Changes for Ultralight fun fly zone area for 2020?

[Tom H]

I visited the Ultralight area on my motor bicycle, which I was allowed to park in the yard area on the Knapp St. side of the Red Barn. I saw someone had hand written on the signs there that this was the last year that parking here would be allowed. Then, back home, someone said he had heard that the ultralight field was to be relocated to some private land across Knapp St., possibly near where the helicopters stage.

Anyone know of the details of the changes planned for the Ultralight area?

[FlyingRon]

By private land, it means land the EAA bought I suspect, but yes, the ultralight runway is being moved across Knapp.
I haven't heard what the plans for ground transportation (pedestrians and shuttles) between the existing flight line areas and the new area. Will this be a crossing or will some of Knapp street be closed down during the show?

[CHICAGORANDY]

Sounds like if you didn't like the long walk back from the evening Fun Fly Zone events, you are REALLY gonna be unhappy walking even farther. My first question would be "Why move the runway away from the vendor area?"

[Airmutt]

Yikes! That’s should make things interesting. Do you know if it’s just relocating the runway or is the whole area gonna be moved? The UL barn is always a good place to take. Never crowded and good viewing for the UL strip and Ray 36. Would hate to see the UL & LSA community lose it.

[Bill Berson]

I hope the new runway is longer than the 900 ft currently, and with safer clear approaches.

[Ronald Franck]

Well, since the Goodyear Airship seems to be a thing of the past I say move the helicopter rides to the FunFly Zone and move the ultralights to Pioneer Airport. Seems like a reasonable swap and the north tram could worm it's way over to Pioneer to handle people.

[jowens]

Ronald, that is an excellent idea!!!

[Wrongway Feldman]

If they plan on moving the Ultralight runway across or on the west side of Knapp St. That would mean the Ultralight runway would be on the outside of the Airport fencing or the Show grounds fence, Correct ? That would mean free admission to the public, Correct? The other things is, the only reason a lot of people go down to that area is because of the Ultralight runway and the Ultralight vendors. Unless they plan on replacing the Ultralight runway with something else, to give people a reason to go down there.

It would definitely lighten the Ultralight south tram load if they moved the Ultralight runway and the Ultralight vendors outside of the show grounds. And what would happen to those people camping on the west side of the Ultralight runway?

[FlyingRon]

Sounds like if you didn't like the long walk back from the evening Fun Fly Zone events, you are REALLY gonna be unhappy walking even farther. My first question would be "Why move the runway away from the vendor area?"
I suspect the vendors are moving as well, but am not sure of that.

This is all part of the "no plane left behind" policy. By next year, the EAA wants to not turn away any aircraft (or at least no any recreational vehicles). To do this there's been a lot of land wrangling all around the airport.

[Airmutt]

Moving to Pioneer is never gonna happen. Sounds good at first but if you moved the ULs to Pioneer that would pretty much curtail the daily activities due to its proximity to 27-9 and cuts the Pioneer site in half. There is a lot operational sense keeping located in the SW corner.
Wrongway, don’t plan on the relocated UL area being outside of any fence. There are more than financial reasons to fence it.
Due to the relatively low numbers of aircraft, wouldn’t be surprised to the overall area downsized too.
On the up side, agree with Bill B there should be no excuse for not having a decent runway.
Guess that this all fits into the next year it’s going to be bigger and better comments. Wonder how long this has been in the works....
Well, if anything it’s gonna be interesting to see what develops.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Wrongway, don’t plan on the relocated UL area being outside of any fence. There are more than financial reasons to fence it.
Unless I'm missing something, the original poster said they where moving the UL runway across Knapp street. That means to the west side of Knapp street. The airport fence or show ground fence, at the moment runs parallel to Knapp street and is on the east side of Knapp street. That means the UL runway would be located outside of the fence.

If EAA moves the UL runway further away from the actual show, reinforces my belief that Airventure is becoming a playground just for people with deep pockets. Sad

[Bill Berson]

Not much farther south. The tram or bus could go faster down Knapp, stop at ultralights and continue on Knapp to the South 40 via county road N.

