Collings B-17 Mishap

[Bill Greenwood]

I have no real information other than a news release, that says their B-17 took off at Hartford ( Bradley) and returned shortly and there was a fire, no real word on the crew other than 5 people went to hospital. Collings was thanking the firefigther and rescue people for their efforts.

I have not only ridden in that plane, I have flown it. Collings has been a leading part of warbirds for decades, my prayers for all the crew.

[Floatsflyer]

According to numerous online news reports, the B-17 crashed and burned on the runway this morning. There were 13 on board including 2 pilots. State police say there are multiple fatalities but can't say how many as yet. One person on the ground was injured. My condolences to all the families.

[BusyLittleShop]

No not Nine O Nine!!! the news of this accident is bitingly bitter...
I helped the pilot fix his broken bomb bay universal. He knew I'd do
anything to keep them flying... after all the Collins Foundation's
greatest joy is making others happy...

Note: although LoveJoy is still in business offering parts the pilot
needed a quick overnight custom fabrication of the 1944 part to meet
ride commitments...
https://www.lovejoy-inc.com/

Viya Con Dios to all the crew...

8067
8068

[BusyLittleShop]

Eye witness account not from a pilot but his Dad was USAF... in short... during take off #3 engine lost power and the return to base was unsuccessful...
https://www.wfsb.com/video-eyewitness-recounts-moments-when-b--plane-crashed-at/video_31be805e-4c17-5e86-98dc-f6373e8b5aa0.


(https://www.wfsb.com/video-eyewitness-recounts-moments-when-b--plane-crashed-at/video_31be805e-4c17-5e86-98dc-f6373e8b5aa0.html)Connecticut airport press conference...



https://youtu.be/ctYUTc4j7jY
(https://www.wfsb.com/video-eyewitness-recounts-moments-when-b--plane-crashed-at/video_31be805e-4c17-5e86-98dc-f6373e8b5aa0.html)

[CHICAGORANDY]

Most recent reporting says 7 dead.

https://www.wfsb.com/news/people-killed-in-b--crash-at-bradley/article_d514bd24-e51d-11e9-b6ac-47e02ec67428.html

[BusyLittleShop]

ATC audio... pilot states take off weight "44,000 lb we don't carry bombs anymore" and they request a return to field because of #4 engine...


https://youtu.be/weNLHLWSg6g

History of Nine O Nine...

https://youtu.be/Fpv-xxYQ8-o

[BusyLittleShop]

The plane hit the instrument landing system posts and veered to the
right. It crossed a grassy area, then a taxiway, and ran into the
de-icing facility, NTSB member Jennifer Homendy told reporters.

Jay Leno tours Nine O Nine and interviews WW2 B17 crews...

https://youtu.be/OjRQXjcY6u0

[Sirota]

I don't get it. I've never flown multi-engine so I'm kinda talking out my fanny and I'm in no way casting judgement on the crew. But the war stories of these coming back on just one or two engines, shot to hell with badly damages control surfaces are well documented. I have to believe something more than the loss of #4 engine must be part of the story.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Deepest symathies to the injured and the families of those who lost their lives in this crash.

[Kyle Boatright]

Others are disputing this....

Ron Wanttaja

Including a preliminary NTSB report.

https://youtu.be/RoLU-I6C4Uo

[BusyLittleShop]

I lost my friend Mac... he absolutely loved his job... 20 years with the foundation with over 7,300 B17 hours...

8069

[BusyLittleShop]

No sound but great video close ups by the NTSB...


https://youtu.be/DIjWv0lcLz0

[Samuel]

What a tragedy. People ask if it is worth the risk to fly these old airplanes. Compare the videos and pictures on the internet of Nine-O-Nine to the actual combat veteran Memphis Belle. The exposure and history lesson generated by Nine-O-Nine and the other B-17's that barnstorm the country is incredible. That doesn't bring any of the crew or passengers back, but we can rest in knowing that their mission was worthwhile.



https://youtu.be/VkC9ZdlzV30

https://youtu.be/VkC9ZdlzV30

[Bill Berson]

At least one prop (in the video) was feathered.

