EAA Sales Agreement

[JamesJohn]

Hi,

Wondering if someone can help. I paid a deposit on an Experimental I purchased and when the guy came to deliver the plane it wasn't close to the condition it had been described as and shown in the pictures I'd seen (I think they were old pictures or photoshopped). Anyway, then guy refused to give me my deposit back and now I am faced with having to pursue a lawsuit.

Has anyone else had something like this happen to them? I'm looking for advice. We both signed the regular EAA Sales agreement.

TIA!

James.

[CHICAGORANDY]

As I understand it the EAA sales document is intended as a guideline for your attorneys to use to create an actual agreement? It is mostly meant to be a waiver of liability for selling an experimental aircraft and the buyer accepting the risk. I didn't read anything covering deposit returns?

There is a section covering buyer issues:

"Seller has made Aircraft available to Purchaser at Purchaser’s convenience without limitation prior to the delivery of Aircraft to enable Purchaser to have a PRE-PURCHASE INSPECTION performed by Purchaser or Purchaser’s agent. Accordingly, Purchaser acknowledges that Purchaser has had Aircraft and its records inspected by an FAA licensed mechanic or by an FAA approved repair station. Purchaser acknowledges that Purchaser is satisfied with the workmanship and condition of Aircraft and that it is suitable for Purchaser’s own purposes."

Was a pre-purchase inspection done by you or your agent? Did your attorney include a clause regarding deposit refunds if you were not satisfied?

[Floatsflyer]

Very sorry this happened to you but as always in sales transactions outside of a legitimate retail store or online operations, it's Caveat Emptor-buyer beware. I'm not looking to admonish you but why would you provide a deposit for something unseen?

This is a civil matter, not a criminal one. The seller is just another sleaze bag fraud artist. As the seller refuses to refund your deposit under misrepresentation circumstances, your only recourse is to sue for damages both real and punitive.

How much is the deposit? Will your legal costs exceed the deposit amount? If so, then it would just be plain dumb to proceed with legal action. Will a lawyer take your case on contigency if worthwhile to him/her? If so, it might be favourable for you to proceed in this fashion.

You, like so many others who have been victims of larceny, have learned a valuable life lesson. You likely will never be a victim again.

[JamesJohn]

Thank you for the advice and I appreciate you being candid. Yes, I made a mistake and trusted someone. They described the airplane as a 9.5(interior) and 9.5(exterior) and the pictures seemed to verify that, until I saw it. Chips in the wings, cowling chipped, wheel pants cracked and seats worn/interior paintwork heavily chipped. The deposit was $5000. I can take it to the small claims court as I also have the advertisement showing pictures and I also took pictures of how it actually is.

You live and learn. Sometimes the painful way.

[Floatsflyer]

For that amount small claims court is a perfect place to go. You act for yourself, no lawyer fees, and bring all your evidence and any witnesses. SCC will also usually provide you with a written "how to" proceed to bring your case to court. Just remember this: even if you get a judgement you may not ever get paid. So get some advice on how to go about placing a lien on his property. When he finds out that you have done this, he'll pay you back the $5K plus any other costs SCC granted you faster than you can say "I refuse to be a victim."

[Bill Greenwood]

Go to small claims court. its perfect for this sort of thing. I have done it a few times and never lost, tied one and won four. The tie was unfortunanly against a friend who would not show up to finish a job, turns out he is a severe alcoholic, otherwise a decent guy. We agreed on a price in the end.
THen the local shop installed the wrong part, almost same part number, but not quite. I called and wrote them and no response at all. The night before the court case some big shot CEO from Chicago phones me and offers half the cost if I drop the case. BS. I went to court, and pretty easily got my $2200 back. I did have the evidence, a letter from the Beech shop that showed the correct part number.
I had one case where a supposed friend conned me out of a small loan, when I went to court he didn't show up. I found out he had 23 previous judgements against him and had no assets in his name, so there was nothing for the sheriff to seize. That may well be the case with this seller. Anyway your cost will be likely less than $100, give it a try. The reality is that you are buying a used airplane, not one with brand new perfect paint, so the judge may or may not side with you. I'd bet you lunch the "seller" doesn't even show up in court.

