Kit advice

[Bruinpilot]

I want to do a kit. I am just in the planning stages, and have never done anything like this before. I am not sure what kit I want. I know that the mission needs to be defined, and I have a rough definition and some thoughts on kits. Any suggestions or information is greatly appreciated. I also apologize in advance as this is a bit of stream of consciousness thinking and not highly organized, but I am just starting.

First, I fly for a living, and don’t need to get in the air. I don’t care if this project takes ten years. My main goal is to learn and have a fun project. My young children are interested as well. Honestly, I would not care if I did not finish, provided I did not have a ton of money invested. In that sense, plans only kits might be a decent option. It looks to me like there the likelihood of finishing would be low, but the money invested upfront is smaller. (Though I could see it becoming more expensive over the lifetime of a finished project...) there are many kits that look great, but with the cost of those mostly between 20-30k sans engine, if I saved up for one and bought it, it would be a must finish. (However, just with my beginning assessment, it looks like most standard build kits would be fairly easy provided they had good instructions.) I don’t feel intimidated by anything in a kit but cost, while the plans option is a bit intimidating, but I could see it being a cool learning experience.

So so the first mission for this aircraft is the experience of the build. The next items are preferences. I want cheap to store and cheap to operate (probably folding wings would be best). I think I would prefer tube and fabric construction. I also want something I could teach my son to fly in one day. I also would like some off airport ability, but not looking for a hard core bush plane (though I wouldn’t mind one.) My wife says four seats would be nice, but I think that would take it outside my budget for the build and future operating costs.

it it seems to me that the Kitfox, just Aircraft Highlander and the Ran’s S20 may fit my bill the best. I also like the vans rv7 and 9. They don’t fit my bill as well, but it seems that their support, manuals and kits are incredible and I like the pricing structure on the kits where you can do a piece at a time so one could save up for the next bit while working on another. I also saw a Bearhawk, and while the kit is out of my price range, it has a plans only option which could make for a good learning experience, and it has the advantage of a lower upfront investment if I feel that it is not going to work out. However, it has higher operating costs etc. later in the build and when finished.

I would be working out of my small 2 car garage. I am good at working on cars, but don’t have any welding or fabrication skills (as of right now anyway). This might be a negative toward the plans route.

thanks for any thoughts.

[Auburntsts]

An RV-12 might work as well -- super easy construction, removable wings, plus the vast RV community which you already mentioned.

[DaleB]

I was in a similar situation. I have an airplane, so I don't NEED to finish another one, but I wanted a pay-as-you-go, low pressure option. I don't weld, and don't really want to take the time and spend the money to get good enough that I'd trust a fuselage that I welded myself. That left me looking for either a kit with a pre-welded fuse, or all wood. You might want to look at Fisher Flying Products kits. I'm building a Celebrity, but they also make others that might be closer to what you want.

Airdrome Aeroplanes makes some one- and two-seat WWI era biplanes. Aluminum and fabric, though some have welded 4130 tube fuselages. Not terribly expensive, with pretty flexible engine options on some.

[Bruinpilot]

I wonder if I can start one plans only, and if I run into something I don’t feel comfortable doing, then buy the kit.

[Auburntsts]

I wonder if I can start one plans only, and if I run into something I don’t feel comfortable doing, then buy the kit.

Sure, but it depends on the make/model. Some of the designs, RV's for example, are only available in kit form and don't have a plans only option.

[robert l]

I wonder if I can start one plans only, and if I run into something I don’t feel comfortable doing, then buy the kit.

Bruin, I started scratch building the Zenith CH-701 and really enjoyed the process. However, my work took me out of town for months at a time and now, having only completed part of it, I've lost interest. I'm going to sell, or donate what I have built and look for something flying. I ain't gettin any younger.
Bob

[CarlOrton]

Both Sonex and Zenith offer plans only options. You can still buy any or all parts you don’t want to fabricate. For example, you can buy all the steel weldments if you can’t weld. Or you can still buy the sub kits if you decide you want to save some time.