[FlyingRon]

Worth the risk of what? Risk of death of the crew? They chose to do so. Risk of loss of the airframe? I'm of the mind of Scott Crossfield: "Put one in a museum and recycle the rest into canoes" The thing that bears scrutiny, and likely will after this, is the deaths of the public members who were on board.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I have been a joyous passenger in a 1928 Ford Tri-Motor twice now at AirVenture and would not hesitate for a second to climb onboard again. I haven't ridden in the Aluminum Overcast solely due to $$$ constraints.

It may well be that every death diminishes us all but if it's one thing I learned at an early age (4th Generation Funeral Director myself) it is that life itself is a terminal condition. To quote good old actor William Shatner - "Live like you're gonna die, because you are." No worth or value judgements made on how each person chooses to march towards their inescapable end.

Sometimes 'stuff' simply 'happens' and there's not a darn thing we can do about it beyond feeling angry, sad and helpless.

[Mayhemxpc]

Nothing in life is "safe." Everything carries risk. This is particularly true regarding flying -- flying anything. But we seem to live in a society that is risk averse about a great many things. The time will come Ron, and possibly quite soon, where these risk averse decision makers will decide that flying planes older than 50 years, or 25 years, is not in the public interest, that they create a safety hazard for the general public. Then they will decide that any private aviation at all is hazardous to the public and must be banned.

[rwanttaja]

Nothing in life is "safe." Everything carries risk. This is particularly true regarding flying -- flying anything. But we seem to live in a society that is risk averse about a great many things. The time will come Ron, and possibly quite soon, where these risk averse decision makers will decide that flying planes older than 50 years, or 25 years, is not in the public interest, that they create a safety hazard for the general public. Then they will decide that any private aviation at all is hazardous to the public and must be banned.
I don't see that stemming out of this accident.

For one thing, the general populace is going to view the victims as participants...not members of the general public. They were passengers on the airplane of their own choice.

So while the rabble-rousers may spout about the dangers of old aircraft, it's not likely to cause a reaction from the populace. Because their attitude will be along the lines of, "Well, I wouldn't fly in one of those things, anyway."

It would have been different if the plane had crashed off-field, especially into a population center. Then it would be perceived as a threat.

Remember, less than ten years ago, another WWII airplane crashed, causing more fatalities than happened with 909 and more then five times the number of injuries. And the vast majority of the victims were members of the public on the ground. Yet, any calls to ban WWII aircraft flying in public fizzled out.

It's possible that more strict rules regarding passenger carriage will result. B-17s are not type-certified aircraft; they carry passengers under special FAA dispensation. That dispensation is going to be reviewed, even potentially cancelled, with few avenues of appeal. Hate to see it happen, but I suspect without the revenue provided by paying passengers, nobody is going to be able to afford touring WWII airplanes.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mayhemxpc]

I may have misinterpreted your intent. If so, I apologize.

The "Living History Flight Experience" exemption allows carrying paying passengers on a Part 91 flight, in an airplane 50 years or more old and for which there is no standard category airworthiness certificate. (So my warbird is not eligible as it is certified in the standard category) The rules for getting an exemption are pretty rigorous and essentially require operations equivalent to Part 135. We have no idea yet what the airplane came to earth 1000' short of the runway so speculation about what the FAA may or may not do is premature. I agree with you that if the exemption is pilled, then the tours end. The price for a flight is really only enough to cover the expenses of keeping the airplanes flying and associated tour expenses. To me, it is amazing that the seats normally sell out for each flight, and about 80% are in pre-sales.

