Trams. Oh, those Trams

[ssteve1]

If it were not for the Trams (note uppercase) I would have taken a pass on Oshkosh long ago. Thank You!!! Of course it's frustrating when a tram pulls up at the stop, it's full, and no one gets off, BUT, I ain't walking five miles to the ultralights and then another five miles back to my tent. I'll wait for the next tram, and if the next one is full, I'll wait.

Drivers. No way, no fricking way I would drive a tractor hauling two trailers full of mostly decent, but, a few rude folks through one of the most busy streets laden with people herding their children, others staring at the sky or heads down into their cell phones, golf cart races, weaving scooters, 4X4 pick ups, fork lifts, high loaders, well, you were there, you saw it all. But, nope. I'm not gonna drive in that scene. HATS OFF TO THE TRAM DRIVERS!!!

Conductors. You guys are cool. You guys are patient! Yes, I was the guy that stood at stop 4 and let three trams go by just to catch the one with ChicagoRandy. He's a treat. He should train all the Conductors. And, Randy, thanks for pointing out the tribute to Jerry's One Man Band. Hopefully, next year the EAA can upgrade the cardboard picture of Jerry. But, a nice tribute.

Trams. Thanks for a GREAT Oshkosh!!!

[CHICAGORANDY]

Well, thank you Steve! I live for the 9 days I am privileged to spend sharing airplanes and people up at Oshkosh each year. If I didn't truly love the experience I wouldn't travel 50 miles one way every day just to get from the motel I can afford to the grounds. Then spend 8-12 hours a day bouncing at the back of a rig with little suspension. Yet Tram conducting for me is worth it.

Giving a ham, corny comic a microphone and a captive audience? Heaven on Earth - LOL

It was truly heartwarming for me to see at least a small recognition of Jerry's contribution to the atmosphere of AirVenture for all those decades. The benches dedicated to him and his wife seem a fitting memorial. I hope they add a CD player and speaker to it next year. That would be great!

For any who were fortunate enough NOT to ride along with me this year - lol - I can give you this sample: "See that grove of trees over there on my right? Right there is the OFFICIAL EAA dogwood tree. You can tell which one is the dogwood tree by the bark." and - "Thanks to modern aviation related technology, you no longer need a parachute to skydive. You now only need a parachute to skydive TWICE." These are the jokes folks, they don't get any better but they will come more frequently during our ride. And on it went for 9 days - lol

One of my personal fav's - "Today's tram ride is sponsored by Jenkins & Bixby, Oshkosh's ONLY veterinarian-taxidermy shoppe. Their motto? 'Either way it goes you get Fluffy back."

My room for 2020 has been booked for several months already. And I can hardly wait. I do luv me some airplanes and airplane people.

[krw920]

Randy, If you want to be a little closer, PM me and lets see if my room that I rent out each year is in your price level. It is about 15 miles off the grounds in the quiet town of Omro.

Thanks for enjoying one of the hardest jobs on the grounds!

[deftone]

We decided to hoof it everywhere this year instead of taking trams (we are on a health kick right now) so I cannot comment personally, but I do think I heard a lot less complaints this year. The trams are normally a hot topic. I CAN say that the buses this year were running much better. I know they made some route changes and it really seemed to help things move smoothly.

[Michael McGrew]

Long time North-forty
camper this year was by far the best tram and bus transportation congratulation guys great job

[FlyingRon]

Despite complaints, the tram system seems to be working well. It was rare this year that we didn't get on a tram even when not boarding at the terminus. The tram volunteers and most of the passengers were pretty considerate.

Some issues of note:

The signage appears to be getting worse. Some stops lack signage at all. Most only mark one side of the road when the trams are passing in both directions. The signage content is useless. It doesn't tell you anything. It's also confusing to most people what is going on when the trams are replaced by the school buses in the evening. Every tram stop should have a sign with the tram color and WHERE THE TRAM GOES TO. This would alleviate much of the confusion.

The tram system should be better documented on the program/maps.

This year several times (notably at the Hangar Cafe blue/yellow terminus), the marshalers have announced "one seat" left or things like that. Sometimes a single visitor was allowed to jump ahead groups in lines, sometimes not. This is confusing and lead to a lot of gripes (both from singles not allowed to take a seat left empty on the departing tram or people waiting ahead of them in line). A policy needs to be decided on this and stuck to.

What happens to the trams (and many other things) when the "post airshow" road closures go into effect needs to be announced better. What did happen to the trams? Did they just U-turn at the exhibit buildings or did they reroute up and aorund the main gates?