[Bruinpilot]

Bob,

i was really looking at getting something with a tail wheel, but the zenith looks pretty cool. I need to look at it a bit more. How much have you done on it?

[DaleB]

I wonder if I can start one plans only, and if I run into something I don’t feel comfortable doing, then buy the kit.
Fisher will happily sell you individual parts, a complete kit, a component (wing/fuse/whatever) kit, or whatever else you want. I suspect most other places will as well.

[Auburntsts]

Bob,

i was really looking at getting something with a tail wheel, but the zenith looks pretty cool. I need to look at it a bit more. How much have you done on it?

OK, lets start over then. It would be helpful to know more so we can give you better advice. What's your mission and what characteristics/ performance specs are desirable? So far we have budget of $20K-30K minus engine, plans built a an option, removable wings a plus, and tailwheel. What else?

[Bruinpilot]

That’s about it, I would only add that I prefer foldable to removable wings, and I would like docile enough characteristics in order to teach my kids to fly in it. I am also 6’2”, so I need something me headroom. I don’t mind small, just don’t like banging my head. For the most part though, it looks like you nailed it down.

The zenith is looking very very good to me, but not a tail wheel. It is close enough of a fit to what I want that I might sacrifice the tail wheel. (And I would have to sacrifice any attachment to good looks. That airplane ain’t easy on the eyes.)

[Auburntsts]

My bad on the wings — I meant to say folding not removable. Unfortunately I personally don’t have any recommendations on a specific plane, but if there’s anyway you can get to either Sun-Fun or Oshkosh next year to sit in actual airframes before pulling the trigger, that’s what I’d recommend.

[robert l]

Bob,

i was really looking at getting something with a tail wheel, but the zenith looks pretty cool. I need to look at it a bit more. How much have you done on it?

The wings are complete, minus slats, and have factory fuel tanks, the rudder was the first thing I built. And the elevator and stabilizer are also finished. I really enjoyed the process, sometimes it was head scratching time but for the most part, it's pretty simple, I just ran out of time and kinda lost interest. If I didn't have some pressing home stuff to do, I'd buy the fuselage kit and go on with it. I left the slats off so there are no slat openings in the wing. I talked with a couple of guys at there September Open Hanger several years ago and they had taken theirs off and used V/G on the wing and stabilizer and said it was better. Also, one of them had a Geo Metro engine installed and said it performed like a Rotax 912. If I had something to fly now, I'd finish it.
Bob

[Bill Berson]

If you don't intend to finish (post 1), then just get some metal and try building something. Or buy some unfinished project. The value of unfinished anything is very low. Deals are out there.

[Bruinpilot]

Well, I would prefer to finish, but if I didn’t have much invested then I would be happy with just learning opportunity. That may be an option, just buy some metal and start welding on it...

[robert l]

I really liked working with aluminum, it's amazing what you can do with just a few tools !
Bob

[Sam Buchanan]

Let's see if we can distill this down a bit..... ;)




My main goal is to learn and have a fun project.

....I did not have a ton of money invested.

cheap to store

cheap to operate (probably folding wings would be best).

I would prefer tube and fabric construction.

I also want something I could teach my son to fly in one day.

I also would like some off airport ability

My wife says four seats would be nice,

I would be working out of my small 2 car garage.

don’t have any welding or fabrication skills



Prefer tube and fabric....but no welding skills....cheap to store and operate.....but wife wants four seats....

Uhhhhh, something has to give here.... :)

Perhaps, if the four seat option can be eliminated because that takes you into a far different class of aircraft, a wood aircraft might be your best option. Wood is pleasant to work with, only requires basic shop tools, can be purchased in small and relatively inexpensive quantities, and can be built from either plans or kits. It also gives you the fabric experience without the welding. There are many great wood aircraft available, many with decades of field history. Wood is a great material to share with children, they relate to it (big model airplane!)...and it makes the shop smell nice!