[FlyinAdamBadger]

I didn't hear any announcements about the ultralights moving. I'm sure if this rumor is true, they would have announced or will announce something on the EAA website like they did with the EAA International Federal Pavilion moving or the changes/updates to Camp Scholler. As of right now take this as a grain of salt.

[Kyle Boatright]

I've always been surprised that the UL runway is so close to 18/36. Moving it a bit West is a good idea, IMO.

The sad thing is that the UL area is dead today compared to what it was 20 years ago with a bunch of fat ultralights and neat airplanes that weren't ultralights, but the powers that be ignored it. We still walk down there once a week from HBC, but that trip is becoming harder and harder to rationalize.

[FlyinAdamBadger]

If I hadn't went to the Ultralights area this year, I wouldn't have seen the InnovAviation FX-1, Skeeter Enterprises Valkyrie, Badland F1 UL, and Lockwood Aircraft's Gen-3 AirCam. All of them made their EAA AirVenture debut at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh 2019. I am so glad that I visit the ultralights/light-sport area each year. Plus, the area looked completely full this year.

Plus, by the way did you know Bo Feldman, an 18-year-old pilot, flew his Paramotor all the way from Florida to EAA AirVenture Oshkosh. The newest and hottest thing is the Paramotors. https://youtu.be/wBB8na-ZM6U

[FlyingRon]

It's more than a rumor. I don't know if it will be done by 2020, but it's coming.

[Sam Oleson]

Hello all, the Ultralight Runway and the Fun Fly Zone will not be moving locations for AirVenture 2020. Like with every area on the grounds, during the master planning of AirVenture different options for future growth of the Fun Fly Zone are considered. That said, the Fun Fly Zone has seen a tremendous amount of activity and has really grown in popularity over the past few years and that's something we're excited about!

[Tom H]

OK Sam, thanks for the update.

But, what about the motorcycle parking that up to now has been located on the west lawn of the UL Red Barn? Is there a plan to change the bicycle/motorcycle parking in the area? It sure is convenient to be able to ride from the distant areas, such as Scholler camping, to the UL area and park nearby.

[Sam Oleson]

Hi Tom, I don't have any information about any parking changes as of this time but if there are, that will be something that is updated in either a story, on our website, etc. as AirVenture 2020 approaches.

[Floatsflyer]

Hello all, the Ultralight Runway and the Fun Fly Zone will not be moving locations for AirVenture 2020. Like with every area on the grounds, during the master planning of AirVenture different options for future growth of the Fun Fly Zone are considered. That said, the Fun Fly Zone has seen a tremendous amount of activity and has really grown in popularity over the past few years and that's something we're excited about!

Sam, thanks for the clarity. I, and I'm sure many others here appreciate definitive fact-based responses from HQ that put an end to speculative opinions, heresay and zero evidenced based info that can be seen on this Forum from time to time.

On another thread concerning the UL and Fun Fly Zone, there were numerous complaints concerning the lack of adequate seating(including me) and the fact that for years only the same one small seating bleacher exists. Much more seating (either permanent or temporary) is required because of the fencing, area configuration and unique proximity of viewers to the fence. As you said there's a tremendous amount of activity and popularity growth. We need many, many more bleachers to deal with this growth. Can you ensure that this improvement will occur in 2020 and beyond?

[Sam Oleson]

Hi Floats, if you haven't already, please send an email to feedback@eaa.org about bleacher seating in the Fun Fly Zone. That is the best way to make suggestions, as those comments are forwarded to members of our staff that are in charge of that kind of planning and those kinds of decisions. In fact, if you have suggestions about anything at AirVenture, that would be the best place to send them. That way, our staff can see which issues our members are most concerned about and we can make improvements where necessary. Thank you!

[Floatsflyer]

Thanks Sam, I will email the suggestion/comments as noted.

[Floatsflyer]

If EAA moves the UL runway further away from the actual show, reinforces my belief that Airventure is becoming a playground just for people with deep pockets. Sad


Sorry Wrongway, I don't get your equivelancy. If you're referring to costs for UL's, LSA's, HB's and the choppers that all play at the UL runway, have you checked out the completion price of a Just Aircraft($150K plus) or an Aircam($250K plus) for example? Deep pockets required!!