[mazdaP5]

I was hit by a tram this week. Really only a matter of time. I was buying an ice cream at the cart by the theater. I was not hanging around in the street, I was actively handing the vendor money, when the tram car hit my backpack, and THEN, somebody said "watch out!" No, I wasn't hurt, but a close call is too close for my comfort. Also, hit somebody with a vehicle and drive off outside of those gates, see how that goes for you. I recognize that the trams are somewhat necessary, but the full speed ahead damn the torpedoes approach needs to be rethink-ed. Driving through crowds of thousands of people is going to end up in serious injury or worse, it's only a matter of time, it WILL happen. Somehow there needs to be clear tram routes that are no pedestrian, and pedestrian routes that are not vehicle.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"Somehow there needs to be clear tram routes that are no pedestrian, and pedestrian routes that are not vehicle. "

Never gonna happen. The grounds are already crammed to capacity with vendors and exhibits. Pedestrian travel will never be impeded anywhere on site. Trams are already restricted to the paved roads. Issues arise when pedestrians walk several abreast down the center of the pavement, oblivious to the world around them. Same goes for mobility scooter riders who often demonstrate poor judgement in where they run their scooters. The Yellow tram route is rather uniquely plagued by massive congestion of people and vehicles, not so much on Blue, Green or Red.

"
What happens to the trams (and many other things) when the "post airshow" road closures go into effect needs to be announced better. What did happen to the trams? Did they just U-turn at the exhibit buildings or did they reroute up and aorund the main gates? "

To accommodate the incredible crowds of pedestrians at the evening airshows, the Yellow, Green and Red trams are taken out of service 30 minutes early (about 7:30ish rather than 8:00) because EAA Security closes down the North-South roads we use. We start up again the next morning. I honestly don't know if the school buses are also restricted after the evening airshows. I announce the early closure events on ALL my tram runs starting at about 5:00pm.

EVERY tram stop pylon has the appropriate color pennant flying from the top of the pylon. I agree they need to be on both sides of the road and have simple signage indicating direction and upcoming stops.

[skyfixer8]

Mazda, I am surprised more people haven t been brushed by the trams. I drive on day shift, usually yellow route where I have to put up with the vendors putting their carts, signs, etc. on the edge of the road. If they would put this stuff back on the grass far enough so people wouldnt have to stand in the road, the brushing rate would be a lot lower. The Subway stand is always crowded into the road. I had problems this year with the Continental folks putting their stuff on the road which caused a choke point. The scantily dressed ladies they were using caused lots of people to be in the road looking at them.

[FlyingRon]

A friend of mine who was driving one of the trams ran Jim Campbell into a puddle once. He swears it was purely accidental.

[Ronald Franck]

I studied the Tram routes (again) this year and I would suggest they do away with the switching of trams at the south end of the yellow route (at the Hanger Cafe) and simply make it a continuous run, combining the Blue and the Yellow tram lines into one. This new line would run from Tram Central (behind the Control Tower) along both the current Yellow and Blue routes and terminate at the South 40 where everyone would be required to depart the tram and wait for the next tram to return them north.
I realize the Hanger Cafe stop is a point in the system where drivers and conductors switch out from time to time, and that could continue, but eliminating two sets of 180 degree turns would not only be safer for everyone but staying on Wittman Road would be much more efficient moving people from north to south and back again.
I would also suggest putting signs on the trams (yea, more signs) that say "Please do not ask the driver or conductor for information or directions. They are busy enough and don't need the distractions." There are ground personnel who can handle that task.
Lastly, but most importantly, "Thank You" to the tram folks for all you do for the rest of us. It's truly appreciated.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Hi Ronald,

Actually the tram service using two 'terminals', one at the Tower and the other at the Hangar Café, improves our efficiency and allows more unique people to take advantage of the service overall. A 'terminal point-to-terminal point' system like we employ allows us to empty the trams at each end and give others a chance to ride. Those who use the trams just for a nice 'ride' rather than go to a specific area at AirVenture can always re-enter at the back of the line of people waiting at our terminals for their 'turn'.

If end point tram emptying were eliminated, as few as 40 people per hour would get to ride them, because I guarantee you that the seats would be filled with the same group from start to finish, who got on at the Tower and went all the way to Ultralights before 'de-tramming' and vice versa. I guarantee it. If you think some are unhappy a full tram didn't allow them to get on at one stop now? Multiply that by 2 miles of stops. It would be chaotic.

I have mentioned in another post the mathematical/logistical challenge of trying to conveniently and expediently moving some 70,000+ potential wanna-be riders on vehicles that can carry just 40 at a time. I think the tram service as designed and operated is doing an amazing job of people moving, considering the operational realities of a finite number of trams and more importantly the finite resource of volunteers to keep them running for 12 hours a day.

I think some would agree that AirVenture can occasionally seem like a victim of its own success and relatively short overall duration of just a week. Kinda hard to float funding for massive infrastructure improvements across the huge acreage for a private party that lasts only 7 days. Disney can do it because its parks are open year round and they charge a small fortune to visit.