Just be sure you select an aircraft that will accommodate two adult-size occupants....your son won't be a little kid forever. This may be a challenge since many wood aircraft were designed before adults became bubba-sized.

Best wishes, and enjoy the journey!

[Ronald Franck]

Well, I would prefer to finish, but if I didn’t have much invested then I would be happy with just learning opportunity. That may be an option, just buy some metal and start welding on it...

Today's kit manufactures, using CAD and CNC technology, matched hole assemblies and comprehensive hardware packages have made a large impact on the completion rates of today's home assembled projects while retaining the value of the builder's initial investment. Your average homebuilder would be hard pressed to duplicate the quality and fit of the parts when building from plans, nor would the builder experience any great savings in the process.
If it's experience you're after you might consider a group build or sign up for a SportAir Workshop or two.
Good luck in your endeavors.

[Bruinpilot]

Thanks for the good info. I agree about nailing down 4 seats or two. Believe it or not, I am more intimidated by wood than learning to weld. I have built with wood and have never been as good as I would like. I view wood working as a true art form. Welding looks like something I would ultimately be better at once learned, plus I have always had this secret itch to learn to weld. I think on he plans built route, I would get plenty of opportunity to work wood making forms and jigs. Though I could be wrong. Again all of the insights are great. I am at a point where if I could nail down 4 seats and commit to the expense, i think the easy choice for me would be a Bearhawk. However, I am really struck by the allure of something smaller that I could keep in my garage and run on auto fuel. These are tougher decisions than I imagined. Luckily I have plenty of time and this great resource to help figure it out.

[lathropdad]

You might look at the Bearhawk line of airplanes. You can scratch build from plans or buy kits. Or do some combination of both. There is a 4 place, a Patrol which is 2 place tamdom (think Super Cub), and a LSA similar to the Patrol. Great support and great community of builders.

[dclaxon]

Welding looks like something I would ultimately be better at once learned, plus I have always had this secret itch to learn to weld.

You might check and see if there is a Jr. College in your area that has a welding class you could take a couple of evenings a week.

Dave

[planecrazzzy]

Steve Wittman built SIMPLE...Planes..... FAST is the 1956 W-10 Tailwind.....Slow is the 1938 Buttercup ( Moveable front leading edge-Also LSA class )

Tube and Rag...

Forums for Building help (Tailwind and Buttercup )

My signature has a Link to my Buttercup Building Log

Here are pictures of My Projects...

First one was a Kolb Firestar II ( Homer Kolb has planes in the SMITHSONIAN ...)

My Other project... Wittman Buttercup...

Yes , Oshkosh is held on WITTMAN FIELD

These are Both easy to Build...

My First one was a KIT... two part.

My plans-built aircraft is a lot more plane for less money.

It's kind of pay as you go.

This is just my too sense...
.
Building occupies my mind and keeps me outa trouble

Gotta Fly...

PS Consider the Climate... Wood projects are particular about moister...

Another thing to consider... a rebuild... A strip down the fabric back to bare bones...repairs , blasting ,Epoxy Paint
When you start out...You have ALL THE PARTS...
My Buttercup is taking a long time... Once it's finally in the air... IF I attempt another , I'd like a rebuild I think.
And you get credit for the Repairman's Cert.

[Bruinpilot]

That’s a sweet looking project! I think I finally nailed down what I want. I think wood would be bad in our humid climate here. I have doors and stuff around my house swelling all the time.

Anyways, I want to find a plans only with a decent support community of builders. I want it to be a taildragger, side by side seats, tube and fabric or all metal (tube and fabric preferably), and also would really like folding wings and the possibility to power with Rotax.

how do you like that Kolb. I was thinking along the lines of a more traditional aircraft, but that Kolb looks cool. I like the two seats.