I have worked ground support for Aluminum Overcast several times over the past few years. I have had the opportunity to fly in the airplane and the tri-motor in association with that volunteer work. I have always believed that the flights in the EAA aircraft were as safe and to as high as standard as any airline flight I have been on, and maybe safer than some. (And certainly safer than some military flights -- especially the I was with a UN peacekeeping operation.)

[rwanttaja]

I may have misinterpreted your intent. If so, I apologize.
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to the last line in your previous comment....

"Then they will decide that any private aviation at all is hazardous to the public and must be banned. "

I do not think this incident, or any involving exemption aircraft, will affect citizen opinion of private aviation itself. The only exception would be if an accident causes casualties among members of the public who were not involved in the flight...a Cessna 172 crashing into a school, for instance.

The B-17 crash gave non-flying pundits a chance to raise alarm about the use of aged ex-military aircraft. The regulatory outcome of this will depend on the result of the NTSB's investigation.

Ron Wanttaja

[Airmutt]

Ron, I love watching any vintage aircraft fly and I’m not an alarmist by any means. But the reality is we are slowly losing these awesome aircraft.
The engineer in me asks who deals with the aging aircraft issues for these types? Given the training and combat loses during WWII I doubt service life was much of a design consideration.
For example, it took a T-34 to break apart in flight at a air combat simulation operation with a couple of fatalities to highlight spar issues. Military aircraft cycle thru depot inspections and have engineering support to address such issues. The Navy cycled it’s P-3’s thru service life extension programs to replace out wings and horizontal tails. Remember the C-130A fire tanker that broke apart in flight; Lockheed had informed the operator about issues with the center wing section. The operated chose to ignore and we know how that ended. While I’m sure owners may crosstalk amongst themselves, is there anyone out there performing that function?
The time will come when these aircraft are considered too old or rare, or the regulatory burden becomes too prohibitive. Just may not be in our life time.

[rwanttaja]

Ron, I love watching any vintage aircraft fly and I’m not an alarmist by any means. But the reality is we are slowly losing these awesome aircraft.

I don't disagree. But as I said in my previous post, my point was to disagree with Chris' suggestion that General Aviation as a whole is at risk over WWII aircraft accidents. There'll be pressure to limit passenger flying in these aircraft, but the accidents won't cause a reaction against GA in general.

Ron Wanttaja

[Kyle Boatright]

Ron, I love watching any vintage aircraft fly and I’m not an alarmist by any means. But the reality is we are slowly losing these awesome aircraft

On the other hand, there are people out there rebuilding and vitually scratch building new ones. Where there's a will (and lots of money), there's a way.

Here is (effectively) a new build B-17 fuselage, under construction.

https://i.postimg.cc/d01yv7C7/IMG-1938.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And a cardboard box full of gussets for a new B-17 wing spar.

https://i.postimg.cc/GtqRcpG2/IMG-1940-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)how to upload images (https://postimages.org/)

[martymayes]

On the other hand, there are people out there rebuilding and vitually scratch building new ones. Where there's a will (and lots of money), there's a way.

Here is (effectively) a new build B-17 fuselage, under construction.

And a cardboard box full of gussets for a new B-17 wing spar.

They just need a way to speed up the process......The B-17 rebuild in Urbana, OH will be around the 25 yr mark by the time it flies.

[Kyle Boatright]

They just need a way to speed up the process......The B-17 rebuild in Urbana, OH will be around the 25 yr mark by the time it flies.

Absolutely true. Thing is, once someone builds the tools to make (say) a B-17 bulkhead, now the tooling exists for the next one of those someone needs. Apparently, there is a lot of sharing in the B-17 community, so maybe, just maybe, the time needed for each of these projects can be reduced.

[Bill Greenwood]

I was just discussing the Collings accident with a man who flies another B-17. He said it should climb out even on three engines and be able to fly back to the airport on three good engines. No real eveidenc of why they couldnt 't get that performance.

[Samuel]

The Collings Foundation website is back up if you want to send them some support: https://www.collingsfoundation.org/giving/

[Airmutt]

Found this in an article at military.com. Will be interesting to see how the FAA reacts to this tragedy.