[Ronald Franck]

If end point tram emptying were eliminated, as few as 40 people per hour would get to ride them, because I guarantee you that the seats would be filled with the same group from start to finish, who got on at the Tower and went all the way to Ultralights before 'de-tramming' and vice versa. I guarantee it.
Re-read my orginal post, Randy. I never suggested nor implied that point emptying be eliminated. What I suggested is that it be moved from the Hangar Café to the end of the South 40 route. Most southbound riders would have gotten off by the time the tram has passed Tall Pines Cafe. Upon arriving at the South 40 the remaining few riders would disembark and then, if wanting to return north would be required to wait for the next tram, even if that now departing tram is nearly empty.
I understand the emptying of the trams behind the Control Tower because the bulk of your riders scatter to the four winds from there, going to all points on the compass. That situation doesn't apply to the Hangar Cafe location.
While the concessionaire at the Hangar Cafe may appreciate you delivering hundreds of potential customers on his doorstep what other purpose is there to dumping everyone off at the Hanger Café? What is the central attraction at that location that would entice everyone to disembark? There is none. 90+% of those riders are there simply because they wish to continue on in the same direction, either toward the Ultralight area or toward Tram Central behind the Control Tower. The only reason there are hundreds of people waiting at the Hangar Cafe location is because the trams gods deemed it so. The powers-that-be have created havoc for no other reason than for havoc's sake. That makes no sense. Having the Yellow and Blue Trams do their criss-crossing, 180 degree turn-round dance is the antipathy of efficiency and less than safe. My plan would simply eliminate that mess at the Hanger Café and keep people moving. Try it, you might just like it.
As for the trams being full at every other location along the routes, that falls again on the tram powers-that-be. They insist that the trams be filled to capacity at each end of their respective runs, even if it means waiting to fill each and every seat while there is another empty tram waiting right behind them.

[FlyingRon]

It's still unworkable Ronald. The bulk of the traffic is the yellow line tram. Not emptying them at the ends of the central area will make them largely disfunctional.

[Bill Greenwood]

I agree with Ron, that i'd prefer to be able to ride all the way to ultralights as choice without a mandatory stop at the café.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"i'd prefer to be able to ride all the way to ultralights as choice without a mandatory stop at the café. "

THANK YOU Bill, for making my point. Purt near EVERYONE who gets on at the Tower IS of your preference. Which makes for exactly 40 'happy riders' from the Tower ALL THE WAY to the Ultralight flightline….. and immediately makes multiples of that 40 P.O'd would-be passengers who that tram passed by because it was full.

Mandatory mid and end-point tram emptying (for now) is about the only 'kinda fair' way to try and serve as many unique people as possible who ALL want to not have to walk for a little while. I also support trying to save at least one empty row on the tram when we leave a station to provide that ride opportunity to folks at our first stop. Remember that trams were created way back when simply only to serve the elderly and infirm who NEED to ride. Mobility scooters eliminate that need, at least for those who can afford them.

IF a bazzillionaire donated a blank check to EAA to build an autonomous monorail loop with 10 trains of twenty cars each that ran 24/7 during AirVenture….and it WOULD take a mighty BIG check….. there would STILL be hundreds who got upset because the train was full and they had to wait or walk. Some 80,000+ came through the gates daily. 80,000! Trams or buses can only hold 40 at a time.

***edited to correct my math. Per the recent EAA e-mail 640,000 people came through the gates. Presuming that meant over the 7 days? That would be 91,428 people per day. If it meant over 9 days? That's still 71,000 bodies per day.

[Ronald Franck]

THANK YOU Bill, for making my point. Purt near EVERYONE who gets on at the Tower IS of your preference. Which makes for exactly 40 'happy riders' from the Tower ALL THE WAY to the Ultralight flightline….. and immediately makes multiples of that 40 P.O'd would-be passengers who that tram passed by because it was full.

Mandatory mid and end-point tram emptying (for now) is about the only 'kinda fair' way to try and serve as many unique people as possible.

Randy, you miss the point completely. There are very, very few "unique" riders at the Hangar Café terminal. That throng of humanity was artificially placed here by forcing everyone off.
Thinking 71,000 bodies come daily to ride the tram is, well, one of your better jokes.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I think it appropriate to suggest that we agree to disagree. Granted, I've only spent over a decade in the tram service, so I gladly bow to your expertise in the matter. My experience has brought me to the opinions I currently hold on the subject, as yours does you. And that's fine by me. At the end of each day, it's only free tram rides for the tired masses under discussion, it ain't like we're curing world hunger or creating world peace ner nuthin'.

[MEdwards]

Randy, you miss the point completely. There are very, very few "unique" riders at the Hangar Café terminal.How ‘bout all those airplane campers within a quarter mile N-S of the cafe, where i’ve parked many years? How ‘bout me, though I parked farther south this year, who walked to the Hangar Cafe to catch a tram five times in four days? How ‘bout those people just north of there who choose to walk to the Hangar Cafe to get on a tram because they know it’ll probably be full if they try to get on at Vintage? Randy’s got it right.
Mike E

[robert l]

How ‘bout all those airplane campers within a quarter mile N-S of the cafe, where i’ve parked many years? How ‘bout me, though I parked farther south this year, who walked to the Hangar Cafe to catch a tram five times in four days? How ‘bout those people just north of there who choose to walk to the Hangar Cafe to get on a tram because they know it’ll probably be full if they try to get on at Vintage? Randy’s got it right.
Mike E

OK, I'm completely worn out from all this walking ! I'm just going to stay home and watch it on tv.
Bob

[FlyingRon]

Randy, you miss the point completely. There are very, very few "unique" riders at the Hangar Café terminal. That throng of humanity was artificially placed here by forcing everyone off.
Thinking 71,000 bodies come daily to ride the tram is, well, one of your better jokes.
I'm sorry, but that is patently untrue. While many people do transfer trams, there are many who board there having originated in the Vintage area.