[JamesJohn]

Thank you, Gents. I appreciate the words of encouragement. Seller told me the paint was pristine and that the plane is 'like new' (as per pictures he sent). Even the aircraft bluebook rating scale describes a 9/9 as 'Interior is new. There are no scratches, cracks, crazing or other evidence of use. Paint is new. Airframe and paint are in excellent condition with no scratches or dents'. It certainly wasn't like that!

Like you guys say, it's worth a shot and I'll file for my costs. If nothing else I'll get a free lunch! :)

[CHICAGORANDY]

Let us know how things turn out - best of luck recovering your losses. An unfortunate but valuable learning experience for us all.

[Bill Greenwood]

James, I think you've got a good chance, but anticipate what the other side may claim, that they are relying on the written contract which takes precedent over "he said" and they may claim you are backing out of the deal because you don't have the funds or don't want to complete the deal as agreed to. Be polite to the judge, he/she has perhaps a half hour to decide which party is in the right. You want "interior as new" but how old is the plane and how many hours on it? Be sure to bring the before and after photos, the judge cant much go on your word on what the other guy said. Just you going to court will be some deterrent to this type of seller, unless they are a real polished pro and do this regularly. So many people are a lion in the bar at night and a sheep next morning.

The kid's coach who cheated me out of $2000 did this to others and was clever enough at it that he knew that $2000 was the upper limit of a civil misdemeanor back then before it becomes a felony.

[Sirota]

Check your local statutes. Many municipalities limit small claims actions to $2 - 3,000. If you're limited, you can still sue in small claims court to the maximum limit and write-off the difference. I'm not sure I agree with Floatsflyer. You might be able to make a case for fraud or fraudulent inducement. Finding a city or county attorney willing to take the case is another discussion but it's worth the time to discuss it with them. I'd also post the seller's name here, Barnstormer, anywhere you can. Guilt or embarrassment might convince the guy to cooperate. If nothing else, you might be able to save the next guy some time and money.

[JamesJohn]

Check your local statutes. Many municipalities limit small claims actions to $2 - 3,000. If you're limited, you can still sue in small claims court to the maximum limit and write-off the difference. I'm not sure I agree with Floatsflyer. You might be able to make a case for fraud or fraudulent inducement. Finding a city or county attorney willing to take the case is another discussion but it's worth the time to discuss it with them. I'd also post the seller's name here, Barnstormer, anywhere you can. Guilt or embarrassment might convince the guy to cooperate. If nothing else, you might be able to save the next guy some time and money.

Here we have a limit of $10,000. From what I've heard the judges are extremely conservative and if someone has been deceived and evidence is available (which I have) then you have a very clear case of deception. SCC, I'm told is a little like going to your parents for a dispute to be resolved. They generally act extremely fairly. If someone stole money from you based off of a misrepresentation than it will be a fairly straight-forward case.

[Bill Greenwood]

How old is the plane and how many total hours on it?

[CHICAGORANDY]

To the newcomer OP -


Was a pre-purchase inspection done by you or your agent? Did your sales agreement include anything regarding deposit refunds if you were not satisfied?

If I buy a used car from a private party without having a mechanic or at least a 'mechanically inclined' buddy take a look at it and it turns out to be a clunker, it's all on me and a valuable (costly) life lesson that I'd hope to never repeat.

Frankly I am quite confused as to why one would send $$$ in any large amount to a stranger prior to buying anything sight unseen? Kinda harkens back to getting an e-mail from a Nigerian Prince.

[Floatsflyer]

To the newcomer OP -


Was a pre-purchase inspection done by you or your agent? Did your sales agreement include anything regarding deposit refunds if you were not satisfied?

Frankly I am quite confused as to why one would send $$$ in any large amount to a stranger prior to buying anything sight unseen? Kinda harkens back to getting an e-mail from a Nigerian Prince.


Randy, you're repeating questions you previously asked in #2. The OP didn't answer then so ipso facto he didn't do a PPI or have a sales agreement. These questions are irrelevant. Geez, he gave a substantial deposit without even looking at the plane and you're asking about paperwork? He's just trying to get his deposit back!