[robert l]

Now those are sweet, I mean SWEET !!! Except the last one, that's kinda scary !
Bob

[planecrazzzy]

That’s a sweet looking project! I think I finally nailed down what I want. I think wood would be bad in our humid climate here. I have doors and stuff around my house swelling all the time.

Anyways, I want to find a plans only with a decent support community of builders. I want it to be a taildragger, side by side seats, tube and fabric or all metal (tube and fabric preferably), and also would really like folding wings and the possibility to power with Rotax.

how do you like that Kolb. I was thinking along the lines of a more traditional aircraft, but that Kolb looks cool. I like the two seats.

I have the tandem seats with no controls in the back ... Other Kolbs have side by side
This flys like a plane... some light aircraft are more draggy.

Yes, when looking to build ....a Forum is mandatory for your safety.
Other builders and A&P's are on the forums....
They have helped me a lot.

Your plane might be a Kolb Mark or the Rip Snorting "KOLBRA"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5WSIm4Uc-s


Gotta Fly...

[Sam Buchanan]

That’s a sweet looking project! I think I finally nailed down what I want. I think wood would be bad in our humid climate here. I have doors and stuff around my house swelling all the time.

Anyways, I want to find a plans only with a decent support community of builders. I want it to be a taildragger, side by side seats, tube and fabric or all metal (tube and fabric preferably), and also would really like folding wings and the possibility to power with Rotax.

how do you like that Kolb. I was thinking along the lines of a more traditional aircraft, but that Kolb looks cool. I like the two seats.

If you decide not to pursue a wood airframe, that is fine, builder's discretion. :)

But for clarification, a humid climate is not an impediment to building or owning a wood aircraft. I built four wood airframes in Alabama in a non-HVAC shop, a very humid environment. Aircraft-quality wood is stable with tight grain and it receives a sealer as part of the build process. From that point on it is impervious to climate changes. Lots of wood aircraft (and watercraft!) out there that have been in service a long time..... :)

[Eric Witherspoon]

Anyways, I want to find a plans only with a decent support community of builders. I want it to be a taildragger, side by side seats, tube and fabric or all metal (tube and fabric preferably), and also would really like folding wings and the possibility to power with Rotax.

I'm going to mention Sonex as having most of what you mention. Extensive community, many active builders, many flying examples (for sample rides & transition). Taildragger, side-by-side (1 or 2 sticks), all metal. They don't support Rotax, but factory support their VW-based engine & Jabiru, also that other brand (name escapes me). Big thing is plans build. Pay as you go, lower cost than kit, and really good performance for the money. As for lower storage costs, with ~23 foot wingspan, I always shared a 40 foot hangar with another plane to split the cost.

[thisadviceisworthles]

I'm going to mention Sonex as having most of what you mention. Extensive community, many active builders, many flying examples (for sample rides & transition). Taildragger, side-by-side (1 or 2 sticks), all metal. They don't support Rotax, but factory support their VW-based engine & Jabiru, also that other brand (name escapes me). Big thing is plans build. Pay as you go, lower cost than kit, and really good performance for the money. As for lower storage costs, with ~23 foot wingspan, I always shared a 40 foot hangar with another plane to split the cost.

The new B design does support the Rotax. The B model cannot be scratch built, but I have heard good things about Sonex kits. The "issues" I have heard about Sonex were with the Aerovee Engines, and one instance of low quality construction on a quick build kit (but it was minor enough that I don't even think the builder returned it, he just fixed it).

My only biggest recommendation with Sonex is to in fly one before you get too far, they don't fly like most LSAs (which many kits of that size seem to try for). Reach out to them about finding a LODA holder if you cannot travel to KOSH.

[Scooper]

The Zenith CH650 light sport is configurable as a taildragger and the new canopy has plenty of headroom.

Zenith CH650 Zodiac (http://www.zenithair.net/introduction-ch650/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaAhXOa9q0o

[WBAEngineer]

Those 650s look cool as a tailwheel. Zenith has some green one's on their website that are pretty good looking, even for a zenith.