[Mayhemxpc]

I even got off there (Vintage) rather than being forced off, just to see the vintage area, and later continued south! The transfer point was helpful because I knew I would be able to get on a tram...maybe not the first one, but for sure the one after that.

[skyfixer8]

Once I cross the intersection from vehicle access gate to Vintage, I am going as slow as I can, but as we have no horns and people apparently can t hear the diesel noise, I do call out, "Behind you", "Watch out" , etc, trying to get peoples attention. As the tram cars are wider than the tractor, especially the newer ones, And my head is on a perpetual swivel, I can t see people behind me and the conductor can t see from his spot either. This is even more difficult with the enclosed tractors, lots of blind spots. If the vendors in that area would position further on the grass and people in line would be cautious, brushing would most likely not happen. So Mazda, I feel your pain. if you would like to ride along in the cab to see what is going on, I will enjoy the company.

[Bill Berson]

It might be less confusing if the ultralight loop could be separated about 100 feet further south to avoid confusion with the vintage loop. The point where the two loops intersect with random different stopping headings and drop points unrelated to travel direction is confusing.

[BeagleOne]

Whoever thought of the tram idea deserves a statue. I use them extensively every year. Could horns be installed on the tractors to help clear oblivious people out of the way? Or a snowplow?

This year an older lady fell off the northbound yellow tram at the Hangar Cafe, and injured her elbow. I came upon the situation just after it happened, and there were already two nurses attending to her. I (EMT-P, RN), another RN, another paramedic, and a PA stood by in case we were needed for a few minutes until we were rudely shooed out of the way by a volunteer whose beard and nickname on his vest appeared to indicate that he thinks he is in Lord of the Rings. He was not helpful at all, and was very rude to people passing by, Another tram volunteer, a slim blonde lady, was very helpful and courteous. Not sure what was up with LOTR guy, but his performance was not impressive, especially since the vast majority of people passing by were just trying to get by, and not stopping to gawk.

[Ronald Franck]

I'm sorry, but that is patently untrue. While many people do transfer trams, there are many who board there having originated in the Vintage area.
And that is based on what?
2020 will be my 40th Convention and my 30th year as a volunteer at AirVenture. I'm within 100' of the Hangar Cafe terminal and observe the coming and goings of the Trams pretty much the entire time they are operational. Saying "many who board there are from the Vintage area" can easily be said about any other stop along every tram route.
This whole argument pretty much boils down to efficiency vs. the idea of fairness and the natural tendency to resist change.
If we were trying to be fair to every rider waiting at every stop then we would unload every tram completely at every stop and reload it with those waiting the longest. Tell me it's impractical to do that and you just made my argument for eliminating the unloading and turn-around at the Hangar Cafe terminal.

[BJC]

Have more seating capacity in service (more tractor and tram units, bigger trams, and or more trams per tractor), have clearly designated stops on both sides of the road, run every tram from one end to end of the site (i.e., no transfer stations) and have clearly marked tram roadways to help keep people clear.

Thank you, volunteers and corporate sponsors.


BJC

[FlyingRon]

The trams have changed a number of times (not always for the better, and those changes were reverted). Used to not be a tower terminus. Used to be a terminous by the scholler/hangar B (that was a mess and glad it's gone). The red tram route was changed to a loop so there's not even a north end terminus anymore.

However, I'll have to beg to differ. Your statement about the only thing that happens at the Hangar Cafe terminal is people unload and reload is not supprorted by my observation or others who have posted here. We make use of the fact that you will be guaranteed to get a seat in at least two tram loads at that terminus to head there rather than trying to board in the middle which might not EVER yield any empty seats. Similarly, I'll board at the tower terminal when in the exhibit buildings since I know my chances are better there than waiting for an empty seat at the stops elsewhere.

[Ronald Franck]

I'll board at the tower terminal when in the exhibit buildings since I know my chances are better there than waiting for an empty seat at the stops elsewhere.

Thanks for making my argument for not filling the trams to capacity at each terminus. If you are willing to load where your chances are best so will others. If there are no seats available at the Hangar Cafe on a straight through run people will walk to the Vintage Barn or to the Ultralight area to catch a ride. Unlike the terminus behind the Control Tower nothing branches out from the terminus at the Hangar Cafe. The Blue tram is nothing more than an extension of the Yellow tram with a lot of confusion thrown in. Make the Yellow route a straight run past Ultralights and it will self empty on it's way to the South 40 and move people more efficiently and safely. I don't understand this insistence on being more fair to the "unique" riders at the Hangar Cafe than any other tram stop along the way.
I'm sure we all remember when the buses to the South 40 and the Seaplane Base also terminated at the Hangar Cafe terminus. Somebody evaluated that situation and made the decision to move it further South. It made the situation at the Hangar Cafe terminus immensely less chaotic. It's too bad they didn't make the decision to make the route at the Hangar Cafe a straight run at the same time.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Separating the buses from the tram stop at the Hangar Café was thankfully accomplished by the tram chiefs this year because of how inefficient the buses are at loading and unloading their passengers through that single door up and down those steps. A full tram load can be exchanged in well under 2 minutes. The buses sharing our terminal at mid-point created a nightmare.