As far as your other question is concerned, he already answered in #4 because I asked him that in #3. And comparing his situation to being duped by a Nigerian Prince is totally unfair, unnessary, unhelpful and hurtful. The seller fu***d him and he's asking for help, he doesn't need more daggers thrown at him.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"
ipso facto" ?

Gosh I didn't like the 7 years I spent learning Classical Latin, thanks for the flash back - lol

To the rest? I 100% support and defend your inalienable right to express your opinions without reproach, on this forum and in the world at large.

[dougbush]

James, how would you rate the paint and interior on a scale of 0-10?

[JamesJohn]

I'll try to reply to these questions the best I can. The Plane was 2016. 250TTAF.

[JamesJohn]

To the newcomer OP -


Was a pre-purchase inspection done by you or your agent? Did your sales agreement include anything regarding deposit refunds if you were not satisfied?

If I buy a used car from a private party without having a mechanic or at least a 'mechanically inclined' buddy take a look at it and it turns out to be a clunker, it's all on me and a valuable (costly) life lesson that I'd hope to never repeat.

Frankly I am quite confused as to why one would send $$$ in any large amount to a stranger prior to buying anything sight unseen? Kinda harkens back to getting an e-mail from a Nigerian Prince.



Experimental's tend to sell quick (the good ones anyway). I put down a deposit in good faith that the airplane was as advertised. The contract had a claus in it that provided for a full refund if any major defects were disclosed. I've purchased many things 'unseen' (like from eBay, for example) and they have always been as described.

[Bill Berson]

Would a call to the local county police help?

[JamesJohn]

James, how would you rate the paint and interior on a scale of 0-10?

There were chips in the wings, cracks and dents in the cowling, inside the seats were worn and chips were present on the panel. I would give it 7.5 (ext) and 7 (int). To me a 9.5/9.5 is a plane as good as new yet has been used but is a few years old. For example, my car is a 9.5/9.5. It's 2016 paint has no chips or scratches and inside it looks almost like the day I bought it.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"The contract had a claus in it that provided for a full refund if any major defects were disclosed."


Well there ya' go! Should have mentioned that little detail up front. Take the signed contract, proof of payment and your pictures of the actual vs advertised aircraft to the judge and I'd be expecting the courts to rule in your favor.

[Bill Greenwood]

James , that is certainly a new enough plane that it could and should have good paint, was it kept hangared?
I notice that 250 hours in only 3 year is 83 per year, so the good news is that the plane was being flown, it was being used and not just a mistake that had major construction problems. I think the appearance issues are to be resovled in court.

Have you gone and filed yet? Nothing happens until you take the action, unless writing on this forum is enough for you. You can gripe to us or your bartender or kick your dog but you're not real to the seller until you take action. Good luck.

[JamesJohn]

James , that is certainly a new enough plane that it could and should have good paint, was it kept hangared?
I notice that 250 hours in only 3 year is 83 per year, so the good news is that the plane was being flown, it was being used and not just a mistake that had major construction problems. I think the appearance issues are to be resovled in court.

Have you gone and filed yet? Nothing happens until you take the action, unless writing on this forum is enough for you. You can gripe to us or your bartender or kick your dog but you're not real to the seller until you take action. Good luck.

I'm going to file within the next few weeks. Right now I'm just looking at where to file. The county where he lives or the county where the transaction was supposed to take place. I think I can do either.

[Sabre]

I searched through the posts/threads and did not come across any that discussed selling a partially completed kit. This seemed close so I thought I would ask here. Is there liability to the seller of a partially completed kit? It seems that it's just parts which none are airworthy but, work has been done and I'm wondering if work already completed carries liability with it? Thanks

[Floatsflyer]

I searched through the posts/threads and did not come across any that discussed selling a partially completed kit. This seemed close so I thought I would ask here. Is there liability to the seller of a partially completed kit? It seems that it's just parts which none are airworthy but, work has been done and I'm wondering if work already completed carries liability with it? Thanks

Any and all liability would be taken care of with a simple signing by both buyer and seller of a well written liability waiver.

[Sam Buchanan]

Any and all liability would be taken care of with a simple signing by both buyer and seller of a well written liability waiver.

Until somebody decides to sue....then you will be faced with defense expenses even if the suit has no merit. Nobody can sign away their family members' ability to sue a previous owner.