Federal investigators will take a hard look at the possibility of restricting or banning rides for the public aboard World War II-era aircraft following the fiery crash of a restored B-17 "Flying Fortress" bomber in Connecticut last week that killed seven and injured eight.

[BusyLittleShop]

B-17G "Nine-O-Nine" KBDL NTSB Preliminary Report




https://youtu.be/5YN4QAdji7Y

[Bill Greenwood]

Information on other sites says both no 3 and no 4 engines may have been shut down or at least not producing much power. Cause is not known but fuel was avgas as it was supposed to be.

[PaulDow]

FAA has rescinded Collings’ authorization to fly any of it’s aircraft. Note that this is an FAA ruling on the educational flight authorization, not the full NTSB report on the accident.
Link (https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-news-faa-says-collings-foundation-cannot-carry-passengers-20200325-twq2alj7i5gztllf6h4p22mjyi-story.html#nt=oft-Double%20Chain~Flex%20Feature~homepage-main-chain~home-page-spot-1~~1~yes-art~curated~curatedpage) to Hartford Courant article.
Link (https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FAA-2001-11089-1673) to FAA report

It’s brutal to Collings’ lack of following procedures, and flying with obvious maintenance issues.
I know EAA has a different safety culture in our historic flight operations. I just hope Collings’ bad practices don’t reflect on the others who are flying safely.

About 20 years ago Collings brought their B-17 & 24 tour to BDL, and they operated out of the FBO that was in the same building as the FSDO. Those planes were grounded for months following inspections.

[FlyingRon]

NTSB hasn't yet ruled on it (and I can't find anything in the online docket system). I did read through the FAA Recission letter (not really a report). Frankly, I don't disagree with the FAA on this one. This isn't the first time Collings has had a run-in with the FAA (though that one went up to the ALJ at the NTSB and the FAA was mostly struck down).

[Samuel]

I just hope Collings’ bad practices don’t reflect on the others who are flying safely.

I hope you are correct on this and I think you will be. The Warbird industry can fix. Also I should add that some of the current Warbirds flying are in better condition than they ever were during the war.

[BusyLittleShop]

I got to know Mac while machining parts to fix Nine 0 Nine's bomb bay doors... he had flown for the Collings for 20 years and was the highest time
B17 pilot in the USA with over 7,300 hours... He was also the Safety Officer for the foundation...

If Mac rolled on a engine that didn't pass mag check then even he would call negligence... if Mac rolled on a engine that passed mag check then why wouldn't he expect full power???

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/attachments/usergals/2019/10/full-45634-36771-b17nineonine4.jpg

[Bill Greenwood]

what does "rolled on an enginne" mean in ENGLISH?

[Kyle Boatright]

what does "rolled on an enginne" mean in ENGLISH?

In this context, he's contemplating the observed condition of the engine when the pilot rolled (started a takeoff run).

[FlyingRon]

A mag-check only tells you the functioning of the ignition at the time you perform it. You don't need to be flying something as esoteric as a B-17 engine. Plugs load up, mag coils break down with heat, etc...

Anyhow, this action is NOT about the specific condition or causes of the 909 crash.

[Mayhemxpc]

It is a pretty damning report all in all. It will not be comforting to the family members of those who died. Ron, it looks to me that the recission was very much about the specific condition of 909 at the time of the crash, as well as a general poor safety culture at Collings.

[Bill Greenwood]

That's tough to read. And not my impression of Collings and I have actually flown 909 years back. One good safety procedure is when one man completes a repair a 2nd one must also check the work.

We talk now, but how many of us would have turned down a seat that day.?

[FlyingRon]

We talk now, but how many of us would have turned down a seat that day.?
Probably would have if it was free. But that is exactly the point. The public (even informed people like us) are unable or unwilling to do the proper due diligence to determine what the risk is.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Probably would have if it was free. But that is exactly the point. The public (even informed people like us) are unable or unwilling to do the proper due diligence to determine what the risk is.