It will be interesting to see the results of that extensive university study of the tram service that was conducted this year. Several trams were fitted with GPS/Smartphones into which we logged the passenger occupancy (Full or Has Room) status along the routes, as well as cameras recording crowd levels at various stops and terminals.

[steve]

I've only been attending the event since 2000 so I don't know if this scenario has ever been tried: Create 2 independent tram lines. One runs N-S on Wittman and the other runs N-S on Knapp. This eliminates all tram transfers. Keep the Green line to the Bus Park.

my $.02

[Ronald Franck]

Steve, Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they've ever ran a tram on Wittman Rd. north of the Vintage Barn and I doubt that they ever will. Just too many pedestrians along the route you suggest. I could be wrong but for the most part I think carts and gators are also prohibited from traveling a section of your proposed route as well.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Interesting idea, though it would require EAA to lift the existing bans on vehicle travel on Wittman from the P1 taxiway to Vern Ave. And of course Knapp from the Tower to Vern. Where do you envision the turn-arounds and end points to be then placed for those two separated routes? I'm presuming you'd have no means for folks on the East route to get on the West one beyond hiking?

https://www.eaa.org/-/media/Files/AirVenture/PlanYourTrip/AirVenture2019Map.ashx (https://www.eaa.org/-/media/Files/AirVenture/PlanYourTrip/AirVenture2019Map.ashx)

[Contrailing]

Trams are essential no doubt but considering a reroute perhaps at the perimeter would make it more efficient in not only moving people more quickly across greater distances but also decongesting the main pedestrian thoroughfares. This proposal would likely be challenging to layout unless some "dyed in wool" opinions about years past were put to rest. Its no accident how Airventure became the premier Aviation event it is however fresh input should be encouraged not discounted as "must be your first year" kind of rhetoric. My .02...

[CHICAGORANDY]

The problem area will always be what tram service calls the Yellow route, stage center, with the highest concentration of pedestrians, vendors, mobility scooters, golf carts, service trucks and of course our trams trying to occupy the same space at the same time. It is the nature of the beast we call "Oshkosh".

For this once-a-year event, that lasts only 7 days, and is kept operating by mostly all volunteers in small town America? I'm saying that each year AirVenture is a resounding success.

[krw920]

The problem area will always be what tram service calls the Yellow route, stage center, with the highest concentration of pedestrians, vendors, mobility scooters, golf carts, service trucks and of course our trams trying to occupy the same space at the same time. It is the nature of the beast we call "Oshkosh".

For this once-a-year event, that lasts only 7 days, and is kept operating by mostly all volunteers in small town America? I'm saying that each year AirVenture is a resounding success.

Agree, 100%!

[Bill Berson]

Express trams could use the taxiway.

[martymayes]

I just did a survey on tram service which seemed to focus on whether or not a fee to ride trams could be justified. Not sure if they are trying to discourage tram riding or looking at the possibility of having a commercial transportation company come in a run the trams (high speed tram? lol) or something else.

[FlyingRon]

Express trams could use the taxiway.

Oh, and then what do we do with the aircraft?

The bigger problem is the FAA (and I'm sure the insurers) have strict rules about who can be forward of the burn line and in what circumstance.

[steve]

I completed the tram survey last night. Some thoughts:
1. My group arrived Friday the 19th. That day wasn't on their list of arrival day choices.
2. Every question concerned Monday. They skipped the rest of the week.
3. To steal a line from Caddyshack, "I ain't payin' 50 cents for no coke."

[Bill Berson]

Oh, and then what do we do with the aircraft?

The bigger problem is the FAA (and I'm sure the insurers) have strict rules about who can be forward of the burn line and in what circumstance.

I wouldn't move the trams to the taxiway until the opening day after the airport is full and aircraft are minimal.
The trams would yield to aircraft, of course. And change direction as the runway in use changes. Trams frequently stop for crossing aircraft now. What's the problem?
The lack of unauthorized persons is exactly the point Plenty of security scooters patrolling that area. Cars drive on the taxiway at my local federally funded airport by design (0s9). No other way for cars to access the hangers.
But yes, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the FAA to get any creative or common sense ideas.

[Dave Stadt]

I completed the tram survey last night. Some thoughts:
1. My group arrived Friday the 19th. That day wasn't on their list of arrival day choices.
2. Every question concerned Monday. They skipped the rest of the week.
3. To steal a line from Caddyshack, "I ain't payin' 50 cents for no coke."

My guess is the remote parking idea did not play well.

[Ronald Franck]

I just did a survey on tram service which seemed to focus on whether or not a fee to ride trams could be justified.
Is this survey still open and is it available to any interested party?

[martymayes]

Is this survey still open and is it available to any interested party?

