our history.

We do so at our own peril.

It saddens me.
It's the way life is.

Without looking it up online, how many people can give the dates for the battle of Belleau Wood? Dewey at Manila? Battle of the Greasy Grass? Shiloh? Chapultepec? Queenston Heights? USS Chesapeake vs. HMS Shannon? Yorktown?

Yet, in the past, people would have been outraged at those who revealed such ignorance.

These events fade into history. They lose their importance, to later generations. We might, today, point at grandfathers or even fathers who took part in WWII campaigns, but that connection fades as time passes. Pretty soon it's just family mythology, about great-great-great-great Uncle Matthew at Gettysburg.

9/11 is seared into most our memories...but note, last year's college freshman hadn't even been born when it happened. It's never going to be as vivid for them.

Not saying this *should* happen, or that these events shouldn't be remembered. It's just not going to be as important for later generations.

Ron "Not one in 10,000 knows your name" Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

There were still traces left at MCAS Kaneohoe too. There is a small marker where on of the Japanese aircraft crashed. If I recall correctly it was near the BOQ but I left there in 1984.

[Bill Greenwood]

Larry, that is wonderful stuff, put those pictures on its own topic so more folks here will see them. I have Sakai's book and I read it often. About 30 years ago I was at an airshow in California and got his signature. Pappy Boyningto was there also.
Not long after I ate dinner with Pappy, just the two of us. At least I ate,I think Pappy liked a liquid diet.

[Bill Greenwood]

There is a song by a supposed P-38 pilot who is new to combat and the Pacific. The line goes, I'll leave the Zeros to the other heroes!

[rwanttaja]

There is a song by a supposed P-38 pilot who is new to combat and the Pacific. The line goes, I'll leave the Zeros to the other heroes!

"I Wanted Wings."

Ron Wanttaja

[BusyLittleShop]

Larry, that is wonderful stuff, put those pictures on its own topic so more folks here will see them. I have Sakai's book and I read it often. About 30 years ago I was at an airshow in California and got his signature. Pappy Boyningto was there also.
Not long after I ate dinner with Pappy, just the two of us. At least I ate,I think Pappy liked a liquid diet.

Bill how about a Aviation Memorabilia thread topic???

[rwanttaja]

"I Wanted Wings."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC-8vPJo9OE

Ron Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

1. "A generation which ignores history has no past...and no future." Robert Heinlein.
2. Greasy Grass? Why you must mean that Battle of the Little Big Horn! June 25, 1876 (Which is the day the movie "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" is supposed to start.)
3. I wanted Wings. I had not heard the song before, but I recognized the voice of the artist. A LONG time ago, I played some of his songs when I worked as a radio announcer for my college!

Christopher T. Mayer
Colonel (ret.), 7th United States Cavalry
"For Garryowen in Glory"

[FlyingRon]

I was touring the facility with the then education director KT and Margy and noticed the exhibit shown above (The Battle of Ni'ihau). I made a comment about how I don't think the Smithsonian would ever allow use of barbed wire as an exhibit barrier like they had. KT told me to go ahead and touch it. While it appears that the exhibit is separated from the public with barbed wire, the barbs are actually rubber.

The only thing I really regret about visiting that museum is that Margy and KT talked so long, I missed the sign up for the last boat out to the Arizona. On our next trip to Oahu, we did that first (in fact, they had seats available on the next boat out).

The Arizona continues to leak fuel oil. You see small drops of it rise to the surface:

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[Airmutt]

When stationed in Hawaii in the early 80s I belonged to the NAS Barbers Point Flying Club. I used to take the T-34 over to Ford Island and shoot touch and go’s. We weren’t allowed to stop but it did offer views of the Arizona and Oklahoma that most didn’t get to see. The superstructure of the Arizona was supposedly dumped on shore to the NW. To my knowledge it was off limits but never did hear what was done with it.

[rwanttaja]

2. Greasy Grass? Why you must mean that Battle of the Little Big Horn! June 25, 1876 (Which is the day the movie "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" is supposed to start.)
"Battle of the Greasy Grass" is what the Sioux called it...and I think the victors should be allowed to name the battle. :-)

Ron "Custer was wearing an arrow shirt" Wanttaja

[rwanttaja]

3. I wanted Wings. I had not heard the song before, but I recognized the voice of the artist. A LONG time ago, I played some of his songs when I worked as a radio announcer for my college!

Oscar Brand was wonderful. He did albums of service songs for the Air Force ("Wild Blue Yonder"), Army ("Cough"), the Navy ("Every Inch a Sailor"), and the Marines ("Tell It To the Marines). These were all performed as service people would sing them, a very rollicking style. Amazon sells the four-CD set (https://www.amazon.com/Four-Albums-Military-Oscar-Brand/dp/B000F2C8IU/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=oscar+brand&qid=1575994730&sr=8-6). There was a second Air Force compilation as well.

He also did "Up in the Air," songs for civilian pilots ("Teterboro Tower," "Light Planes on Parade," "The Checklist Song," etc.).

Ron Wanttaja

[CHICAGORANDY]

We've all heard that we need to Remember the Alamo - heard it since I was a tot. But to save my life of now 70 years were it not for Google I could not have told you the siege took place 2/23 - 3/6/1836. It also kinda shocks me sometimes that I served in Vietnam 47!years ago. Crikey - where did those years go?

[FlyingRon]

"Battle of the Greasy Grass" is what the Sioux called it...and I think the victors should be allowed to name the battle. :-)

Ron "Custer was wearing an arrow shirt" Wanttaja
It would be really confusing with the Civil War battlefields. Do naming rights go to the side that won the battle or the entire war?