[Bill Berson]

The bleachers actually block the show from the majority trying to see in.

[Floatsflyer]

The bleachers actually block the show from the majority trying to see in.

NO! Actually it's the first and possibly the second row of people standing in front of the fence on flat ground that block the show from the majority behind them trying to see. Many bleachers in close proximity to the fence would allow the majority of people to comfortably see all the activity.

The problem is that the fence is literally the flightline, right on top of and next to the runway. If it was much further back, then more standing room only people could see the activity without obstruction. It's all about POV.

[Bill Berson]

Yeah, the bleachers need to be further back or removed. Like the main show on runway 36.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Sorry Wrongway, I don't get your equivalency. If you're referring to costs for UL's, LSA's, HB's and the choppers that all play at the UL runway, have you checked out the completion price of a Just Aircraft($150K plus) or an Aircam($250K plus) for example? Deep pockets required!! I guess I was talking about the R/C (Radio Controlled) planes that they have at the UL runway. Those R/C planes seem to draw a younger crowd, which helps to get the next generation of kids interested in aviation. I feel that the R/C planes are a good affordable entry level starting point into aviation. The next level would be powered paragliding. So on and so forth.

There are no other places at AirVenture, that I know of that provides an affordable entry level starting point for the next gen.

By moving the UL runway farther away just seems like you're sending the wrong message to the next generation of aviators. Something like they aren't good enough because they don't have a pocket full of cash to buy a real plane.
Then again, I'm kind of a sensitive guy.

RC Plane Fun Zone - AirVenture 2019 Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrqwu0hhLY)

RC Helicopter - Twilight Fun Fest - AirVenture 2019 Video
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwVBTNb7Iiw)

[Ronald Franck]

Moving the flightline back somewhat or adding more bleachers won't solve the problem. The main problem is the topography. It drops away.
More bleachers will benefit those lucky few who grab a seat. The STOL competition needs to be moved to the main runway at Show Central
as it continues to draw more and more conventioneers. There was even a Cessna 180 and Cessna 170 operating off the "Fun Fly Zone".
Give the UL runway back to UL aircraft.

[Airmutt]

I for one like the close proximity to the runway. Sorry, it’s just not the same experience if it’s on 36. Yes, the area screams for spectator and runway improvements.
It’s kinda a self fulfilling prophecy. No activity/spectators - no improvements. Don’t believe it; look what happened on the other end of the field. HBC numbers have been on the rise and EAA built a pavilion for the campers. I don’t see any internal or EAA lead initiative to get the UL/LSA community to help itself. Folks on that end of the field are truly lucky as they are the only ones that get to fly (onsite) during the week. Why not encourage that. There a lot of folks that get parked south of there that would love the chance to take the area over.

[Bill Berson]

I think a new runway could be engineered for spectator viewing. The runway sides could be dug down slightly so spectators at the fence line would be lower. Others on the upward slope behind them could see over them.

[Tom H]

"By moving the UL runway farther away just seems like you're sending the wrong message to the next generation of aviators."

Wrongway, I agree that the ULs should be provided a place to fly during the day, as is done now, that is close to the larger event. The UL activity encourages younger folks, and many others, to get involved. However, the present runway location may present some potential safety issues to the surrounding activities. Taking off on the UL runway to the N-W takes the airplane over the private campground, which is usually packed. There is supposed to be a non-inhabited emergency strip through that campground, but when I was flying last year, it was full of campers, leaving no good options for takeoff problems. Last year a Just Highlander, I believe, was doing a "show-off" takeoff and stalled just short of the fence, hit the ground, and was caught in the fence. If that stall had occurred 50 feet further, no telling how many camping units and folks on the other side of the fence would have been involved.

The final approach to land in that same direction requires flying a very careful route to avoid flying over the airplanes parked along RW36, and close to a line of trees.

Taking off in the other direction gives little option if trouble occurs during initial climb-out.

And, the runway this year was essentially shortened because the landing thresholds were moved in, probably to reduce the low altitudes over people of landing airplanes.