I got it via email

[FlyingRon]

I wouldn't move the trams to the taxiway until the opening day after the airport is full and aircraft are minimal.
There is no such time any time while the NOTAM is in effect.


The trams would yield to aircraft, of course. And change direction as the runway in use changes. Trams frequently stop for crossing aircraft now. What's the problem?

Yielding would mean getting off the taxiway entirely. While the tractor wouldn't have an issue, those trailers aren't the best off-road vehicles especially given the terrain leading up to the taxiway.


The lack of unauthorized persons is exactly the point Plenty of security scooters patrolling that area. Cars drive on the taxiway at my local federally funded airport by design (0s9). No other way for cars to access the hangers.
But yes, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the FAA to get any creative or common sense ideas.
0S9 ain't a tower controlled airport with THE BUSIEST MOVEMENT AREA IN THE WORLD. There are no "security scooters" out there at all. Those are the flight line ops people moving aircraft (in fact, I had to have the REAL SECURITY guys in a the cars run off some "security yahoo" in a scooter I found in our area.

You're not going to get a change to the agreement the airshow and the FAA operate under that those over the line must specifically approved, wearing appropriate safety vests, etc.

[skyfixer8]

Express trams could use the taxiway.

How fast would you envision a John Deere tractor to go to become an express tram ? Tractors have the transmissions locked into low range and the best you can get is 7 mph ( We are not allowed to exceed that even if we could) When driving the "yellow route", with all the people you are constantly dodging, I am lucky to hit 2 mph. I get to take the Make A Wish kids on tour on last Saturday. Part of this is getting them to the VIP / Airshow center tent at end of the day. Even with the Border Patrol and Forest Service agents making way for me, I am crawling at best to get there and people still "have a problem" of moving out of the way.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I accept the tram service as doing the best it can with what it has to serve the most people it can each day. That is subject to the logistical realities of how many trams can be put into service, largely based on how many tram volunteers are available to work that shift, 2 workers per tram plus the finite size of the entire tram fleet allocated to general people moving (special use trams excluded). Once the entire fleet is in service - and yes that was the case often during AirVenture - then we were moving as many passenger-visitors as we could. MANY, MANY folks got to ride vs walking. MANY, MANY didn't. Welcome to Oshkosh, where the primary 'people movers' are comfy shoes. Always has been the case, always will be the case.

[krw920]

I accept the tram service as doing the best it can with what it has to serve the most people it can each day. That is subject to the logistical realities of how many trams can be put into service, largely based on how many tram volunteers are available to work that shift, 2 workers per tram plus the finite size of the entire tram fleet allocated to general people moving (special use trams excluded). Once the entire fleet is in service - and yes that was the case often during AirVenture - then we were moving as many passenger-visitors as we could. MANY, MANY folks got to ride vs walking. MANY, MANY didn't. Welcome to Oshkosh, where the primary 'people movers' are comfy shoes. Always has been the case, always will be the case.

Again, agree with you Randy, 100%!!

[Wrongway Feldman]

'
And You, could be a Pilot, of one of these Today! (https://twitter.com/randsJD/status/1155874711865307137) Click on video to hear audio.

Riesterer & Schnell‏ Get 'em while they're Hot (https://www.rands.com/new-equipment/eaa-gators-compact-tractors/compact-tractors/)

The Official EAA AirVenture Tram Puller

[Bill Berson]

There is no such time any time while the NOTAM is in effect.

Yielding would mean getting off the taxiway entirely. While the tractor wouldn't have an issue, those trailers aren't the best off-road vehicles especially given the terrain leading up to the .....

Maybe 8 feet of the taxiway could be sectioned off with cones for trams or buses. I couldn't find the exact taxiway width, but appears to be about 35 feet wide from measuring the sat view compared 150 feet wide main runway. Large airplanes are not common going to south 40. The tram drivers might need to be pilots with some ability to take instructions from the tower if needed.
Waupun intersects the taxiway. There's a few hard surface turnouts along the taxiway (see sat view), a few more pads could be made if needed. Otherwise, aircraft can drive on the grass as needed.

[Bill Berson]

How fast would you envision a John Deere tractor to go to become an express tram ? Tractors have the transmissions locked into low range and the best you can get is 7 mph ( We are not allowed to exceed that even if we could) When driving the "yellow route", with all the people you are constantly dodging, I am lucky to hit 2 mph. I get to take the Make A Wish kids on tour on last Saturday. Part of this is getting them to the VIP / Airshow center tent at end of the day. Even with the Border Patrol and Forest Service agents making way for me, I am crawling at best to get there and people still "have a problem" of moving out of the way.

Buses are fast. A tram at 7mph on a taxiway is safer and better than 2mph in a crowd.

[FlyingRon]

Maybe 8 feet of the taxiway could be sectioned off with cones for trams or buses. I couldn't find the exact taxiway width, but appears to be about 35 feet wide from measuring the sat view compared 150 feet wide main runway. Large airplanes are not common going to south 40. The tram drivers might need to be pilots with some ability to take instructions from the tower if needed.
Waupun intersects the taxiway. There's a few hard surface turnouts along the taxiway (see sat view), a few more pads could be made if needed. Otherwise, aircraft can drive on the grass as needed.