I gladly bought a TriMotor ride at AirVenture 2018 - I got on board of my own free will 'assuming' (and yes I know what that means) that NO crew in their right mind would operate an airplane they knew was not properly maintained in critical areas....you know, like engines and such. I have faith - and at day's end that's all any of us laypeople can have - that the EAA maintains their aircraft as well as anyone in the world.

Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what other "due diligence" a paying passenger on any airplane ride can do? Even on a commercial airliner.

[Bill Greenwood]

How would you do due dillegence? If you were at the plane when it was being serviced you might but you were not going to climb a ladder to look over someones shoulder, and if you asked around don't think you'd hear negatives. Plenty of people lining up to go at $400, just like full tri motor rides

[Bill Greenwood]

I rode on a tram and had no idea how far past TBO the jokes were going to be.

[Kyle Boatright]

How would you do due dillegence? If you were at the plane when it was being serviced you might but you were not going to climb a ladder to look over someones shoulder, and if you asked around don't think you'd hear negatives. Plenty of people lining up to go at $400, just like full tri motor rides

Your due dilligence is "That airplane has flown safely for 70 years and the pilot not much less. The pilot say it is good to go and he'll be the first one at the scene of the accident. There aren't huge puddles of fluid under the thing and all the parts seem to be there."

So, kick the tires, light the fires, and let's go.

Kind of like an airline flight. You're pretty much depending on people with professional credentials to perform their roles properly.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I rode on a tram and had no idea how far past TBO the jokes were going to be.
I tell the jokes and give you my personal GUARANTEE they were all beyond obsolete when Eisenhower was our President. They have NOT aged like fine wines....more like milk.

[FlyingRon]

I gladly bought a TriMotor ride at AirVenture 2018
I did such a ride probably a decade or so again. The wierd part is the field went IFR while we were up. I got the last ride of the day.


Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what other "due diligence" a paying passenger on any airplane ride can do? Even on a commercial airliner.
That was exactly my point. This is why the airlines and charter operators have to work under the FAA regulation for Parts 121/135, etc... and why Collings (and the EAA for that matter) need the exception from the rules for their operation, and why it's a problem when they don't bother to comply with terms of that exception.

[Floatsflyer]

Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure what other "due diligence" a paying passenger on any airplane ride can do? Even on a commercial airliner.

When I arrive at the gate for check-in, I show the boarding agent my ticket, my passport and my Commercial Pilots License. My CPL allows me to exit the gangway to get unto the ramp and then proceed to do a complete walkaround of the aircraft. Upon completion, I walk up the stairs, re-enter the gangway, walk aboard the aircraft, look left and give the Captain a thumbs up. Doesn't anyone else do this?

[Bill Greenwood]

IF you went to a course or seminar at Flightsfety they would probably cover prefilght inspection as important. Many if not most of the corp and charter jets I see here have talis 20 feet in the air. yet I dont see any well dressed and paid pilots carrying a ladder out on the ramp.

[Mayhemxpc]

Probably would have if it was free. But that is exactly the point. The public (even informed people like us) are unable or unwilling to do the proper due diligence to determine what the risk is.

+1

[FlyingRon]

IF you went to a course or seminar at Flightsfety they would probably cover prefilght inspection as important. Many if not most of the corp and charter jets I see here have talis 20 feet in the air. yet I dont see any well dressed and paid pilots carrying a ladder out on the ramp.

And sometimes with disastrous results: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001212X18077&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=MA

But Part 135/121 maintenance procedures are SUPPOSED to alleviate some of this.

[BusyLittleShop]

Part 1 NTSB Factual Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' 16 Dec 2020

https://youtu.be/G3dD98IqEUk

Part 2 NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' 18 Dec 2020

https://youtu.be/1HNsQuLrOqg