[FlyingRon]

We've all heard that we need to Remember the Alamo - heard it since I was a tot. But to save my life of now 70 years were it not for Google I could not have told you the siege took place 2/23 - 3/6/1836. It also kinda shocks me sometimes that I served in Vietnam 47!years ago. Crikey - where did those years go?
Only if you were a Texian. The US was not involved in the Alamo. It was a battle between the Mexicans and the Republic of Texas. Remember the Alamo actually, has less to do with the Alamo itself (which was a catastrophic loss for the Texians) but as a rallying cry by Sam Houston prior to the battle of San Jancinto (and alas shouted by Texians committing atrocities committed after the battle).

[rwanttaja]

It would be really confusing with the Civil War battlefields. Do naming rights go to the side that won the battle or the entire war?

Heck, even the victors can't always agree. What we call "World War Two," the Russians call "The Great Patriotic War."

The War Between the States has its own continuing issues. What my family calls "The Civil War," my wife's family refers to "The War of Northern Aggression."

The Federal side named battles after nearby creeks or rivers, while the Confederates named them based on the nearest town.

Ron "Covering my Manassas" Wanttaja

[FlyingRon]

The "War of Northern Aggression" wasn't a contemporary name for it. That invention came from the 1950's and has incredibly racist undertones. It's not as humerous as the other Ron would make it out to be. The "Lost Causers" who set about to revise history after the end of the war tended to adopt the "War Between the States."

[rwanttaja]

The "War of Northern Aggression" wasn't a contemporary name for it. That invention came from the 1950's and has incredibly racist undertones. It's not as humerous as the other Ron would make it out to be. The "Lost Causers" who set about to revise history after the end of the war tended to adopt the "War Between the States."

Like I said, other side of the family. Her parents got out of that environment as early as possible. Two of my wife's grandparents met at a KKK cross burning. Nana came to visit us in Seattle, back in the '90s. We learned not to take her out in public.

Ron "Is 'The Late Unpleasantness' OK?" Wanttaja

[BusyLittleShop]

Heck, even the victors can't always agree. What we call "World War Two," the Russians call "The Great Patriotic War."

True... WW2 is a subject we learned not to bring up playing WarBirds
which is a world wide interactive air combat game... you picked a 4
digit call sign (mine is XLAX) then pick a color... I flew for the
Golds... as a gold you battled against the Reds and Purples and
Greens... each of four color has its own dedicated radio channel but
the Gray channel was the community channel that could be read by all
four colors... without exception if someone mentioned "World War Two"
the gamers in Russia would counter with do you mean the "The Great
Patriotic War"??? a passionate argument would go on and on... it was
clear that the Russians gamers weren't mere kids but learned aviation
buffs like us who read about and dreamed about flying and fighting in
WW2...
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[Mayhemxpc]

"Battle of the Greasy Grass" is what the Sioux called it...and I think the victors should be allowed to name the battle. :-)

Ron "Custer was wearing an arrow shirt" Wanttaja

That just opens a whole can of worms regarding any battlefield within 100 miles of where I live!

[Mayhemxpc]

Funny thing about that. Manassas was not the nearest town then, in fact it wasn't even a town. It was a railway junction with about four houses and a stationhouse. The town of Yorkshire was closer and where the Confederate HQ was. The battlefield itself was on Yorkshire plantation. So why wasn't it the battle of Yorkshire?

If you really want to read about an unlucky person -- someone there at the beginning and end -- look up Wilmer McLean.

In the middle ages, when armies had heralds, the heralds of both sides would get together to agree on a name for the battle.

Dispatch sent from Manassas in Federal Occupied Northern Virginia

[FlyingRon]

In fact, it really was "Manassas Junction" if you look at period documents. Note that the naming "convention" isn't universal. For example, I lived pretty much on the Ox Hill/Chantilly Battlefield. Chantilly was the Union name, Ox Hill was the confederate name. Chantilly wasn't a town back then, but an estate. Ox Hill, was essentialy, a hill that Oxen travelled over.

[Bill Greenwood]

Flying Ron, one thing I do know about it the battle of the Alamo, that you call " a catestropic loss for the Texans". Well the Texans lost every man, about 185, but they never had any illusions that they could defeat an army of 3000 or 4000, and that is clear from Travis's letters which survive. Travis and the other Texans chose a place to die and more or less the time for it.
But in 185 men holding an old church for 13 days against 5000, the delay gave Sam Houston some time to organize what army the Texans had to the east. And when the Mexican cannon finally holed the north wall,making the end inevitable the defenders took a terrible toll on the attacking forces. Santa Anna took no part in the actual fighting, he watched from a safe distance and later called it " a small affair." But his adjutant whose job it was to accurately count the battle said, "we brought to San Antonio more than 5000 men and we left 1570 of them there on the ground. "
So 6 weeks later when Santa Anna went east to San Jacinto just outside Houston, the Texan army of about 800 men routed the Mexican army of about 1200 in an hour. Believe it or not Houston allowed Santa Anna to live in echange to ceding Texas. Not only a moral victory , but can you imagine the immense wealth that is now modern day Texas and gained by the lives and efforts of these 1000 men.

[Mayhemxpc]

H.G. Wells wrote that "Isolated bands of men rarely sell their lives dearly." This may be true overall, but the examples of where that did happen resound through history.

[BusyLittleShop]

New to my collection is this sobering January 1941 Popular Aviation article... Mercy, I wonder if Admiral Kimmel was of the same mindset???

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