Even light singles have wingspans approaching 40'. There's no consistent place to "taxi off" in many places and aircraft can't back up (for practical matters neither really can the trams). The "tower" isn't commanding things on Papa (which sounds like the one you want to use) most of the time. It's controlled by Vintage FLO on the south side and Flight Line Safety on the north side. What you suggest is entirely unworkable. It also can't happen at all during the actual airshows.

[Bill Berson]

Then I suppose another express tram option could be a tram road just inside the safety line. At least pedestrians would not have any access to either side of that tram road. A new tram road anywhere else would have inattentive pedestrians on both sides.
I only suggest these ideas because the Airventure plan is always growth and expansion. The tram is largely overloaded now. I frequently walk instead because it is quicker. To make it to various distant events, forums etc. on time, can be a problem.
I suppose a new express tram route on Knapp might be a better option.

[mazdaP5]

Everywhere else in the USA, pedestrians have the right of way. People not moving out of the way isn't the problem, driving through crowds of people is.

[Wrongway Feldman]

Forget those trams and embrace the future Magic Carpet Ride (https://youtu.be/kKtbtiHsDJ8) Remember the Jetsons.
They also told the guy that invented the light bulb he was nuts.

[dougbush]

Is this not the EAA? We should design and build a flying tram to move people from one end of the show grounds to the other!

[FlyingRon]

They might be able in some places make use of the assinine SECURITY road which is where the trams were redirected to during the T-Birds/Blue Angels performance. Of course, that doesn't pass through the show center. Of course during peak times, they can continue the policy of discontinuing the tram service through those few blocks that they did this year right after the airshow finale.

[CHICAGORANDY]

"
they can continue the policy of discontinuing the tram service through those few blocks that they did this year right after the airshow finale."

When EAA security closes off Celebration Way to cross traffic each year for the special evening events, ALL the trams that operate North of there, Yellow, Red and Green, go out of service till the next morning.

[Bill Greenwood]

Trams nor the passengers should not get anywhere near the taxiways used by airplanes, that's a safety feature.

[skyfixer8]

Buses are fast. A tram at 7mph on a taxiway is safer and better than 2mph in a crowd.

Main problem with the buses are they are not friendly to persons with handicaps or older seniors who have trouble with the steep stairs. I have only seen one small handicap Kobusson running around and she is not usually anywhere near where people want to go.

[psvinny]

Main problem with the buses are they are not friendly to persons with handicaps or older seniors who have trouble with the steep stairs. I have only seen one small handicap Kobusson running around and she is not usually anywhere near where people want to go.
I noticed that in camp Scholler. We were so far back this year that I had to rely on the bus service and I am afraid to admit that I cannot negotiate the steps on the bus very good anymore. Fortunately I was picked up several times by wonderful EAA'ers with golf carts that just saw me sitting waiting for a bus.

[CHICAGORANDY]

Commercial buses - especially those with kneeling front suspensions -are a good source of transportation for the general public over any distance on good roads. School buses are great fror transporting large numbers of nimble youths to their various destinations. Neither offer the 'rapid' unloading/loading of passengers that high volumes of short distance shuttling demands.

Our tractor pulled single and tandem benched carts seem a reasonable compromise. I am not savvy enough to design a system that would be 'better' for navigating amid AirVenture's heavy pedestrian volumes while sharing its limited paved surfaces during an event of such short duration.

[Bill Berson]

By "tandem" do you mean a "double" trailer? Or even triple trailers like semis do.
That would increase the passenger numbers since pedestrians get out of the way and stay out longer.
On the other hand, a more frequent tram with fewer seats has advantages. This is beyond me also.

[FlyingRon]

"
they can continue the policy of discontinuing the tram service through those few blocks that they did this year right after the airshow finale."

When EAA security closes off Celebration Way to cross traffic each year for the special evening events, ALL the trams that operate North of there, Yellow, Red and Green, go out of service till the next morning.


Frankly, I'd be happy if they ran the Red tram to the tower and started the Yellow tram down by the Scholler-gate/ Exhibit building area and make people walk the four blocks in between.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I hear what you're saying Ron, but the issue is we can't leave any trams stranded north of Celebration Way. Volunteers are waiting for all the units for washing and fueling chores. Tram service actually only shuts down a half-hour early for those evening events as it is. We always shut down by 8:00 pm every day.

[glider90]

We almost had enough rain for it to happen this year, but on hot years I have always dreamed of a lazy river type canal you cold grab an tube and float down. The tire companies could provide the tubes as advertising...

[Ronald Franck]

I can do without the evening airshows. It's all a little too much anyway. Back in the day you had to be directly associated with aviation in some way to access the flightline. You felt some assurance that your personal airplane wasn't going to be treated like a factory demonstrator and convention goes wouldn't be lighting up under your wing. Today, there is no way I'd be bring my airplane to the convention and parking it anywhere near show central. It's just my opinion that one reason that EAA opened up the flightline to every Tom, Dick and Hairy (dogs) was in the interest in generating revenue. Their three ring circus is getting out of control and I think Paul was starting to realize that in the end. I like that they have KidVenture and the drive in theater in the evening but honestly, the evening airshow bores me to death. And for my final complaint, and then I'll shut up, I could go an entire convention without the Shell Aero Team and be perfectly happy. Give the Convention back to the Builders.