There may be other reasons, but I think one reason is EAA may be looking to relocate the runway to continue to allow flying, but to eliminate many of the safety issues. I don't think there have been any real serious accidents there, but if the activities continue as is, it is just a matter of time. Unfortunately.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrqwu0hhLY)

[mazdaP5]

I noticed a tree in the emergency strip in the campground this year as well.

[Airmutt]

I saw it happen. It was definitely a max effort takeoff and climb out. He impacted at the base of the fence just inside of the grounds. You‘re right it could have been worse. Luckily there was no fire. The response time for any emergency services was awful.....like nearly 20 minutes plus. For an area that has flying activities it’s baffling that there was no support; not even a volunteer response with basic firefighting equipment.

[CHICAGORANDY]

With all the Gators and golf carts on the grounds, you'd think there would be a couple equipped for basic fire-fighting at the UL strip?

[Floatsflyer]

I saw it happen. The response time for any emergency services was awful.....like nearly 20 minutes plus. For an area that has flying activities it’s baffling that there was no support; not even a volunteer response with basic firefighting equipment.

Unfortunately and inexplicably, this appears to be SOP for Oshkosh accidents. I have wktnessed some awful events on 36-18 during and outside of show times where emergency response times have been horribly slow.

The crashes that standout where ER was so slow are the father and son Mustangs that hit one another upon landing on 36. There was fire and the son died. The Premier exec jet flown by Jack Rousch that crashed on approach to 18 just south of show centre witnessed by thousands on the burn line. It ended up pancaking facing north on the west side of the taxiway so close to those spectators who were waiting for the explosion that luckily never happened but with turbines whining at deafening decibels. Serious injuries to Rousch with no apparent physical injuries to his female companion.

[PaulDow]

... standout where ER was so slow are the father and son Mustangs that hit one another upon landing on 36. There was fire and the son died.

I was down there during that Mustang collision too. With the way the plane flipped and came down hard on the canopy, I don’t think there was any chance to survive that.
I recall there was a review of the incident, and now I think there’ a truck ready at the south end during the show.

i believe air show rules there don’t allow formation landings, and even if they did, that one was done incorrectly with the lead plane touching down first. I don't think the front plane even knew there was someone behind so close.

A problem with volunteers having fire fighting equipment is that it may open up the liability can of worms. Even though something is better than nothing, it may require training and record keeping. Better communications may be a reasonable way to quickly activate the professional rescue crews already on site. If there was a 20 minute response delay to that UL field incident, probably no one thought to call 911, or had the on field emergency phone number.

[FlyingRon]

If this had been an actual formation flight, they'd have managed better (such is certainly *NOT* prohibited in the airshow). The problem was they were just two close together P-51's with inadequate visual look out and awareness of their relative locations.

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20070801X01080&key=1

[PaulDow]

Of course formation flight, and takeoffs are fine. I thought there was something about formation landings. I can’t find any show pilot briefing documents online to check. It’s been a few years, so its likely some of the old synapses in my brain loosened up and got disconnected.

[Airmutt]

Yay, saw those accidents too. Warbirds use volunteers as fire guards. There are volunteers who work in the first aid stations. Auto racing uses volunteers on their courses. Also remember when the A26’s nose gear folded up and they couldn’t get off the wing. Personally I would have a couple of trained volunteers with fire bottles nearby rather than wait 20+ minutes for the professionals to show up.

[FlyingRon]

Yay, saw those accidents too. Warbirds use volunteers as fire guards. There are volunteers who work in the first aid stations. Auto racing uses volunteers on their courses. Also remember when the A26’s nose gear folded up and they couldn’t get off the wing. Personally I would have a couple of trained volunteers with fire bottles nearby rather than wait 20+ minutes for the professionals to show up.
Only the inane racing venues use "volunteers" for rescue. The best series carry an entire safety crew with them. The lesssr series (unfortunately, this include NASCAR) delegates the authority to the individual venue which could get you anything form the local Bubbas-in-a-box to some of the best EMS in the country.

[Airmutt]

Volunteer or professional, the point was any type of response should have not that kind of time. Now there was no fire and both guys got out with minor injuries so that may have played into the timing. With flight ops on three runways perhaps the services are spread too thin.

[FlyingRon]

Five runways. 18/36L and R, 9-27, UL, and Pioneer.