[Contrailing]

I'll second that Ron about the Shell Aero Team! T-6 prop noise is serious noise pollution. Warbird? Na... it's just a trainer!

[Dave Stadt]

I can do without the evening airshows. It's all a little too much anyway. Back in the day you had to be directly associated with aviation in some way to access the flightline. You felt some assurance that your personal airplane wasn't going to be treated like a factory demonstrator and convention goes wouldn't be lighting up under your wing. Today, there is no way I'd be bring my airplane to the convention and parking it anywhere near show central. It's just my opinion that one reason that EAA opened up the flightline to every Tom, Dick and Hairy (dogs) was in the interest in generating revenue. Their three ring circus is getting out of control and I think Paul was starting to realize that in the end. I like that they have KidVenture and the drive in theater in the evening but honestly, the evening airshow bores me to death. And for my final complaint, and then I'll shut up, I could go an entire convention without the Shell Aero Team and be perfectly happy. Give the Convention back to the Builders.

There is no KidVenture in the evening. KidVenture closes at 3:30pm.

[CHICAGORANDY]

I'm guessing Ron meant the "Fun Fly Zone" - a name not in common parlance, since everyone I've run into asks about Ultralights. lol

On my strongly disliked list would be those Aero Shell needless noise makers, the dopey Yak 110, and thankfully missing this year was the Imodium Links Jet assisted biplane.

[mazdaP5]

I'm guessing Ron meant the "Fun Fly Zone" - a name not in common parlance, since everyone I've run into asks about Ultralights. lol

On my strongly disliked list would be those Aero Shell needless noise makers, the dopey Yak 110, and thankfully missing this year was the Imodium Links Jet assisted biplane.

Sasquatch must not bother you that much. Not only was it around, it flew a dual act with the Yak 110, featuring jet truck!

[CHICAGORANDY]

At some point, annoying too loud noise is just annoying too loud noise. I twist in the Howard Leights snuggly and don't bother to look to see what is creating the nuisance.

[Ronald Franck]

There is no KidVenture in the evening. KidVenture closes at 3:30pm.

Sorry Dave, I probably could have worded my composition a little more clearly. What I meant to convey was:
I like some things EAA has done during AirVenture like sponsoring KidVenture which gives young folks the opportunity to become more engaged with the convention.
I also like that whole families can enjoy an evening together at the Drive-In Theater.
I would skip the evening airshows and the fire-breathing Jet truck and save the fireworks for Saturday night as a Grand Finale to AirVenture.
Lastly, I'd move the STOL competition from the Fun Fly Zone to Show Central so that more people can have a front row seat and actually view what's going on.
But, that said, I doubt I'll see any changes to the evening airshow because now that cat has been let out of the bag it ain't ever going back in. :(

[FlyingRon]

The Shockwave truck is the next to the dumbest thing I've seen at Airventure. The stupid-assed mustang cars vs. airplane act was (and they almost wiped out a taxiing 172 when they decided to launch a few minutes too early for one of their practices). This is an AIR show.

A jet powered portable toilet would be more appropriate :)

[CHICAGORANDY]

"A jet powered portable toilet would be more appropriate"

OK, now I'd pay to watch a guy get launched in a Rocket-Potty. Maybe trailing a stream of TP and a pleasant blue mist? Cool Beanz!

In retrospect, I guess we have driven this tram thread off the cliff? - lol

[FlyingRon]

Apparently, it's been done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMGuueWe7xY

[PaulDow]

Here’s what we need
https://wdwnt.com/2019/09/review-the-disney-skyliner-gondola-system-is-a-really-fun-and-terribly-frightening-new-way-to-get-around-walt-disney-world/

[Floatsflyer]

Nah, those Disney Gondolas would never work. The line ups would be so long waiting to get on each car that holds just a few people. Stop start stop start stop start......For a real quick and efficient people moving system we need moving sidewalks(with hand rails 'cause we're all old).

[robert l]

Nah, those Disney Gondolas would never work. The line ups would be so long waiting to get on each car that holds just a few people. Stop start stop start stop start......For a real quick and efficient people moving system we need moving sidewalks(with hand rails 'cause we're all old).
But you have to be able to get on and off without it stopping ! I'll be 73 in 3 days but I'm still as nimble as a cat, an old cat that is !
Bob

[Floatsflyer]

But you have to be able to get on and off without it stopping !

No problem. Easy peasy. They are designed and built in sections with 15-20 feet between them just like they are at international airports. Easy on, easy off!

[Contrailing]

Conflicting interest going forward. You want to draw 7-10 year-olds into this airplane thing that we enjoy? Keep the jet truck. Want to cater to the geezer, (I'm one of them) ditch the fire breathing truck. Really this discussion is about the direction of Airventure. What would Paul say?